Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

tjc78

It was just last year that I discovered the trick of jiggling the air cleaner and the Lean Burn wires around.

I think its time to find a mechanic to rip out all that BS and throw a 4BBL Holley on there. You don't have to inspect/smog check it do you?

andre1969

I think its time to find a mechanic to rip out all that BS and throw a 4BBL Holley on there. You don't have to inspect/smog check it do you?

I'd LOVE to do something like that! I wonder how much it would cost? If I had regular tags on the car, I'd have to take it through the emissions test every other year, but since I have historic tags, I don't. And even if I did, as long as it still had the catalytic converter on it, and passed emissions, they wouldn't care if it had the Lean Burn on it or not.

I did run the idea of ditching the Lean Burn and putting a 4-bbl on by the old mechanic, and he hemmed and hawed, saying that it's so rare to see one of these things with its original Lean Burn, especially in this condition, that he'd hate to mess with the originality. My attitude is hell, it was a $500 car...I'm more concerned that the thing runs well, than whether the AACA is going to thumb their noses at it!

tjc78

Probably wouldn't be all that cheap ($1000?), because to go with a 4BBL you probably have to change the intake.

A cheaper route would be to grab a 2BBL something that may have been stock on the 318 a few years earlier (maybe even a truck application??)

oldfarmer50

"...jiggle those wires or wiggle the air cleaner..."

That's what I love about those old beasts. You could hit something with a hammer and get it running long enough to get home.

My favorite was jamming a chunk of wood into the butterfly on the carb to keep it running. :lemon:

Mr_Shiftright

Absolutely, put on an Edelbrock carb and manifold, and MSD ignition system and enjoy your car. Believe me, no one is ever going to care if it has the original lean-burn system installed. They'd probably pay you MORE for it modified than stock.

fintail

One reason I like FI - cold start and stalling issues are uncommon. All that reminds me of my first car, 66 Galaxie with a 390-4 bbl, would usually start OK, but seemed to take forever to warm up and run properly, you had to baby it along for a good 10-15 minutes until you could be sure it wouldn't cut out under heavier throttle. Got to the point where I could stall it, pop it out of gear, restart it, and get going again without stopping. I don't miss that and won't complain if I never experience it again.

michaellno

One reason I like FI - cold start and stalling issues are uncommon. All that reminds me of my first car, 66 Galaxie with a 390-4 bbl, would usually start OK, but seemed to take forever to warm up and run properly, you had to baby it along for a good 10-15 minutes until you could be sure it wouldn't cut out under heavier throttle.

I don't have a lot of experience with old cars, but my dad replace the distributor and points on his '70 Chevy C-10 with an electronic ignition many many years ago. He's got the 350 with the 4-bbl carb, and he's got it running so that you only have to 'twitch' the key to the 'on' position for it to start up.

Of course, this is a California truck, so it doesn't really see any cold weather ...

fin, my grandmother had a '67 Mercury Monterey coupe with the 390 - not sure if it was 2 or 4 bbl, but that beast was huge and ran like a top. One of my first "highway" experiences after getting my license was taking it to Los Angeles to attend a Dodgers game - this was about a 50-60 mile drive from where we lived.

andre1969

Believe me, no one is ever going to care if it has the original lean-burn system installed.

Yeah, that's about what I figured. Now, if this car was lovingly-preserved, showroom-new, and ultra-low-mileage, I might be tempted to try and keep it as stock as possible. But in its current state, nobody's gonna care.

BTW, it did start up just fine when I went out to lunch. Slight tap of the gas, turn the key, and it fired right up. Then, I decided to face my biggest fear...taking the thing to the gas station. I don't know why, but I've just had this mental image of pulling up to the pump, filling up, and then having it refuse to start. Blocking that pump, and aggravating a lot of people.

One common circumstance where the car will refuse to start is if I turn it off just a couple minutes after I first started it. And that was the case today, as it was only running about 5 mins when I shut it off at the gas station. Thankfully, it fired right up.

Took it home, and parked it down by the garage and out of the way, just in case it refused to start back up. But, about 25 mins later, when I went back to work, hop in, turn the key, and it fired right up.

If it keeps behaving this well, I might start driving the thing more often. And I definitely want to start looking into a non Lean-Burn carb and ignition system.

stickguy

Forget the 4 bbl and manifold. DO it right, and yank the old lump out of there and drop in a crate engine. Heck, go with a Hemi.

I think Andre would be a perfect candidate for an episode of Overhaulin, though it might freak him out to have one if his "classics" all messed with!

though that Newport with some serious HP and suspension upgrades to match could be an interesting sleeper.

Of course, I am the guy that would love to have one of those Volvo 740 wagons with a Mustang 5.0 and a stick shift!

fintail

10 years ago or so I put electronic ignition in my fintail - it's fantastic. No more breaker points to maintain. It fires right up in pretty much any conditions.

I remember that old 390 for the gigantic amount of fuel it drank (mileage was maybe 10/14 at best) and for its cold-blooded-ness. I am sure part of it was a carb defect, but it never was completely right. It would smoke the tires pretty easily, anyway.

xwesx

I have an electronic ignition for my '69 C20, but I haven't installed it and probably never will. I agree that the EE makes for a better system, I just don't want to lose the originality of the truck. For mine, I think originality is important with relation to its value.

My truck is dead reliable, though. I can start it at -50F after it has sat for three months if I need to (assuming I plug in the block heaters for an hour or two first!).

michaellno

I think Andre would be a perfect candidate for an episode of Overhaulin, though it might freak him out to have one if his "classics" all messed with!

though that Newport with some serious HP and suspension upgrades to match could be an interesting sleeper.

Of course, I am the guy that would love to have one of those Volvo 740 wagons with a Mustang 5.0 and a stick shift!

I hear you .. I remember reading about the "Boss Wagons" that C&D built in the 70's and 80's and thinking how cool it would be to have a sleeper like that.

I can't remember if I mentioned it on this forum (or at all here on Edmunds) but if I ever came into a pile of money, I'd like to pull the 2.0L turbo out of a Cobalt or HHR SS and put it into my ION - swap out the automatic for the 5-speed and have a real Q-ship - 240HP and < 3000 lbs would make for quick acceleration.

andre1969

think Andre would be a perfect candidate for an episode of Overhaulin, though it might freak him out to have one if his "classics" all messed with!

Actually, as long as it looks more or less stock, I wouldn't be all that concerned what they replaced the engine with...so long as it was more-or-less related. Actually, I kinda like the idea of getting the new 3.6 V-6/6-speed automatic under the hood. It puts out 290 hp, compared to the 150 that the 360-2bbl has. And while torque would be a concern in a car this big, I wouldn't be surprised if the new 3.6 has more torque, too. I think my 360 has 275 ft-lb, but not positive.

I guess a combo like that would give better performance and WAY better fuel economy, especially around town. The 360 can actually break 20 mpg on the highway in the right conditions, but locally, it's more like 8-10.

qbrozen

I know we've gone over this before, but someone beat me over the head again... an '87 420SEL... bad idea? I see 2 of them for sale with about 170k miles each. Around $3k each.

And LS400 is really sounding like a good idea ... just going to be tough to find the right one for $3k.

fintail

I think it could be switched back easily enough if need be. For something like my fintail (and your truck), I don't think it will have a real value impact - these vehicles are never going to be million dollar super collectibles. Maybe a plus to have the old style system if we ever deal with an EMP, but there might be other more pressing needs then too :shades:

fintail

You'd want to have it looked at first, one good system failure and you'd have a parts car. Same for the Lexus, really. That's kind of a borderline price that comes between OK cars and those with needs.

qbrozen

Wow, I love the interior on this.

To be honest, I've never paid for a pre-purchase inspection, and I don't think I'd start now with a sub-$3k car. If such a car is clean and the engine and trans work well, you can't complain all too much.

qbrozen

This is pretty nice, too.
I just have a feeling this seller won't be too flexible on the price.

fintail

That's really a 280 of course, a "C" being a coupe, but if everything checks out and there is no rot, maybe knock a few hundred off, and that wouldn't be a horrible old car. Not many have survived so well as they tend to be neglected, and that one has a bigger engine. I wonder if the paint could be shined up.

A good hard test drive in an old S or LS should do it, maybe get under it and look for leaks too. It's a roll of the dice, might get years out of it, maybe weeks.

That old 7er looks nice too, reminds me of the McFly family car in the updated version of 1985.

xwesx

That could be fun. I have, for many years, harbored this desire to cannibalize the entire drivetrain of a Subaru WRX STi and mate it to my 1974 Pinto wagon. Hahah; that would be such a sleeper! :shades:

im_brentwood

Watch those early 7s...

Engine = Bulletproof.

HVAC = Potential for nightmares.

im_brentwood

Actually this one was an 86.. 25 year cutoff here in Jersey.

andre1969

my '79 NY'er got me home without incident. Didn't fire up on the first try, though. Initially, I turned the key and it caught for a moment, then died. So I gave the gas pedal a gentle tap, turned the key again, and it fired right up.

Tomorrow's going to be the big test, though. I'm thinking about taking it over the county line on my beer run to the discount liquor store, about 12 miles away. That is, presuming it starts up, in the first place!

Mr_Shiftright

On many old cars, originality just doesn't matter, and besides, you can do anything you want that isn't "irreversible" (translated as 'cutting, chopping, welding, etc).

Do you really think someone is going to reject or lowball a pristine '79 Chrysler or '69 Pickup truck because of the ignition system installed? No way. They'd probably welcome it.

Unless you are a) running a Mom and Pop museum or b) taking your vehicle to white-glove judging competitions, it doesn't matter at all if you modify it respectfully.

hpmctorque

Couldn't you add the Corvette to the short list of cars that offer an "experience", or at least some Corvettes? Certainly Europeans would find driving a Corvette quite different from what they're used to.

Mr_Shiftright

Well sure, culturally it would be a different experience...although certainly many Euro supercars now run V8s or better. But a Vette isn't say so radically different in experience than one of the new super Mustangs or Camaros.

I don't know how to explain it exactly...in a Ferrari or Porsche your entire body starts to vibrate/resonate in tune with the car--it's hard to pin down exactly.

Perhaps it has a lot to do with engine placement and proximity to your senses, or perhaps with the sense of precision. The Corvette is a steal at the price, really, and very competent as a world class supercar, but it is somewhat brutish.

My experience is limited to 2009 Vettes and older, BTW.

texases

Any thoughts on how long an air-cooled Beetle engine typically would go between rebuilds? I'm in a discussion where someone's claimng 400k is not unusual :surprise:

My Beetle/Ghia owning friend says it's more like 100k.

Mr_Shiftright

About 60K---this doesn't mean it would blow up at 60K but that it would be getting pretty tired. I suppose you could stagger along at reduced power and under threat of catastrophe for another 40K.

But rebuilit VW air-cooled engines are cheaper than the mufflers on most modern cars.

If you take one of these engine apart, you can see immediately that it's not going any 400K miles. It's pretty cheaply made internally. Compared to a Porsche, it's like the different between a titanium part hand-machined for the space shuttle and a screwdriver you buy at Walmart.

andre1969

I don't know how to explain it exactly...in a Ferrari or Porsche your entire body starts to vibrate/resonate in tune with the car--it's hard to pin down exactly.

My ex-wife would understand perfectly. She used to enjoy the way my '68 Dart vibrated, but it would annoy me. I remember one time putting it into neutral at a red light, and she started griping "You never want me to have ANY fun, do you?!" :P

jwilliams2

But rebuilit VW air-cooled engines are cheaper than the mufflers on most modern cars.

Boy, that's the truth. At least it used to be. I had a motor seize in my '55 Beetle when I was stationed in Germany. The local dealer put in a factory rebuilt motor, top to bottom for under $100 US including labor. Of course, this was about 50 years ago... :P

texases

"About 60K---this doesn't mean it would blow up at 60K but that it would be getting pretty tired. I suppose you could stagger along at reduced power and under threat of catastrophe for another 40K. "

Thanks, that's what I thought. Funny how folks bestow mystical powers to these old Beetles - they didn't even have an oil filter, yet were somehow more durable than any motor, before or since!

andre1969

Thanks, that's what I thought. Funny how folks bestow mystical powers to these old Beetles - they didn't even have an oil filter, yet were somehow more durable than any motor, before or since!

I've also heard that, emissions-wise, those old Bug engines were pretty dirty for their displacement, and often put out more pollutants than much larger engines. Now, I doubt a Bug engine put out as much filth as a 426 Hemi or what have you, but it turns out those pre-historic tree-huggers who bought them because they thought they were "green" were doing a lot more harm to the environment than they thought!

Mr_Shiftright

I think you can still get a pretty good rebuilt for around $1200. A Hyundai catalytic converter costs that much.

Oh well "mystical powers" -- yeah, the anecdotal data about old car engines seems to get more and more romantic as time goes on.

I suppose part of the problem is that when people say "it will last for....", that's like saying "Yeah, the old man lasted until 104 years old".

But was he playing tennis or feeding himself? Probably not. :P But he WAS alive...sorta kinda.

hpmctorque

I was one of those who assigned more value to VW Bugs than they deserved, but for some time have believed that the best economy car value of the '60s was the Valiant, with the Slant Six and TorqueFlyte. Heck, they even handled and rode well for their class.

jwilliams2

but it turns out those pre-historic tree-huggers who bought them because they thought they were "green" ....

To my recollection "green" wasn't the reason most bought VW's back in the '60's. Mostly it was because they were cheap, both to buy and to operate. And they were easy to work on.

tjc78

My Mother had a Bug in the mid 70s and she always bragged that for a few bucks she could drive it to the NJ shore and back (80 miles) and then back and forth to work all week.

Hers was the clutchless manual w factory A/C

ab348

Really not much different from the myths that some people spread about Toyota, Honda or whatever their favorite Japanese brand is now.

texases

True, but here we're talking about 1935 engine technology with the Beetle.

andres3

What myths would those be?

Most people love a Japanese brand because they've owned one that cost them $0 in repairs over 100,000 miles. No myth about it.

omarman

My late wife loved her '74 bug despite 2 engine rebuilds before turning 100K miles but like others have posted, she claimed the fixes were cheap. And my old girlfriend loved her '76 Datsun B210 (nearly the same shade of yellow - but with more rust) the same way. It cracked the aluminum head at 70K miles and blew the head gasket at around 100K, but otherwise cost little to keep it going.

I hated both of those cars. They were cheap to buy, typically reliable, and primitive, uncomfortable, generally half hearted attempts at a real car experience. But the vibrations? Oh yes, they both pegged the Noise, Vibration, and Harshness meter...hmm. Reminds me of Molly Shannon in Talladega Nights, "There's only one good thing about coming to these races and that is the vibrations from the cars!"

texases

Was that one of those Datsun "Honey Bees"? I didn't like them either, kind of the definition of cheap. Certainly a step above a Chevette, but not a Corolla.

ab348

Like the Honda my ex-gf owned back in the '80s. She would swear she never had to do anything to it. Of course, every time she took it to the dealer for an oil change, they soaked her for hundreds of dollars worth of "preventative maintenance", everything from brake jobs to axles to ball joints, until finally they told her it was too rusty to drive any more.

Yeah, nothing ever went wrong with that car. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

I think the reputation of Japanese reliabililty is, or was, generally well-earned.

Of course, it's all relative. "reliable" compared to 1970/80s American cars? Oh, yeah. But "reliable" compared to 2011 American cars---not particularly.

Remember that Top Gear show where they tried to kill a Japanese diesel pickup truck? They actually put in on the roof of a building and blew the entire building up, then drove the truck off a pier into the ocean.

Yep, still running.

For years, my advice to newbies who wanted a new car and weren't concerned with style or handling or prestige, was to "buy a Toyota or a Honda". And nobody ever got mad at me for that advice, either.

I think I only owned one Japanese car in my entire life (except for those I used to flip for a profit when I was bending wrenches for a living). That was a Subaru AWD and it was a good car.

I like used German, Italian and British cars, so you can tell that reliability isn't exactly a top priority with me. :P

hpmctorque

"...I only owned one Japanese car in my entire life..."

Didn't you own a Scion xA just before or just after the Subaru?

oldbearcat

I've owned 5 Hondas, and, I'm not in love with them. My experience with them in the past has been a mixed bag, and, no better than my experiences with domestic brands. I currently own a 2010 CRV. Yeah, it's been reliable enough, but, its fuel economy and performance leaves much to be desired. In addition, it's noisy to distraction at interstate speeds. My wife wanted this vehicle, and, now, she doesn't like to take it on long trips.

Regards:
Oldbearcat

tjc78

In addition, it's noisy to distraction at interstate speeds

That is one thing Honda does not do well. In every Honda I've ever driven it has been a noiser ride than many other brands. I'm not sure if its the OEM tire choice or what.

andre1969

hat's what I love about those old beasts. You could hit something with a hammer and get it running long enough to get home.

My favorite was jamming a chunk of wood into the butterfly on the carb to keep it running.

LOL, that's what I had to do to get my '76 LeMans to start this morning, although I used a screwdriver! The car had been more or less behaving, but this was the first fairly cold morning we've had...47 degrees, and the car didn't take too well to it, I guess!

And this evening, it looks like I'm going to be changing the lower radiator hose on my '85 Silverado. It's leaking coolant, and I can see it dripping off the bottom of that hose. At least, I hope it's just the hose, and that it's not running down from someplace more expensive, such as the radiator (5 1/2 years old) or water pump (original). Guess I'll find out today once I get underneath it!

texases

" it's noisy to distraction at interstate speeds. "

I was surprised how loud the rental Accord was a couple of years ago.

But you might try a good set of Michelins on it, I bet it would help.

qbrozen

Anybody need a LeMons car?

andres3

I've owned 5 Hondas, and, I'm not in love with them. My experience with them in the past has been a mixed bag, and, no better than my experiences with domestic brands.

If that is truly a true statement, then you must have owned at least 5 or more domestic branded vehicles as well. If not, your lying to everyone here. You don't buy something 5 times if your not happy with it in some way.