Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemko

Actually, it's a 1971 Ford with a 1972 bumper!



1971 Ford



1972 Ford

Mr_Shiftright

Let's see--what would be a modern Austin Healey 3000? If you stick to the strict configuration, that means a smallish drop top and an in-line 6, so that's pretty much a BMW Z4 alone in that field.

hpmctorque

Sure, the Z4 could be considered a modern counterpart to the Austin-Healey 3000, but I see even more resemblence to a BMW Z3 six.

fintail

What's the difference other than the bumper and peak of the beak?

benjaminh

Yes, I love Lex and Otis: "Everyone has their little faults. *Mine's* in California!"

and "Otisburg! It's just a tiny little place..."

and "The greatest criminal mind of our time."

Gene Hackman is great in that. One of his best roles.

You're right, Shifty, the BMW Z is similar update for today. The Z3 appeals to me a bit. Here's a 96 Z3 with 35,000 miles in great shape with bidding at less than $10k...I realize the Z3 has the 4 cylinder engine, and so maybe not a serious sports car. But probably peppy at least, and fun to drive. (And more along the lines of something I could afford in a fantasy, not that my wife would be happy about it.)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-Z3-1996-32k-mi-ONE-OWNER-5-spd-nearly-like-ne- - w_W0QQitemZ320372118199QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item4a97aa92b7&_tr- - ksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A-1|39%3A1|240%3A1308

fintail

"Otisburg? Otisburg??"

"It's amazing that brain can generate enough power to keep those legs moving."

It's all classic.

The coupe version of the Z3 appeals to me, for its weirdness. "The shoe"

benjaminh

That's a good one with the legs.

"But my mother lives in Hackensack..."

Lex looks at his watch. Then looks up. Shakes his head no.

Later...

"Miss Tessmacher!!"

Yeah, that Z3 does look rather like a shoe....

Practical BMW, if such a thing exists (?): 6 speed manual 6 cylinder 530 BMW wagon from 2006. $28K, but I like the looks of this one, and it's still low on the miles.. Bet it's pretty fun to drive. And functional.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2006-BMW-530XIT-WAGON-6-SPEED-MANUAL_W0QQitemZ330- - - 331140719QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item4ce945326f&_trksid=p4506.c0.- - - m245&_trkparms=72%3A317|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

Mr_Shiftright

A 4 cylinder 90s era Z3 would be quite overpriced at $10K. $7500 is plenty. The Z3 also came in a 6 cylinder and is much preferred. But for an entry level Z, the 4 cylinder is adequate.

hpmctorque

Would it be reasonable to say that the four cylinder BMW Z3 is to the Austin- Healey 100 as the six cylinder Z3 is to the Austin-Healey 3000?

I'm hesitant to use the term spiritual successor in making the comparison because I don't have any evidence that BMW was trying to update the Austin-Healey, or any other British roadster, with the Z3.

lemko

The 1971 model has a deeper inset grille with a different pattern. The center section of the 1972 model is taller and bisected by the bumper whereas the 1971 model's center section is shorter with the bumper dipping down below it rather than bisecting it. If you look at Lois Lane's 1971 Ford, you will notice the center section does not fill the space below the 1972 bumper.

Mr_Shiftright

It is hard to make these comparisons because the AH 4s and 6s are such torquey beasts, whereas the modern Z3 4 cyl. requires higher revs to even get out of its own way.

Also the clatter of the AH engines, the smell of oil and gas, the mechanical primitiveness of British cars in general, seems to be in such a different world than the silent, efficient, tidy, hi-tech German creations.

As I may have said before, you could re-surrect an auto mechanic from 1925 and he'd be perfectly at home working on a 1965 Austin Healey.

fintail

Aha, now I see it. I am surprised the hood lined up so well...or is the hood also a 72?

lokki

4 cylinder 90s era Z3 would be quite overpriced at $10K. $7500 is plenty.
I seem to remember that the 318's had head gasket problems.... did the 4 cylinder Z3's suffer from that as well? Was it a chronic afliction, or could it be permanent cured?

Mr_Shiftright

My impression was that the head gasket and warped head issues on those BMWs of the 90s was directly the result of the crappy cooling systems (breaking radiator necks and defective water pumps), not the head gasket itself.

So were I to buy any older BMW of that era I would certainly replace the radiator and water pump without even thinking about it. I'd treat it as preventive maintenance (presuming it hadn't been done recently).

fintail

Speaking of project cars...I had the fintail out yesterday and drove it a bit, maybe 75 miles or so. Once when I stopped and parked, it puked up some coolant out of the overflow hose. The temperature gauge didn't register anything unusual and the car never got overly hot in the time I drove it. Is this just a hiccup?

Also, when parked in hot direct sun, a couple times the car needed three turns of the key to start. When parked in the shade, it started right up as normal. This might be acceptable for an old 70s barge, but the fintail doesn't play that game very often. I think the cold start thing might need adjustment.

And another weird thing, the turn signals worked 100% of the time yesterday. I haven't touched what I thought was a defective blinker unit.

Mr_Shiftright

You might check the seal on your pressure cap. Remember, radiator pressure raises the boiling point, so if you are leaking pressure, the coolant will reach boiling sooner.

As for hard start, as you know these fintails require a rather EXACT ignition point setting.

fintail

I used to have a cool radiator cap on that car, with a button on top that you could release the pressure before removing it. Unfortunately, a piece inside it broke and I couldn't find another like it. I'll examine the cap the next time I drive the car.

I did notice the car was missing a little in low speed 3rd/4th gear acceleration, like it was lugging down or something. The timing might need an adjustment.

The car doesn't have breaker points anymore, as it got an electronic ignition retrofit about 8 years ago.

Mr_Shiftright

You might have a look at your spark plugs as well. When was the last valve adjustment?

fintail

The valves were last looked at in 2001, I think. That's probably only 10K or so miles ago. It got new plugs and wires in 2006 I want to say.

hpmctorque

How many miles are on your fintail's odometer?

fintail

I think it reads 49xxx now. I am not 100% sure of the true reading...its either 149 or 249, but I have a gap in records from 1976-89. Either it was driven about 13K miles during that time, or 113K,

hpmctorque

249 would be a testimonial to that model's durability if the drivetrain is original.

fintail

As far as I know the transmission has never been rebuilt, but engine has had a few valve jobs, and I replaced the rings in 1997.

qbrozen

I've been drivin the Z quite a bit lately. It is a pretty pleasant car. I would say amazingly pleasant when you take the price into account. I've already put about a thousand miles on it since purchase. This is my 3rd day commuting with it this week alone because my son insists on being transported to school in it.

It has been even nicer since I replaced the steering rack and now have power steering. I also took it to get it buffed. Came out pretty nice. And I've slowly been working on removing the nasty remains of the pinstripe. I am planning on autoX'ing it this Saturday if the weather holds up. I've already got my eye on performance springs and struts as well as high performance rubber. I pondered swapping the wheels, but the stock ones look great, so although performance rubber in the stock size doesn't exist, I can get a set of Hankooks that are just a bit shorter, so I can't justify spending the $$ on wheels.

As it sits, I really believe I could get $3k for it based on what I've seen on the enthusiast boards and the responses I've gotten on the car. So I'm in so far for $1100 purchase, $200 steering, $80 stereo, and I think another $300 in tune-up/preventative maintenance, oh and the $130 buffing. My wife has approved $1200 in performance upgrades. So if I were to spend that, I think I'd still be on the break even side if I ever choose to sell it.

lemmer

Yeah, you couldn't have done much better on that car. Did you put in the steering rack yourself? That is where I fall down - much past routine maintenance and I am out of my league.

qbrozen

Yup. Bought a rebuilt unit online along with a junkyard pump. I actually had to do the job twice ... long story. I also replaced the tie rods while there. No point in paying for 2 alignments. Oh, I forgot to add $69.99 for lifetime alignment.
I also threw on new front brake pads while there. Turns out, although the previous owner told me they were recently replaced, they were almost gone. Picked up a performance set on clearance at tirerack for a whopping $8.

Rack was a PITA, though. Involves removing engine mount bolts and jacking the engine up out of the way. I'm very thankful for the education my father has provided me and continues to provide me.

Mr_Shiftright

http://www.britishv8.org/MG/DanRoot.htm

lemmer

Me too. It really needs wire wheels and a Chevy 350 to be done right.

Mr_Shiftright

I did drive a Mercedes 190SL with the Chevy V-6 F.I. conversion, also beautifully done, and it was pretty much fun. Those V-6s have some grunt. I think the 6 cylinder was the right choice for what he was trying to create--he doesn't have a lot of room in there.

qbrozen

I think its all interesting and even kind of cool in some respects ... but I have to ask WHY?
Why use an MGB in the first place? There is nothing left of it. It would have been easier to build a tube frame. At the very least, he could have used a crappy MGB instead of an "excellent one." What a waste of time and money.
And, an even bigger mystery, is why use one of the worst GM V6s ever made? There are countless better options.

Mr_Shiftright

This sort of craziness is more like art work than machinery....there is no "why" about it I guess. Like I said, I'm speechless.

lemmer

That is kind of what I was thinking - a waste of time and money. With that sort of effort, I'd rather see something rescued and restored back to something close to stock condition.

texases

No logic exists - think about the $$ and manpower, you could restore something interesting to #1 condition, I'd imagine, but then it would not be 'yours'. Given it's based on a '77, can't say any real harm was done.

fintail

That's some amazing work....but the MGB windshield makes it look more malaise neoclassic than classic roadster. Too bad that wasbn't modified somehow.

Mr_Shiftright

Probably the payoff is lots of eyeballs, inquiries. No doubt you'd get more attention from that than you would from a genuine classic of the era. The workmanship must be quite good though since he got a Best in Class.

Of course, I remember from my days in car shows that sometimes, in a local show, there were only 2 cars in a Class!!

andre1969

I was at Advance Auto today getting some odds and ends, and found out that they still cary trunk struts for my '79 New Yorker! At some point in its life, the struts in my car were replaced with hood struts for some unknown little car, and they weren't enough to hold the trunk open, so the previous owner threw in a wooden extension rod that hooks to a paint roller!

They're not in stock, but the cashier placed an order for me, and they should be delivered by Friday. It'll be nice to have that trunk stay open on its own. I figure otherwise, it was just a matter of time before I'd get decapitated at a car show, trying to reach into the trunk to get a beer out of the cooler!

fintail

Trunk struts like the rods that hold a hatchback open?

I don't think I've ever seen a trunkback sedan with those. Admittedly, I haven't owned many varied cars.

andre1969

Yeah, the '79-80 Mopar R-bodies used struts like a hatchback (My Intrepid uses struts, too) instead of the more normal torsion bar hinges. I guess that was pretty rare, for way back then. They must have had problems with them though, because for 1981 they went to the torsion bar hinges. Kind of odd that they'd even bother to change though, since they discontinued the R- about halfway through the 1981 model year.

My grandmother's '85 LeSabre used those struts for the hood, instead of the hinges with the springs. I guess it saved a few pounds. As I recall, Buick and Olds used a few weight saving tricks here and there, to make the Delta and LeSabre a bit lighter than the Caprice and Parisienne. I think the Delta used hinges with springs though, for its hood.

I remember when the car was about 9 years old, the struts were starting to have difficulty holding the hood open. I got some off a junkyard car, and they lasted until we got rid of the car in late 2002, when it was almost 18 years old.

jlflemmons

I'll go you one better. My little xTreme has the gas struts to hold open the glass hatch, and has VACUUM struts attached to the tailgate so you cannot drop it open. Two cables support the weight when it is fully open, but when you reach inside and release the tailgate, it slowly and smoothly glides open and onto the cables.

Must have been some issue with folks dropping the tailgate open and pulling the cables or their mounts???

fintail

I've never had a car with anything like that. All MB I have owned have the conventional style trunk hinges, and the spring-balance hoods with no struts and certainly not a prop rod. Actually now that I think of it, I want to say the fintail has weird trunk hinges, rather than just having a curved bar, the hinge itself is hinged and kind of folds when the trunklid is moved.

The Tauruses my mother owned had struts, and so does the Camry. That little touch seems to add something over a prop rod...so long as it works.

lokki

My 3 series uses cute little trunk struts to go with the fancy non-intrusive trunk hinges. I'd never seen hood struts though.... makes sense though.....

As for that car-formerly-known-as-MG, I think I understand. It wasn't really built as a means to a specific end.... it was built for the fun of building 'something'.

He's more of a car-building performance-artist than a car guy per se. So the engine is chosen more on the basis of what fits (and what's handy) than what's fast.... that's my theory anyhow.... my grandfather was that kind of guy, and I've inherited some of it. It's more about the joy of puzzles than what the puzzle will look like when it's finally assembled.

Make sense?

hpmctorque

I think you're right about that car-formerly-known-as-MG. I kind of like it, and applaud the builder's creativity.

Insofar as the engine is concerned, in addition to fitting and being handy (lots available at low prices), since it's been rebuilt it's probably better than the original.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes of course. It makes sense in the same way that custom rods make sense. It's really a display platform for the builder's ingenuity and skill, not his common sense. Having said that, the builder can't get all petulant and huffy if some people don't care for his aesthetic or his choices of materials. If you become a "performer" and put your works on display, you have to be able to accept the risks of a performer, which might be applause, or rotten tomatoes thrown at you---you never know, when you put yourself on the stage.

At least with a strict adherence to restoration, you are going over old territory. When you're done restoring a car to historical standards, it's going to look like what it is---you know the result before you start in a sense.

andre1969

My Intrepid has struts for both the hood and the trunk. And I think they're both going bad, as neither the hood nor the trunk lifts up as easily as it used to.

As for that MG-thing with the 2.8 3.4 my guess is that he picked the engine for its small size. The 2.8 is a 60-degree V-6, and will fit in places that Buick's 90 degree 3.2/3.3/3.8/4.1 V-6 wouldn't go. It's also a lighter engine, although probably not by a huge amount, as the Buick engine is pretty light to begin with. All things considered, I think the end result is pretty neat. I think a better engine choice would be the 3.5, but it hadn't come out yet when this car was built. I don't think it debuted until 2004, when the Malibu and G6 first started getting it. Minivans got it around that time, too.

jlflemmons

A supercharged Quad-4 would have been fun, too!

xwesx

I like that explanation. I find that I equally appreciate both schools of thought, assuming the end result is well done in either case. Of course, I feel much the same way about movies - I am not so concerned with the genre, as long as the film presented both engages and entertains.

In the case of that MGB, the builder certainly showcased his ingenuity (assuming you reviewed his photo journal of the process)! I think the end result was very well done, but then I do not have any strong feelings about the MGB. I can see his rationale for using a "donor" vehicle in excellent condition, but I bet loyalists were cringing at the thought that one in such good shape was chopped up for this project.

Mr_Shiftright

As someone else commented, it was a 1977 MGB, so no great loss. That's not a car worthy of preservation, by most enthusiasts' standards at any rate. Anything you do to a '77 MGB probably improves it. You're not chopping up a '55 Caddy Eldorado, you're chopping up a Cimarron.

fezo

I suppose the fact that it was a 77 does make the loss a little more bearable.

I put things like that in the same category with guys that superglue pennies over the entire body of the car or carpet the exterior in astroturf....

Mr_Shiftright

I'd say that if he cut up a really nice '77 he cut up about $2500 bucks.

texases

"I put things like that in the same category with guys that superglue pennies over the entire body of the car or carpet the exterior in astroturf.... "

Aww, give him a break - there's some nice work there, plus some imagination to make it look like a car, instead of a disaster. I think Shifty's comment on how it's like a hot rod is pretty close - great craftsmanship, interesting ideas, just don't worry about what it's for...