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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    "This car from Caterham is over $60,000"

    No, the car in the pictures is not worth much at all. A complete Lotus 7 from Caterham is worth $60K
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,974
    I posted a 91 Fleetwood Broughm last week with only 24 miles. Well, I had it in my watched items on Ebay and cannot believe what I just saw.....

    $35,500!!!!!!!!

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Look at the window sticker...he's the original owner and he paid $36,000 for it. So he lost money----and those were 1991 dollars, too! 1991 dollars were worth the equivalent of $56,000 today.

    Goes to prove---don't store that 2009 "classic" and hope to make money on it.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    throw up....No, I AM going to....

    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/1372983037.html

    Exhibit #1: The Fakey-Doo Dashboard

    image

    Exhibit #2 The Real Thing

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    Funny thing...just looking at a common commodity like silver...in 1991 it was about $4/oz...today it has been around $16/oz...which would make that Caddy investment worth $144000 today. Many other cars would have done better too. His car is now a very pretty curiosity....but the way to buy it is now, not new.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    What? I don't see a difference...
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I was watching that auction too. That's crazy. Well the seller took a big risk storing that car and hoping to make money on it if that was his intention. Lucky for him at least the bids didn't top out at $15 or $20k.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    ...gives me goose bumps.

    Just don't ask where...

    http://lansing.craigslist.org/cto/1384549809.html

    Actually, I don't think he's wildly off base with the price... the car does look great, and might be worth around $5 if it's all there.

    But I love how "these run forever" seems to be in no conflict with rebuilt "everything" over the past decade... grandfather's axe is still going strong, i guess.

    -Mathias
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,974
    If you read the questions, he figures he has over 100K invested when you consider all his storage fees. Its not like he kept it in his own garage.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    But I love how "these run forever" seems to be in no conflict with rebuilt "everything" over the past decade... grandfather's axe is still going strong, i guess.

    I wonder how much some of those repair costs would be nowadays? At first I thought the rebuilt engine ($3698) and tranny ($1530) seemed awfully cheap. Until I read the receipts a bit more closely and saw that the engine was done way back in 1996 and the tranny in early 1997.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,384
    nice looking car for the age and mileage.

    also, he makes it seem like the owner spent dizzying amounts on it. Well, over 10 years, that works out to just over $200 on average, and started with an 11 YO car.

    so, gotta figure that it was not that expensive to buy at 10 years/100K+, so not too much extra in depreciation.

    add it all together, and for the price of leasing an Accord every 3 years, you could have been tooling around in this beast.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    What's interesting is how the car found the time to break itself so often. Were Hans and Dieter drinking heavily on the assembly line or what? Shameful performance for a once-great marque if you ask me. I trust Benz has gotten a grip on things. My 220Sb and my 300D and my 280SL were paragons of reliability compared to this boat.

    RE; Frazer-Nash Dashboard Comparisons --- it's subtle, fin, you have to look close.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    It also doesn't look like that car was really driven all that much, which makes me wonder even more about all the repairs it needed. For instance, the engine rebuild was at 113,000 miles...but was way back in August 1996! So the car's only been driven about 57,000 miles over the intervening 13 years.

    And then the timing chain has to be replaced around 160,000. Isn't a timing chain something that usually gets replaced when you rebuild an engine? :confuse:
  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,413
    It looks like one of the old fashioned cars at the amusement park, but for 3500, whatever
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well maybe that's why the "rebuilt" engine only cost $3500 or so. Normally to rebuild a big Mercedes V8 to factory specs, in today's dollars, would be about $15,000 to $18,000 dollars.

    The term "rebuilt" is like the term "I love you". It doesn't seem to have one particular definition for a lot of people. To me, "rebuilt" SHOULD mean---every single part in that engine is brought back to new factory standards, whether it was working okay or not.

    If old parts are re-used because they are still 'good", then the engine is "overhauled", not rebuilt.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    Yeah his price isn't too high if it is as nice as it looks. 5K is a fair price for a really clean W126 with no mechanical needs.

    I will say one thing though, that paint doesn't look to be the quality of the factory job. These cars received amazing paintwork when new, and it is tough to duplicate today, and could never be done for 2 grand on such a large car. I noticed it before I read the list of receipts. The mirrors should also be a silvery-grey, not body color - and I am pretty sure that color would have never been monotone when new, these cars usually had a contrasting lower panel, on this car it would have been grey, IIRC. The front seats also look a little saggy and could be reinforced. The interior looks really nice otherwise, though, and I like seeing the original radio. I do prefer the 1989+ cars over this, for their revised upholstery and door panels. They also had a smoother steering wheel.

    I have to wonder if the car was neglected early in its life, as that engine is relatively durable and rarely needs such work before 200K miles or so, unless someone hasn't maintained it. The mention of door locks and ignition being replaced doesn't bode well, either. The tranny failure at 120K is almost certainly because it never had a service before then. You're also not going to get a full engine rebuild on one of these for 3698, not in 1996 (and it appears there are other things on that receipt, with 2200 in engine work) and not before or after.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    As the problems didn't unveil themselves until 100K miles + , I suspect the driver was a big part of the problem.

    You mean JC Whitney steering wheels and gauges weren't OEM items in 1930s British cars?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I think that was the worst kit car dashboard I have ever seen in my life, and in the various re-incarnations I might have undergone previously.

    "It takes as much genius to do something 100% wrong as to do it 100% right. Think of all the things you have to consciously ignore".
  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    It looks like one of the old fashioned cars at the amusement park

    I agree. :shades: The ones where you can spin the steering wheel effortlessly a hundred times.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • boomchekboomchek Member Posts: 5,516
    I agree with Fintail on the paint issue. A quick extrior respray will just ruin the car, if not now in the way it looks repainted, then maybe in a few years in the way it will chip and peel.

    The "Engine Rebuild" receipt reads "something.....valve job for $2200", so maybe it's no engine rebuild, but just maintenance work..

    I'm also curious why the front and rear bumper covers were replaced and the car repainted if it was maintained so meticulously and kept in a climate controlled garage.

    Either something funny about this one, or the original owner was just an elderly guy who ran into everything with this Benz.

    For the mileage, and because of the repaint if I was gonna buy it, I'd offer him $3500 tops.

    2016 Audi A7 3.0T S Line, 2021 Subaru WRX

  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    .....that 420SEL looks nice enough, but he's dreaming at ~$7500. I concur with the speculation about the 'engine rebuild' at $3500???? Maybe a major service (all belts/hoses/fluids/gaskets?). The claim of that thing getting '20+mpg' is laughable, also (I think they were RATED, way back then, at something like 18mpg highway....they had a guzzler tax, fercryinoutloud).
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    I had a 6cyl W126, the SWB version, and coaxing anything more than 21-22 out of it on the highway was pretty much impossible. I can't see how a V8 in a bigger heavier car could do better.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I babysat a friends 560SEL for a few weeks and driving as carefully as I could (and I am good at squeezing out MPG when I have to be) I never bested 15 mpg.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    In town my E55 is the same way, 15mpg is about as good as it gets. On the highway though, it can easily hit 25mpg with little effort - so in mixed driving it is tolerable. The 5 speed auto is good for efficient highway driving, I guess.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    hehe a car that needs a babysitter shows you how problematic they can be.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    She ended up junking it actually. Too shabby to fix up anymore.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    "will throw 12 foot flames out the back!! "
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1383412394.html

    1. No VW engine. 2. Lots of gauges. 3. Not a Mercedes. 4. ?
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/cto/1380764273.html

    Hey buddy, where's the fire?
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1379565435.html

    Oh, it's a REAL fire?
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1362203485.html

    You were close, Jennifer, real close
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1357006334.html

    1999 T-REX CHEVY GMC HUMMER DODGE
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/1366538167.html

    Quote # 1
    "...currently being used as a storage facility for all of my daughters toys"

    Quote # 2
    ...the looks of utter horror or complete adoration on everyone's faces as I rolled, neigh...roared, up beside them was more than gratifying. "Yes, I could squish your $250K car with the slip of my left foot," was often a thought...
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/cto/1338593428.html

    Drive this one till it collapses into a puddle of rust drops ? I know it's irrational, but it's tempting. I mean, this and a bottle of corn liquor...and....
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/cto/1386789025.html

    Can you guess the decade, boys and girls?
    "...over $7k spent on chrome alone..."
    http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/ctd/1383173398.html
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    The ghastly kit car won a trophy in an "antique" division? Must have been a very competitive show.

    Buick is pretty, but it bugs me when people do an all out restoration but get the whitewalls wrong.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    maybe it was in the antique furniture division?

    I had planned to post photos of the original Mercedes SSK dashboard and engine, for comparison, but upon investigation, I found the difference so utterly and galactically vast in contrast, that it's not even worth the time.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,108
    Kinda like
    image
    to
    image
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    GEEZ....look at the wake---how the ship is pushed sideways. I'd love to have one of those for the Hamptons.

    I have nothing against replicas PER SE...for instance, some of the Cobras and Porsche Speedsters are very nicely done....but GOOD GRIEF don't do it BADLY....14" tires with fake wire wheel hubcaps, and a tiny steering wheel with tilt and gauges from a lawnmower.......and those vulgar "Gatsby Horns".

    Worse yet, then they dress up in 1910s garb while driving 1930s replicas, so it's a double bad.

    Utterly blind to history---no excuse for it.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    I've never understood the people who want fake Ferraris, Lamborgini's or Mercedes SSK's. I always want (like everybody) the best I can afford, but I can't see buying fakes that don't have any of the capabilities of the real thing.

    The whole concept baffles me.

    The only exception I can see is a well-built Cobra or a Caterham... Since the originals were only mythical beasts anyhow, nobody believes that yours is pretending to be the real thing.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    One would think the guy could have at least got a cheap piece of machined metal for the dash panel.

    Those fake MBs are the worst of the worst. The Cobras can look OK, the fake Model As look OK, even the fake MGs and A-H look harmless enough from a distance. But the fake classic period MBs...always ridiculous.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,108
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    Price seems decent IMO, if the car checks out in person, and if it has a decent engine. I think that's a Luxury LeMans, which had a standard V-8. However, WHICH standard V-8 I'm not sure. IIRC, they ranged from a 150 hp 350-2bbl on up to a 230 hp 400-4bbl. My guess is that it's going to be a 350 or one of the tamer <200 hp 400's.

    I never liked the fender skirts on these cars...I think it makes them look fat. But I do like the big triangular rear windows, rather than the little opera windows like my '76 Grand LeMans has. Otherwise, nice color scheme. I hate it when they mistake vinyl seats for leather, though!
  • jlflemmonsjlflemmons Member Posts: 2,242
    I know what you mean about the leather, though I will say that the '72 Cutlass we had used some of the most realistic looking vinyl I have ever seen in a car. Really heavy duty stuff, after many years it showed absolutely no wear whatsoever.

    It was white, and you could use some pretty strong cleaners on it without damage.
  • ghuletghulet Member Posts: 2,564
    yeah, you do tend to notice, adjusting for climate, care, usage and the usual, a difference in wearability/durability in interiors between certain makes (Olds versus Chevy or Chrysler versus Plymouth, etc.).....the quality difference, at least at the time, was no myth, the 'get what you pay for' thing definitely applied. Now, I'm not so sure.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I know what you mean about the leather, though I will say that the '72 Cutlass we had used some of the most realistic looking vinyl I have ever seen in a car.

    My '69 Bonneville had some pretty nice vinyl in it. Too bad it was an awful goldish color. And I like the vinyl in my '76 Grand LeMans. The inserts on the seats seem to be of a nicer looking, softer-feeling vinyl than the rest of the car. Unfortunately, it's the nicer-looking stuff that's starting to tear! There's a pretty bad tear on the base cushion of the driver's seat, so I just keep a red towel over it. And the back seat looked pristine...until I started having passengers back there! The top of the backrest had become tender from years of sun exposure I guess, and started to crack a bit.

    Pontiac tried really hard to guzzy up the LeMans, but it just didn't seem to work out. The '73 was popular, but then the first oil embargo took care of that in '74. For '75, Pontiac replaced the Luxury LeMans with the Grand LeMans, and spruced up the interior a bit. Nicer door panels with pull straps, thick vinyl, and lower carpeting. And the Grand Prix dashboard was definitely a nice upgrade from the standard LeMans dash. But, it just didn't sell. I think the '75 actually sold less than '74, and then '76 and '77 saw further declines. I think Pontiac sold about 39,000 just of the Luxury LeMans coupe in 1973, yet by 1977, the whole LeMans lineup was down to around 80,000 units. The Grand Prix really didn't cost much more, and had a lot of magic in its name and styling cues, so most people probably figured why buy a LeMans when you could get a Grand Prix? Or, just go over to Olds and get a Cutlass.

    Another car that really impressed me with its vinyl was, of all things, the 1978-81 Malibu Classic. It had this really nice, thick vinyl that was comfortable at the same time (well, for vinyl), and had a nice texture and look to it. The only thing that really marred the look was a nasty looking plastic strip that ran down the middle of the seats. I always thought that was a bit odd, as the base Malibu didn't have it.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    One of the things that has always puzzled me is the question "what happened to all that nice vinyl upholstry they used to have? Was it something the EPA made them stop, or was it just cost savings, or was did it just go out of fashion?

    Those old interiors were really nice stuff, and I can't believe that there wouldn't be a lot of people willing to pay for whatever BMW and Mercedes call their pleather.... if you could get in some nice colors.

    I mean, can you even get a Camaro now with a red interior?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I think the drop in vinyl was just because of changing tastes. When vinyl first came onto the scene in the 1950's, it was considered some sort of wonder material, allowing for brighter, flashier interior colors, easy cleanup, and so forth. But enter the 1970's, and that nouveau luxury started becoming all the rage, with fancier cloths, velours, more extensive use of leather, and so forth. Vinyl tried to keep up, with thicker material, nicer textures, more padding, etc, but there was only so much you could do with it, and it still had the inherent problem of being hot in the summer an cold in the winter. Nevermind the fact leather does the same thing, but does seem a bit less extreme to me.

    Some cars, like the Chrysler Cordoba, gave you a wide choice, offering a cheaper cloth, vinyl, a nicer cloth, and leather. But I think as leather became more widespread, it started to replace the nicer vinyls, and ever cheaper cloths started taking over at the low end.

    I do miss the wide variety of interior colors you used to be able to get, but I guess that's just a symptom of cost cutting. They'd rather just offer 2 or 3 generic colors that more or less go with everything, instead of a wide array, where some colors can only be used tastefully with a few exterior choices. For instance, on the 1980 Malibu, they offered interiors in black, dark blue, "camel" (a darker beige I think), "claret" (red that had just a touch of magenta in it IIRC), green, and "oyster" (probably a very light creme). The Malibu had 14 exterior colors and seven two tones (here's the brochure where I'm getting that info from).

    The black went with just about everything, while the oyster and camel were offered with most of the exterior colors. But then green was only offered with an exterior color of beige, black, white, or green. It must have been a pain to offer 6 different interior colors, in four different materials (regular Malibu cloth and vinyl and Malibu Classic cloth and vinyl).

    I had an '82 Cutlass Supreme that was a light silvery green. GM had three variations of that color that year. One was just called "Silver Green poly", and then there were two different "Light Jadestone Poly" colors (maybe they made a running change sometime in 1982?) Anyway, the interior of my Cutlass was done up to match, with a light silver/green interior, and a dark green dashboard. It was the perfect combination for that exterior color, and also worked with their "Dark Jadestone Poly", but other than that, I couldn't see that interior working well with any other exterior, except maybe white.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I blame the Germans for this trend change. From Mercedes and BMW Americans were taught that the most expensive cars and refined cars had sober interiors in "good taste". And you can't get much more somber than an 80s German car.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,974
    I blame the Germans for this trend change

    When I bought my Genesis that is exactly what the dealer told me. The interior choices were black, beige, and saddle. Not even a grey available which really stinks if you want a sliver or grey car and don't like an all black interior.

    I really wish they would bring back blue interiors, looks so sharp with a white or silver car. However, IMO the reds, greens, and golds should stay in the 70s! I remember in the mid 90s Ford brought back green interior on certain cars, it didn't last for long.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Dumb question, but what does it mean when an engine has been "blueprinted?"
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Another much-abused term that is carelessly bandied about.

    In theory, it means that an engine, prior to being finished, is pulled from an assembly line and then finished to higher tolerances of tightness and balance.

    In practice, an experienced machinist can work with a finished engine and very carefully further remove some material to get this level of precision and balance.

    However, you will see the term 'blueprinted" to describe what is merely a rebuilt engine that was done to factory specs.

    Blueprinting is in fact beyond factory specs.

    Why do we do blueprinting? For more power and for a smoother running engine. Also, by careful balancing, we can eliminate stress points in an engine.

    On the other hand, a meat-fisted machinist can remove too much material and destroy an engine in about 2 seconds.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,108
    A "blueprinted" engine, IIRC, is when all the tolerances, clearances, and specifications have been adjusted to the correct specification (as on the 'blueprint'). This often includes 'ccing' the head, which is adjusting each combustion chamber volume to the same capacity.
  • lokkilokki Member Posts: 1,200
    I've always thought that - except for racing engines where engines are run at the maximum of their rpm ranges for long periods- blueprinting was kind of pointless.

    That is, I think that the average engine today is built to tight enough tolerances that you would never see -any- improvement in gas mileage or durability in normal use let alone enough to justify the costs.

    Is that true?

    Of course, if I ever find my Alfa Spider, and get to build the performance engine I want, I'll be out in the garage with a digital scale and a file, making sure all the rods are the same weight :blush:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Probably with modern engines you'd be more apt to strengthen it with various aftermarket parts.

    Some modern engines are built so tight you can't even bore them out---if they wear, you throw them away.

    But it depends. Probably the Detroit iron still using pushrods could be improved with blueprinting.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I remember in the mid 90s Ford brought back green interior on certain cars, it didn't last for long.

    I remember that green, and as I recall, it wasn't too savory. I seem to remember it having a greasy look on the plastic surfaces. I think some blues can get that way, too. I remember the exterior green paint being fairly attractive, but it just looked better with a beige interior.

    I think red could work, if it's a decent shade of red. That "claret" I posted in that 1980 Malibu brochure is a bit much, but in its defense, I think the colors got distorted in that scan. I don't remember it having that much pink in it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,429
    My mom had a 93 Taurus with a blue interior. The car was white. It always seemed a little unusual.

    I don't mind a ligher colored interior to brighten things up - but it's almost impossible to find in a German sedan. It can be ordered, but the sheeple always seem to go for black.
  • tjc78tjc78 Member Posts: 16,974
    My car has beige interior, however the carpets are dark brown/black. Its not too bad, I really would prefer all beige even though its tougher to keep clean. A guy at work has a newer S430 white with all beige interior, its a great combo IMO, He said he had to order it, none on the lot in that combo.

    2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic

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