Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

stevedebi

"Yes but "ch" is a hard C in English, not the SH sound of German"

I guess I wasn't clear. I was saying that maybe the ad author was from Germany and was transliterating the sound from German to English.

What kind of hilbilly owns a Porche? Except maybe Jed Clampett?

Mr_Shiftright

I think most hillbillies at least have a front Porche :P

lilelvis

I was doing some work out in Purcellville, VA the other day and saw a small dealership that, at first blush, looked like any other used car dealership. Then I realized their inventory was almost all classics. They had a couple clean late 60s/early 70s Chevy trucks out front. Those caught my eye since I love that style truck. But they also had camaros and mustangs (odd since those were parked farther back in the lot as opposed to adjacent to the road).

For those who don't know (undoubtedly most), Purcellville is about 50 miles outside of D.C. and is a combination of Virginia's finest ankle deep gene pool rednecks and McMansion central - the rich moving West to feel llike they are on the farm (but with high speed internet access). I've seen restored classics at higher end dealerships, but never this many at a dealership that looked exactly like what you would expect in rural VA.

For whatever reason, as big of a mustang fan as I am, I had more interest in the Chevy trucks. I guess it's because restored mustangs or pretty easy to seek out. Seeing a bunch of very clean c10s in one place is pretty unusual. No prices on the webiste, but a nice selection.

http://www.championautomotive.net/

andre1969

I thought Purcellville sounded familiar. Looked it up, and I see it's on Route 7, between DC and Winchester. I've passed through it a few times. Wow, small world!

Speaking of that late 60's/early 70's style Chevy truck, I saw one being towed the other day. It was actually a medium-duty truck though, just a cab and partial front-end on a long ladder frame. I hope it's going off somewhere to be restored, rather than just junked.

Old medium- and heavy-duty rigs have always fascinated me. I know there probably isn't much market for them, but I still think they're pretty neat.

explorerx4

a lot of fun stuff there, but most of it isn't in great mechanical condition, a lot of shade tree projects with nice bodies.

lilelvis

I agree. I looked at some of the individual pictures and the engine compartments were what you would expect from 30 year old vehicles. Maybe not so much "restored" as clean originals. That being said, I would just assume buy one of those clean C10s than pay double or triple for one that has been professionally restored. Especially since, like probably most others on this board, I would actually use the thing. i wish they had prices.

No, maybe it's better they don't.

andre1969

When my '85 Silverado finally bites the dust, I had thought about replacing it with an older truck, like a '67-72 style, or the one that came before that. But the last thing I'd want is something that's all fixed up. I wouldn't want one that's a total piece, but one where I wouldn't be afraid to load it up with firewood, haul a load of junk to the dump, or use it to pull up an old tree stump.

explorerx4

i really enjoyed looking at all those cars, even if they aren't in pristine condition.
there were lots of other ones in the background of the main pictures that i didn't see in the inventory.
i never knew those suicide door lincolns actually had a 'b' pillar.
that was my favorite, once i figured out the 65 dodge coronet didn't have power steering or brakes. :surprise:

bumpy

'66 Olds 98: "looks like it did in 1966 and drives that way too" :P

urnews

I was doing some work out in Purcellville, VA the other day and saw a small dealership that, at first blush, looked like any other used car dealership. Then I realized their inventory was almost all classics.

Small world. Our very best friends live in Purcellville and the dealership you mentioned is one of our favorite spots to check out when we visit them about twice a year. The guy has some really neat autos and trucks. Top dollar of course.

210delray

Small world indeed. I used to live in northern VA and once rode my bike along the Washington and Old Dominion Trail (former railroad right-off-way) out to Purcellville, which marks the end of the line.

We have a dealer something like that one here in central Virginia: Autos East. The prices seem "optimistic."

bumpy

"Is not a Turbo Mr2" = overpriced commuter car

A 12-year-old Audi? What could go wrong?

cheap drifter

I like the floormats

This is how most of these ended up.

Ewww ewww ewww.

a distinct lack of manly firmness

fintail

Funny, I have seen odd little rugs in many MB over the years, especially in Europe. Some kind of old tradition.

That Olds just aint right.

Mr_Shiftright

'67 Continental Convertible

"Car should sell for $50,000 plus."

No, car should sell for about $18,500.

"celebrity status" = ZERO
color = minus $10,000 to fix
car = $28,000 on the best of all possible days with the best of all possible cars.

andre1969

I hate to think of how much body integrity that '77 Cutlass lost when they cut the roof off. It actually looks better than I thought it would have, though. Although you can really tell that the '73-77 GM midsize just wasn't designed with a convertible, or hardtop, version in mind. Too much of its design and style just depends on the beltline, which swoops back and joins seamlessly into a forward thrusting B-pillar, with the rear quarter windows being on a different plane that aligns with the decklid.

IMO, the beltline really needs more of a "coke bottle" flow to it in order to work as a convertible. Otherwise, it just makes the beltline at the door, and the slope of the rear deck, just look like two random lines that have nothing to do with each other.

Years ago I saw a '75 Olds Cutlass sedan that someone had chopped the top off to make it look like a convertible, and it actually seemed to work better.

My heart actually goes out to that '87 LeSabre, but my brain, thankfully, wins over and says just junk it already!

gsemike

It's funny that in the ad for the LeSabre, he says that he 'only' wants $350. After that laundry list of problems, he should take $40 from a junkyard and try not to giggle uncontrollably.

With the Cutlass, I'm quite certain the seller has no idea what it means for an engine to be bored out

lemko

I could probably use some bits off that 1987 LeSabre as parts for my Park Ave.

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt a junkyard would even take it for free. They make their money on their available space and how much each space makes for them. Here you have a car with few parts and little interest. He might have to pay to have it removed from his property.

andre1969

Around these parts, I'll often see signs that say "junk cars removed for free, cash paid for some"...so that might be one way to go.

So maybe send Lemko over to strip off what he wants from it, and then find one of those guys to haul it away!

texases

With metal prices up, it should have a little scrap value. I think Mazda got something like $200 a car when they junked all those new ones from the ship that nearly capsized :sick:

qbrozen

yet one more seller who can't read a gas gauge. Yeah, OK, I can't get 25mpg out of my '87 325 and this guy beats that with a 735. I gotta learn his techniques.

Mine is WAY nicer than this with far fewer miles (and I have the correct seats, unlike this car), yet at least I know I'd be dreaming with a $6k asking price!

OK, now for the real projects:

not much of a Mustang fan, but:
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/825195656.html

way overpriced, but you would probably never see another on the road when driving it:
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/824209252.html

I always liked these:
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/824205405.html

Surprisingly low asking price from an M3 owner:
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/824115118.html

too bad no pics:
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/823865965.html

crazy lookin gauges:
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/823755433.html

I'm not sure I've ever seen this before ... or at least never took notice of such a vehicle:
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/821704462.html

And here you thought it was cool to have a car all one color!
http://cnj.craigslist.org/cto/820973106.html

Mr_Shiftright

Ah yes, the very rare Corvair V6 engine option!

81 Trans Am Turbo Coupe -- yep, they made 'em, and the price is okay.

BMW 735i --- he doesn't GET 25-2mpg, he AVERAGES 25-27, so on the highway he has to be getting 30 mpg. I had the exact car and if I drove it like a BABY, I'd get 21 mpg.

andre1969

My old supervisor had an '80 or '81 Trans Am turbo coupe. I remember he got miffed at me because he wanted to sell it but I wasn't interested. And then a few weeks later I bought my '67 Catalina, and he carried on about why I didn't buy his car. I guess in his mind, an old Pontiac is an old Pontiac...all the same :confuse:

I guess turbocharging the 301 was about all Pontiac could do for performance, since the Pontiac 400 and Olds 403 went away after 1979, and I guess it would've been considered a slap in the face if they were forced to use the Camaro's engine.

I wonder if the turbo 301 was banned in California? I know bigger Pontiac engines like the 350 and 400 were substituted with Olds 350's and 403's, and I think regular 301's got substituted with 305's.

texases

How well did those turbo 301s work? I'd hate to have to find parts...

Mr_Shiftright

They're okay.

HP is 205

0-60 in 8.2 sec
1/4 mile is 16.7 @86 mph
Top Speed is 116 mph

The turbo is pretty tame in these cars--you don't get that ON/OFF switch feeling like to do on most turbo cars. Handling was decent for the era as well.

The 301 block was beefed up 1/2 inch main bolts, some more meat in the block iron, a low compression ratio of 7.5 to 1, and a pressure-treated crankshaft. Also mild cam, HD oil pump, 9 lbs boost maximum blowing through a Quadrajet carburetor.

qbrozen

Sent Pop some of those I posted here along with a few more.
He's digging the M3.

andre1969

I'd always wondered how the 301 turbo compared to the Trans Am 400, and found the answer, oddly enough, in my old Mopar police car book! It lists the results of the annual Michigan State Police car tests, and also throws up some results of period performance cars, usually C&D or MT tests.

Anyway, for comparison, the 1979 Trans Am, with the 400-4bbl...

0-60 in 6.7 seconds
1/4 mile in 15.3 seconds@97 mph
Top speed: 124 mph.

220 hp, which is actually kinda impressive considering that in '77 it only put out 200 in the Trans Am (and Can Am). I guess it must have been rare in the late 70's for hp to actually go UP as the years went by!

Quickest police car that the MSP tested that year was the St. Regis. 360-4bbl, 195 hp.

0-60 in 10.1 sec
0-100 in 30.2 sec (they didn't list 1/4 mile figures)
top speed 122.9 mph

So you could still outrun the cops if you had the '79 Trans Am, but not the '80! Of course, back then I'm sure there were still plenty of big-block police cars prowling the streets back then. The 1978 Monaco used a 440-4bbl with 255 hp, did 0-60 in 9.3 seconds, and had a top speed of 133 mph. I don't think police cars got back to that level of performance until the LT-1 "whale body" Caprices of 1994!

One more comment about the 301. I've heard mention of a beefed up, non-turbo version of it that put out around 170-175 hp, offered only in 1981. However, my old car book only shows a 135 hp version (most likely a 2-bbl?) 150 hp (4bbl?) and the turbo (down to 200 hp for 1981 from 205 in 1980)

I wonder if it actually existed? Did it make it to production or was it just in its experimental stages when it got scrapped? Pontiac itself was almost on the chopping block by that time, and the 301 and its 265 offshoot were ditched after 1981.

It would've been cool if they could have improved the 301, kept it in production, and let Pontiac still have its own V-8. The engine did have a few good things going for it, like light weight. It weighed about 452 lb. In comparison, I've seen figures thrown around of around 500 lb for the Ford 302, 525 for the Mopar 318, and 575 for the Chevy smallblock of that era. Low reciprocating mass is one thing, but the Chevy was NOT a lightweight engine overall!

I wonder how much weight the beefed up turbo block added back, though?

bumpy

Ah yes, the very rare Corvair V6 engine option!

It could happen. I once saw a gen2 with a Buick 215 V8 swapped in it, so a 3800 should be able to go in without a whole lot of effort. :P

Mr_Shiftright

The beefed up block added about 10 lbs. of weight.

Mr_Shiftright

A 3800 would be a nice conversion. I think the 215 was a crappy motor :P

hpmctorque

Wouldn't the added weight of the 3800 + radiator, water pump and hoses vs. the Corvair's horizontally opposed six introduce some serious handling problems in the Corvair? I think of the Czech Tatra, a good (maybe even great) car in its day, except for the stability and handling problems stemming from its heavy rear engine.

Mr_Shiftright

It can be worked out. I've seen Porsche 911s with Chevy V6s in them. But yes, you'd need to do suspension work and corner weighting and all the rest.

lemko

There's a guy at work who has a 1966 VW Karmann Ghia with a 1964 Corvair Monza engine in it.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes I've seen those conversions. To me, it's just trading one set of problems for another, but.....

fintail

Not a bad looking driver

Gas miser

Classy

Malaise tuning

Can't seem to sell this, I wonder why

"very dependable"

"Another bullet proof car from generous motors"

qbrozen

actually, there are several volvo fanatics who would love that Bertone .... but what the hell is with the conversion??!! THAT is what kills it.

Hell, with the original V6, that car took over 11 secs to hit 60. Now what? I gotta plan a day in advance to merge on the highway with that thing?

Mr_Shiftright

1967 Skylark -- dash-mounted variable timing? That's *very* scary.

Volvo Bertone --- ah, yes, the volvo that was to become the "collectible". Oh, well, maybe next century.

Honda N600-- Those are neat little cars. I love 'em. 600cc twin motorcycle engine, chain driven transaxle. I've seen one converted to a Honda 750 4 cylinder. They aren't slow, either, even in stock form. I had one and it would go 80 mph on the flats.

qbrozen

oh, and i'm with shifty on the N600.
Cool little car.
Would make a neat autocross project.

andre1969

but I've already had a '69 Bonneville, 4-door hardtop, so I dunno if I really need a repeat experience. I like that pale yellow better than the awful goldish/green color that my Bonneville was.

hpmctorque

...with 93500 miles looks good to me, but I can't imagine that it's "great", and I think we can agree that it's not "little." The price seems fair, however, if the description of its condition is reasonably accurate. Personally, though, I'd be afraid of it because I wouldn't trust myself to dump it at the first sign of trouble. I might be tempted to pour good money on top of bad when (not if, of course) small things failed.

lilelvis

I've been looking forever for an "Official Pimp Car of the Indy 500." Unfortunately, that one has that aftermarket tach that totally screws the resale. How could I bring it to the BJ Auction with that tach?! After all, if it ain't a numbers matching pimp car, why bother?

One of these days, if I ever have more time and money than sense, I am going to buy an older Jag and a Range Rover Classic and replace their drivetrains (and anything connected to them and anything that has a wire connected to it) with an EFI Chevy drivetrain. I love British interiors, but I could do without the British electronics and leaks.

boomchek

There's a hot yellow car partially under wraps partially visible in one of the Pace Car photos (where the driver's door is open). I think it's a 911 Turbo from the 80s but I could be wrong.

fintail

Living under a car cover in Lynnwood, it is probably a 912E with nailed-on trim :P

fintail

Old Jags are funny to me...big on the outside, small on the inside. Doesn't get me going so much. Engine conversions kill their value and interest too...so you get to deal with British engineering, or own a Frankenstein.

Mr_Shiftright

If that '71 XJ6 doesn't smell of gasoline and mildew, I'll eat it on TV. :P

andre1969

I noticed that about those old XJ6es too, that they look like big cars at first, but inside they're downright subcompact! As much as I gripe about the comfort of cars like the xA, Yaris, and Fit...the Jag is worse! :sick:

I think it's mainly the styling that does it...this is the perfect example of a car that was created by stylists, with little regard as to how to get adults to fit comfortably inside. The thing is beautiful from every angle, and just about perfectly proportioned. But I think that slim, tapered body might make it look longer than it really is. And to get that kind of proportioning on a car that's really not that big, with a long hood and long rear deck, you have to give up length somewhere...in this case, the passenger cabin.

A couple years ago, at a car show, in the car corral there was a 70's Jag XJ6, next to a mid-70's Chrysler New Yorker. Talk about opposite ends of the luxury spectrum! It's a shame you couldn't combine the best traits of both cars...the handling and build quality and nice interior materials of the Jag, with the room, comfort, and (relative) reliability/durability of the Chrysler. That would've made one heck of a car, if you could do it!

Mr_Shiftright

The Jensen-Healey tried that but all you got was a British car that ate gas and was nose-heavy. It really didn't work, as logical as it may sound. Nor did the Pantera, the Facel Vega, etc. Maybe the only British/American hybrid that really clicked was the Cobra and of course the famous Ford GT that won Lemans.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the XJ6 engine. It had one of the longest runs of any engine in automotive history, almost 40 years. Perhaps only the small block Chevy beats it, but not many others.

When people dispose of the Jaguar XJ6 engine and install an American V8, they have basically removed the best part of the car and solved nothing IMO.

The XJ6s problems are everything ATTACHED to the engine, and the numerous engineering and assembly problems.

andre1969

The XJ6s problems are everything ATTACHED to the engine, and the numerous engineering and assembly problems.

I wonder then if anybody's ever thought to pull that engine out, and put it in a car that's less troubleprone?

I know this is totally off the wall, but in my example above, what would be the end result if you could somehow swap the Jag's inline 6 into a 1975 or so New Yorker? The NYer's 440 was down to about 200-205 hp by then, so I guess the Jag engine would be close, if not more powerful? It wouldn't have the torque of a 440, but would the Jag engine be lighter?

And while a mid 70's New Yorker is a porker of a car, I'm sure a 70's Jag was no lightweight itself!

Mr_Shiftright

Well you'd have to mate the XJ6 engine to the Jaguar's various transmissions, and the early ones really sucked (Borg Warner). I guess you might find an older Jag manual transmission, but you wouldn't be very happy with that, either.

You have to remember that this engine won LeMans. A Chrysler 440 never did.

The XJ6 engine is race-bred, which may account for its stubborn refusal to function in a sedan.

The XJ6 engine's main attributes are smoothness and durability under high revs. What this means is that putting a Chevy V8 in an XJ6 makes no sense because you lose that "silky" vibration-free smoothness, (the car's most endearing characteristic) and putting an XJ 6 engine in an American car makes no sense because it's not a high torque, low rev engine that American cars need.

But you are correct, the XJ6 engine is as much a porker as the 440. You don't save any weight one way or the other.

The XJ6 engine belongs in a big 2-seat sports car, period.

fintail

Somewhat unusual

A 290 isn't the most muscular

Prancing horse slushbox

No surprise the same guy has this money pit

Good luck with that

I saw one of these the other day

Nice looking bustle

Should last forever