Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

Overdrive must be engaged by the driver on a standard shift car, either manually or electronically. Modern automatics use computer speed sensors and solenoids to do this. .

On modern automatics (or any transmission), isn't "overdrive" simply a transmission gear that's a tall enough ratio (1.00:1 or less), which makes the engine turn at a lower rpm than the axle?

Maybe it's the lockup in the torque converter you're thinking of, that needs a sensor or solenoid to activate?

omarman

I would think that's true for modern cars, starting around 1980. I remember there was an aftermarket "Hone-O-Drive" unit in the 70s which could be adapted to most any rear-drive car, but I don't recall if anyone was still offering something like that as a factory or dealer install option.

In '89 I bought a Ford Probe with the Mazda 5-speed manual in which both 4th and 5th gears were overdrive: .914 ratio in 4th gear and .717 in 5th gear. You could tell that 3rd gear was exactly 1:1 ratio because the tach and speedo needles would turn perfectly in sync. I think the old Porsche 914 also had a 5-speed with overdrive in 4th and 5th gears - although nothing else too "modern" was built into that car.

Wonder who made the last passenger car line offering a "splitter" or external overdrive from the factory/dealer?

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, torque converter solenoid, but that doesn't have to be used with an overdrive necessarily. I think all modern transmissions are shifted electronically, or most of 'em.

stevedebi

"Wonder who made the last passenger car line offering a "splitter" or external overdrive from the factory/dealer? "

I remember driving with a neighbor in his 74 Volvo. It had an overdrive button on the shifter. I'm not sure if that is the sort of thing you mean.

bhill2

"Wonder who made the last passenger car line offering a "splitter" or external overdrive from the factory/dealer? "

I remember driving with a neighbor in his 74 Volvo. It had an overdrive button on the shifter. I'm not sure if that is the sort of thing you mean.

Actually Volvo used that overdrive into the '80s. I think most cars had gone to 5-speeds with an integral overdrive ratio or two by then.

fintail

Was the odd transmission found in the Mitsubishi Colt back around 1980 anything like this?

bhill2

Was the odd transmission found in the Mitsubishi Colt back around 1980 anything like this?

Good memory. Yes, I am sure that was an external (splitter) overdrive. Chevy put the same sort of setup in the Corvette in the '80s. As a point of interest (?), Rambler had a similar setup in the mid 60s.

Mr_Shiftright

Volvo's overdrive was the Laycock British system, not the American cable system.

bhill2

Volvo's overdrive was the Laycock British system, not the American cable system.

Indeed it was. But it was an external overdrive as opposed to an overdrive ratio in the transmission itself. Oddly enough, at least in the '72 that I had, the overdrive only operated on top gear of the 4-speed main transmission, so it functioned just like an overdrive 5th gear would.

Mr_Shiftright

I rebuilt one of those once. I think it was the hardest mechanical job I ever attempted.

omarman

Originally I was thinking old school domestic but I agree, that twin stick Mitsubishi is a great example. Really was unusual to see a splitter design with FWD. I never thought about imports like Volvo in any of this but it's kind of interesting to learn how long they lived without proper 5-speeds too.

The Corvette 4+3 was definitely the old school, domestic, RWD layout I had in mind. Hard to polish the "America's Sports Car" title back then when a 5-speed was available in so many other bow tie vehicles - but not the Corvette.

Now you have me curious about the imports from that era, especially the Volvo overdrive on your '72. Since the overdrive only engaged in 4th gear, maybe it wasn't rated to handle the stress in lower gears. It turned out that the overdrive component of the Doug Nash 4+3 trans was not nearly as strong as the Super T10 4-speed it was adapted to.

fintail

With all this overdrive talk, it makes me think, could the lurchy manual-kickdown 1st gear in my fintail (auto, 2nd gear start) that wants to upshift at around 5mph be considered an "underdrive"? :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

No but you could call it a "low-low" or a "granny gear" (the latter now considered politically incorrect).

bhill2

Since the overdrive only engaged in 4th gear, maybe it wasn't rated to handle the stress in lower gears.

I had never thought of it, but you could be right. My Volvo was a 164E, the six cylinder model. I now wonder if they used the same overdrive unit that they put in the four cylinder, and it couldn't handle the torque in a lower gears. Did anyone out there have a four cylinder Volvo with overdrive, and if so, did the overdrive operate on the lower gears?

jwilliams2

I learned to drive on my Dad's then newish '54 Ford Country Squire with a V-8, 3 on the tree, and overdrive. It had a knob on the dash to engage the overdrive, and the thing I most remember was the way it would coast....almost like engaging the clutch. Course, I was more interested in acceleration than mileage, so didn't use it much. Used to do unspeakable things in that wagon, including street racing at every opportunity. That was one durable car, and lasted till some years later when my little brother blew the motor on a high speed run on the new Interstate. :sick:

Mr_Shiftright

your 164 used the same basic overdrive but a different (and very clunky) transmission than the 4 cylinder cars.

I think the 4th-gear-only was just how it was rigged at the factory--I know that my friend's MGB-GT could utilize overdrive in 2, 3 and 4, but he may have wired it up that way. It wouldn't be hard to do that.

andre1969

just in case I end up walking home today! Got my cranky blue '79 New Yorker started, and figured I'd take a chance driving it to work. It actually behaved fairly well. Started on the second try. I think it would have on the first, but it has a loose wire or something going bad on the starter, or some glitch where sometimes when you turn the key it just clicks, sometimes the starter will turn for a few seconds and then stop, and sometimes the car fires right up.

Then, the sucker died when I put it into reverse. Thankfully, it started right up again, and didn't stall any more. It does seem to be idling a bit slow when I come to a stop, so I might have to increase it a bit.

The real test, I guess, will be when I go out for lunch. In the past, the car always got me to work, but it was a toss of the dice as to whether it would get me back home!

qbrozen

I'm quite surprised by this bid so far. More surprised the reserve hasn't been met!

I had no idea retractable hardtops went back this far.

texases

Oh, they go back waaaay farther:

qbrozen

ok. so what is that and is that how it came from the factory? is that power operated or manual?

texases

It's a 1938 Peugeot 402 Eclipse DeCapotable, factory produced, and I'm guessing it's manually operated.

andre1969

Wasn't there some Peugeot or Citroen model from the 1930's that had a retractable hardtop? Or was that just a show car?

Those '57-59 Ford Skyliners seemed to have a pretty good survival rate; at least I always see a good number of them at the Ford show in Carlisle PA.

I heard that they weren't such a hot seller partly because of the price. IIRC, a regular Ford Sunliner convertible started around $2500, while the Skyliner retractable was around $3500. $1000 doesn't seem like a lot of money, IMO, for that kind of technology, but at the time it represented a 40% increase in the price of the car! And that was just base price. I'm sure once you added a bunch of options, the price went up fast. My grandparents had a '57 Fairlane 500 4-door hardtop that was pretty well-equipped, and Granddad said it was around $3500, as equipped, so it probably had at least $1,000 in options tacked on.

lemko

My Uncle Johnny had a red and cream 1957 Ford Skyliner back in the day. I heard the top was troublesome and would often become stuck halfway down or up. Fortunately, there was some kind of manual override. Uncle Johnny soon traded it for a new 1959 Chevrolet Impala.

Mr_Shiftright

The Mazda R 100 is kind of a historically significant car, so that might explain it It was the first Mazda model imported into the US, oen of the first commercially successful rotary engines, and, in its slightly earlier forms, it was quite successful in racing. On occasion it would go head to head with Porsche 911s (and usually lose, but that's beside the point).

This is kind of a Jay Leno car--one that you can talk about because nobody else knows much about them.

Mr_Shiftright

The Skyliner was a marvel of engineering. It had all these micro-switches that need to be lined up *just so* and also had to trigger in a certain sequence. If anything was off just a hair...bingo...no retraction. I think there was some sort of manual over-ride but your arm fell off before you got the top down.

The first Peugeot 402 Eclipse retractable was, in fact, power-operated, in 1935.

I think people tend to forget that France at one time was the absolute leader in innovation in automotive design and engineering. This had probably waned considerably by 1935 (hence the super-tricky 402 for a swan song perhaps?) but at the turn of the century, it has been said that "Germany gave birth to the car, France provided the nursery to make it grow, and the United States brought it to maturity".

Sort of the opposite of what happened in aviation---the USA gave it birth and France produced the first modern airplane.

andre1969

I think there was some sort of manual over-ride but your arm fell off before you got the top down.

I remember years ago, seeing a Skyliner in a junkyard near Culpeper VA, that had its top eternally in the half-up position. I always thought it was kind of odd that it was left that way. I'd think they would have cranked it down, if possible, to try protecting the interior, but maybe it simply broke in that position?

jwilliams2

The Skyliner was a marvel of engineering. It had all these micro-switches that need to be lined up *just so* and also had to trigger in a certain sequence. If anything was off just a hair...bingo...no retraction. I think there was some sort of manual over-ride but your arm fell off before you got the top down.

Had one of these back in the 50's. No problems with the top at all, and had it for 3 or 4 years. Definitely turned heads whenever the top went up or down. It was a fun car at the time.

Mr_Shiftright

junkyards rarely give a ....hoot....about such things.

Here's a write-up of how the top worked:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1957-1959-ford-styling10.htm

andre1969

junkyards rarely give a ....hoot....about such things.

Yeah, good point. Plus, when that car originally came into the junkyard, more than likely it was worthless, just an old car that was overly complicated that nobody wanted.

I think the last time I even went in a junkyard was Columbus Day weekend in 2006, after someone stole one of the wheels off my Intrepid. Hubcap, lugnuts, and all. Back in the day, if I saw a car with the windows rolled down, I'd try to roll them up to help protect the interior from the elements. Probably hard to do nowadays though, since most cars have had power windows for some time now.

It's probably kinda silly to do something like that with a junkyard car, but who knows? It just might save some interior part that someone else is looking for.

tjc78

It's probably kinda silly to do something like that with a junkyard car, but who knows? It just might save some interior part that someone else is looking for.

Sounds like something I would do. The other thing that always bothered me about junkyards was if someone needed a part that was hard to get to they would simply punch a hole or start ripping parts out. It would suck for the person who needed the part they destroyed.

hpmctorque

"...it has been said that 'Germany gave birth to the car, France provided the nursery to make it grow, and the United States brought it to maturity' ".

Where's Italy's place in automotive history?

fintail

Engine fires? Or is that the British? :shades:

hpmctorque

If I had to guess, I'd say Lucas electrical systems caused more fires than the Italian ones, but maybe you know more about this than I do.

Mr_Shiftright

Italian electrical systems never had a good enough ground to catch fire.

But that was then and this is now. Even Harley Davidson uses Marelli electrics.

Probably the Italian contribution to the early automobile was in racing, with FIAT. But they were soon eclipsed and not to dominate again until post WW II.

omarman

Where's Italy's place in automotive history?

hpmctorque

Didn't Alfa Romeo win some important races before WWII? I think Enzo Ferrari worked for the Alfa racing team before establishing his company after the war.

Also, weren't the Italians at the forefront on the widespread use of 5-speed transmissions and overhead cam engines on popularly priced cars, plus fuel and space efficiency?

fintail

I was thinking of the rep modern high end Italians have for "thermal events", or maybe the cars are just committing suicide to get away from their owners. I think 80s Maseratis were also good at this. Of course, nothing says "engine fire" like an old Jag.

texases

Here's the ALFA P2 from the '20s, supposedly the first racer with a transaxle, won an lot of races, killed a few drivers:



More here

fintail

Had my old beast project car out today...got the idle speed set almost perfectly, running like a dream, started up on the first turn with just a couple cranks of the starter after being idle for 2 weeks - gotta love MFI. I am certain the weird noise is coming from the generator - I listened for it when setting the idle, so that will be a fun eventual repair. It ran a little hot when I drove it on the highway 2 weeks ago - checked the coolant this morning, no change, so I am reasonably sure it is not a head gasket issue. And had a fun run in with a woman in an Expedition who was ogling the car at a stoplight, even took pics of it.

qbrozen

It was always a question in my mind what BA Baracas would drive if he ever hit it big. That question has been answered!

stickguy

I've been to that dealer a few times, but not for a number of years. Guess they are still there though! They seemed to have pretty nice stuff in the old days at least.

omarman

And now for something completely different: 1968 De Tomaso Mangusta barn find. This is the famous (infamous?) Italian sports car which was said to punish drivers with vicious understeer and oversteer at the same time. And yes the $99,999 asking price is absurd in its current state of disrepair but... even after everything is done and sorted, is there a market for these cars at +$100k? :confuse: No idea really.

EDIT: Note the seller's remark, "Bring a Trailer Please keep out." Too funny.

fintail

Crackpipe. Who knows what else it is missing. It is cool looking and all, but in that price range there are ample cars to choose from. For it to ever be appreciated it will need those 5 missing wheels, and you can't find those at the local scrapyard.

"Bring a Trailer Please keep out." = "Don't clue me in on my insanity and uncontrollable ego"

Mr_Shiftright

Crackpipe with adulterated crack. I would say, based on the photos and description, that a fair market value would be something like $25,000 maximum (and I am feeling generous right now). On the plus side, it is a Euro car so worth a bit more.

For the price he is asking, one should be able to find a very clean, totally sorted out running car. Near show quality actually.

Presuming one even wants one.

Soooo, you cannot get to THERE from HERE very easily. This car needs a total restoration, every nut and bolt. Can you do that for $75000? I don't think so. Well maybe if you owned your own body shop, did all the mechanicals yourself and had 5 years spare time.

TRIVIA: The name "Mangusta", meaning "mongoose" in Italian, was a dig on the Ford Cobra. The mongoose is the natural enemy of the cobra.

Well good luck with that on a race track. :P

The problem here is that you end up with a car that many people like to look at but nobody wants to actually drive (unless they really like scaring themselves. Handling is atrocious.)

it's an expensive coffee table IMO.

Somebody will take it on, but not for that money. You'd be a damn fool.

stickguy

well, the body does look pretty solid. So that is a plus!

Though on this car, you can't even cheat to save money by sticking in a US V8, since they did it for you.

Interior looks a tad shabby there.

And can't imagine trying to find parts for that beast.

Mr_Shiftright

You don't "find" pieces, you MAKE pieces. And this is the rarer Euro model, so double that.

I just don't know where the seller pulled this price from. He seems knowledgeable, yet his pricing speaks of ignorance to the marketplace.

I suppose I should heed my own advice when I tell people "asking prices are merely the seller exercising his First Amendment Rights" :P

gsemike

With one of the best car for sale photos ever

andre1969

I'm disappointed...with the description you just gave I was expecting to find a hot woman or two sprawled across the hood in a seductive position!

texases

That is one HELL of a great camo paint job...

explorerx4

It's also an anagram for 'A Mustang'.