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But great scott! It's BTTF with that truck Marty!
I bet that expensive 4-Runner will never be miled up. A garage queen it has been and will be.
Precisely. Back in 1985, Detroit's biggest strength was in areas the Japanese did not compete: mid and full-sized cars, and full-sized trucks. The biggest car, in terms of interior space at least, that the Japanese offered here in 1985 was the Camry, a compact. The Cressida and Maxma were a bit bigger overall, but less space efficient, and smaller inside.
Now, the Camry was a good compact, and pretty roomy for a compact, so if it had been allowed to sell at its full potential, it probably would have swayed a lot of mid-sized car buyers.
In 1985, the Japanese were still behind the curve in three critical areas: automatic transmissions, air conditioning, and rust resistance. In smaller cars, those areas weren't as important, but with more expensive, mid and full-sized cars, they were crucial.
Now, if they had been able to sell everything they could ship over, the Japanese would have done a good number on cars like the Escort, Tempo, and Cavalier. But, there were still plenty of buyers who just wanted a cheap small car, and would still pick, say, a $9K Cavalier over an $11-12K Accord.
Those Japanese cars weren't exactly cheap in those days. My 1985 Consumer Guide had a Camry that MSRPed for $14,058. They also had a well-loaded Parisienne V-8 where they didn't list the MSRP, but said something along the lines of "a really nice one wouldn't set you back more than $15K or so." FWIW, my grandparents' '85 LeSabre Limited, which had just about everything you could get on a LeSabre that year, except for a sunroof and full power to the passenger seat, came to around $16,200. And that was a helluva lot more car than any Camry of the era, for a 15% price premium.
My MR2 was not the legendary bulletproof Toyota quality, and it was troublesome enough to turn me away from the brand despite being a gas to drive.
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My '85 MR2 has A/C. As a matter of fact, we (my father and I since he has the A/C equipment) just finally fixed it yesterday. Woohoo!
As for rust, mine is still quite solid. Its a nice little survivor. It did have some spots I discovered when I removed the trim in front of the rear wheelwells, but I repaired that, and hopefully that's it. Still just 94k miles. I'm pondering selling it.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The kicker is RESERVE IS NOT MET!! Are you kidding me??!! The seller and those bidders need their heads examined.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
By 1985 Detroit was being propped up with voluntary trade agreements between the U.S. and Japan. To suggest that Honda and Toyota are struggling like that today to remain viable in the U.S. market is really beyond belief.
As pointed out many times before (by many folks) Detroit's bread and butter has always been big, profitable vehicles. Big cars, big trucks, big money. If Saturn had been a gold mine we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Along with Japanese VER, Detroit survived the 80s by inventing the S-freaking-U-V. Man, I never liked those urban cowboy rides, but it was a cash cow for domestics. The 80s SUV recipe was this: Build a vehicle to fit within the fed regulations for "light truck" and then market the vehicle to the public as a regular passenger car for every man.
Voila! SUV. Big, heavy 4 door Detroit iron which made far more profit than selling every Ford Escort at MSRP and every Saturn built at a "no haggle" price!
All the fed regulations and Ralph Nader do-gooders failed to create "greatness" by fostering J-car, world car, k-car production. I am still baffled at the number of people who believe the government *saved* Detroit by forcing them to build corporate CAFE widgets. Because in response, consumers spurned Detroit en masse for the imports!
As suggested...follow the market share. Look at Detroit market share 1971 and now 40 years later? What was saved by Naderites and silly EPA kuh-niggets? I can see where improved technology and a clearer management focus has provided some bright spots out of Detroit now - such as 400 hp Mustangs and amazing Corvette race cars. But are those DOT-EPA side effects?! Nope.
One major side effect of DOT-EPA regs was the S-U-V! If this story were a book or movie, the General would have reflected on the 80s with, "How I Learned to Stop Worrying About Ralph and Love the SUV Sales Explosion." Cha-ching!
After driving some very German correct (non VW :P ) small cars back then, I could not imagine a Japanese car maker ever dominating that small car market. Only an early 70s Toyota Corona seemed like a viable competitor back then, for the U.S. market that is. But the landscape was getting littered with rusted out, cracked-aluminum head, B-210s and Corollas!
70s Japanese imports were in demand because they were cheap. And in the 80s, they were getting expensive because they were in demand.
Interesting you should say that, as my folks bought a new 1973 Toyota Corona. Root beer brown with vinyl seating (including a front bench seat and column shifter for the automatic!).
And in the 80s, they were getting expensive because they were in demand.
If you can find a copy, I would recommend that you read the book "Arrogance and Accords", which goes into detail about the corrupt practices of the American Honda sales executives in the 80's and early 90's. Some of the "high" points from the book:
1) Selling franchises for hundreds of thousands of dollars, which was pocketed directly by the execs.
2) Figuring out ways to create more dealers - Honda had a rule that a dealer couldn't be closer than 10 miles to another dealer. In Southern California, they opened a dealer in a small town in an old abandoned garage that was 10.1 miles from the next closest dealer - a dealer, I might add, that was moving to a brand new location that would have made the new dealership location too close
3) Setting up phony sales training programs and forcing the dealers to buy them for all their sales personnel
This was done because, at the time, owning a Honda dealership was similar to having a license to print money. Despite the VER's, Honda sold every car they could make at a price thousands over sticker.
If you're saying that Detroit could have survived by a) making the same obsolete cars in 1990 that they made in1985 and b) without government intervention to protect them, I'd have to respectfully disagree based on the market share figures, the stinging review of American cars in the automotive press, and on the sheer weight of the growing consumer boycott upon American cars at the time.
Those of us who lived through those times remember how bad-mouthed Detroit was---be it real or imagined or a conspiracy, nonetheless, the public's view of Detroit quality and engineering was pretty dismal.
Re: "...at the time, owning a Honda dealership was similar to having a license to print money. Despite the VER's, Honda sold every car they could make at a price thousands over sticker. "
Yes and yes. When I point those things out I'm advised to "put down the sake" because Detroit was doing just fine in 1985.
One thing that I feel many people fail to recognize about the Japanese auto industry in the 1980s.
They did their homework. Every area in which they were shown deficient, they corrected and improved in very fast cycling. They were like Ali punching out Liston.
Maybe now the aging champion of innovation is flabby and has slowed down, but I wouldn't count Japan out, not by a long shot.
If anything, now that Detroit is gaining market share (for the first time in LIVING MEMORY!!!), this competition should make them keener, leaner and smarter.
MORE ON TOPIC: I've been paying attention to how the collector car market responds to 80s cars, and how this attention reflects the attitudes of buyers of that time period. Both domestic and Japanese cars from the 80s have been pretty much scorned as collectibles (a few exceptions)--so I wonder if that will change, and if the rising tide will raise all boats or only one group?
From what I've seen the only people that care about 80s cars are people like me who appreciate the "land yachts". The mid to 80s were pretty much the end of the line for many of these cars. I wouldn't mind picking up another box body Town Car or an early 80s Electra or LeSabre. The clean ones do appear to have higher asking prices lately (at least from my informal browsing).
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The family liked it just fine. Bought for, I think, $2900 or so in 1973. Was the last new car my folks bought for 30 years (they went used until 2003 when they bought a new Hyundai Sonata).
The Corona was the car I learned to drive in. It was also the car I unfortunately totaled on my way to high school one morning in 1982.
I don't remember much about the mileage, other than my mom was able to fill it up for $5! Never took it on long trips - was used mostly for running errands around town. Decent size for a family of 4.
Rising tide? Wait, you mean there's actually some good news coming on the horizon? :P
Here is a picture to refresh your memory:
And a 1978 version, for comparison:
There is no question that having a Honda dealership was a license to print money then and it led to some pretty shoddy business practices. An old girlfriend had her heart set on an '85 Prelude. She went to the dealership and they took a $1000 nonrefundable deposit to put her on a wait list. No choice of color or options, just transmission. When the car came they packed it with every possible dealer add-on before presenting her with a take it or leave it price. Then when she bought it and brought it back for service they raked her over the coals again. This is the same dealership that, 5 years later, told me they would not even give me a price on a new Accord unless I signed a document committing me to buy it. Needless to say, I bought something else.
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You know, for some reason my folks liked to buy foreign. Before the Corona, they had a '67 VW Squareback and before that a '63 Beetle.
The only other car I remember them looking at before buying the Toyota was the Mazda RX-2 and RX-3. Both of them, if you remember, had the rotary engine and my dad was leery of the maintenance issues as well as the reduced MPG.
Ironically, my sister bought an '85 RX-7 after HS and my dad was concerned about that car as well - however, she had no problems with it whatsoever and my dad was actually impressed by it.
OTOH, my dad bought a 1970 Chevy C-10 pickup and still has it 41 years later!
It was really hard to cross-shop those cars, with domestics though. While that Corona was Toyota's "compact" car, slotting in above the Corolla, but below the Cressida, it was really subcompact in size and interior room. Now, it might have been laid out so it made better use of space than some other cars, but checking the EPA's database, it looks like you got about 80 cubic feet of passenger volume and 11 cubic feet of trunk space, in 1980. The Accord sedan was 81 interior, 10 cubic feet of trunk space. The Datsun 510 was only 79 interior, 8 cubic feet of trunk!
In contrast, your typical domestic "compact" was really a midsized car, just usually on the low-end of the EPA's midsized spectrum. Most domestics marketed as "intermediate" were at the upper end of that scale, very close to actually being full-sized cars (kinda like how the 2008+ Accord is marginally a "full size" car). The Aspen/Volare, for example, had 100 cubic feet of passenger space, and a 16 cubic foot trunk (4-door, the coupes were a lot smaller). The Fairmont was 96/17. And the 1979 Nova was 96/13. For comparison, the Malibu, which I viewed as a benchmark for domestic space efficiency at the time, was 102/17. The Granada 4-door was 93/15.
Unfortunately, those EPA tables only go back to 1978. Shame, because I'd like to see how a Dodge Dart or Maverick would compare. The AMC Condord was 90/11, which I guess would correlate to an old Hornet.
I'd imagine it must have been really hard to cross-shop the Japanese and domestics back then. A Corona was about the size of your typical subcompact, yet probably priced as much as some midsizers. If you needed the interior room, you picked the domestic. If you wanted the cheap small car, you picked the domestic. But if you wanted a slightly more "premium" small car, or simply wanted to stick it to Detroit, you bought the Corona!
Oh, absolutely. Our next door neighbors bought a 2 door Corolla not long after we got our Corona. The Corona was not a very large car at all. I remember not having a lot of room in the rear seat. The next generation Corona was a much bigger car in every respect, but still pretty small when compared to the domestics.
My best friend's family bought a 4-door Chevette hatchback in '78 or '79, and we used to take it to his grandparents house in LA (about 60 miles away) for visits. Very cramped with 3 of us in the backseat - me, my friend, and his little sister.
Corolla 4-door: 79/11 (cubic feet, passenger space/trunk volume)
Corona 4-door: 80/11
Cressida 4-door: 80/11
I wonder if the Japanese learned the trick of making cars bigger on the outside, but not bigger on the inside, from the domestics? :P
FWIW, even the 810 was only 80/8. The Mazda 626 was the bruiser of the bunch, at 81/13 for the 4-door.
FWIW, the Chevette was 79/10, and same for both 2- and 4-door hatchback.
1980 -- Chrysler was given 1.2 billion in Federal money to avoid bankruptcy. Also in 1980, Ford lost $1.54 billion, despite strong profits from the truck division and European operations. Ford lost a further $1.06 billion in 1981 and $658 million in 1982 while trying to effect a recovery. Also in 1980, Roger B. Smith named chairman. GM loses more than $750 million as car and truck sales plunge 26 percent.
What happened by the mid 80s was the result of downsizing, plant closings mergers or acquisitions of foreign companies and of course VER.
The Big Three had to totally re-invent themselves in order to compete.
Americans were turning en masse away from their products.
a market share graph of the Big Three is like an arrow pointed toward the ground.
The lack of a coherent energy policy for the USA and the decision to continue with cheap gas unless market forces caused prices to spike had as much to do with the rise of the imports as anything. They had those cars to sell, while the Detroit manufacturers were making what the market wanted up to that point. Most Americans would not choose to ride in a buzzy, bouncy 4-cylinder econobox unless the cost of fuel forced them to.
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Corolla 4-door: 79/11 (cubic feet, passenger space/trunk volume)
Corona 4-door: 80/11
Cressida 4-door: 80/11
In 1980, weren't all three of those cars still RWD? The Corolla didn't switch to FWD until 1984, and the Corona was replaced by the Camry at about the same time.
I don't think the Cressida switched to FWD until the late 80's or early 90's, IIRC.
But, what I find amazing is how small the trunks are! Seriously - 8 cubic feet in the 810?
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Yeah, they were all still RWD in '80. For 1984, here's the comparative numbers...
Corolla 4dr (FWD): 87/13
Camry 4dr (FWD): 93/14
Cressida 4r (newer design, dating to 1981 I think, but still RWD): 86/13.
FWIW, the 810/Maxima, which was in the final year of its '81-84 cycle, was at 82/10. When it redesigned for '85, it increased to 87/14, and the new '85 Cressida was bumped to 90/13.
I guess it wasn't until the first Lexus LS400 came out that the Japanese really gave us something that would be close to the American idea of a midsized car. 98 cubic feet of interior space, 14 cubic feet of trunk, and about 196" long overall.
Rusted Mister 2 not running, needs head gasket, water pump, timing belt, etc.
Pristine '83 Prelude with factory dual carb intake, but no engine pics.
1989 Cressida, one owner, 323,945 miles! Seller is offering test drive so it's still tagged/running...as of today's CL.
Somebody owed the seller money but gave him this Honda CRX instead.
By any chance do you know the numbers the Acura Legend had when it came out in 1986?
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I just looked it up, and it was 90/14 for the sedan, 86/15 for the coupe.
As for the Sprint, yeah, that's what was ultimately renamed the Metro, when GM branded their small captive imports under the Geo name. It came out as a 1985 model, and initially had a 48 hp 1.0 3-cyl. I have an old Consumer Guide from 1985 that has a test of one, and in their writeup, they said that GM claimed it could do 0-60 in about 12 seconds. I think they managed around 13, which wasn't too bad for the time. For comparison, something like an Aries/Reliant with the 2.2 or Camry was good for around 13.5. There was a Mercury Topaz in that test that took something like 15.9 seconds!
For interior volume, the EPA rates the original Sprint at 74/8.
On the Legend, which was a car I somewhat desired as a college student (even though I couldn't afford a Civic) what's interesting is that it seems to be considerably smaller than my 2008 Accord. When I got that Accord EXL I said to myself "Hey, I finally got that Legend I wanted back in 1986."
And I think my 4 cylinder, at 190 hp, makes more than the 6 of the Legend.
I liked those first-gen Legends, too, especially the coupe. I was actually a bit surprised when I read the interior volumes on the EPA's website, because they seemed like larger cars to me. I just looked up the specs, and the first Legend is about 189" long, and on a ~109" wheelbase, but only around 68-69" wide. So maybe the proportioning made it look bigger than it was?
Would it be possible to make a car today that held 4 people that weighed less than 2000 pounds and still meet the safety requirements?
I looked up the weight of the Mini Clubman recently, and it was an amazingly porky 2700 pounds. For a small car that's an awful lot.
The width of the Legend is a key, as you say. I think the Accord of the same year was only about 66 inches wide, and so the Legend was larger compared to that. But I think my 08 Accord is 72" wide.
Overall length: 141.3 inches
Overall width: 60.6 inches
Overall height: 53.5 inches
Wheelbase: 89.0 inches
For comparison, here's the stats of the new Fiat 500:
Overall Length: 139.6"
Overall Width: 64.1"
Overall Height: 59.8"
Wheelbase: 90.6"
Curb weight:
2,363 lb (stick)
2,434 lb (automatic)
A K-car was that slow? My Stepdad had an 83 Chrysler E-class with the Mitsu 2.6 and I don't remember it being all that slow. IIRC it may have been a little quicker off the line than my 89 Grand Marquis.
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It is a shame they let the CRX deteriorate to that point. Its not worth saving.
$1300 for that MR2? Well, that's good news for when I sell mine (which will be soon). I'm thinking I might be really bold and ask $4k for it. That is as long as the A/C continues working. I also have to take some mods off. I'll put the stock airbox back on, reinstall the Eibach springs in place of the coilover sleeves, and maybe put the stock steering wheel back on. I'm not sure what to do, if anything, about the exhaust.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
It seems like someone should be able to make a small but decent four door hatchback that weighs 2000. But maybe I'm wrong about that...
Here's something interesting. I think the Honda Fit weighs about 2400 pounds. And it's massively larger than a Fiat 500. And yet weighs only a little more. Strange.
Being "light" works up to a point, as the Lotus proved in racing, but "too light" can sometimes mean the car can't take certain stresses.
People today want all the gadgets they can pack into a car, and that adds plenty of weight, too.
i recall that someone recently weighed just the *wiring* in a modern car and it was some startling amount.
Yeah, I think that's about what Consumer Guide timed it at. FWIW, I think they tested one of the longer E-bodies with the 2.6 and an auto, and they got 0-60 in something like 13.3 seconds. I'd have to double-check the book to make sure, though. I think it was a Plymouth Caravelle that they tested.
They tested an '85 Grand Marquis, but didn't give a 0-60 time. They also tested a Crown Vic with the dual exhaust and quicker 3.55:1 axle (versus 2.73:1 for the Grand Marquis) and got 10.5 out of that one, so I'd imagine the Grand Marquis would've come in around 12 or a little worse?
My uncle briefly had a 1982 Plymouth Reliant with the 2.2. It was an early model, before they did the switchover to roll-down rear windows. I timed it once with a stopwatch, and I swear 0-60 came up in around 20 seconds!
The 2012 Civic was put on a diet but lost only about 75 lbs. Even that is impressive when you see that they raised the crush rating on the roof from about 10,000 lbs to 15,000 lbs. Seems good but maybe overkill? Ten years ago Ford would probably have only have made a car that size--2700 lbs--5000 lbs Crush rating at most because all that was required was 1.5 times curb weight crush protection.
Is the Mini a new classic worthy of becoming a project car, or is it too soon to even speculate about that...?
I read somewhere that the value of Chevy Metros from the early 90s had gone up. They aren't worth a lot, but more than the nothing they were worth a few years ago, because they are genuine 40 mpg cars...
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