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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well I think the areas of expertise are clear here---British rust is world-renowned for its quality, and a Chrysler 440 wedge will suck gas faster than a whale eats krill...

    Ever see those British restoration magazines?...they cut out and replace rotten rocker panels like we replace wiper blades...I bet there's a "Jiffy Rocker" in London somewhere...

    I think the Jensen is worth a look to see how bad the rust actually is. Best way to check is looking to see if the rust has penetrated from the rocker ends to the wheel well area...also check the door fit (the "shut lines" as the Brits say) for sagging body warnings. You'd also want to look INSIDE the door panels, and also peel up the carpeting where the A Pillar welds to the floor, (the pillar holding the door hinges).

    If it's just some surface rust or a few pin holes, I'd bondo them up and terrorize the neighborhood for a few months. Could be a fun ride and the car is a great "gentleman's express" for freeway driving with the AC on between frequent gas station stops. (this is not a car worth restoring with a top dollar potential of maybe $12,500 in the USA).

    If it were a drop top however...it still probably isn't worth restoring in the US. A mustang convertible would be worth more by half again.

    I'd like to have it for a while. I'm getting toward the age where I have to make frequent gas station stops anyway.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Thought some of you might find it interesting.

    I dont speak german but judging by the couple of words I can pick out and the pictures the rebuild was a sucess.

    Merc V12
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Wow, that was one dirty abused looking old engine. Looks like something out of a battleship or a u-boat.

    Looked nice at the end though, labor of love. Crazy Germans, restoring W140s already.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah thats what I thought too. Just scrolling through the pictures was very cool even if I could only read two or three words per page.

    Back in HS I knew a guy who had restored a couple of V12 Jag engines. He was so talented that I swear he could repair lesser cars just by walking by.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    Wow, pretty amazing. Imagine how good you have to be to be able to properly take apart and rebuild a V12 engine like that.

    It's like brain surgery but on a car.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    It's a gift to be that talented. I'd give my right...well, maybe not, but I'd love to be able to do such complex work.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Our shop foreman is like that. I swear he can just touch the hood of a car and diagnois a problem. He is one of the top three Land Rover techs in North America.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    So he has lots of experience diagnosing problems! Talk about job security...

    And speaking of project cars, these are classy old beasts
  • lilelvislilelvis Member Posts: 82
    Hopefully this on topic. I was just wondering, what cars would you get if time, space, and maybe even embarrasment (for those cars you don't like to admit you like) were not an issue? I am really thinking not so much "money is no issue" but more "space is no issue" - i.e. you saw it on craigslist and bought it because you always thought they were cool and happen to have a 6 car garage/shop. For me, in no particular order:

    '66 Mustang coupe
    88-90 FJ62 Landcruiser
    '93-97 FJ 80 Landcruiser
    W124 MBZ (any - 300, 300D, Wagon, 400)
    Volkswagen Bus camper
    '93-95 Ranger Rover LWB
    Jeep Grand Wagoneer or Cherokee Chief

    I'm not ashamed of my desire for the first four. There's something about the last three I always liked regardless how crappy they were.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    imageI just like the pics
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    The picture is not showing. I like the Continental in the post before, and it would be cool to have one in convertible.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I am really thinking not so much "money is no issue" but more "space is no issue" - i.e. you saw it on craigslist and bought it because you always thought they were cool and happen to have a 6 car garage/shop.

    Well, I have a fetish for big 70's cars, so there's not too much that embarasses me. Heck, I paid $28,000 to have a 4-car garage built, and then parked a $900 Chrysler in it. I suppose there's irony in there, somewhere. :P

    I always liked those old-style, throwback Wagoneers. My uncle had a 1976 Jeep Honcho (I think that was its name) pickup that was based on the same platform. It seemed like it was more farm machinery than automobile, but damn it was tough. As I recall the cab and front clip were pretty solid, but the bed was shot. I forget how we did it, but somehow between my uncle and me, we managed to get that bed off the truck, and then he built a homemade bed out of plywood. We put the old bed back on top of it, and hauled it to the dump.

    It was an ugly looking thing, but still had a charm to it.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    That is a crazy amount of work. Wish I knew more of what was going on there, but something very bad happened inside one of those chambers (i think it was on page 3 that showed the chunk out of one of the pistons and the resultant scoring on the wall).

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    yikes. i can never answer this question. I like so many vehicles that I'd wind up buying whatever first grabs my attention when I finally have the space to fill up.

    I guess my steady favorites have been late 50s, early 60s t-birds and a cobra (would have to be a kit). I'm not sure anything else I'd want would be considered a "blue-collar project."

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Someone on another forum who speaks german just did a quick sum up of what happend.

    Some inexperienced tech left a couple of screws loose on a distrubtor which some how caused a severely rich condition in the engine. The Super rich fuel mixture thined the oil between the cylinder wall and piston which cooked the motor.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh he must mean the FUEL distributor on that Bosch system....yep, if it restricts movement in there, that could happen.

    I'd imagine that once you stripped off all the accessories, inside an engine is still an engine...still, with all the labor involved, you'd have to guess that this is a $20,000 job here in America at least. Maybe more. A Ferrari V-12 rebuilt can run $35,000 and if it were a brand new Ferrari V-12, about $60,000 would not be unheard of. Well you'd just ship in a crate engine, I don't think a shop would attempt it.

    Did they really rebuild that V-12 or are they exchanging it?
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Ah ok so a little problem with the translation then. I was trying to figure out how the distributor could cause a problem like that but if it was a fuel distributor that makes more sense.

    I think he is rebuilding it but I am not a 100% sure. He did tear it down a good bit but maybe he just used parts of the old engine on the new engine.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm not sure what make model of car it came out of, but on most luxury liners that are 5-10 years old, a V-12 engine disaster pretty much totals the car.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    It is a W-140 so uhh is that S600 from the mid 90s?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Okay, that's probably a total then, definitely. Time for the wrecker unless you want to pay more for the V-12 repair than your car is worth. I'm sure you could find a mint S600 for way less than the cost of that rebuild. Probably TWO of them!
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    It is in germany though so who knows what it is like over there.

    I figure labor would have to be more expensive and cars probably also more expensive but who knows.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I have to wonder if the job was some kind of project or hobby and not a real shop job. The cars are actually worth less there than here, IIRC. I know nice W140s aren't expensive in England anyway...I think many of the ones in Germany have been shipped off to Russia.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Oh man that poor merc.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    You know it is a bad color when you can't even describe said color. Uh, fleshy, peachy-pink, uh......just ugly.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Poorly cooked salmon???
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    On my monitor it looks kinda like a burnt orange. It really doesn't gross me out, but I don't think it works well on that car. But come to think of it, I can't think of any car it WOULD work on!
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    burnt orange is what nissan called the color on the 350z, but that merc is a bit lighter, i think. More of a faded basketball. The burnt orange on the Z looks great, IMHO.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    I cringed when I got to the photos of the cylinder walls on that V-12. Oh, man, it would have been painful to listen to that poor engine die. :cry:

    For anyone who did not get a chance to see it, here's just one photo in particular that shows it well.

    link title

    oops... sorry, meant to hit link, not photo.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    Poorly cooked salmon???

    How about "freezer-burnt salmon?" :P Ick. Not as bad as the pink Toyota, though. ;)
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah that is about what it looks like on my monitor.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Looks like oil starvation.
  • fortee9erfortee9er Member Posts: 134
    Does anyone on this forum have hands-on experince with Mercedes 450SEL 6.9? I have always heard that these cars are very complex and will ruin you financially. Is this true for those who use repair shops or does it apply to people who do their own work and shop for the best price in parts?
    There are a couple og 6.9's for sale in my area at an attractive price and was wondering if I should bother and take a look at them.
    Thanks
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Ugh! I've seen autopsy photos that didn't make me cringe as much!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    ANY Mercedes will ruin you financially but a 6.9 will suck your wallet dry!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Indeed....engine rebuild on one of those will be 10-15K I am sure, and then there are all the other hilariously complicated bits. Keep it as a labor of love, or keep going when the minor things act up...because it will break the bank to keep 100%. There's no upside to any MB sedan, so you have to love the car itself to justify it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There's really no point to owning one. They aren't worth anything and a more modern Benz will perform almost as well with far fewer headaches.

    They are just money pits with no upside. They aren't particularly beautiful, very few people even care to notice one, you can't show it, you can't race it, you can't put the top down and you can't sell it to anyone else.

    If you MUST have an old Benz V-8, by all means save up and buy a 1970-71 3.5 coupe, or even a 300SEL 6.3 (also a money pit but more fun at least and more bragging rights and more valuable).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    A 6.3 will likely retain more value over time too, as they will always be worth something to somebody. I think 6.9s might still be depreciating.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    I thought this was interesting.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    That's some crazy stuff...I don't think I've put that much work into all my cars combined over the years.

    The guy links to other insane repair logs on other diesels he has too...some people are just drawn to those cars, and they get in deep, and seem to love it.
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I think I know what most of you will say about this one:
    Jag

    Worth restoring?:

    Cobra

    It seems like this guy just buys wrecks and re-sells them (I think this M3 has been rolled, looks more of a partsd car than anything):
    M3

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    On that Jag. Well I find it interesting there is no mention of the transmission when he goes into some detail about the engine. Pictures aren't worth squat as I can't tell if the body work he did involves Bondo, or if that's just the primer.

    (in reference to all the other parts being boxed up) One has to hope so, because all the chrome bits and trim items that are missing will add up $$$ quickly.

    If I had space in the garage for it, I could see maybe a $1,000 for it and I'd be interested, but I'm a bit of a sucker for Jags....so I'm already prepared to not make money off of 'em :P
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I never understood these cars:

    Stutz

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    yeah, those Stutzes are pretty garish. One year they had a whole bunch of them at the GM Nationals in Carlisle. I guess they have their audience, though!

    According to the VIN, that thing started life as a 1979 Pontiac 4-door sedan. I would imagine it was a 1979 Bonneville. The "N" is the code for the model, but I don't know their codes. The "R" is the engine code, but again I dunno what it means. Looks like an Olds V-8 though, so it's most likely a 350 or 403.

    There was also a Stutz coupe of that timeframe, which I think was based on the downsized Eldo/Toro/Riv. I think earlier models of the coupe were based on the Grand Prix.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,736
    well, the cobra wouldn't be a "restoration" job since its a kit that just hasn't been completed. I like how he threw some junkyard wheels and tires on there just to roll it around. I'd be concerned if the car hasn't been built and stored inside the whole time. I'd also want to know when he started building it.

    In any case, you have to want what he did to it. IMHO, the purpose of a kit is to build the car the way you want. If the engine and tranny aren't what you want or the suspension isn't just how you'd like, then its almost pointless to buy that for the same price you could get the kit for.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Incomplete kits like that are almost valueless. Do you really want an engine with that kind of power in a chassis that light when you don't know how good a welder the guy was? If I am going to drive a kit, I will build it myself, thank you very much.

    Seen too many dangerous short cuts taken when the builder starts getting tired of the project.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You can buy an entire starter kit for a Cobra replica for $12,000, brand new.

    JAG: Worthless car, worthless project, great engine. I agree, I'd offer $1,000 for the engine and transmission if they are both rebuilt, definitely, throw the car away and put the driveline into a totally clean mint 1986 XJ6 that needed an engine and/or transmission.

    If you did all that, you'd actually break even on both cars!!

    Early XJ6s are the worst. One should shun them like the plague. They might be a candidate for "worst car in the world" at least mechanically/engineering wise. Who else could build the same car that badly for 20 years?

    MB DIESELS: I understand the appeal (I've had a few) but there comes a point when devotion becomes madness. The most devoted marque-lovers I know are MG TC worshippers, who will restore the most horrendous basket cases imaginable, taking years and years to do it. A wrecked, mangled, rotted, junked TC is never lost, no matter how bad it is, someone will take it on. Also folly of a sort but here at least you have a much loved automobile that is very significant historically, and while not worth the cost of a major restoration (you can buy clean drivers that are very presentable for $20,000 and a Pebble Beach car for $35,000), at least you've done something worthwhile to history. But an old diesel sedan--while it deserves a shot at a new life, has to be weighed against the fact that these are commonplace cars that will never be worth very much.

    Everyone's entitled to be crazy, don't get me wrong, but at least admit that one's a fool to spend $25,000 restoring a $2,500 car. Sometimes a charming devotee is really just a victim of his own bad judgement.

    I wonder what will happen to these old diesels once the next generation hits the USA---with no noise, no smoke, able to burn biodiesel, and plenty of power?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I'm looking forward to the day when a gas price spike no longer brings the old 240/300Ds out of hiding, smoking up the roads and filling my car with their exhaust - guess it says good things about their longevity, but I hate following 'em.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Haha I agree with that sentiment.

    The gas prices also make it so my local market is clogged with dreamers wanting 7-10K++ for their 250K mile W123s, especially wagons.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Hey, pimps need cars too.

    I once saw a Stutz out the biannual auction at the Tradex in Abbotsford that had a clock in the steering wheel hub!
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