Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

I love that line in the ad: "and it floats like a Caddy should". LOL!

Might be worth $5K--$6K. I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for a low mileage version of this particular year and type Cadillac. That's money down the tubes.

Roomy, cushy, probably not too bad on gas, decent-looking, most parts cheap--it has some appeal I'm sure for your needs.

texases

I've always like those, but I'd try and find one of the (very few) they made without the vinyl top. One of the better 'big bumper' cars out there, IMHO.

qbrozen

its going to be out of my budget, and I bet the wife won't like it anyway.

stickguy

I kind of like it too. I actually saw a pretty nice example of this model on the road last week. Seemed like a relatively clean original owner driver car.

But, makes no sense to pay top dollar for this, if your intent is to use it for your wife to mile up!

andre1969

Roomy, cushy, probably not too bad on gas, decent-looking, most parts cheap--it has some appeal I'm sure for your needs.

Here's something kinda odd...I just looked up the Seville's interior volume at www.fueleconomy.gov. It's actually a bit SMALLER inside than the Nova it's based on! Both have 13 cubic feet trunks, but the Nova has 96 cubic feet of passenger volume, compared to 95 for the Nova.

Sometimes, luxury versions of platforms do have lower interior volumes because the seats are thicker, or the padding on the door panels, and that'll reduce the measurements a bit.

The one time I sat in a Seville, which was for sale at Hershey one year, I was a bit disappointed in how little legroom it had. I've always found the X-bodies upon which it's based to be a little tight as well, but was hoping that with a power seat, the Seville would offer a great range of motion.

Still, not a bad effort for the time. And for comparison, this car's closest competitor, the Lincoln Versailles, only had 92 cubic feet of passenger volume (but a larger 15 cubic foot trunk). Chrysler's closest car to this market back then would have probably been the M-body LeBaron. They came in at a much lower price point (base models just had a slant six, vinyl seats, crank windows etc) but they could be equipped to be quite luxurious, with leather seats, power everything, 360 V-8, etc. They were rated at 97 cubic feet of passenger volume, and a 16 cubic foot trunk.

fintail

Really, for the time, it is very elegant and restrained. Look at what it was competing with, and replacing. For sure, no real fun to drive, but nice for cruising. Nice old car.

hpmctorque

I liked each of those models you mentioned, but I'd stay away from the Versailles because it's problematic. As you said, the Lebaron could be dressed up to be quite luxurious, for not much money. However, it had no pretense of competing with the BMW 5-Series and Mercedes 300s of the day, whereas the Seville did. I think the LeBaron and Dodge Diplomat were Chrysler Corp.'s answer to the Ford Granada and Mercury Monarch, but the Mopars were better than those lousy riding and handling Fords.

Mr_Shiftright

Well the term roomy is relative I guess...I mean compared to a BMW 3 Series it's like a basketball court in there.

andre1969

There's a Versailles that shows up at the car show I go to every August in Macungie. Actually, if you don't have the Granada/Monarch as a reference point, I don't think the Versailles is a bad looking car. But, view the two side-by side, and it becomes so blatantly obvious what it's based on.

I think Ford has a similar problem today with the Zephyr or Mark-whatever that they call it nowadays. Nice looking car, and a great interior that pays a nice tribute to the 60's Continentals. But, park a Fusion next to it, and suddenly its roots are showing. Maybe not trailer-park roots, but more like "Levitt and Sons" (don't ask me why that popped into my mind).

And yeah, the LeBaron/Diplomat were more of a take on the "luxury compact" idea that the Granada/Monarch popularized. They were more luxurious versions of the Maverick/Comet, whereas the LeBaron/Diplomat were luxury versions of the Aspen/Volare.

Oddly though, the Mopars seemed to overlap quite a bit. Maybe they got a bit too influenced by the Granada, so they decided to make even the cheapest Volare or Aspen have an upscale, pretentious look to it. And if you got the top level, which I think was a Volare Premier or Aspen Medallion (one of them might have been called "SE"), they were pretty ritzy inside, nicer than a base level LeBaron/Diplomat.

In contrast, I think the Maverick/Comet were mainly just cheap, basic transportation. If you got a nicer trim level (LDO?) would it be "nicer" inside than a base level Granada?

hpmctorque

I'd answer "yes" to the question in your last paragraph. The LDO dressed up both the exterior and interior of the Maverick quite nicely, for its day.

We must remember that, in the '70s, Detroit was in a reactive mode to the mid-level and luxury Europeans. They rushed to do what they could with what they had, as quickly as possible, which is why the results were mainly cosmetic.

ab348

I realize Caddy aficionados are not a group you are probably all that familiar with, but that is a ridiculously low value estimate.

These cars were the most expensive in Caddy's line when they were new, and were very well-received. This is a beautiful example and is worth every penny at the current price.

qbrozen

that's getting up there fast. I had to go back and look to see what price you were referring to because it was no where NEAR that when I posted it this morning.

By the way, there is a difference between what its WORTH (Shifty's estimate) and what someone will pay for it. For example, you may pay $20k to be the first to own a Fiat 500 on your block, but the insurance sure as hell won't find it WORTH that much if you total it.

ab348

Yes, it is worth the current $7600 for sure. Now, as to the reserve price, I have no idea... but it still isn't there.

qbrozen

sorry, was editing when you posted. Check my post above regarding worth.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, yes, I know. This always comes up. That "sale" is one buyer on one day. When I give estimates I'm talking about a broad database. One sale doesn't make a market. To those who say a certain car is a bargain, then why don't they buy it and flip it for a few thou?

This is especially true when someone pays a premium price for a very low miles car, which, by definition, they cannot drive because they depreciate it if they do, thereby losing money on every mile.

So basically with cars like this you end up staring at a late 70s American car in your garage that you paid double the market for.

I'd be more convinced that I was low if someone took this car and resold it for the same money the following week and so on for say 5-6 sales.

I've seen very nice examples with $8500 asking prices but the ads have been up a long time.

Here's one with only 44K on it, looks very nice. I bet they'd take $7500 for it. Could it sell for $6K? Maybe, who knows unless you offer?

http://classicauto-showplace.com/node/7922

Keep in mind that this car is already 35 years old and it's still priced for less than a used Hyundai. It's not exactly a hot ticket in the collectible car world.

ab348

My not-so-subtle point was that your estimates always appear to be on the low side when it comes to well-preserved originals, especially when it comes to domestics. There aren't many 7700 mile examples of 34 year old cars in that broad database, I expect. There is no accepted "market value" for such uncommon examples, just as this there is none for resto-mods, etc.. It's all just seat-of-the-pants estimating.

Mr_Shiftright

True, I see your point but you are assuming that a low mileage example of a fairly common and inexpensive car is suddenly worth 2X the price because it is a low mileage example. It doesn't work that way or at least this has been my experience in doing this kind of thing for many years.

In the same way, you could have a very rare car that could be rather valueless.

The 2nd part of any value equation is that someone has to CARE about the object in a very intense way.

I suspect that anyone who has ever wanted a '77 Seville with low miles could be counted on two hands, and that most of them already have what they want.

It's all "supply and demand". The buyer decides the market value, not the sellers or the price guides.

If you looked at only one house in a neighborhood, and I was a real estate agent looking at 100 a week, I bet we would have a differing sense of value.

Why? Two reasons: One, I am impartial and you aren't (because you are a buyer who wants a house badly perhaps); and two--i look at way more houses than you do.

Besides---- our TOPIC here is "project cars"---meaning we are juggling numbers to decide when to hold and when to fold.

My motto is "the profit in any car is in the buy, not the sell". So if you want to come out ahead on a car, or even break even, you have to be smart on the buy end.

If you are merely in LOVE, hey, it's your money. If someone wants to pay $50,000 for a Yugo, that's their business. Just don't say "that's the new market".

omarman

I like that old Seville even though the market has decided it's just an old car and not the classic the seller may think he's got.

With a standard "add for this and deduct for that" calculation reflecting condition issues, options, etc., the low miles is worth something isn't it? Not to say that it's going to be a 2X multiplier on a Seville! :lemon:

But for any old used car with just 7k miles, it usually will add something to the appraisal. Regarding an old pristine, 70s sedan, are the low miles really just worthless bumpage to an appraiser?

Edit: Just wanted to add, my own point of view pretty much guarantees that I will never be the winning bidder of a super low mile, pristine, 70s love machine on ebay motors. I'm not sure what the super low mile premium is, but to me it's definitely not the kind of money many sellers ask.

ab348

Your "impartial" viewpoint might work if one is looking to buy a used Hyundai.

That logic goes out the window when dealing with collector cars, which are by definition, totally illogical. Unless you're dealing with a '57 Chevy or a '60s Mustang, which seem to be more plentiful than when they were new, the market is pretty much a sample of one or two.

qbrozen

Let us also not forget that, if you wish to DRIVE the car you purchase with ultra-low miles, it will require a lot of money and work to make it reliable. Anything rubber is pretty much long past its usefulness and will need to be replaced. That's all I can personally think about when I see these "preserved" cars. So if you overpay to buy it, that hole is only going to get much much deeper when you start replacing all that stuff. And the next buyer certainly isn't going to pay you more just because you went through the effort and expense.

This is sort-of/kind-of related to my current shopping experience. I keep getting these sellers claiming their somewhat low-mileage car is in great shape. I then make the drive to see it and find all of these things wrong and their response is "well, what did you expect for a 20-year-old car?" So they are expecting me to pay top dollar just because it has low miles when I will then have to turn around and sink another pile of money into it. Ummm... no, thank you.

texases

"the market is pretty much a sample of one or two. "

Not that I've seen. Every time I see a question 'What is my (fill in the blank) worth?' I go to ebaymotors and pull up a screen full of them. It has to be exceptionally rare to be a 'sample of one or two'.

michaellno

Not that I've seen. Every time I see a question 'What is my (fill in the blank) worth?' I go to ebaymotors and pull up a screen full of them. It has to be exceptionally rare to be a 'sample of one or two'.

Interesting .. I just searched ebaymotors for a 1970 Chevrolet C-10 pickup (my dad has one that he bought new 41 years ago) and there are 21 for sale.

Everything from crapped out junk to highly modified examples were available.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think so. Impartiality is in fact essential to be a good appraiser. If impartiality went out the window, so would accuracy. Bias in appraising is considered unprofessional, and for us, ignoring a wide diverse market would be illogical.

I try to keep sharp by reading auction results, say from Hemmings Classic Cars and Sports Car Market and other pubs, and I keep my thumb over the selling price while reading the description---then I guess. In most cases, i'm right at 10% = or -; so I think my methods prove themselves to be still "real world" accurate. Besides that I have 25 years experience following the market, so I throw that in, too.

But sure, there's always more to learn. You'd probably be an excellent car collector, restoration advisor, and club member but not such a good appraiser because you "love" cars. I can't do that. I look at numbers when I appraise, and pricing/selling history from the past. I must remain completely unemotional when I am hired to evaluate a car.

LOW MILES -- it's really the condition I look at, not the low miles. If a car has low miles and is a mess (chickens living in it, etc.), then the low miles are nearly irrelevant. But sure, if the low miles reflect a truly pristine condition, then you'd have to factor that in as very high book.

For a '77 Seville that was "factory new", we could project a theoretical high value of some $11,000, but if I were your advisor on a pre-sale, I wouldn't suggest you pay that unless you were just mad for it.

lemmer

All Maserati BiTurbos have low miles...

stickguy

not if you can't the ones on the back of the roll back truck.

Mr_Shiftright

Sometimes low miles really do matter...like on a Ferrari or a Corvette...but on a Porsche, not so much. That's just how buyers have preferred them to be.

A modern Ferrari with 75K on it is like a parts car...no kidding...a Corvette with over 100K is a hard sell. But a Porsche with 125K, nobody blinks...they discount a bit, sure, but it's regarded more like miles on an ordinary used car.

The only real advantage I can see to buying an old car with very very low miles is the historical advantage---you know that the parts are original. Question then becomes: "does anyone care how authentic a '77 Seville really is?" I mean, no one checks these cars for 'matching numbers' and no one date codes them part by part, so you have to wonder what exactly these low miles bring to the party.

andre1969

Question then becomes: "does anyone care how authentic a '77 Seville really is?" I mean, no one checks these cars for 'matching numbers' and no one date codes them part by part, so you have to wonder what exactly these low miles bring to the party.

Ask the people who show these cars at AACA events like Hershey and such. Low mileage and originality become bragging rights. I'm not an AACA member, so I couldn't put a car in Hershey, but I think the most "original" car I own is my $500 New Yorker. Hey, maybe I should hang onto that Lean Burn, after all! :P

Mr_Shiftright

Yes I get the bragging rights thing, but it's not like its a rare car or anything. There could be 20 of them on the field. Do you get to brag louder at 7K miles than at 44K miles?

I'd be more impressed with an original 53 Studebaker or something.

andre1969

Yes I get the bragging rights thing, but it's not like its a rare car or anything. There could be 20 of them on the field. Do you get to brag louder at 7K miles than at 44K miles?

Well yeah, I'm sure the owner of the 7K example is gonna be bragging a lot louder than the one with 44K miles!

I'd be more impressed with an original 53 Studebaker or something.

Actually, at the Hershey show, might see more '53 Studebakers than first-gen Sevilles!

lemmer

My Lexus is kind of a project car with only three wheels now.



I hit a pothole going about 35 MPH. The tire didn't even blow, but did rapidly deflate. The Tire Rack calls this normal impact damage and voids the structural warranty of the wheel.

texases

OUCH! What brand wheel? What size tire? Must have made quite a noise.

lemmer

245/35/19 MSW wheels. That size seems pretty low profile, but isn't too crazy by modern standards. There was no real noise. It was just a light bump and then I looked over at my wife and told her that I thought that stupid little pothole somehow flattened my tire. I pulled over immediately to put on the spare. I was pretty shocked. The wheels and tires were bought new and have about 12K miles on him.

texases

Yeah, 35 series isn't all that unusual now on 'sports' packages. But they do seem to attract potholes! C&D had several replacements on their long-term 5er.

lemko

Good God, that car is drop-dead gorgeous!

lemko

A college roommate of mine had a green 1977 Dodge Aspen SE. I thought it was pretty plush for what it was.

lemmer

I've seen OEM wheels just about bend into an oval without breaking like this. I think I might be done with aftermarket wheels.

From the Tire Rack/MSW website - MSW wheels, designed and engineered in O.Z.'s high technology design and testing facilities, are produced with a focus on strength and style.

Production is overseen by a team of O.Z. engineers to ensure that quality is never compromised. MSW wheels meet all official regulations of each country the wheels are sold in, including the stringent rules for T.U.V. (Germany's Technical Monitoring Association) certification.

lemko

That Seville would be a smash hit at my local Cadillac-LaSalle Club shows. It would easily win the Best of Show - Late Model.

Mr_Shiftright

I would take a car like that Seville and just drive it everyday. To me it's just a really nice old used car and that's all it will ever be. I mean, they did make over 150,000 of them.

xwesx

that car is drop-dead gorgeous!

I thought the same thing. I particularly like the colors on it. I would never want to actually drive it, but I sure don't mind looking at it. What's odd about that is I generally dislike the boxy body styles of that era's cars.

qbrozen

wow, that's impressive!

I SLAMMED into a pothole with the stock 18" wheels and 45-series tires on my GTI this past weekend. It broke a belt in the tires. No other damage that I can see thus far.

It did ruin the day, however, as I was 30 minutes from home on my way to the autoX. They would never let me run with a broken belt, so I turned around and went home.

texases

When I slid into a curb (ice) with my '79 Scirrocco I didn't think it damaged anything, until a week later when the car wanted to go in two different directions, depending on whether I gave it gas or not. Turned out the lower control arm failed.

I paid additionally when I tried to trade it in on a '83 GTI, the impact bent the upper strut mount enough to eventually flake off some paint. The car dealer refused it, pointing to the flaking paint...

stickguy

spamming the boards! Don't be hatin.

Where exactly was Rob hanging around discussing his search for a piece of crap (er., new car) for his wife? So, will spam it!

Stopped to look at a private sale(as in, on the guys front yard) on the way home from work. Sounds perfect. Other maybe than the price, but that ain't my problem!

1999 BMW 528i. Blue over tan, Premium pack, and nice alloys (including a 5th in the trunk). AT. Looked nice and clean, deep sneakers, shiny, etc.

Only 151K on it. Guy has had it since 2001 (22K). All maintenance done at a local MB/BMW only shop that IIRC is top notch, so records available. Started right up, seemed to run fine.

I pulled up as another guy was just starting to look. He drove, I left.

Items of note:

Front pass. window motor out. Guy claimed it happened right after he bought the replacement (a 745, current style), so he did not fix. Also saw condensation in the headlight lenses. Other than that, from a quick walk around and peak under the hood, look nice and clean.

Asking $4,500 OBO due to the As Is factor. Claims to have had multiple offers, I'm sure much lower (due to the As Is factor!)

If you want to put in on the pile, I got a phone number! It's near me in Voorhees.

explorerx4

For some reason I remember reading somewhere about some wheels sold by Tire Rack that turned out to have some problems.
Could have been bending.

andre1969

What's odd about that is I generally dislike the boxy body styles of that era's cars.

One thing I think really helps the style of the Seville is those 15" wheels and the fairly wide track. They fill out the wheel wells and give the car a nice, stable looking stance. The car is fairly narrow overall, so it doesn't overhang the wheels like a lot of cars from that era did.

I also find th proportioning of the Seville to be just about right, with relation to the hood, passenger cabin, and trunk. Once cars started downsizing and getting boxier, often the passenger cabins were a bit large in relation to the hood or trunk, and it could give them a bit of an awkward look. The downside is that a Seville really isn't all that roomy inside for a car that's on a ~114" wheelbase and is around 205" long overall. But, at least it looks good!

fintail

That car sums up GM in a way, especially for styling....when they get things wrong, they can get them really wrong, but when they do it right, they really do it right

qbrozen

Thanks, stick, but I'm sticking to my guns that it has to be '92 or older so I can put it on classic insurance. ('92 is close enough as it will be eligible in just 3 months)

stickguy

I missed that part. But don't you run into problems actually using it a lot? And unless you fib, it needs to get a garage bay, right?

im_brentwood

Spot on as usual!

I think that the problem with this Seville is that, aside from miles and condition, what's so special about it? Now, if it was a D'Elegance in 2-tone Black and Silver with an Astroroof? Or if it had factory airbags?

Well then it might be something interesting. Meanwhile it's a super low mileage version of a car that's not hard to find in nice shape; nice 75-79 Sevilles are not tough to find to begin with.

And then what do you do with it? Have a trailer queen 70s Seville? Yeah, then you'll be the one guy who has one.

If that was an old Vette, a 50s Hardtop/Wagon/Ragtop, a Muscle car, etc.. then it's a car that could bring silly money as there's plenty of those that are trailer queens, and the Corvette guys especially like to argue about how the factory grease dripped out of factory fittings.

If there's two guys who REALLY want it I could see it bring $10-15k, buuut... It's like that 92 XJ-S with something like 20k miles on it that sold at Barret Jackson in the spring for crack pipe money ($44k), one sale do not make a market.

ab348

Well, if I understand Shifty correctly, none of those options would make any difference in his view.

Nobody is suggesting it should bring Corvette money.

As I said, you cannot have a "market" for a vehicle that is unique.

qbrozen

But don't you run into problems actually using it a lot? And unless you fib, it needs to get a garage bay, right?

Ya know, I'm not sure if they REQUIRE a garage (edit: i just looked and they do). I do have one, though. The GTI is currently occupying it, but that's not necessary. I could easily give it up for her toy.

They allow, if I'm not mistaken, 6k miles a year, which is quite a bit. In any case, in all my years with them, they have NEVER followed up with me to see how many miles I'm driving.

But, you did make me just look to see the number of miles (which I couldn't find), and in my reading, I found some language about maybe not covering 4-door sedans (of a certain age) that concerns me. So I just sent them an email.

They guy who's 735 I test drove told me he had it insured under classic insurance. He told me the company name, but I forgot what it was. So there is some company out there that will insure it.