Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

texases

"As I said, you cannot have a "market" for a vehicle that is unique. "

And this one's "unique"?

lemmer

Unique means one of a kind. So, no.

andre1969

Maybe "uncommon" would be a better description? I guess even that could be debatable, but with all the car shows I go to, it's not like I see Sevilles in that kind of condition, with miles that low, on a regular basis. And trust me, at car shows I tend to hang out in the 70's section, so if they were there, I'd notice! :P

In the end, I guess it just boils down to supply and demand. If there are more people who want a car like this than there are cars available, it will command a premium. If there aren't, it won't.

qbrozen

Received a reply:

Thank you for your e-mail. We can consider these types of vehicles under our special interest program for newer model collector vehicles. With vehicles 1980 through 1989 we will need to see that they are in very good to excellent condition, carry a minimum value of $5,000, do not exceed 3,500 miles annually, are not used for any back-up or regular/daily-use transportation, garaged when not in use, and that they daily-use vehicles are at least twenty years old or newer.

With vehicles 1990 through 1999 we will need to see that they are in excellent condition, carry a minimum value of $10,000, do not exceed 3,500 miles annually, are not used for any back-up or regular/daily-use transportation, garaged when not in use, and that your daily-use vehicles are at least ten years old or newer.

And I wouldn't let the value equation scare me. None of my past cars with Hagerty have been worth their minimum requirement on the open market, but I just have to say that they are. And, actually, it seems they've lowered their requirement. I believe, for my cars in the past, I had to put $7500 as the value. I'm pretty sure that's what I had to put for the Alfa, anyway.

texases

That's my point. While I'm sure there aren't lots of low mile Sevilles out there, there are a few. If one says that is has to have this exact combination of options/colors/etc., well, maybe it's 'unique', but so what? That's not what makes a car valuable to the market. Maybe to a collector (well it would need to be 2 collectors) who have some personal need (I had one when it came out, that kind of thing).

qbrozen

Received a reply:

Thank you for your e-mail. We can consider these types of vehicles under our special interest program for newer model collector vehicles. With vehicles 1980 through 1989 we will need to see that they are in very good to excellent condition, carry a minimum value of $5,000, do not exceed 3,500 miles annually, are not used for any back-up or regular/daily-use transportation, garaged when not in use, and that they daily-use vehicles are at least twenty years old or newer.

With vehicles 1990 through 1999 we will need to see that they are in excellent condition, carry a minimum value of $10,000, do not exceed 3,500 miles annually, are not used for any back-up or regular/daily-use transportation, garaged when not in use, and that your daily-use vehicles are at least ten years old or newer.

And I wouldn't let the value equation scare me. None of my past cars with Hagerty have been worth their minimum requirement on the open market, but I just have to say that they are. And, actually, it seems they've lowered their requirement. I believe, for my cars in the past, I had to put $7500 as the value. I'm pretty sure that's what I had to put for the Alfa, anyway.

Mr_Shiftright

Correct. Those options wouldn't make much difference on a common car like a Seville, but I believe we were considering a 2D Coupe de Ville Brougham D'Elegance ??? and as a 2D with the D'elegance package and astroroof, this would be a more desirable and rarer vehicle (although not big bucks, either).

There is certainly a visible "market" on 77-79 Sevilles. I did an eBay search and found 451 past sales, with an average price of $5700.

So they seem plentiful, and if we gave that pristine low mileage one a 50% bump off average, ( a generous bonus of 1.5X, I think) that would put it at $8500, which was exactly the asking price of the 44K miles one I posted earlier

So I would say that around $8000 is the averaged-out real world money for an extremely low miles Seville, based on price guides, 450 auction results, and some comparables for sale. Me? I'd offer $6K for one and thus be reasonably assured of coming out even when I dispose of it. I'd be buying on the low end of the average sales.

Please be assured I'm not trying to "win" an argument here, just trying to lay out how appraisers arrive at approximate market value, and the methodology they might employ.

Our work tries to be evidence-based, not opinion based. Infallible? No, of course not.

gsemike

I'd say he's over by about 5 times

Mr_Shiftright

He must be confused. He thinks he has a GNX? I'm not sure what this car actually is. Looks like it was just a LeSabre that had a re-sized rear window glass and a louvre fitted, and that's it. No turbo, NADA. GM apparently cancelled the project so there's this short run of cars with this window.

i'm not sure how a piece of glass and a stamped louvre translates into $50K---I guess we'll find out if anyone cares about this oddball or not.

I'm inclined to price it like a regular Grand National, so he's probably 2.5X over, not 5X over.

This seems to be a case of presuming that because an option is rare that it's a big deal.

A GNX puts its mouth right at the gas pedal, but this is just a painted-up LeSabre with a funny rear window, seems to me.

Maybe I could be further enlightened here, but I don't get it.

MORE INFO: http://www.lesabret-type.com/LeSabreGN.html

andre1969

I had vaguely recalled some kind of LeSabre "Grand National" package, but had to google it and came up with the same site you did. Basically, they only ran off 112 or 117 of them so that they could qualify it as a stock car for the Winston Cup.

You really think that thing would be worth $20K?! It's just a LeSabre coupe with a column shift, split bench seat, 150 hp 3.8 V-6, and a botched-up quarter window.

Heck, I'd rather have an '87-89 LeSabre T-type. At least they had bucket seats and a floor shift, full gauges, a quicker 2.97:1 axle (versus 2.84:1 for that '86 thing) and the '88-89 models were a bit stronger, with 165 hp.

Mr_Shiftright

Well it was just a WAG....I was working on the "greater fool" theory that on a one-time basis, if your skill with ad-writing is good enough, you can pass on what you got stuck with...in theory.

I was thinking of generously pricing it at the very top of the pyramid for a Regal T-Type coupe.

gsemike

I always defer to Shfty but I'll hook up with Jennifer Anniston before he gets 25 grand for that

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's why I don't ever base a market on one sale, because every now and then I see a car sell for so much more than its worth that i've stopped saying "it'll never happen".

lemko

Geeze, when I first saw the top of the ad, I thought it was for a Buick Grand National! Shoot, I really liked my 1988 Park Avenue, which is similar to this car, but no way would I even pay $50,000 for one that was brand new from the factory.

qbrozen

This guy obviously doesn't know of the invention of masking tape.

xwesx

2002 Tii Lawn Ornament

Mr_Shiftright

Looks like a VIN plate and an empty engine block to me...I doubt the injection is good anymore---that would be like leaving a watch outside for a few years.

Might be good to make a Tii clone.

explorerx4

my new Explorer will never be a classic (duh!), I have a great piece of provenance.
When I picked it up it, had a piece of plastic behind the 3rd row seat with the build sheet taped to it.
The salesman said he had never seen it before and just to keep it.
After puzzling over it for a few days, I figured out that it fit on the right front fender,
so it must have gone down the line with it as it was put together.

andre1969

I don't know if it's the case anymore, but sometimes they'd stuff 2-3 build sheets in various secluded spots in a car. My '69 Dodge Dart GT had one stuck under the passenger side bucket seat, tucked up in the springs. I remember finding another one somewhere, but forget where now.

Mr_Shiftright

Well, that '77 Cadillac Seville with 7K miles on it did not meet reserve at $8700 bid, with 18 bidders.

If we interpret the results as "market correct", we now know what the best '77 Seville in the galaxy is possibly worth.

If we do not interpret the results as "market correct", then we'd have to say that the seller was quite foolish in not accepting an $8700 bid.

Given that this Seville cost $13,500 new, I'd say that as a collectible, it's not a very good prospect for the future and that "saving" the car as an investment (if that was the intention) was a bad idea.

qbrozen

Found the wife a toy car last night. An '86 300E with 93k miles in great condition. I HOPE it doesn't turn into a project. My gut tells me I may have paid a bit much ($3k), but it was by far and away the best car we've seen in these weeks of searching and I just didn't feel like travelling all over the state to look at these dogs. And maybe I didn't pay too much but I'm just a bit gunshy on these Benzes anymore. I know it will be a pain to upkeep, but I know the wife likes driving them.

Like I said over on the CCBA board, I do feel like this could be a local showcar if we wanted to bother. It certainly blows away some of the stuff I have seen on display in terms of condition. And, yes, I know its not a terribly interesting car to see at a show, but that doesn't seem to stop some of these people. I went to one yesterday that had all of about 30 cars and maybe 10 actually should have been there. I mean, really, why are you displaying your dirty F150??

Here's the pic I took with my phone. It is more of a yellowish gold in person (kind of looks dark tan in this pic to me).

srs_49

I think that looks damn fine for a 25 year old car! Is that the original paint?

Mr_Shiftright

That's not too much for a super clean car with (apparently) no great needs.

qbrozen

yes, all original.

Considering I sold my 164k mile 190E in rough shape for $2k... yeah, $3k probably isn't too much to spend.

Shifty: any thoughts/opinions on classic insurance. I'm looking to find a company that doesn't restrict driving to the extent Hagerty does. I've read of one called Sneed, but the only internet site I've found with that name doesn't mention classic insurance.

fintail

Looks good. W124s keep on depreciating, I think you got a fair deal - they are legitimate bargains now IMO as few of them will touch 5K. Heading for the apex of MB quality, and it was actually considered to be a very fast car when new. I hope it treats you well, and you keep it up.

hpmctorque

Congratulations! I love that E generation. I also like the 190s, but the 300s have a reputation of being much better cars.

I also wondered whether the paint was original.

Mr_Shiftright

The ones I know restrict mileage to some degree and require indoor storage. I don't think, if you cant' meet their requirements, that you should risk it. If you have an accident and they check mileage or the situation, they can deny your claim entirely. You aren't saving THAT much that you have to drive around paranoid all the time.

qbrozen

Actually, it is quite substantial. You are talking $100 vs ~$800 with my regular insurance.

I actually found a post from you a while ago in another thread with a list of insurance companies. The first on the list is right here in NJ (American Collectors Insurance) and they have a 7500 mile per year option that allows for occasional use for mundane purposes such as a backup car. So I'm running through the application process with them. The autoquote thing so far said $80, but I don't believe that has taken the 7500 policy into account yet. I'll let you know how it turns out.

texases

When I think of MB's I'd like to actually own, that's at the top of my list. I came close to buying a late v8 version, got my ES300 instead. While I'm sure I'd have enjoyed driving the MB more, I'm also sure my costs over the last 15 years have been less with the ES...

Mr_Shiftright

Huh. Are you going to carry comp/collision on it? 7500 isn't too bad. The difference in California for me is only $125 vs. $300, so I wouldn't bother for that small amount. They may require an appraisal if you bump the value too high.

qbrozen

yes, I'll carry full coverage that matches or comes close to my primary policy. She'll never drive it 7500 miles. The bimmer and Saab were used quite a bit and those only accumulated 6k per year.

I'm only insuring it for $5k. Nothing crazy.

When I get the car home, I'll take a full battery of high-res pics for the album and post the link.

qbrozen

As promised, here are pics after driving it home today.

hpmctorque

It's really nice! And the mileage is low too. Unless there's something mechanical that isn't visible you got a bargain.

fintail

Yeah, like I mentioned in the other forum, it looks great - I think it would easily be showable at a MBCA event anyway. None of the usual wear and tear spots seem to be showing here - it was babied.

michaellno

q - hard to believe that car has over 90K on it. Both the body and the interior look as if it has 1/4 the miles.

Excellent, excellent buy. Let's hope those 'minor' mechanical issues don't cause you too much grief.

andre1969

that is a really sweet ride! I think it looks great...beautiful condition, and that style has really aged gracefully. Are those seats real leather, or that MB-Tex stuff? If they're a facsimile of real leather, I'd say they did a pretty good job of imitating it!

fintail

The pattern on it looks like leather, but it is tough to tell...real leather was usually perforated then, but the tex would have a fake perforated pattern. I think tex was standard in those, with leather an option. Tex is a good fake leather anyway...at the last show where I had my fintail, someone thought it was leather.

qbrozen

thanks, folks.

Not sure if leather or not. I really don't know how to tell. It seems to be a bit more pliable than the 190s I've had. Not sure if that means anything other than it was just better cared for.

It drives like it has fewer miles, too. I mean, even the turn signal stalk requires a good tug because it is still so stiff from lack of use. I looked in the glovebox after getting home and found the original service booklet in there with a good number of entries for standard maintenance, including things like tranny fluid and brake fluid changes.

So the trip to see the seller yesterday and deliver the rest of the money and get the title was a bit more enlightening. It became obvious this guy is really uptight, anal-retentive, maybe obsessive compulsive. I hadn't seen the garage before, but saw it this time ... he actually had a floormat under each tire. Garage floor was spotless. The way he dressed, the way he wore his hair, the way he handled the paperwork ... all to the letter. I can't imagine what he put himself through just to find a car that met his standards.

fintail

Was he the original owner? I don't recall if you mentioned the history.

Now that I think about it, aftermarket stereo, so probably not.

qbrozen

just the 2nd owner, and he only had it for a little over a year before he realized it was a poor choice as a daily driver for a non-mechanically-inclined person.

fintail

How much did he sink into it over that year? I wonder if it sat idle before he got it.

xwesx

I will agree with the more prompt amongst us - very nice, q!

Looking at that interior, I can't believe that the car is 25 years old, let alone the 90,000 miles.

jwilliams2

Very nice car. Looks like Tex to me. I had an '86 300E, just as nice. Sold it at 240,000 miles about 10 years ago and it's still on the road. That car was solid!

Interesting note. I also had bought a new 86 535i, 5 speed. Needed major motor work at a little over 100k, and just didn't hold up nearly as well as the Benz.

fintail

I am thinking it is tex too - perforations don't look like they go all the way through, which is how tex is textured. Nothing wrong with it, in some ways better than leather - looks and feels like it 90%, with 95% less maintenance and 99% less aging.

qbrozen

I don't know all that he spent, but he did the aforementioned work with the fuel injection, as well as full service and tune-up, new battery, new tires, new brakes, retrofitted the AC to 134.

Yes, it did sit for a while. Not to mention it wasn't used all that much throughout its life. Per the service history in the book, even when it was new it was only driven 6k per year, trailing off dramatically in the late '90s. According to the autocheck report, it was recorded as having 82k miles back in 2002. This guy bought it in June 2010 with 88k. And his work on the fuel system, which included flushing out old gas, was a necessity I presume. Since then, his daily commute totalled 20 miles a day round trip. So now it has ~93k.

qbrozen

by the way, I finally jumped through the hoops with American Collectors Insurance. I was told that, in order to get the 7500-mile "freedom" policy, the car had to have an agreed value of $10k. I said I had no problem with that if they didn't. She asked for pics and I sent the same link you guys viewed. She wrote back and said it is in excellent condition, so she has no problem with the $10k value and approving the 7500-mile/year policy with $500 comp/collision deductible. Total premium is $140.98 for the year.

I think I'll have to transfer the MR2 to them, too. Good communication so far and I believe it will only be about $60 for a regular low-mileage policy for the 'yota.

xwesx

Really?! That's dirt cheap. I'll have to look into something like that for my old rigs. Do they have to be in collector quality condition?

fintail

That is cheap. I have but 5K value on my fintail, with Hagerty, costs $100 year plus any optional extras. Thinking of raising that after reading an article in Sports Car Market about a guy who had a ponton that was wrecked...maybe after I do some renovations next year.

Is there an age limit through that firm?

fintail

That makes sense with the FI stuff. The car sat idle and got gummed up...hopefully didn't cause other issues, but you will know soon if it did. You got brakes, tires, tuneup...this stuff is a substantial part of your purchase price. I think you scored.

bhill2

Looks like Tex to me

I'll pretty much guarantee that it's Tex. It looks just like the interior in my '85 380SE (I don't know why it's Tex, but it is). The good news is that the stuff is incredibly tough, and basically immortal.