Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

british_rover

I would add the SR20 4 cylinder motor from Nissan to that list. They went in 1991-1994 SE-R Sentras a couple of other USDM cars and JDM Sylvias(Our 240SX's). The engine stock made a little less then 200 hp in naturally aspirated form but the stock crank could support 500 plus horsepower I belive.

jaserb

Not even close on the horsepower. The SR20DE motor in a stock US spec SE-R was rated at 140 HP, although they may have been slightly under-rated. The later 2000-2002 SE 2.0s and Infiniti G20s were rated at 145. There was a non US spec, naturally aspirated SR20VE with VVT that came closer to 200 HP.

That said, it was a great little motor, torquey and revvy at the same time. I put about 25k miles on a bon e stock '93 SE-R a couple of years ago and it was a lot of fun.

-Jason

lemmer

Earnhardt!

Olds 88 - pictures in the dark encourage high bids, he thinks

Andre should buy this to go with the Crown Vic General Lee - Unending fun for a couple of thousand $.

bumpy

The SR20 is good, but it's not that good. The SR20DE did 140hp in the original SE-R, and you can push that up to 150 with free intake, exhaust, and a lighter flywheel. The variable-valve-lift-cam SR20VE did 185hp in the late Primera and that can go up to around 200hp with the same mods. The turbo SR20DET ran 200-250hp, and those can run up to 400hp or so on the stock internals.

Probably the champion in the overbuilt category is the legendary RB26DETT from the Skyline GT-R. "Officially" rated at 276hp and running more like 325-350hp stock, it can run up to 500-600hp on the stock internals and modified versions have hit 1000hp on a motor that displaces about 157 c.i. That performance isn't free; the RB weighs about as much as a Chevy small block.

andre1969

but I liked that generation of Lumina coupe. The interiors were junky and fall-apart, and things tended to break on the outside as well, but I really admired the basic shape. I thought it had more excitement to it than the '95-99 Monte, which was inoffensive but kinda bland, and more together than the '00-05 style, which has curves in all the wrong places and is just an odd mis-mash of different shapes.

Mr_Shiftright

You know, all this talk of "overbuilt" or "underrated" are really very subjective terms.

The only data you can rely on is the business end of a dyno and the odometer readings of these cars as they enter the junkyard. All the rest is just moonshine talk over a couple of beers if you ask me :P

fintail

I wish there was some kind of database of car mileages when they are junked.

Of course, with dumb old 5 digit odometers, it'd be tough.

andre1969

did the 6-digit odometer become common? I know some brands like Mercedes have used them practically forever, but with domestics and Japanese cars they were relatively scarce.

The first car I had with a 6-digit odometer was my '88 LeBaron...oddly the LEAST likely of the cars I've had to need a 6th digit!

One of my friends has a sister with a '92 or '93 Sable that her mother handed down to her. They don't know how many miles it has because it's only a 5-digit. I thought by that time most cars had gone to a 6-digit?

Once upon a time, wasn't it common to reset the odometer when a new engine was put in a car? I'm thinking like in the 40's or 50's, or before odometer tampering was considered a crime.

andre1969

at the GM nationals in Carlisle this past summer, a kid had his '68 or so Olds 88 on the dyno. I forget what engine it had...I want to say a 425-4bbl? It only put out 160 at the wheels!

Popular Mechanics, or one of those old magazines, did a dyno test of a Dodge Dart GTS with the 340, an Olds (can't remember if it was a 4-4-2 or a fullsize) and some Ford engine. It was for one of those articles where they were talking about how horsepower wasn't necessarily all it was cracked up to be.

Anyway, the 340 came out the "truest". Something like 240 hp at the wheels, or around 88%. I think the Ford came in at 75% and the Olds was really bad, at like 60%.

Supposedly, the old 340, while advertised at 275 hp really put out more like 300.

Another interesting tidbit...I remember reading an article in C&D or MT, where they tested the new 5.7 Mopar Hemi by the same standards the old 426 was, and hp came out about the same...425. I wonder what that SRT-8 6.1 would gross out at? :surprise:

lemko

Strangely enough, my 1988 Buick Park Avenue has a 6-digit odometer, (no, I'm not counting the tenths wheel!).

Mr_Shiftright

Dyno tests are also often sprinkled liberally with moonshine, because the numbers you get are totally dependent on the skill (or evil intent) of the operator.

You can in fact dial in any HP results you want. I could show you a 400HP dyno slip from a Toyota Echo----easy to do.

MILEAGES: Well there IS data that says that the average lifespan of a junked car in America is something like 11 years...of course this includes accidents, etc. so you might say "no fair".

But I say "fair" because when someone says that he intends to drive his car 400K I always remind him that statistically it is very unlikely he will get there---darn near impossible.....due to accidents, rust and other factors that have nothing to do with the "overbuilt" engine or "rugged driveline" BLAH BLAH BLAH.

I will also testify here in Edmunds Car Court that I swear that in 25 years of appraising cars, I have never once verified a claim of over 300K on an original untouched engine.

This isn't to say I don't believe it possible, but since I've never seen it (verified) I suspect it is WAY more rare than most people think it is.

fintail

MB went to 6 digits in the 70s I believe. My fintail only has 5.

What disqualifies an engine from being original? Valve job? Timing chain? Or is it a full rebuild?

british_rover

My 1989 Pontiac bonneville had the 6 digit as well. I think ford was the very last make to go to 6 digits across the board. Some early 90's taurses and F-150's still had 5 digits.

Mr_Shiftright

I think whenever you "open up" an engine it is no longer a claimant to any high mileage award, although of course it is still the "original engine"---but even a completely rebuilt engine is "original".

It's the old "George Washington's Original Axe" joke---first we replaced the head and later we replaced the handle.

I've done quite a bit of reading up on engine longevity, and most engineers seem to agree that about 175K-225K are the realistic design limits for most modern engines, after which time they might be "running" in a fashion but not really up to snuff...

xwesx

I'll certainly agree with you on that one. It is a rarity indeed to find an engine that literally has not been "opened up" in any way. That means that only that most basic of maintenance items have been replaced - like belts, hoses, etc.

The key to keeping a car running for many many miles (regardless of age) is maintenance, and that will often times mean more work than just oil and the occasional belt. Too often these days people think that they should only have to gas it and go, and occasionally take it to a Jiffy Lube. The moment they start having problems with the car it is the manufacturer's fault and they dump the car for something new.

It's all a balance of course, but $1500 a year on maintenance for a car you own outright is a heck of a lot cheaper than a new car and once you've kept a daily driver for more than 5 years, resale should not even be taken into consideration any more because you've fully depreciated it in a practical sense and anything you get off a sale is basically just salvage on it - a final bonus, if you will. I often hear people say, "I have a $2,500 repair on this car that is only worth $3,500, so I'm not going to do it." My response is, "Well, assuming you do that $2,500 repair, how long do you plan to keep it after that? Do you think you will have another $2,500 repair in six months to a year?" $2,500 doesn't buy much car on the 'new' market, so if such a repair is performed and the owner gets another 2-3 years out of it with only "normal maintenance," that's money in the bank right there and you've saved more than you would have made by selling the car now without performing the repair.

As far as accidents.... well, you cannot predict them, but you can plan for them. Obviously on a $3,500 car, it doesn't take much to total it, but it might take more than that to keep it from running if you had no other choice.

xwesx

My father had a '92 Camry LE with about 230K on it when it was sold out of the family about two years ago. That car's engine had never been opened up, but its tranny died. He and my brother swapped in a new used one, drove it for another 1K or so to feel confident in the operation of the new unit, then sold it. Assuming good maintenance from there on out, I would venture to say it could have made it to 300 unopened, but again, entirely dependent on the new owner's driving and maintenance habits and a fair bit of luck!

lemmer

How do you fudge dyno numbers? I have heard of little tricks, but not how to "create" a 400hp Echo.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, the tricks, scams, cheats and mistakes on a dyno are almost endless.

Here's how to get that 400 HP Echo you've always wanted!

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0402tur_punkdyno/

So anyway, if you are laying out money for speed equipment, keep an eye on the dyno operator is my advice. Or if you're paying for a car with a certain HP claim, do your own dyno testing on it.

I've seen too much of this nonsense...

lemmer

Next thing, you'll be telling me that K&N filters won't increase my HP by 10%

lemmer

Don't believe everything you read, or maybe she is right:

9 ways to look rich but live cheap

Buy classics. At first this sounds like an expensive move; classics always cost more. But for certain purchases, spending more may be a better investment in the long run. “I decided to buy a five-year-old BMW this year,” says Sandy deNicolais, former fashion and beauty editor of Women’s Day. “The payments for a brand-new Honda were the same. But in five years, that Honda won’t be worth as much as my BMW. The BMW will last longer, it’s higher quality, it’s got more style.”

andre1969

but what exactly, does a shift kit do for a car? My '76 LeMans has one in it, and it's the only car I've ever had with one. It does seem like the tranny shifts much quicker than your typical GM tranny (almost more Chrysler-esque), and it'll also downshift much more readily. I've never had a car with a 3-speed automatic that would downshift to second so readily at 70 mph!

Would a shift kit improve your hp at the wheels, or does it just make more effective use of the hp that's available?

andre1969

I wonder if that chick will make the same statement about BMW once the Bangled-up ones are 5 years old!

lemmer

I was thinking about the first time she spends $800 on an ac control module or needs a level 2 service for $450.

Mr_Shiftright

Can there be any greater misfortune to befall a human being on this earth than making payments on a car AND repairing it at the same time?

If she had paid cash for a very low miles 5 year old Bimmer (now well out of warranty) that might be one thing but to finance an old BMW, that's pretty reckless IMO.

As for "investment", the day the acquisition of an old BMW sedan becomes an investment, let me know...

Also she has made a fatal flaw....In five years, the new Honda might not be worth as much as her BMW is worth NOW, but unfortunately, in five years HER five year old BMW will be ten years old---LOL!

Price of a 10 year old 3 Series Bimmer---maybe $6,000.

Price of a 5 year old Honda Accord LX V-6 sedan...about $10,000

So yeah, she's wrong...by about 80%...and we are presuming the BMW will run without repairs for the next five years.

This is BADDDDDD advice.......

xwesx

Hahah.... if you're choosing your cars based on image alone, you're not FIT to give advice! But, nobody ever required actual credentials to write advice columns.....

fintail

Well, about 4 years ago I bought a nice 12 year old MB for $7000, drove it til August when I sold it without effort for $5000 (and probably could have got a little more if I tried) and bought the C43. It didn't cost me a fortune in repairs in my time with it. Sometimes a nice older car can be OK.

I think the whole "opening" an engine requirement to high mileage is too strict. Some engines are supposed to be opened for timing chains/belts and valve adjustments etc as part of maintenance.

Mr_Shiftright

What I meant was literally "opening" it up...which includes a cylinder head. You don't open the engine to replace a timing belt or chain for that matter, so that doesn't count. If you had to do a valve job, basically the engine has "failed" to remain in factory spec, so no bragging rights allowed. You've "opened" it.

This is why I said I can never verify high mileage claims. Guy claims "350K" but then you find out he blew a head gasket, cracked the original head, etc. ...or did a ring and valve job because it was puking oil. None of this counts as an untouched engine in my book. Major failure happened.

Old cars are a crap shoot...I've made out on some, got creamed on others...the point is...you never know what's going to happen. And on an old German car, when and if "it" happens, that "it" is going to hurt and demolish the entire financial equation.

You know, old cars are a nice hobby, not an investment. I'm more than happy to sell the car for somewhere near the price I paid after a couple of years. Miles used up are worth money to me after all

fintail

Oh, I thought you were talking like removing a valve cover or something.

"old cars are a nice hobby, not an investment. "

Exactly...that's why I have the fintail...I'm not seeking profit, I just like a fun toy, and as it hasn't been in daily service for several years, all I really pay for is basic maintenance, as it is reliable.

bumpy

What I meant was literally "opening" it up...which includes a cylinder head. You don't open the engine to replace a timing belt or chain for that matter, so that doesn't count.

Okay, then I almost made it with a '88 Sentra; popped the head gasket at 296k but it had been wheezing a while before that. I think the only decent candidates for the Shiftright 300k Club are late-80s Civics, Accords, and Sentras that spent the overwhelming majority of their life in 5th gear. I wonder if the computer keeps a lifetime rpm counter?

bumpy

The shift kit replaces the springs and stuff in the control valves to bump up the fluid pressure in various places in the tranny, thus quicker shifts and more aggressive kickdowns. The kit itself does nothing for power throughput, but it is often accompanied by a better torque converter with a good lockup, and that can route a few more horses to the axle. If you're a patient sort, you can buy the tranny maintenance manual off Ebay and read through it.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think there's an old Honda alive that can hold a head gasket for 300K---great cars but head gaskets were NOT their forte IIRC.

steine13

Speaking of old Hondas... I can't get that '91 Civic Si out of my head that I've posted before.

Shifty, if you're feeling magnanimous, can you make up some numbers what new tie rods and ball joints would run, and probably new bushings where applicable and whatever that car uses as "shocks"... I don't know what that suspension looks like, I ain't lookin' with 1/2 a foot of snow on the ground. It is awfully loose going over bumps, and the steering is a pretty clunky affair.

Rust-free former CA car, 207k miles, new low price $700. "Runs good", as they say around here.

Whaddayathink?

-Mathias

jlawrence01

Sounds like a case of winter car fever.

steine13

With me, it ain't seasonal...
-Mathias

lemmer

Just buy it. If it is total crap, you can sell it on ebay for what you have in it. $700 won't pay the tax on a new car. Step away from the Prisms and walk on the wild side.

stickguy

for $700, if it isn't rusty, you can't lose. Heck, I would buy it if it was by me. Plus, it is a pretty simple suspension set up, so it shouldn't be too bad getting it tightened up.

Just buy it. As noted, you could probably let it sit in the garage until spring, do some DIY clean up, and turn a profit.

fintail

Could be a decent sturdy old beast

Vertical depreciation curve

qbrozen

i wonder how many miles that bimmer has. if that was anywhere near me, i'd contact the seller to ask.

ghulet

....I don't like that the Caprice 'sat in the garage for a few years' (define 'few') and that they just fired it up and drove it on a longish trip. Not a good idea.

One of my neighbors has a first-gen 750iL, not sure what year, but probably about the same. It's his main family car (there other is an old Saturn SL, go figure), it replaced an early '80s V8 Dodge pickup; so the guy is a bit, um, eccentric in his vehicle choices. Sad thing, the Bimmer probably uses about as much gas as the Dodge truck, but costs about five times as much to repair (and has five times as many things to go wrong).

andre1969

that they would've said what engine that Caprice had. IIRC, that year you could get a 267, 305-2bbl, 305-4bbl, or 350-4bbl. Now chances are it has the 305-2bbl, but still, I wish I knew for sure!

ghulet

I'm likely inheriting my mom's old 300E in the next few weeks (she's giving it to me, free). She's somewhat 'worried', though, that I won't be able to 'maintain' it. Of course, I gave her a bit of a yes and no answer on that one. First, it's an '88, has a broken odo that shows over 300k; the car likely has over 400k (odo broke five years ago or so), so it's not worth any money. I can afford tires, brakes, belts, hoses, but obviously if it craps a transmission or something, it's dead meat. I think she has some kind of emotional attachment to this thing; either that, or she fails to realize that it's 18 years old (19 in Terry years), has 400k and is worth MAYBE $1500 as it sits. I figure, I'm getting a running, decent looking car for free, but it's just an old car.

ghulet

http://chicago.craigslist.org/car/118075952.html

Sadly, a $500 Alfa that's probably worth $500.

fintail

Yeah your mom should realize it's no collectible, just an old car. She'd be silly to replace a tranny or engine in it, too, as you can get a very nice one for less than the price of that part replacement. Good luck with it, those are very solid cars as I am sure you know, so it might hold up.

I see those Alfas around here for similar money and in similar condition. Kind of awkward, those sedans will never appreciate.

qbrozen

man. for $500 i think i'd jump on that if it at least is a runner (i have no need for a planter that size in my yard).

what can i say? i'm a sucker for alfas.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but you can buy Milanos clean and ready to go for $2,500, so you got nuthin' here.....

BMW 750 -- the human mind who has not been to this place cannot even comprehend the repair costs on this car. You would say "NO WAY"...your jaw would hit the floor with a resounding clunk. You would cry robbery! this is pornographic!....but no one can hear you scream....

stickguy

Who's looking for one of these, Lemmer?

Anyway, the ultimate project car. It's at the local Red Cross resale lot (they have a retail lot near me, and advertise in the freebie weekly car paper).

1984 Porsche 944. Black. Donor reports car ran when parked 3 years ago? Tow away condition. $150.

No pictures in these ads, but they do tend to be brutally honest.

qbrozen

i agree about the Milano ... but that's the idea. We don't really know all that this car needs. Could be quite a bit less than $2k to bring it up to snuff. Can't really tell without checking it out.

That's why i said, if its a runner, $500 could be well spent. Heck of alot of fun for $500, IMHO.

lemmer

That has to worth it in parts, for sure.

I guess "tow away condition" implies nothing more than the car might roll enough to be winched onto a flatbed.

ghulet

I wonder if the body is totally shot (rusty, or beat to hell, or both)? If not, it'd be a nice 'spare' for my stepdad's 944 (formerly my mom's), if they wanted a German planter sitting in the driveway, which I'm sure they don't.

stickguy

No idea of th econdition. But, if it is generally sound, I suppose it could have potential to be parted out, or turned into a shell for a race car of some kind.

Or let the local fire department practice the jaws of life on a nicer than usual car.

Wonder what my wife would do to me if I brought this puppy home? I could tell me some that if he can get it running he can have it for when he gets his license...