Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

ab348

There is some truth in what you write, but there is also a whole lot of revisionist history there.

Detroit was spectacularly inept at a few things in the '60s and '70s. One of those was their total inability to successfully convince federal legislators to do things that made sense for their business.

It has been well-documented that the emissions standards of the 70s were a moving target. Every time the manufacturers adopted technology to meet next years standards, those for the following year changed. Then CAFE standards were layered on top of that. With primitive to nonexistent computer technology and Detroit's large-sized fleet - the types of cars most people bought back then - they were doubly hammered. Imports generally had no worries about CAFE standards and could concentrate on the emissions front.

When gasoline went from 40 cents a gallon to $1.20 in about a 6-month period in early '74 that did more for the imports success than any design or manufacturing wizardry they may have employed.

qbrozen

I've requested he add more pics, but assuming it is as described, what would this be worth?

benjaminh

"When gasoline went from 40 cents a gallon to $1.20 in about a 6-month period in early '74 that did more for the imports success than any design or manufacturing wizardry they may have employed."

I agree with this.

"Detroit was spectacularly inept at a few things in the '60s and '70s. One of those was their total inability to successfully convince federal legislators to do things that made sense for their business."

This one is a stretch, I think.

First, they were dragged kicking and screaming and opposed it all the way. And because of that opposition CAFE regulations were unchanged from about 1975 to 2009. Those decades of stagnation that Detroit engineered with it lobbyists, which kept CAFE flat for more than 25 years, is part of the reason we're in the mess we are in today with gas prices.

And pre federal regs, say c. 1964, your average Detroit car was a fairly dangerous gas guzzler that created a lot of pollution. A lot of them are classics, I agree! I myself like a lot of them, but they weren't for the most part good cars in many ways. Slowly but surely safety, pollution, and mpg rules were put in place. CAFE really helped save American car makers in the 1970s by focusing them on efficiency. Because of CAFE, for instance, by 1978 Ford had a midsize car called the Fairmont. It was a pretty good car for its era, in some ways equal to or better than a Honda Accord. And Ford sold a huge number of those cars--and so arguably CAFE helped them with their profitability. In terms of quality and engineering, however, Ford improved fitfully and slowly, while companies like Honda improved very quickly. By 1990 a Honda Accord was way beyond the pitiful Ford Tempo. And even today I can say that having just driven a new Fusion that the Accord's engine is way, way beyond it in terms of refinement. At this point I don't think you can blame the feds for that. Ford just hasn't yet wanted to build an engine like Honda builds an engine for its midsize cars.

When it comes to pollution controls, I have to say having grown up in LA that by c. 1975 the air was a very-dangerous-to-your-health soup of toxins. People with asthma and other issues suffered a lot. It was truly horrible for about one third of the days in a year. Because of pollution controls and catalytic converters I could tell the air was clearing up quite significantly by 1985. And in the 25 years since then it's gotten better and better each decade in spite of huge increases in population, cars, miles driven, etc. The number of "unhealthful" days is down by something like 90%. Detroit would not have done that on their own. They needed to have someone make them do it.

benjaminh

I have to admit that is a very cute car!

Were they still death traps at that point, or have they been retroactively fixed?

I saw a hardtop Corvair from c.1962 flip upside down when I was a kid with seemingly little provocation.

Mr_Shiftright

Well I think you have a good handle on that aspect of the "emissions wars", but this doesn't change the overall spirit of the times. I don't think it is "revisionist" to suggest that Detroit was hostile to government regulation, because the other alternative would be that they embraced it but for a few details. It's got to be one or the other, and IMO history leans more towards Detroit hostility than Detroit cooperation, by a pretty fair margin.

RE: BMW 750iL PROJECT

Well, when last we met our hero, he was searching for the fused junction box that was flooded while positioned in front of the passenger seat floorboards.

Holy Unobtanium Batman! No junction box to be found, new OR used. (at least not so far).

This leaves me with the task of somehow removing rust and crude from each and every terminal of an 8-gang power distribution board. Each of the 8 poles have 2 or 3 wires attached on push clips. Soooo, you pull on the wire, and the push clip, being rusted, remains, while the wire pulls out.

Some of the locknuts holding the studs are so corroded that a socket wrench no longer fits around them. Nice.

This is a challenge, to say the least.

I'm thinking maybe of getting an 8-gang distribution block from a Marine application.

Turns out, looking at the diagrams, that the circuit for the starter DOES seem to originate from the trunk fuse box. Say what? :surprise:

Well, I can't really DAMAGE this car---I mean, what would a non-running, high mileage somewhat dented 1998 BMW 750iL be worth with a fried electrical system?

SIDENOTE: this distribution box IS fused, with little flat 50 or 80 amp fuses---none of which were blown while being underwater!!

SAY WHAT AGAIN? :surprise:

tjc78

May I suggest going to a BMW specific forum and asking a few questions. There may be someone who knows where a 750 may lay in junkyard, or has gone through what you are attempting.

texases

Good idea - any 'pick 'n pull' yards in your area with a 750? I'd think they'd start piling up around now. How much work to pull the offending block? Might you just cut the attached wires, intall it and attach the wires with crimp connectors?

Mr_Shiftright

Definitely...I'm going to have to branch out whilst I put this project on hold.

NEW PROJECT: helping a friend replace the clutch on his 2004 Mini Cooper. Neither of us have done this before, and I'd like to learn how.

This does NOT look easy....

More to come.

srs_49

Because of CAFE, for instance, by 1978 Ford had a midsize car called the Fairmont. It was a pretty good car for its era, in some ways equal to or better than a Honda Accord. And Ford sold a huge number of those cars

I owned one of those, a station wagon. Biggest POS I've ever owned. Worse than the '63 Rambler my dad gave me, and worse than the '73 Fiat 128 SL I bought (and that's really saying something). If that was the best Detroit could do, it's no wonder they tanked!

BTW, the rest of your post I agreed with .

qbrozen

Yes, it was worked out by then. According to Wiki, '63 ends the swingarm generation.

andre1969

I always thought the Corvair had swing axles right up through the end in 1969? There was some kind of improvement though around 1963...a sway bar, maybe?

I've also read that the 1961-63 Pontiac Tempest, which also used swing axles in back, but had the engine up front, was far more dangerous than the Corvair ever was, but somehow Ralph Nader missed that little scandal-in-the-making.

benjaminh

lmao...

We owned one too actually! Tell us about yours...

It didn't seem that bad to me, but we only kept it for about a year even though we bought it new. It was the second year it was made, however, and maybe they'd worked out the kinks. Plus ours had the 6 cylinder engine, which was probably needed.

Ours was a wagon too. Pretty loaded. It seemed quite luxe compared to our 69 Bus. That Fairmont had AC, marshmallow suspension, sound insulation, ok stereo. Chocolate brown it was...

andre1969

IIRC, the Fairmont had a lot of recalls when it first came out, but later '78 models, and the '79's, were fairly decent for the time, when it came to reliability. Consumer Reports tended to rate them average to better than average for the most part. I think the V-8 models were rated down a bit, though, more like average to worse than average.

They were VERY lightweight cars for their size. I think the 2- and 4-door sedans started around 2500-2600 lb. Just going on memory, I think a '78 Malibu would've started around 3000 lb, and a Granada would have been close to that. An Aspen/Volare or Nova would have probably been around 3200-3300 lb.

As a result, they got pretty good fuel economy, and could make do with smaller engines.

The stripper models were pretty bare-bones inside. I think they even still had exposed metal on the door panels. The upper trim levels could be pretty nice, though.

My grandparents had an '81 Granada coupe and '85 LTD sedan, both offshoots of the Fairmont. I thought they were decent cars at the time. Neither gave any serious troubles, but each one was also traded after 4 years. I do remember the LTD overheating a few times, though.

When I had my learner's permit, I spent a lot of time practicing driving and parallel parking in that LTD. I thought it felt more nimble, and accelerated better than the 1980 Malibu that my Mom ultimately gave me, but the Malibu felt like a more substantial car, and was a lot roomier inside. Not so much in the published specs (headroom, legroom, etc), but in details they don't measure, like how much the driveshaft hump, transmission hump, rear wheel cutouts, etc, protrude into the useable space.

qbrozen

oh, maybe. Can't say I'm terribly familiar with them.

Shifty, any idea on the value of that ebay one I posted?

texases

Re - the Ebay Corvair - wonder why no pics of most of the interior, the trunk, or the engine compartment?

qbrozen

that's what I emailed the guy. I suggested that 7 pics of the passenger side of the car was overkill and he'd be better off using some of that space to show OTHER angles of the car, the interior, undercarriage, and engine.

stevedebi

"I owned one of those, a station wagon. Biggest POS I've ever owned. Worse than the '63 Rambler my dad gave me, and worse than the '73 Fiat 128 SL I bought (and that's really saying something). If that was the best Detroit could do, it's no wonder they tanked! "

I also owned one; it was one of the best cars I ever owned. Trouble free for 130K, at which point the body got a bit too rusted. I did have the 5.0 engine.

benjaminh

Andre's right that they were light for the time. I remember reading an article in Motor Trend in 1977 or so about how they'd put the car on a serious diet compared to Ford's other models. And it was a unibody, wasn't it? It was rear drive, but just just moving away from body on frame meant that it saved some weight there.

It was still probably a slug when it had the 2.3 engine--but actually a lot less of a slug than our 3000 pounds VW Bus with the 1.8 engine!

Our Fairmont Wagon was a 1979--and because demand was strong, Consumer Reports liked them, and we were not good negotiators, we ended up paying close to full list price for it, which was I recall was c.$6500. It didn't give us any trouble, but it was meant as a replacement car for our Bus. And when it came down to it neither of my parents wanted to give up the 7 passenger + cargo capacity of that bus for the 5 passenger + cargo of the Fairmont. We could have, they just didn't want to for some strange reason. They just loved that Bus that later nearly killed us.

So we sold the Fairmont when it was just a year old for $5800 I recall. And then we bought the $3700 Datsun 210 and pocketed the 2k difference.

Mr_Shiftright

Can't find your link on the Corvair. Repost it here and I'll take a look for you!

the shifty one

benjaminh

When you get to that, shifty, please let us know how it goes. I'm wondering if there is maybe something wrong with the clutch design of the early Minis, given that you and your friend both have worn out ones. When you take a look at this actual unit, let us know what it looks like compared to other clutches you've seen. So is it pretty hard to get to in a Mini.

Mr_Shiftright

We're into it now and it's a very *very* ugly job. Maybe if I worked in a MINI slave factory and did it every day for a month I'd feel differently...

Mr_Shiftright

Okay 65 Corvair Monza convertible with very little descriptive photos or details---but presuming it is very very *nice*, a #2 local show car, and needs nothing, I'm thinking around $10,000 is high retail, or on a good eBay day with a few drunks bidding, maybe $11,500 is all the money on this particular planet in this particular galaxy. I myself if I were shopping on the blind on this car wouldn't bid much over $7500.

The entry way to the room marked Corvairs For Sale is not exactly a whirring turnstile of activity in the best of times.

benjaminh

Can you post a pic of "ugly"? Or when you get a chance give a little more of a description. We want to feel your pain...or maybe experience Schadenfreude?

qbrozen

That is the ballpark I figured. Thanks. Of course, I would not be surprised if his reserve is well over that.

srs_49

Thing that sticks in my mind was having to get the transmission rebuilt at 35K miles (out of warranty, so out of pocket). No excuse for that.

And the in-line 6 we had had no power at all. My wife would get passed by garbage trucks coming up the one hill into town :P .

andre1969

Thing that sticks in my mind was having to get the transmission rebuilt at 35K miles (out of warranty, so out of pocket). No excuse for that.

My grandparents had a '77 Granada, with the 250 inline-6, which had to be rebuilt. Fortunately it was still under warranty when it failed. I remember them saying that it "dropped its transmission in the driveway". Being a little kid at the time, I didn't realize that "dropped its transmission" was just slang for a dead transmission...I thought that the trans had literally fallen out of the car!

I guess that was the C4 transmission? I was always under the impression that, other than slipping out of park and running down your kids in the driveway, those C4 and C6 transmissions were actually fairly reliable? Of course, it WAS the 1970's, so even components that were traditionally reliable were often assembled much less precision, or they'd cheapen some part here and there, so it was more likely to fail than its predecessor.

omarman

Sorry to be contentious about this, but I think most auto journalists would back me up on that one--

No worries from me regarding any disagreement/contention/debate...it's the only way really.

Re: consensus of auto journalists
I'm not so sure that I would want journalists on my side in this debate. Lots of stinky shoes dropping now from those ranks.

Re: Detroit hostility vs. Government hostility
Originally, the rap against Detroit on DOT-EPA conformity was: "The Japanese merely conformed to it, as is their custom, and beat the stuffings out of Detroit as a consequence." I replied that Detroit absolutely did conform/comply with the feds. But now that verbiage has changed: The current word being posted to describe Detroit's compliance history is "hostility" toward DOT-EPA regs. Well if compliance or conformity isn't enough then what is the standard? You want to talk hostility? The federal government filed antitrust actions against GM long ago when it was successful in the 60s. Wouldn't you love to see Detroit become that "sick" again?

Re: Mozart vs. Royal Decree
Off with the General's head! Haha! I can appreciate hyperbole when used to illustrate an argument even when I don't agree with the underlying premise. At least your "Mozart" example demands greatness as a result. Did the federal government regs produce greatness in the domestic auto industry?

I may find a "Mustang" or "Corvette" example to like in the public school system too. But that's not my endorsement of the entire, rotten apple pie masterpiece of the U.S. Education Department! (That's my own humorous-hyperbole which is not intended to offend either Mozart lovers or Music Appreciation teachers.)

Re: This is NOT TO SAY that this was the "goal" of the EPA---to make faster cars---but that was a most desirable side-effect.

What was the federal "goal" with Detroit in the 70s? Conformity? Check. And what was the most desired side effect expected when regulating Detroit pegs through a Datsun B210 hole? To change Detroit's future? Check. Why is Detroit like a canceled check?

qbrozen

His estimation of 85% is WAAAYY different than mine.

michaellno

Ummm, yeah - guess he thinks that the interior and trim pieces are something you can address over a couple of weekends.

qbrozen

and let's not forget that sad looking engine bay.

texases

Actually, this is the first time I'm not going to argue with him, IF the engine/tranny are in good shape, the top actually works, the body's rust free, and the paint's in good shape. The seats and carpet would fit into the 80-85% window. But...what's up with the front wheel wells?

qbrozen

but he's saying 80-85% RESTORED.

That's a whole lot different than just saying "its there."

andre1969

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think of the white top with the pale yellow body on that Cutlass? That yellow is close to the color of my '67 Catalina, but mine has a black top. Gets deathly hot in the summer, although mine also has a black interior, which doesn't help.

I had thought about trying a white top the next time it needs to be replaced (hopefully years away), but I imagine that the white would be a pain to keep clean. And, while it doesn't clash with the pale yellow as bad as I thought it would, I think the black top is a much better contrast.

Besides, usually when I'm driving the Catalina, the top's down, anyway, so I guess the top color really doesn't matter! :P

Mr_Shiftright

Well, just what I'm SEEING says another $3,000 at least, maybe more. His 80% assessment depends entirely on what this car looks like underneath. If that's just an old landscape of rust and rotted bushings, then no way it's 80%. Given that the photos do not inspire confidence in a high level of craftsmanship, I'm thinking that when done the car is worth around $12,000 (a #3--clean daily driver condition).

So really, the current bid at $5K seems close to what you'd want to pay.

Mr_Shiftright

Okay, this is my definition of an "ugly" job (clutch on a 2004 Mini Cooper)

http://s1097.photobucket.com/albums/g353/mrshiftright/

And my friend is a very highly skilled professional mechanic, so it was done "by the book".

qbrozen

had to remove body panels, huh? That does pretty much suck.

Sure hope my GTI doesn't require such measures.

Mr_Shiftright

The whole front of the car is gone (it is designed to be pulled off).

Considering that I could have the engine out of a Porsche 911 in about 1/4 the time, yeah, it sucks.

so figure out in California, labor at a really good shop is $135/hr or so, and then add for a dual-mass flywheel and a clutch pak, and you're in well over $2K for a clutch on a car worth maybe $8K (his, not mine).

Will the day come when a clutch job literally "totals" a car?

xwesx

I'm not even sure what I am looking at there.... did you have to pull the whole front end off the car?! :surprise:

xwesx

Ah, whoops... need to refresh before posting.

I would say that all cars reach that point eventually. I imagine that, for my car, a clutch job at a shop might technically total it.

The thing with old (daily driven, no collector value) cars is that you don't decide to keep them running as an exercise in how much does the repair cost versus how much is the car worth; you keep them running based on the cost of doing so versus the cost of an alternate vehicle. In that mindset, the repair often wins.

Mr_Shiftright

And here (photo on the left) is the submerged BMW 750iL fused junction box that I am attempt to remove and clean up. Nice, huh?

http://s1097.photobucket.com/albums/g353/mrshiftright/

Mr_Shiftright

Yes you pull the front fascia off...it's kind of on rails and you loosen it and it comes off like a leggo toy, sorta kinda.

Its rather impressive that in a well-equipped shop using all the latest tools, it still takes 12 hours of labor (at least the first time).

I would guess that a MINI mechanic who does this all day could get it down to 8.

lemko

Sheesh! That thing looks like it was salvaged from the Titanic!

Mr_Shiftright

Scary thing is I'm not even sure where the water came from. I pumped out a full bucket of it.

texases

My money's on a plugged sunroof drain...well, not MY money...

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, or clogged drains in the fresh air vents under the wipers.

qbrozen

well, if its anything like the 5-series, what I've read happens is the vapor barrier inside the rear doors separates from the panel. Coupled with clogged drains in the doors causes the rainwater to overflow into the car.

ab348

I own one of these (hardtop, not convert) so I can comment on some things.

I would hope that the stainless and chrome trim that this car lacks is included in the sale. Otherwise, good luck finding some of those pieces. Same with the front wheel wells, though those are easy to find. I would need to find a factory air cleaner to rid it of that aftermarket junk. The interior just needs some $ thrown at it.

Car has some things going for it - it's a convertible, appears to have been converted to front disk brakes, has the sport steering wheel. If sound mechanically and bodywise it isn't a bad project depending on the reserve price. One of these (a convertible) that I am familiar with locally that needs paint and probably a new interior (not bad but tired) is for sale for $10K. I don't think I'd pay that knowing the car, but who can say - convertibles, especially GM A-body convertibles, seem to be well-valued.

I should offer to sell this guy my perfect '68 Cutlass AM radio that is sitting on a shelf to fill the hole in the dash.

benjaminh

Sheeeoooot. Taking off the whole front end of the car to get to the clutch?? What were those Mini engineers thinking...frak.

benjaminh

You are in a small car and rear ended by a truck at 43 mpg. You can imagine that the pure physics of this makes this bad. But it's even worse than you thought, I wager, if you look at this German crash test. The "magic" happens at 1:30 if you don't want to hear the long German prologue...

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/07/thats-not-a-crash-test-this-is-a-crash-- test/

I guess when you see the truck coming you try to drive out of the way? But what if you can't...

Mr_Shiftright

Well the cars were lined up in front of a wall, which is an unlikely scenario. I mean, it's possible but more likely the truck would, in real life, just propel the car into other cars, creating a lot of give.