Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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Comments

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    My old car book doesn't list torque figures, but surfing around online, I've seen figures quoting a range from 350 to 550 foot pounds, depending on the year. The 550 was probably for the earlier engines, up through 1971. In 1972, torque ratings took a hit in the gross-net conversion as well, but not as seriously as horsepower.

    I also found the results from an old comparison that MT or C&D did in 1976, where they pitted an LTD with the 460 against a Gran Fury with a 400 big block and a Caprice with a 400 smallblock. The LTD was the quickest in 0-60, at 11.3 seconds. The Plymouth came in at 12.2 and the Caprice at 12.8. But then, in the quarter mile, the Caprice clocked in at the quickest, 17.6 seconds. The Gran Fury and LTD tied for 18.2.

    Kinda interesting that the LTD came off that much quicker than the Caprice initially, but then the Caprice would catch up and end up beating it in the quarter mile. I guess the LTD would just run out of breath, while the Caprice was a slow starter, but just happier in the higher revs?

    They were also putting ridiculously tall axle ratios in the cars by this time, too, which I'm sure held them back. They were probably around 2.41:1 for the Caprice, 2.45:1 for the Plymouth, and 2.50:1 for the Ford. I dunno if they were doing similar things in trucks though, since a truck would be more likely to get put to serious work, rather than just hauling one or two people around.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Good truck engines often make lousy car engines, like GMs 348 and 409. But sometimes good car engines can make acceptable truck engines, like Buick's Lay-Z-Boy V-8 into Range Rovers or the Dodge V-10.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,955
    i found a site that quoted 500 ft/lbs, so close enough.
    ford engines are usually configured to make their torque at lower rpms, so that kind of lines up with your post about the big sedan accelleration numbers.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    can one little loose vacuum hose wreak on a 1979 New Yorker? Mine had refused to start for about a month and a half, and finally got to the point that the battery drained down. I charged it up, but it still wouldn't fire up.

    Today, I finally got around to changing spark plugs on the car. And for good measure, change the ignition coil. Then, as I was putting the air cleaner back on the car, I noticed a loose hose. I couldn't figure out where it went, so I used my 5th Ave as a reference point. I knew having two of these things around would come in handy! :P It just came from one part of the air cleaner assembly, and hooked into another part of it, right behind the carburetor.

    After doing all that, the car fired right up. So I don't know if it was the spark plugs, new ignition coil, or the vacuum hose that did it.

    I was so psyched up that I drove the car around the neighborhood, came back home, and washed it. And then, just to keep me from being too proud of myself,it refused to start back up when I wanted to move it! It was back to its old tricks of starting up fine the first time, but then getting iffy with subsequent starts.

    I did go out about an hour later though, and it fired right up. Still, I'm thinking of just giving in and taking it to the mechanic. I've done about everything I can do under the hood. Replaced the cap, rotor, spark plugs, coil, and fuel filter. I have a feeling that any further digging I try with it would probably do more harm than good!
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Sounds like a weak fuel pump to me.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    Hmm, I didn't even think of the fuel pump. Actually, something like that wouldn't be too hard to get to, would it? I know it's in front of the engine, sort of under the alternator. I'm guessing it would just be two bolts and two hoses, and it comes right off?

    I was just inclined to think that it was something causing a weak spark, like the coil or spark plugs or something, and that was letting it flood.

    Would a weak fuel pump allow it to flood?
  • steven922steven922 Member Posts: 49
    Runs fine, but wont shift, stop, or turn off, oh yea, the radio dosen't work either.
    He trust's his mechanic, he's the best in town, but this guy has no idea how much it is to fix all this stuff. Thats hard to believe.

    http://southbend.craigslist.org/car/618357265.html
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    I especially like the way he phrased it..."I don't know how much it will cost you to fix it." Is that an attempt at a subliminal suggestion there? :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    My 1979 Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight Regency was like that. It had difficulty starting in the morning, so I'd open the hood and spray some carb/choke cleaner into the carbuerator
    barrel and it would fire right up.

    Getting tired of this ritual, I replaced the fuel pump, and it started up perfectly from then on.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Mercedes 240D: Yeah I have a "near mint" leather jacket except it's torn in the front.

    And the bad shifting must be a vacuum line that costs .25 cents. It couldn't possibly be a bad vacuum pump or transmission governor. Whatever it is, that vacuum line was too difficult for my mechanic to replace. He never said anything at all about needing $2,000 in repairs. No really. The subject never came up.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    Hmm, maybe for kicks I will try replacing the fuel pump. They can't be more than what? 20 bucks? Now that I think back on it, I did have to get the fuel pump replaced on my '79 5th Ave soon after I bought it, although that's been long enough ago that I can't remember what kind of symptoms it was showing. I do remember being able to get it to the mechanic under its own power, though.

    My NYer started up just fine this morning, and I drove it about 8 miles. Then, about 20 mins after I got back home, I tried it again and it fired right up. But a couple hours later I tried it, and it refused, so it's still messing with my mind!

    Oh well, at least it's back to the point where it starts sometimes. I was really getting concerned when it refused to fire up for about a month and a half. So if nothing else, if I end up giving up on it, I can get it to the mechanic under its own power.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,647
    A 240D with leather? It's possible, but not probable.
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    Oh, yeah, those cassette players really sound bad without an antenna. :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    I'm back to looking at these things again on eBay. I guess that means it's time to pull my '76 coupe out of the garage, drive it around a bit, and get it out of my system.

    This one doesn't look too bad in pics, but I have a feeling it wouldn't look as good up close. I like the color, but don't care for that odd half-vinyl roof. I'd also be tempted to lose the rear skirts, although I guess then I'd have to hunt down some wheel well trim to make the car look complete.
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    Yeah, get out your coupe and take it for a drive. Do you really want two of these (I realize this one's a sedan)? One not-too-encouraging sign: his starting bid is $2,500, meaning his expected selling price is way too high.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    It's got a different grill than either of the two sets that you have for you car... and a headlight out. I think the coupe version is far more attractive. :shades:

    james
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,159
    Isn't that price about 2X what a clean 4-door with that odd roof should go for?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    It's got a different grill than either of the two sets that you have for you car... and a headlight out. I think the coupe version is far more attractive.

    Yeah, they had different grille inserts to differentiate the LeMans from the Grand LeMans in '76, and then they changed them both in '77. They also did that in 1975. I can't remember though, if they continued this habit in '78-81.

    This eBay '76 is wearing the correct Grand LeMans inserts, which is what mine should have, in order to be correct. However, I discovered that while the inserts are all the same shape, the places where they bolt on are different. The '76 Grand LeMans inserts bolt up one way, while the '76 LeMans and '77 LeMans/Grand LeMans bolt up a different way. It's not all four bolts that are different though, but I can't remember if it's the upper or lower that they changed.

    When I had first bought my coupe, I figured that one of the inserts had just gotten broken, and they were replaced by whatever one of the previous owners was able to find. But then when I found out the '76 Grand LeMans header panel was a bit different to accommodate the bolts, and other little details such as the stand up hood ornament and a couple of "Grand LeMans" badges that mine is missing, I surmised that my car had probably been in minor collision at some point in its life.

    And yeah, I agree, the coupe is a lot more attractive, but for some reason the sedan still appeals to me, too!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,647
    You should get a sedan and make the Buford T. Justice police car.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    You should get a sedan and make the Buford T. Justice police car.

    Well, this duo is back on eBay, so maybe I could use the sedan for that? For some reason, I always hated that style hupcap, that those are what Buford's car had.

    Hmm, I see dude lowered his buy it now price a tad. First time around, I think it was $6500, but now it's "only" $6150. Still way too high, I'm sure.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Here's another Can-Am for you. The owner must be delusional.

    1977 Can-Am

    james
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,647
    Offer him half
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,438
    At least fix the 1/4 before going for all the money on Earth
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    About $5,000 is all the money, AND it's unsmoggable besides.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    Which one's not smoggable? The one I posted, where you get one PHS documented rustbucket and a sedan to go with it? Or the other one, with the 1973 400 and the big dent in the rear quarter?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    The '77 Canned Ham isn't smoggable.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,159
    The Canned Ham's not smoggable, and not original, either, so it's also a turkey. :P
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    or lack thereof, really be a big deal for someone like me though? In my case, it's not like it would be a daily driver. I'd just buy it, slap historic tags on it, and probably only drive it to shows or on nice days.

    And how do people get by with stuffing 351W's into Focuses and 426 Hemis into PT Cruisers, and still have them streetable?

    I'm not sure about other states, but Maryland has a "Street Rod" classification, where if you have a heavily modified older car, you can get special plates for it.

    "Canned Ham"...lol, I've never heard that one before. Cute. :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I just made that up. Be sure to append the appropriate attribution when citing this clever bon mot. :P

    Well "smoggable" is a market factor, not a local one---if you sell a non-smoggable car, you limit your market to those states that don't have smog laws.

    Fer instance, if you own a Ferrari 308 with carbs instead of fuel injection, you can forget about selling it in California, which is a big market for these cars. So that hurts.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I just made that up. Be sure to append the appropriate attribution when citing this clever bon mot. :P

    Well "smoggable" is a market factor, not a local one---if you sell a non-smoggable car, you limit your market to those states that don't have smog laws.

    Fer instance, if you own a Ferrari 308 with carbs instead of fuel injection, you can forget about selling it in California, which is a big market for these cars. So that hurts.

    I think it's also interesting that restorers are putting on the smog equipment if the car was so equipped.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    Okay, so if I accidentally let "Canned Ham" slip out of my mouth at the Carlisle GM Nationals this year, I'll make sure to let people know where it came from. :P
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    that Polara needs 290HP just to get it moving. It's like driving a building.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    When I was in college back in the 1980s, I had a dorm-mate who had a red 1968 Dodge Polara convertible with a black top and interior. Some idiot drunk driver ran into it head on when it was parked and destroyed it.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    I had a '67 Newport 2-door hardtop for a few months back in 1999. Same basic car as that Polara, although that year I think the 383-2bbl only had something like 270-275 hp. It was adequate. Nothing special, but not a rolling roadblock, either. It would be quicker than an Impala with a 283/307, maybe about on par with the 2-bbl 327. My '67 Catalina, with its 400-4bbl, would walk it like a dog though. Maybe the 2-bbl would've been close, though?

    I really didn't care for the style of it that much. I like the '65-66 Chrysler and Dodge C-bodies, but just thought the '67-68 styles were too heavy-handed and kinda clunky. Now the Plymouth Fury, I thought that was a good looking car all four years. I prefer the '65-66, but I think the '67-68 still wear that heavy restyle pretty well.

    One thing I remember about it too, is that for as big as it was, that Newport didn't seem all that roomy inside. One reason I usually preferred Chrysler products is that, model for model, they were usually roomier inside than their Ford or GM counterparts. But with this one, I swear my Catalina felt like it had more room, both interior and trunk space. This, despite the Pontiac being a convertible and the Newport being a hardtop.

    I think the 4-door versions of these cars were pretty cavernous inside, but my coupe just wasn't that big. Oh, it would seat 6 people better than any non-limousine sedan built today, but then so would my Catalina.
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    I see that the Polara has the period-correct, perforated vinyl steering-wheel wrap... in color-coordinated blue, no less! Groovy! :shades:

    james
  • 210delray210delray Member Posts: 4,721
    It's obvious those old hard-plastic steering wheel rims don't hold up over the long haul. I suppose the combination of sun and sweat does them in after 40 years or so.

    Of course, those hideous vinyl-topped roofs on hardtops and sedans had a much shorter lifespan.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    There are people who will restore those plastic wheels to perfect, and they do a fantastic job, but it ain't cheap.

    Oh I think the Polara, once it got moving, as with a small planet or large asteroid, would continue to move along very nicely in a pre-appointed and steady orbit. I always thought the combo of the 383 and the Torqueflite 8 transmission were about as bullet proof as you could get, presuming you did NOT slam it into reverse, at which point you have (congratulations) just broken your reverse servo in half.

    They did suck gas, though, in city driving. You could hit 8 mpg all day long. Hwy mileage was tolerable for the time at least, probably as good as a brand new Chevy Suburban---about 15 mpg was all you were gonna get.

    I had (shared) a Chrysler Newport 383 and we could hardly ever get the wheels to spin. But 4 people tried to kill that car and couldn't. It was like trying to bring down a woolly mammoth with wooden spears. It's probably still running out there, somewhere. We even took it off road on occasion, in Colorado.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    It's obvious those old hard-plastic steering wheel rims don't hold up over the long haul. I suppose the combination of sun and sweat does them in after 40 years or so.

    Just on Sunday, I noticed that the steering wheel on my '68 Dart is starting to flake apart. I moved that car from where it had been sitting on the grass, to the driveway, so it wouldn't look so derelict, and that's when I noticed the steering wheel felt kind of greasy, and appeared to be peeling apart, almost like sunburned skin.'

    Still, after 40 years of sitting out in the weather, I guess it's to be expected. I wonder how newer steering wheels hold up in comparison? My Intrepid's steering wheel actually started to deteriorate after about 2 1/2 years! It's made out of this padded rubbery stuff, and the natural oils in my hands started to break it down.

    My '85 Silverado's steering wheel is padded as well, but it feels like it's rubbery all the way through, whereas the Intrepid's steering wheel seems like the rubbery part is just a veneer, waiting to peel away. A friend of mine had the same thing happen to one of his cars awhile back, but I can't remember which one it was now. I wonder if that's a common occurrence with newer cars?
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Does the Dart move under its own power?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    Does the Dart move under its own power?

    Nah, unfortunately it hasn't moved under its own power in at least 6 years. :sick: I think the fuel pump went bad on it. It would turn over and would fire up if you dumped gas down in the carb, but then would stall once that burned off. At that time, I didn't have the time or money to mess with it, but looking back I wish I had. 6 years of sitting hasn't been kind to that car.

    To move it, I chained it up to my pickup truck and then pulled it up to the entrance to my driveway by the road. Put it in park, unhooked it, hopped behind the wheel, and let it roll downhill till I got it where I wanted it on the driveway.

    A kid came out on Saturday, and expressed an interest in the car. I told him to make me an offer, but I was also brutally honest about everything that was wrong with it. Still, he seemed interested. He said he drives down my street fairly regularly. I just hope he doesn't see that the car is in a different spot in the yard, and get his hopes up thinking that it moved under its own power! You can see it off to the side in this picture. I ended up moving it to roughly where the blue NYer is parked in this pic. There are some closer shots of it here. Enter at your own risk; it's actually kinda sad. :sick:

    It would probably still be good as a parts car. And it has an 8 3/4 rear end, which has got to be worth something. And I have some old Dart GT bucket seats that I'd throw in if I sold it.

    It was kinda cool, seeing it in motion from the rearview mirror of my truck. Even if it wasn't under its own power.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    I think those fancy leather-wrapped wheels will have the shortest life expectancy of all. I had a 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS with a dark blue leather-wrapped wheel. One very hot day, I gripped the wheel and a gooey material that smelled like peanut butter was on my hand. Apparently, the sun caused the interior to get so hot, the adhesive holding the leather to the wheel melted and was oozing from the stitching. Over time, the leather became discolored and misshapen where I gripped the wheel. I had tried several things to reverse the deterioration/discoloration to no avail. I even use a blue shoe polish to restore the original look of the wheel.

    I thought those "hard plastic" wheels were actually hardened rubber?
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,438
    After all this time, have you considered letting the Dart go to the kid? If it's his big thing, maybe it would get back into shape fast as you watch proudly from a distance?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    After all this time, have you considered letting the Dart go to the kid? If it's his big thing, maybe it would get back into shape fast as you watch proudly from a distance?

    Yeah, definitely. I don't want to turn into one of those grumpy old men who hangs onto something swearing I'll get to it "one day", while it just rots into the ground! I really hadn't thought about how much I'd want for it. At one time, I thought about asking $900-1000 and seeing what kind of counteroffers I got. But that was a couple years ago, and it's only gotten worse since then.

    The kid (and I probably shouldn't call him that, as he's probably in his early 20's, but maybe that's a sign I'm getting up there :P ) said that he'd worked on a few Japanese cars of "his" generation, but had gotten bored with those types of cars, and wanted to try something older. Oh, and Lemko would like this...he pulled up in a mid 90's or so Cadillac Seville! It was black, and pimped up somewhat with some chrome on the roof pillars, tinted windows, and blingy rims. But at least no carriage roof!

    Once this kid saw the Dart up close, it probably did scare him away and he just didn't want to say anything to hurt my feelings. But who knows? Maybe he'll come back?

    I was thinking about trying to put it on Craigslist this summer, maybe spread the word on my Mopar Mailing list, and if it wasn't gone by the time fall rolls around, I'll just call the local junkyard to come get it. They specialize in old Mopars, and are pretty well known, so whatever useable parts and sheetmetal are still there would get used. It would help other cars live on, and wouldn't just get immediately pancaked.

    Wow, I just thought of something...I've had that Dart for 16 years now! I bought it on 4/3/92.
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,438
    Interesting but 18 grand???????

    Weird story Didn't think to go to a real shop for that BMW head gasket?

    Just in time for when gas hits $4 a gallon

    Tasteful wing

    "Only one bad spot"

    Old school You think that it still has that 4 - 6 - 8 and that it's working?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    99 BMW 528i --- $6,000??? That's about what it's worth clean and running in today's soft market, with 90K on it. Try $2,500. Try junking it, by the time a real shop figures out what the monkey did to it. Yeah sure, a recession on the way and what I really need is a broken ten year old German luxury car.

    94 'burban --- that should pull in a good 12 mpg in the city. At $4 a gallon, that would mean each mile costs you about .33 cents....ouch! But if you have a large family or a ski lodge---maybe okay. Cheap enough compared to a new one.

    Tiburon Wing -- that should slow you down enough.

    78 Malibu--- well, good winter "salt" car for kickin' around. Try $1,200

    81 Eldorado Coupe--- okay, mint condition. Congratulations. Now try $4,000.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,647
    The diction in the ad for that old 5er makes me think of a car that has been abused by the local Russian mafia chapter. Free might even be too expensive...guaranteed to have other serious issues.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,109
    That '78 Malibu's speedometer got me thinking about something. What year was it that they started highlighting the "55 mph" on speedometers? Did all cars sold in the United States ultimately adopt it, and if so, at the same time? My 1980 Malibu's speedometer had the "5"'s labeled. 5, 15, 25, on up to 85, with the 55 highlighted in orange. My '79 Chryslers are also labeled on the "5", but no highlight for 55. So maybe it was 1980, then?

    I wonder what year it was they finally stopped highlighting it? I'm guessing somewhere between 1989 and 2000, as my '89 Gran Fury's was highlighted, but my 2000 Intrepid isn't.

    Sadly, if that '94 Suburban could actually pull 12 mpg, it would still be more economical than my old '85 Silverado! I'd almost be tempted, except that I have more use for a pickup than a big SUV.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    66 T-Bird -- might be a good deal if it's as clean as he says. WHY don't people tell you if it has AC or not, which is a HUGE plus in value and saleability? Factory AC is worth at least $1,500 extra on this car IMO.

    Old Suburban -- 2 door Suburbans are in pretty high demand. This would become a street rod, no doubt. 3 on the tree with a 6 cylinder just isn't going to cut it. I'm always leery of the term "very little" rust, which is like saying "you have very little cancer". I'd say a crate engine, a TH400 transmission, nice wheels, decent paint job, new upholstery and rebuilt suspension and you're on your way to....to.....something......$15,000 to $20,000 later.
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