Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemko

Shoot, a convertible Metro is almost as much of a "girl car" as a VW Golf Cabriolet. I'd have asked him why he was driving his little sister's car!

benjaminh

Funny!! Yeah, even to me they never seemed like "real cars." More of a joke. If they were even 6 inches longer, a couple inches wider, and a couple of inches taller, they might be on the very small side but still be considered a car. But....yeah. They look kinda like clown cars I have to admit. At least in the US. In Europe and much of the rest of the world cars that size are more common.

To me the Mini is a very classy and nice car. Very small. But still a real car. But that's about as low as my eyes have adjusted after the giant vehicles of the last two decades. The Fiat 500 still looks a little silly to me. And the Fiat doesn't even get particularly good mpg--38 hwy. Less than an Elantra!

Mr_Shiftright

If it's German, you can be sure it's going to be a) expensive to fix and b) probably difficult to fix. Not that other cars aren't hard to fix but the Germans do seem to have a real national pride in doing things in as complicated a fashion as possible, to get that "extra bit" of performance.

As for collectibility, I don't think any mass-produced modern car has much of a chance of ever being worth the cost of restoration. Only cars made in limited numbers have a chance IMO and those "limited numbers" have to be due to a deliberate cut in production, not because nobody wanted one and it died on the vine.

benjaminh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jUE_VjGuyM

benjaminh

"Turn left! Don't make me destroy you! Your journey to the dark side is almost complete. You've reached your destination. Impressive. Most impressive."

xwesx

Funny, but I can imagine it getting old real quick.

michaellno

When I first got my TomTom, I downloaded the Sean Connery voice track. Was fun for about a week or two, then I switched back to one of the standard voices.

"You have reached your destination. Shaken, not stirred."

garv214

I was looking at this car out on Craigslist
323 sport wagon

I have communicated with the seller (original owner) who has been absolutely meticulous about maintaining the car and retaining the maintenance history. It seems that all of the common trouble items have been addressed/replaced on this car. (auto transmission, radiator, window regulators...) in addition to some of the more expensive routine maintenance items (timing belt/hoses and belts, brakes, a/c serviced). I am going to "lay hands" on the car this weekend to drive it and review the maintenance records in detail.

Any thoughts on additional questions/items of concern on a miled up BMW? We used to own a 2000 328i and a 1996 A4, so I know the maintenance on a German car will be more expensive and intensive than my Mazda, but I want to minimize my future surprises for the next 3-4 years, which is my timeframe for keeping this rig.

Also what do you think is a fair market price for the car? The asking price is towards retail, but a lot of "good will" has been put back into the car over the past year or so...

Your thoughts?

Thanks!

Mr_Shiftright

Price seems fair if the car is pristine...I'd offer $6500 if you love it.

Like any used German car, you can expect it to nickel and dime you.

qbrozen

i agree that the price is fair.

but, what happened to the trans? Since when are these a weak spot for bimmer? I was always under the impression they were quite reliable?

lemmer

I've always heard E46 automatic transmissions were 100-120K replacement items on average. I can't back it up, but I've heard it more than once.

garv214

but, what happened to the trans? Since when are these a weak spot for bimmer? I was always under the impression they were quite reliable?

Well, I had popped over to the BMW forum to see what others were seeing as issues on these cars. It seems that the auto transmission tends to fail (cannot find reverse) after 100K and is expensive to fix. It seems that a number of automakers (e.g. Honda) are having automatic transmission issues after 100K. The window regulators on the 3 series seems to be another weak point (~$500/pop), along with the radiator.

I don't mind these issues per se, seeing as I am buying it second hand and since I didn't shell out the $36K for a new one, so long as they have been addressed by the current owner and/or I can factor them into my offer price.

I was thinking along the lines of Shifty and going with an offer of 6.5K if I really like it.

Mr_Shiftright

My feeling is that 120K, just about any automatic on any car could give up the ghost. If automatic transmissions lasted as long as engines, you'd see as many engine shops as transmission shops in the world, but you don't.

lemmer

Another reason I am afraid of my Lexus with 225K on its original transmission. It has been well serviced, but good grief, things don't last forever.

And that really makes me want to seek out a manual tranny car (but maybe not one with a clutch like your MINI).

qbrozen

well, I think a big contributor is all the manufacturers telling consumers that changing the trans fluid is never necessary. That's just ridiculous. Not to mention... why wouldn't they want to add that extra maintenance items so their dealers could make more money on service??

fintail

Spent several hours cleaning up the old car after it sat outside for a few weeks...looks good enough for the show next week, and really turned some heads too. Running smooth as silk, although the first few miles seemed a little rough - I think it was mad.

But now there's something new and weird. In the first few miles I heard a distinct whining noise from the engine area, to me it sounds like that kind of high pitched engine speed related whine that some modern motorcycles make. It stopped after a few miles, I think - it wasn't terribly loud, so road and engine noise could hide it inside the car. I am thinking maybe the generator is being funny.

srs_49

Bearing would make sense. I'm sure you would recognize a belt slipping.

fintail

Engine bearing? Damn I hope not.

Mr_Shiftright

No I think he means generator bearing. You may now resume breathing. :P

explorerx4

My '02 Explorer supposedly didn't need a transmission fluid change, but I did it at 30k and 60k. It failed at 89k.
About to cross over the 36k mileage milestone, my 20 year old Mustang still has the original transmission fluid.
It doesn't seem to shift worse or better than it ever has.

fintail

Damn I hope so. I can deal with a generator, not so much an engine. What would be signs of a failing engine bearing?

Generator was last rebuilt in 1999, so I guess it could fail again. I've had the car for so long now that old repairs are aging off.

omarman

knocking or "thumping" which doesn't go away while engine is running. Loss of oil pressure. Downhill from there. Not at all like the "whining" noise that went away after a few miles.

fintail

Ok good...no knocking or anything like that, the engine is as smooth and powerful (relatively) as normal. It's an old car, I need to remember it will do weird things sometimes.

tjc78

It failed at 89k.

My buddy's 04 trans just went at about 130K on his Explorer and I don't think he ever changed the fluid. Go figure.

my 20 year old Mustang still has the original transmission fluid.

At this point I don't think I would touch it. The biggest danger to any Ford 5.0L/AOD equipped car is the TV bushing. If you have never changed yours DO IT. It is a one dollar part that holds the linkage in place. If it breaks and you drive the car it will equal cooked tranny. Ask me how I know

lemko

Me too! Happened to a 1989 Mercury Grand Marquis LS I once owned.

srs_49

Yes, you're right. I should have been more precise.

explorerx4

What's a TV bushing?

tjc78

It holds the cable in place on the throttle body that controls the transmission. Ford used a plastic bushing that often failed. The replacements are brass. Next time you have it in for service have it checked.

If you are driving it and your accelerator pedal starts to feel funny and the trans is shifting weird (or not at all) stop driving it ASAP

On my 89 Grand Marquis this happened and I burned the trans, on my 89 LTC I knew better and when it went I had the car towed and saved the transmission on that one.

andre1969

What's a TV bushing?

Dunno what the proper word is, but Archie Bunker used to call them "trans-versals" :P

andre1969

Low mileage 1983 M-body New Yorker.

Lemko, this might be just the car to get you out of that Grand Marquis!

srs_49

And just think - in Maryland you could put historic tags on it and not have to worry about the smog test!

I'm trying to see if I can figure out where those photos are taken. May be in the state park that runs through Elkridge.

fintail

One pic looks like there's a garage in the background...maybe just a lushly tended suburban lot.

berri

That Chrysler isn't on Andre's property is it - oh no, I hear the guv'ment knockin' on his door again!

andre1969

That Chrysler isn't on Andre's property is it - oh no, I hear the guv'ment knockin' on his door again!

Oh LORD no...the only way my yard would ever look that nice would be if a developer came through and tore everything down and put up a golf course! :P

And, I've learned to always make sure my '79 NY'er has its butt-end to the street, so that the tag can be viewed.

I have a feeling a county inspector might be coming through again before two long. The people who own the abandoned-looking house two doors down are starting to hoard cars again. This time last year, they had an old white school bus and a bunch of wrecked/dismantled cars. They finally cleared that out. But lately, there's been a '98-02 Corolla that would come and go. Then, one day I saw it sitting in the yard with the hood and trunk open. And a few days later, I noticed that it didn't have tags on it. And just yesterday, I spotted an '02 or so Intrepid in the yard, with no tags...beautiful shade of pale blue that they called "Butane Blue". Nice color, but I dunno if it's good marketing to use things that can blow up as names for car colors!

omarman

I dunno if it's good marketing to use things that can blow up as names for car colors!

Oh I don't know...I like the name Butane Blue and when I googled it with Intrepid it did look pretty nice. So maybe Chrysler could boost sales with a fiery paint color pallet:

Petrol Amber
Ethanol Smoke
Incendiary Yellow
Agent Orange
Ballistic Black
Gunpowder Gray
Greek Beater Blue
Redcoat Riot
Barry My Treasure Gold

Eh, maybe not. You're probably right...we're probably stuck with Volvo Beige Metallic or something a bit more passive and safe.

Mr_Shiftright

Has anyone ever tried to paint an entire car with spray cans?

How about a paint roller or paint brush?

omarman

I haven't tried it but years ago I found a topic on moparts explaining how to paint cars with a paint roller. The '69 Charger below was supposedly painted with a roller and tremclad real orange paint. That thread is still up but it's over 40 pages now!

andre1969

Has anyone ever tried to paint an entire car with spray cans?

I tried to touch up the header panel on my 1980 Malibu with a spray paint can. It actually came out pretty decent, but then I tried to do the hood. Not nearly as successful. It was horribly faded though, so I really didn't make it any worse than it had been!

On the subject of Malibu abuse, one of my friends in college mentioned that his Dad had once painted a '78 or so Malibu with a roller, or brush, or something. The end result was horrible, but at that point I think it was more to keep it from rusting than anything else.

xwesx

I have a friend who really likes old military rigs. He repainted an M37, "Lucille," with rattle cans; I think it took something like 36 of them! It looked very nice (even) when he was done, but he took a lot of time on it. Of course, the color was a flat olive? green, so that itself probably helps to hide minor variations.

explorerx4

Thanks for the explanation. I just checked around the TB area and everything looks ok, Maybe by 1991 it was changed.
Next time in for service? It has never really had any service.
Had a cable rerouted once, let someone else change the oil once, had the brakes inspected once, and replaced the tires once.
That's it in 20 years (as of August 15).
I have done the replacements of the oil/filter, air filter and battery.

toomanyfumes

We painted my '70 Gremlin with rattle can primer. It took a lot more paint than I thought it would but it looked decent from about 15 feet away :sick:

lemmer

Cayman S story. The short version is a guy is doing some "moderate" laps on a race track and the engine just grenades. Disregarding whether we have sympathy for the guy or not, did the days when Porsches were made to drive to the track and then on the track end about the time they started putting radiators in them?

Mr_Shiftright

Well I ask you, is it a coincidence that when Porsche goes racing they use the basic block from a 993?

Many of these new cars are "hot" but I do wonder about their endurance under severe duress. My friend blew up his new Corvette motor racing in Nevada as well.

One thing you gotta say about Ferrari---those engines are ready for the track.

qbrozen

What is your opinion on a '72 250c coupe?
I'm waiting for more info and pics from the seller since the ad was sorely lacking, but what is your opinion on the car in general?

qbrozen

Ok. The guy gave me a couple of responses and put up pics.

He tells me the A/C doesn't work, the odometer reads 15k, and there is rust "under the door panels" (I'll assume he means rockers).

What do you think?

Of course, the wife's opinion is all that matters, and she hasn't given it yet. She'll like the exterior color ... not so much the interior. It should fit in the garage since it is only about 1.5 inches longer than the Saab was. Just a matter of whether she will accept a non-convertible toy car.

texases

Not a fan of the paint scheme, but that's a carb in there, right? I'd much rather have the injected engine, did in come in a 3l?

Edit - just checked, it did come with a 2.8l injected (280CE) starting in '72. I'd much rather have one of those...

Mr_Shiftright

What are your expectations for this car? Fun? Investment? Tinkering? Club touring?

These are fairly handsome cars, but rather pedestrian and not much loved by anyone (as you can see from the bidding, or lack thereof). You might tire of it quickly, not sure.

fintail

It looks nice, but as you have already noticed, look out for rust. Inspect every inch for rust. The door bottoms themselves also like to rust on old MB, maybe he is lucky and that's the greatest problem. Bodywork is much more important than mechanical issues on these. Being a C, it is a base model with carbs, so keep that in mind too. Interior looks like tex to me, so it should wear well. This one predates huge bumpers and horrible pollution controls, so that's a positive. Not bad cars, kind of elegant in a 70s way, kind of like a small Buick with high build quality than anything sporty, they are still cheap and probably will be for some time.

qbrozen

Expectations? Just something cool that's going to be used for very pedestrian duties until it dies or we sell it. Carbs don't bother me. Last one I had was my B2200 and it never gave me a problem in that area.

I guess the question, in that case, is what is it worth? We have an unassessed rust situation. Let's assume its all surface rust. We have nonfunctioning A/C, and I will HAVE to put that right for the wife to enjoy it. Is it even a $3k car? And if I were to buy it, fix the A/C, service it, etc ... would I be able to get my money back out of it in say 18 months? Or will the money to repair it be lost and it will continue to drop and be a $2500 car?

fintail

If the rust is not dangerous, and everything else checks out, the 3K neighborhood seems to be what these trade at. The seller is at about real world money for it. Money for repairs will likely be lost - you'd eventually be able to get your purchase price back (might take some time, small market for these), but probably not any additional expenses.

The nicest highly optioned injected models only seem to go in the 5-7K range, if spotless.