Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

Well the AC, even when factory new, is marginal at best, so if you are in a very high temp. climate, this system is bound to disappoint you. if the AC compressor is actually frozen (seized) then you are facing a possible considerable expense. I'd peg the car at around $1,300 to $1,500, using the formula of "worst possible case" for the AC. So if tepid AC and neck-jerking transmission shifts are not going to please wivey, then reconsider this one.

I'd put the 250C in the "cheap and cheerful" category of old cars---something you buy cheap, have fun with, do not invest in, and sell cheap to unload it.

Actually a far better and more practical car would be a early 1970s 220 gasser with manual transmission---by far the best version of this model.

qbrozen

neck-jerking transmission shifts

oh... does this shift like my '91 190E did? Cause that was terribly annoying. I did cure it a bit by playing with the hidden vacuum adjustment dials on the side of the tranny. Does this have that option as well or no?

As for the A/C, a rebuilt compressor is $162. So that doesn't bother me all that much.

fintail

I think that coupe might have the same transmission as my fintail...very durable, but downshifts are either hilariously or maddeningly jerky. No torque convertor, weird tech, that's just how they are.

For some time now I have gotten into a habit of shifting for myself a lot - better shift points for performance, and smoother...but it really wears on the linkage.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh don't sell the AC problem short. If the AC compressor is seized, the entire system has been splattered with metallic debris, so that means it ALL comes out---dryer, compressor, condenser, evaporator/ expansion valve and all the lines. you can clean the lines but all the other components need to be replaced.

qbrozen

well, the labor sucks, but it is doable and most of those parts are quite inexpensive. I didn't find a condenser at first glance, but the other stuff was all pretty cheap.

I'd much rather replace an A/C system than have to deal with bodywork, personally. Rotted A/C I can handle. Rotted rockers? Not so much.

gsemike

T Bird Destroyed in Fire

omarman

Story says the car was damaged, but from the looks of the garage it needs to be dragged out before the "destroyed" part happens. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

Odd thing about these early Birds---you always see tons of them for sale.

texases

Maybe the memory is better than the reality?

qbrozen

Wife wasn't thrilled about that 250C anyway. Oh well, moving on.

andre1969

Maybe the memory is better than the reality?

I wonder if people who lust after those T-birds think they're going to get something sportier and more comfortable than what they really are, only to discover the thing is cramped inside and despite the small size and sporty looks, handles about as clumsy as anything else out there.

I have a feeling the ride isn't so hot either, with that short wheelbase, and the seat being so close to the back axle. Sure, you're going to get that in just about any sportscar of the era, but at least there, you got the handling.

So, just a theory here, but maybe people get all excited about the glamour and intrigue of the original T-bird, but when they actually buy it, they find out it's not all that, tire of it, and then sell it?

Personally, I like 'em, but I'd have to pass because they're so cramped inside. Just the thought of squeezing into one makes my knee flare up and my tendonitis twitch!

au1994

My dad had a 56 when I was a kid. He's 6'2" and while snug, he fit into it pretty well.

It was hot in the cabin, even with the flip out vents they put on the 56's. Way to young to drive, but my dad will tell you to this day that the handling stunk on that car. And he had a 65 and 66 Mustang along with the T-Bird to compare it to.

Pretty, pretty car though. Sort of a Canary Yellow and he had all of the chrome redone so it sparkled really nice.

Mr_Shiftright

Well the early Birds are one of those "love 'em or hate 'em" kind of classics. Probably because they look great and drive like a bread truck. They do handle like a hippo on ice skates, that's true, and engine heat wafting into the interior is a problem. The automatics are clunky and the manual transmission is a 3-speed on the floor, of all things.

I guess it depends on the options---if you get p/s, automatic, AC, and if you take the time to insulate the firewall and put on good tires and shocks and somehow control body roll, so that you don't carve your doorhandles off in a turn---then it might be a very pleasant daytime cruiser, or as we call them with only a hint of condescension: "boulevardiers".

But you'd never have a problem finding 50 of them for sale anywhere, anytime, in your local metro area.

Also their value seems to stagnate, except for the rare models,which can be quite valuable (supercharged, etc).

As one critic said: "It's the car a corrupt senator buys for his chorus girl mistress in Las Vegas"

Ouch! :shades:

On the other hand, some guys did race them when they came out---not very successfully, but then in '55 the only serious sports cars were furrin'.

gsemike

Supercharged T Bird? From the factory? What's the deal with that?

I didn't know that they ever existed before this:

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, 1957---called the "F" Bird. And that could be a $100K car.

There's also an E-Bird, with 2X4 carburetors.

texases

Amos Minter T-Birds is close to where I live, they specialize in those early 'Birds, including the supercharged ones.

Pretty!:

Mr_Shiftright

Must be pretty scary with those brakes and handling. Never have driven one of those---might be fun as long as you stay in a straight line.

omarman

That pic looks like an 87-88 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. The 83-88 gen was the first Thunderbird to get turbo engines. The next gen T-Bird had a supercharged/intercooled V6 from '89-'95.

I test drove a new supercharged 1989 Cougar XR-7 and really liked it. It was all black/black trim with red leather interior, sun(moon?)roof, full power. After the test drive the salesman shook hands with me on a price but when we went inside to sign paper the new car sales manager rewrote the deal--up another $3000. I didn't like it that much but it was a great car and they can always ask whatever they want for it. I think Cougar only got the supercharged engine for '89 and '90.

One more funny thing about that day...Before going inside to get the deal "done" the salesman pointed at a flatbed truck loading a Merkur XR4Ti and said, "It's a brand new '88 and we can't give it away..." :shades:

gsemike

I remember test driving one of those Cougars, but it wasn't blown. It felt like a really big car with a really small back window. It wasn't for me. I ended up buying a 2 door Accord instead.

fintail

Thinking of my own neverending project car, I have been thinking of this W111 coupe parked next to my car at the show last weekend:



It was fairly perfect, maybe the best W111 engine I have ever seen, everything done, owner probably had 35-40K into the restoration. It was really a sight. Funny thing though, his wife bought him the car and he had it restored just to do it - not a huge enthusiast, just had more money than he knew what to do with, and wanted to have a car fixed up. I asked him if it had dual circuit brakes, he had no idea. Also didn't know if it was a Euro car (very rare 4 speed, likely is). I'd love to have my car put into that condition, but it seemed funny that the owner didn't learn anything about the car.

bhill2

I may have heard this at one time, but I don't remember it. Your beauty is a fintail. It was preceded by the ponton. Does the next generation, like that W111 you were writing about, have a similar designation?

tjc78

I am sure the resto was done nice, however, shouldn't the car have whitewalls? Things like that bother me.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not too fond of the early W111 coupes, and neither is the collector car market. They are very rust-prone, and with only 120HP pushing a 1.5 ton + car around, it's not as sporty as it looks.

The coupe to have would be a 280SE with the 3.5 / V8, circa 1970. That's also called a W111, but a variant (E35?)

fintail

As a probable Euro model, especially with the 4-speed, it could have been had with blackwalls - but as a 1962 model year US car, it would have had wide whites if sold here new, unless the buyer specified otherwise.

fintail

The W108/109 followed the W111/112 starting in 1965, these cars don't have any nickname. There are similar styling queues and some similar structural pieces:

qbrozen

What the ...? What F40 is he referring to? Cause it sure as hell doesn't resemble the one I'm familiar with.

I found this a little tempting at first. Then I read up on the specs. Only about as quick as my GTI in a straight line and with far far less usable space.

Mr_Shiftright

The "F 40" -- that is truly heinous.

MONDIAL -- you may recall that to service the engine timing belt, etc., you have to pull it out (yes, the entire engine/transaxle assembly) every 30K or so. That's not cheap.

Check it out:

http://www.cs.unc.edu/~keller/cars/Repair.html

fintail

Re: the F40...people around me are wondering why I am laughing. I don't know whether I like the interior or exterior best. Wow.

texases

Nice typo in that site:

" Like all CV boot covers, they tear over time. And, unfortunately, I haven't found any of those simple split boots that fit. So, you are gong to have to drop the axle. It is a quite a job but it is in the manual. Make sure you have lots of shop rage because there is a lot of grease there."

I have a feeling you'll have all the 'rage' you need by the time your done doing that job!

Mr_Shiftright

The Plot Thickens...apparently you could order this thing through Pontiac dealers !! :surprise:

From an old ad I dug up:

"Made exclusively for Pontiac by Knudsen Automotive, Inc., this is a 1986 Limited Edition Pontiac Tojan. This car is one of only 300 produced between 1985 and 1991."

So it's not exactly a "kit car"---more like a dream gone horribly wrong.

qbrozen

yeah, I read that about dropping the engine on wiki ... at least it was designed to all come out at once, so not all that bad.

I am just in awe over that Pontiac. I mean, seriously, is there truly a level of blindness that still allows you to drive yet is bad enough that you think that looks like any kind of ferrari???

Mr_Shiftright

It reminds me of what WC Fields said about Mae West: "She is a plumber's version of Cleopatra".

texases

Odd name, "Tojan", thought it was a typo...probably should have been call "Tojam"... :P

fintail

Now here's a resto-mod

gsemike

Way cool but 40 grand????

stickguy

Guy in the next neighborhood over has a Pontiac Catalina in the same tan/gold color (I thik) that Andre has. Walked the dog that way yesterday, and noticed his house is sold, and the car had a 4-sale sign on it.

Anyone want a 1970 Catalina 4 door sedan (I always thought it was more like a '68, but certainly not my specialty). Does run (I heard him start it up) but definitely not a restored motor! Body wise, looks to be original panels and paint, a bit beat up but little to no (that I noticed) rust on it. SO sound/beater maybe? Interior I did not get a close look at, but similar condition.

400CI engine I do know from the sign.

Overall, a well used car in essentially original condition, all for the princely sum of $800. Proving, I guess, how little interest there is in a FS 1970 4 door Pontiac!

Mr_Shiftright

This would be an excellent parts car---there's a treasure trove of date-code-correct pieces on that thing, and anyone restoring a higher line 2DHT or Convertible could use them. There's really no point in putting money into a car like this. I see 50 and even 75 year old shabby running 4-door sedans that sell dirt cheap. It's never going to be worth much.

If it were a 4D HT I might be more on the fence, but a 4D sedan--definitely, part it out IMO. It can live on in other vehicles!

andre1969

If it were a 4D HT I might be more on the fence, but a 4D sedan--definitely, part it out IMO. It can live on in other vehicles!

I'd almost be tempted by this car, as I don't like the idea of anything that might still have some useful life left in it being sacrificed. But, at the same time, I'm trying to get out of the habit of rescuing those old mutts. If I ever do get another old car, I'm trying to hold out for something like a nice '61 or '62 Cadillac!

If this '70 was a really nice 4-door sedan, I'd argue against it getting parted out. But, if it's getting rough around the edges, no big loss in the overall scheme of things, I guess.

Plus, I've already owned a '69 Bonneville 4-door hardtop and still have a '67 Catalina convertible. I probably should go for a little more variety, in life!

andre1969

I'd almost be tempted by this car, as I don't like the idea of anything that might still have some useful life left in it being sacrificed. But, at the same time, I'm trying to get out of the habit of rescuing those old mutts.

On the subject of old mutts, I finally got this thing to move under its own power, after not messing with it for about 3 or 4 months...



The battery, which has always been a bit marginal, was totally dead, so I pulled the battery out of my 5th Ave, which is in dry-dock until I get around to messing with the power steering pump.

It was a little cranky getting started, and the back brakes are grabby from sitting for so long, I guess. Once warmed up, it would stall out every time I put it in gear unless I kept one foot on the gas and one on the brake. Today, I played around with the idle, and think I've fixed that problem.

I cleaned out the trunk a bit...found an ant nest in it! It doesn't seem to be leaking anywhere, but I kept it open for a few hours, just to let it air out.

Depending on how daring I feel, I might try driving it to work on Tuesday! In the past, it usually got me to work okay, but would then refuse to start for the trip home. The next morning I'd drive something else to work, and the NY'er would fire up just fine.

These days, I'm only 2.5 miles from work (although in the past I wasn't much further, at 3.5) So, if it leaves me stuck at work, it's not too much of a walk home. Might be good exercise, if nothing else!

Mr_Shiftright

I don't see the wisdom in hoarding old 4-door sedans if you aren't going to do anything useful with them---they can be a gold mine in parts to someone who wants a date-correct car, or who doesn't want aftermarket parts on certain items.

You don't want to end up like the crazy woman down the street with 65 cats. :P

stickguy

to be honest, I have no clue if it is a hard top or a sedan. I do know for a fact though it has 4 doors!

what's the difference, no center 'B" pillar?

I could drive past it tomorrow to find out I guess.

Mr_Shiftright

That's right, no B pillar. If it were a 4D HT, it would be worth perhaps 25-30% more than a 4 D sedan. If it were a 2D HT, it would be worth double.

lemko

Also check out that nice-looking 1976 Cadillac Sedan DeVille in the background!

andre1969

what's the difference, no center 'B" pillar?

Yeah, no B-pillar is the most obvious cue of a hardtop versus a regular sedan. The hardtop also has no frames around the door windows, although there is still a thin chrome strip attached to the front of the rear door window, which serves as a seal between it and the front door window. The roofline of the hardtop is also about an inch or so lower than the sedan, but that's not readily obvious unless you see the two side by side. It's sort of a subtle detail that makes the hardtop appear longer and sleeker.

hpmctorque

Yeah, 3-speed on the floor doesn't quite cut it, but I think you could get overdrive as an option, which gave you 6 forward speeds. Not the best design for a 6-speed manual, but this might have been the best transmission choice for the '55-'57 Birds.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think 1st gear had overdrive. OD was awkward in those days. You had to be going about 35 mph first of all, then you pushed in a handle attached to a cable and it dropped into OD. To get OUT of OD, you either had to floor the gas pedal and activate a solenoid switch, then pull out the cable handle, or you had to stop the car entirely. Also, while in OD you freewheeled, meaning no engine braking.

This always lead to an interesting dilemma when you wanted to get out of OD while descending a long steep hill.

The British offered a much slicker overdrive, electrically operated, called a Laycock, and all you did there was flick a small lever on the steering stalk. These could be fussy however, and if you forgot to take it out of OD and went into reverse, the results could be disastrous for the sprag gear inside.

The American version of OD in those days, typically for us, was simpler, cruder and much sturdier. The only weak link in the American system was the solenoid, which was outside the transmission and prone to getting wet, knocked off in a ditch, etc.

texases

Coincidentally, Mecum auctioned off one of those 'Birds at Monterey that was one of 15 made for racing against the 'Vette, 3-speed, sold for $250k. "One of 15" says it all...

Mr_Shiftright

If a car has documented race history, that adds a whole lot to value. Why? Because it often makes it eligible for prestigious vintage racing events. In other words, you can actually go out and *do* something fun with your $250K coffee table.

hpmctorque

Overdrive first gear could be engaged in the '53 Ford V8 (last year for the flatheads in Ford cars), by going at least 28-30 mph in first, then letting up on the accelerator pedal. I don't recall that there was a handle to push in. My friend had such a car. Don't know about the '55-'57 OD equipped T-Birds specifically, but since they had a considerably more powerful OHV V8 than the standard flathead equipped Fords, that OD first gear could be engaged in these too. Now, I'll grant you that this awkward maneuver probably didn't buy you faster acceleration times (in fact, it probably slowed you down), I just assumed that it could be done with the Birds too.

Are you sure the OD was engaged with a handle on the T-Bird, and not by releasing the accelerator, as with the other Ford cars? I don't know for sure because I never drove or rode in a 2-seater T-Bird. Maybe the handle was to permit OD to be engaged (by releasing the accelerator pedal)

Mr_Shiftright

Nope, that '53 had a handle to push in. Here's an ad that tells you about this:

http://forum.love-fords.org/content.php?117-1953-Ford-Overdrive

Perhaps the driver of the car you were in already had it pushed in when starting out, and in that case, yes, you just let off the gas. Overdrive must be engaged by the driver on a standard shift car, either manually or electronically. Modern automatics use computer speed sensors and solenoids to do this.

Also it makes no sense to try for first overdrive, since a '53 Ford would be screaming in first gear at 27 mph in order to engage overdrive.