Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2011
    Well I'm taking teeny steps...to avoid being sucked into the old BMW Black Vortex of Death. :surprise:

    What I learned so far----I activated the battery with jumper cables and come to find out that what is happening is that the starter motor, or starter relay is not engaging. The starter isn't getting a signal.

    So, follow my thinking here:

    although it IS true that the back carpeting area is flooded, and it IS true that there is a power junction box there, still I can hear the fuel pump, and the lights work, and the dash lights up....so really, would BMW really take a wire from the front of the car, run it to the back of the car to a junction box, and then run it back up to the front of the car? This makes no sense, that rear seat flooding causes the starter not to engage.

    Whaddya' all think?

    I can't access this rear junction box without taking out (at least) the passenger seat, the console, and the carpeting. But what are the odds this causes a bad starter motor? :confuse: :confuse:

    Exploding seat belts freak me out, to be honest.
  • jwilliams2jwilliams2 Member Posts: 910
    edited July 2011
    Exploding seat belts freak me out, to be honest.

    Mercedes-Benz has had pyrotechnic pretensioners on some models since the early 80's, and all MB models have had them for many years. Lots of cars have them today. It's a small sealed system within the belt housing that's triggered electronically, so you want to be careful. Its not a big charge like an airbag, as it only takes the slack out of the seatbelt in case of a collision.
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    I am guessing one or more of the rear window regulators failed which left the windows open which allowed nature in. Am I right?

    Your reasoning is perfectly logical.

    Did it start fine right up until the point that the car was flooded?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No, it was DRIVEN to a garage, the flooding was discovered, and then it wouldn't start again. Maybe the sloshing around did something?

    Not sure how the water got in---that's ANOTHER issue entirely.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,415
    "No matter how hard I work
    No matter how long I toil
    I never shall afford
    A 7-5-0il"

    ;)

    Unknown C&D author

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,790
    Just what is this junction box? I mean, what does it house? Is it really just a junction. Is it by any chance the brain of the security system (hence why it would be in the passenger compartment) and now the car is unable to disengage the starter kill? My Nissan's talking security brain thingy was under the passenger seat, if I'm not mistaken.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    I am guessing one or more of the rear window regulators failed which left the windows open which allowed nature in. Am I right?


    One of my friends has a 2002 or so BMW 5-series that he bought used a few years ago. It developed a bad leak in the back seat area, and it turns out it had bad door seals. I wonder if that's a common BMW issue?
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    My question too. Wouldn't there have to be fuses there, to protect the downstream wiring?
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2011
    No, no fuses....unless BMW makes little tab-like fuses, size of a pill? Maybe, maybe.....hard to tell with all the crap and corrosion. In any event, no *conventional looking* fuse.

    Anway, it looks like a plastic junction box, with one large fat red cable feeding a grid. About ten wires feed into this grid and then come out and are connected, I presume, by a brass plate. Each wire unbolts from the master plate, so to speak. All the nuts are corroded into piles of rust.

    Something like this, but with more wires:

    image

    Next to that, are about 12 little flat black boxes, 1" X 1", mounted in a stack. They look like typical plug-in connectors, but in fact they too, are merely little junction boxes---one wire in, then a connecting jumping plate, then one wire out, each pair (or set of 3) covered with a tiny plastic box. About 24 wires, sitting in 12 plastic boxes, all snapped into a stackable holder. All flooded, green and corroded as well.

    Theory? One of these circuit is the anti=theft, the fuse for this circuit being in the trunk, and thus this circuit is shorted out in the junction box, making the car thinking at attempt is being made by someone to steal it.

    The car's computer does not know, of course, that nobody would be that stupid.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,790
    well, since we're both thinking anti-theft, then I think we have a working hypothesis to start with.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    "...so really, would BMW really take a wire from the front of the car, run it to the back of the car to a junction box, and then run it back up to the front of the car?"

    You must be new to German cars... ;->

    Audi 5000: The battery is in the back, and somehow the wire that activates the starter solenoid is wired through the trunk lid wiring harness. Open & close trunk a thousand or so times, wires fatigue, and no start.
    Because of the trunk lid. Pure engineering genius. I couldn't believe it, so II confirmed with my mechanic; he knew about it.

    Audi A6 (2000 vintage): Similar thing, but this time it's the passenger visor. Some wiring goes through there and if it breaks, she no starts.

    That one I only read about from an internet post through an audiphile -- FORMER audiphile -- friend, so I can't swear to it.

    But I think this answers your question. It ain't far from Ingolstadt to Munich.

    Cheers -Mathias
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    Just when I start thinking I might be ready for another BMW, I read your post...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    Luckily Stuttgart is a couple hours away :shades:

    Was it BMW that had some kind of computer that counted revolutions of the window regulator for power windows? No chance of failure there.

    "Car in good condition except it doesnt start dont know why"
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ich kann die Angst schon fühlen! :surprise:

    Well that's scary.

    I'm thinking of this approach -- remove all the wires from the junction block (and label them carefully)....then, grabbing hold of that large red feed cable that comes from the trunk battery, and with a heavy jumper wire, clamp on to each wire (or pair of wires as the case may be), and try to start the car----if on one of these jump-connections, I get the starter to engage, I know at least that the rest is worth doing.

    Their MUST be plenty of 750iLs in the wrecking yards....well not in Kansas, but surely in sunny California.

    Out of curiosity, I looked at the market for clean low mileage 750s in the late 90s range, and it looks like, if you bargain hard, you could get one for about $7500.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    So there's a wire loom running along the right side door sill...the wires are behind a plastic shield, which has both pop-off AND permanent plastic rivets that you have to break off...then the loom is secured to the plastic shield with numerous plastic wire ties, even after you detach the shield from the car. All this is protected by layers of foam, then carpeting, then an interlocked plastic trim piece which can only be removed by taking off the between-door trim and sill trim. The carpeting is conveniently tucked UNDER the power seat rails by a tiny tab of carpeting, so that you can't pull it up, so I had to make a small cut.

    And under all this, flat on the floor, is this critical junction box. :sick:
  • lemmerlemmer Member Posts: 2,689
    You'd think if they were going to be that careful with it, they'd have put it somewhere where it couldn't get wet so easily.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Must be missing something. That fat red cable that comes from the battery - it's what, #10, #8 or bigger gauge? That means it can easily carry 30-50 amps of continuous current. The wires that branch off are smaller, right? Maybe #12 or #14? If there's no fuses or other protection devices, a short on one of the smaller downstream wires could melt that wire, as there is nothing limiting the current.

    That doesn't make sense.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well there is a database I just accessed that mentions that this junction box is fused, but all I see are small black squares...are these some kind of hi-amp fuses? It's so mucky and yucky in there I can't tell.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Don't know if this pic will post clearly, but the caption states that the fuses cannot be replaced - only the entire power distribution box. Wonder if that's the same unit used in all the E32 BMWs?

    Photobucket
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh that's freakin' swell to know....I'll just pop on down to my Pep Boys and pick one of those up.... :sick:

    I guess I can test them with my ohm meter...perhaps they didn't blow...although, being completely underwater, one would think.....

    Why put in fuses that can't be replaced???? :mad:
  • steine13steine13 Member Posts: 2,825
    For the same reason that German pencils don't come with erasers.

    -Mathias
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    edited July 2011
    This is what you're really getting yourself into with a 7-Series with needs!

    750 Nightmare
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,148
    Wow...just the kind of information for those "all cars are reliable now" folks...
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    To be fair, that lemon was a 1989 or something.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,148
    True, but quite a few comments from owners of newer models.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    edited July 2011
    I wouldn't be too worried about a 2009+ 760Li in 5 years - the kinks have pretty much been worked out in newer tech. The old cars were bleeding edge, the German ideal of innovation for the sake of innovation, no matter how illogical or complicated. The latest comments there seem to be from 2002.
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    M3 E30 Cabrio for sale on ebay, currently 27 bids up to nearly $40k and reserve still not met. Looks like fun but troubling needs including DOT/EPA certification. I could live without a sound system. With the top down who needs more music? I realize these cars command attention and a price to match. Still that's a lot of money for a sporty project car which cannot be legally registered anywhere in the U.S. right now, unless I've read the seller's ad wrong.
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • wevkwevk Member Posts: 179
    "I'll just pop on down to my Pep Boys and pick one of those up"

    Ask for Manny, he's the one with the glasses :)
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I am now on the hunt for a used junction box.

    Aw, I already knew that the BMW 750iL is probably the worst car in the world...yer preachin' to the choir... :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    Supercool, but yeah, it'll never be able to be licensed unless you can get away with some bribery. Maybe one could register themselves as a dealer and use it as a demo car or whatever loophole exists - I know one does, which is how old GT-Rs are on the road. That or move to Canada, which has a much more logical private import system.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    Here in Maryland, a 1991 model year car would qualify for antique tags, which means no emissions test and no inspection. So I wonder if that would be enough to get you out of those legal technicalities?
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    edited July 2011
    The BMW M3 Cabrio on ebay is probably a different animal than the historic vehicles registered by states. Since it has not been federalized then it's unlikely that any state law/agency would trump the DOT. You're on the right track though with exploring an exemption for older vehicles. I think the DOT exempts import vehicles which are at least 25 years old from the compliance regulations. There may be some paperwork/fees/etc., but at least it's an option for importing a 1986 or older car without compliance headaches. I can also imagine that some people treasure that M3 so much that they're willing to take the plunge now instead of waiting for it to "age" off the bad boy list. :shades:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No way that car is staying in this country without full DOT/EPA certification, which is going to cost someone a *lot* of money. Since the car came here under some temporary status while on its way to Japan, I would suspect it is already under threat of deportation or destruction, and is probably under a secured bond right now. Best buyer for this car is someone out of the country, otherwise you'd be nuts to buy it.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Why put in fuses that can't be replaced????

    Probably because the fault they're supposed to protect against (a short in the wiring to chassis) is considered a highly unlikely scenario. Something that may only be expected to occur in a severe crash that distorts the chassis or some sort of intrusion (guard rail?) into the body. There are probably fuses further downstream, and more accessible, to protect against load faults.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    You can always (carefully) bypass the junction box, temporarily, using some clip leads made with alligator clips and #18 or #20 wire until you see if you can get any of the downstream loads working.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    Maybe buy a storage unit in Canada and give it another 5 years. Could be worth it to someone.

    I wonder who had to bribe who for our asinine and arbitrary 25 year rule.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yep that is my intention. No luck so far finding a replacement part. Sent out 6 inquiries---all ignored completely. Great, just great.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2011
    I don't really see this car as an investment grade of automobile, as fun as it might be, regardless if it were legal or not. Old M3s don't seem to be much desired and they do miserably at the high end auctions. It's the new ones people want, because what was once fast isn't any more, and old M3 motors aren't the most durable, to be polite about it.

    Sure, they'll bring a premium over an ordinary '91 325, but not nearly enough to justify the expense of DOT/EPA certification, which could easily punch out $10,000 and even end quite disastrously for the buyer.

    Way too risky for not a lot of gain, IMO.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    It's more freakshow than investment, I think. The E30 has a huge obsessive fanboy following, and I am sure a few of them would be less than logical to have such bragging rights as to own the "only one".
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Very true observation but in this case it'll be the "only one" relegated to use as a monument in your garage. I suppose you could trailer it from place to place and never register it, or start your own "museum"--both those would beat EPA/DOT regs. Too bad this car was broadcast all over eBay--the Feds may already be on it.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    Just wait 5 years and bring it in, unless the laws change between now and then.

    Pretty sad use of my tax money, IMO - especially with so many other problems out there...but in Amerika, you get the laws you pay for, and these import restrictions were certainly bought and paid for. In other developed nations, you can bring in pretty much anything that's physically safe. Funny that boring old Canada has a more interesting automotive scene than here.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,148
    I didn't think the 25 year date applied to DOT/EPA approval.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it's not fair to automakers who met all the regulations before importation. If BMW didn't want to certify the Euro M3 back then too bad.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    Well it's not fair to automakers who met all the regulations before importation. If BMW didn't want to certify the Euro M3 back then too bad.

    Eh, just do like what some people do when they bring in those Euro-spec Smart cars that supposedly use half the fuel of the ones we got here. Get it titled as a "1974 NSU" or whatever! :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    Why is it perfectly fair in other places that are more or less more developed than us? These laws and the egoists who enforce them are pretty reprehensible IMO, especially in this day and age.

    These aren't new cars, these are 20 year old toys.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,100
    These aren't new cars, these are 20 year old toys.

    Exactly. I don't think "fair" has anything to do with it when you're talking about something that old. And let's face it, how many people are going to buy a 20 year old M3 and use it as a daily driver? Letting that car on the road has no bearing whatsoever to the auto makers still in production.

    Heck, if I wanted to, I could go buy a gas guzzling big-block, out-of-tune 70's boat that would put out a hell of a lot more pollution than that M3 would. And it would all be perfectly legal. So, how is it fair to let something like that on the but not fair to let a 20 year old M3 into the country?

    What about those Porsche 959s or whatever, that were banned years ago? Can you get them over here legally, yet?
  • omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    edited July 2011
    A used car sold on ebay or BJ doesn't hit any manufacturer's bottom line or "fairness" button. If a manufacturer is found to be dodging certification on new car sales competition with other makes, well that would be different.

    This is just a case where car nuts and aftermarket vendors "conspire" to make a bit of fun out of life, the universe, and everything on wheels. Sounds fair to me. :)

    edit: I still think $40k is crazy money for a fun+zippy project car like that M3 but it doesn't seem to be scaring off bidders. Somebody really really likes those things! :shades:
    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    I wonder what they can argue, that someone bringing in a 1991 car will stop them from buying a 2011 model? What's the logic? Of course, they don't have to defend themselves.

    Sounds like nothing more than another make work program for highly paid untouchable wannabe cops in the EPA/DOT. I wonder how many enforcers of this stuff bring in 6 figure salaries.

    959 is 25 years old now, so they should be easier to bring in. Bill Gates tried to get one in back in the day and had to work on it for eons - he was a force in the "show and display" style rules that let a handful of freakshow cars in.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,148
    I don't worry about it. Simple rule, it has to meet Fed. requirements. Sure it keeps some neat stuff out, but it really requires little enforcement, that answer's "No"!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    I bet the enforcement group has a budget and some salaries that many real world workers would kill for. Just more federal waste. It is simple though, and probably makes sense if logic and accountability are discarded.
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