Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

I asked about the steering wheel cover - it is apparently to keep the wheel clean more than anything. She claims her dad has the car detailed yearly - but apparently not under the hood.

The colors also leave something to be desired.

fintail

I told her not to even look in books - as they probably overprice these yachts anyway. I don't know where her family came up with that price. There's a Mark V for sale locally for the same money - wouldn't surprise me if that's it. We know it's not going to bring 7K.

I think it has just enough miles to suffer from a little neglect.

omarman

I like it but can't tell much about the paint condition. Have you seen it in person? The thing about buying a nice old car (not a "classic") is that a quality paint job costs the same whether it's a '69 Z/28 or a '79 Z/28. That '78 Lincoln looks like it's got the 460/4bbl option and probably the last year for that engine in a passenger car. Somebody will want it but a good detail and more (better) pics might help - unless they just want to unload it quick for the best offer. Would it fit in your garage fintail? :shades:

fintail

I wouldn't touch it at half the market value. I have no desire for it - the colors do nothing for me, the style doesn't impress me (but those seats look very comfy), and I doubt it would fit in my garage.

I take it those cars predate clearcoat paint? Probably just needs a quality cut and polish. The sellers aren't really car enthusiasts.

fintail

A few 1978 entries from local craigslist:

Not many bigger than this

Be different with this wacky frankencar

Ouch that rust

Looks like a fair deal, very modestly optioned car

And one for Lemko

stickguy

a bordello in Reno should buy that Olds, just for the interior.

and the rust on the BMW is probably a big deal, even if he does not think so. and I wonder how he got that baby registered?

The Corolla? I had a '75 just like it, it was even Brown. No V6 of course. Could be interesting depending on how well done the job was. The engine actually looks like it fit OK, but I do seem to recall having plenty or room to the sides of the engine in there.

Mr_Shiftright

Mercury Marquis aka Nimitz -- seems like a fair deal at the price.

1978 Corolla --- I like it!

BMW 635 CSi --- he must be kidding. That car in Pebble Beach condition might be worth $10K--and you can't get from HERE to THERE for anything close to that. I'd say it's a parts car worth $750.

78 T-Bird -- same platform as the Lincoln Mark, right? Anyway, a 302 cid engine is too small for that boat IMO, but as a Sunday ice cream car for the grandkids, sure, why not?

78 Buick ---gotta love the Elvis interior.

fintail

Probably have 10K worth of rust repair on that 6er. Some of that is way too close to the shock towers for comfort = structural rust. And about how he got it registered, WA doesn't have inspections. You can drive pretty much anything here, so long as it passes emissions (in a few counties) or is exempt.

That T-Bird is on the Torino/LTD II platform. 351 must have been the largest engine offered on those, if it was offered at all. I like the low equipment level - base interior, manual windows, hubcaps, no passenger mirror, no vinyl top (which is nice)...but it looks pretty minty and is a nice odd color combo. Not many of them had such few options, as they were aimed at a relatively showy buyer.

Mr_Shiftright

The T-Bird would be a real slug, though, and a foul-handling one at that. I rather doubt that it would be a very pleasant ride, unless you were like 85 years old, going in a straight line on a flat road somewhere.

texases

I wondered about that rust near the shock tower - possible collision damage. My '79 Scirocco had that because I skated into a curb after an ice storm, bent the lower suspension arm. Repaired the arm, but when I went to sell the car the first thing the appraiser did was pop the hood, saw the flaked paint, and declined to make an offer...smart guy

Mr_Shiftright

I have seen BMWs of that era with shock tower corrosion that was so bad that when the car hit a sharp bump, the hood would fly open--having been sprung by the shock towers ramming into the lid from underneath.

ab348

Oh my, I LOVE that Buick! Reminds me of my '79 Park Avenue 4-door. The 2-doors were pretty uncommon even when new. Someone needs to grab that.

The T-bird is nice in its own way. I really liked them at the time they were new. Seeing one now they strike me as not aging well design-wise. I really think they need buckets/console or at least the split-bench seat in front. That one looks strangely rental-car-ish.

fintail

It's definitely a grandma car for cruising on country roads. I suspect a 60-something granny bought it new, thought they got a "deal" on it as it was just as well equipped as the 1967 Ford they traded in, and kept it. Now the estate is being dispersed.

fintail

The low equipment hurts it - if it was a Diamond Jubilee or Heritage, it would be a lot nicer. Stripper might be rare, but not in a good way. I like the angularity of those, but also remember my 2nd grade teacher drove a T-Bird like that, and I liked her, so the memory lives.

If the Buick is as nice as claimed, it has to be worth 4 grand.

hpmctorque

A slug, eh? Come on! Just install some new heavy duty shocks and it'll tear around the twisties with the best of them. And no electric power steering on this puppy, but rather the quick, precise feel that only the best hydraulic system can deliver.

texases

There was both a 351 and a 400 available for that TBird, so I imagine the 302 was very low on the hp, 1978 emissions controls pretty near the bottom of the barrel...

fintail

Looks like the 302 was the base engine. 134hp is sad, 248lb/ft is the only saving grace. Looks like the 400 put out a mere 166hp, but 319lb/ft. Malaisey numbers.

Mr_Shiftright

Like a hippo on ice skates you mean? :P

bhill2

Yeah, my wife and I had a '78 Bird (the car came with the wife; a pretty good deal all the way around). It had the 400 engine, and the 166 hp and 319 lb/ft of torque gave you pretty much what it sounds like; the car wasn't exactly a rocket, but made it over Tejon Pass on I-5 out of Los Angeles without the engine noticing. On the other hand, when we took route 128 from Healdsburg out to Mendicino (a route perfectly suited to a Miata) it unquestionably demonstrated Shifty's characterization 'hippo on ice skates'.

andre1969

I think Consumer Reports tested a 1977 T-bird with the 302, and 0-60 was around 13 seconds...not too bad actually, for something that size. But a 351 or 400 would be a lot better. Even though they didn't have a lot more hp, I'm sure the torque boost was welcome. I'd imagine that '78 would perform similarly, unless Ford choked the engine down. I know everybody got choked down a bit for '79, and performance suffered considerably.

I like those '77-79 T-birds, but I'd want one that's at least fairly well-equipped. That one looks so cheap that it seems to have that base cloth that was actually a step down from vinyl!

[Deleted User]

OMG. That "78 Buick Electra almost blinded me with it's Red, red, and more red interior. Lmaoooooooo.

[Deleted User]

I gotta tell you, a few years ago I had an opportunity to buy the Mark VII for 2K, but I passed it up because of the amount of "minor" repairs it needed. I wish I would have bought it.

It has the Mustang GT 5.0 302 that puts out 225 HP and 300 lb-ft of torque...high performance for it's day, and even today.

It drove fantastic. Car and Driver really liked it, and so did I. If I can find a decent fixer-upper I am gonna hop on it.

Just my two cents. Check this out: http://thelincolnmarkviiclub.org/documents/specifications/1989/LSC/1989LSCSpecif- ications.pdf

andre1969

One of my co-workers had two Mark VII's, a black '87 and a green '92. He bought each one used...the '92 in 1994, and I forget when he bought the '87. He had it when I started working with him in '92 though.

They were both pretty good cars, and I think he got them both up into the 175-200,000 mile range. Unfortunately, he traded the '94 for a new 2000 Lincoln LS, when they first came out. It was so bad that he drives Acuras now.

If you get a Mark VII though, make sure you get one with the "right" engine. In the earlier years, only the LSC had the high-output engine, while the others used the mild ~140 hp 302 that went in Crown Vics and T-birds and such. Good enough engine, but it's not going to make for a performance car. But in later years, maybe they all started using the high-output version?

lemko

Some of those Mark VIIs came with an air suspension. I recall two girls who drove an old Mark VII at my second job. The car had a collapsed suspension and it looked like a low-rider. The girls definitely didn't have the money to fix the air suspension, so they just drove it that way.

fintail

I think I would have to become a pimp to drive that thing. What would have been wrong with a nice silvery blue and neutral interior? I guess I don't remember 1978 :shades:

fintail

My parents had the previous Bird, with a 460. I imagine it too didn't have huge hp, but enough torque to make normal driving effortless. I don't remember much about the car as it was around when I was a little kid. I do remember it was white on white, another pimpy 70s style.

For Andre's comment about the stripper car, I'd most want one of those angular birds if it was loaded - including T-Tops. That would be relatively cool, for what it is.

andre1969

Yeah, that particular red is a bit harsh on the eyes. My '76 Grand LeMans also has a red interior, but the color is toned down considerably, IMO...here's a pic the previous owner had taken for me.

It seems to have just a touch of orange and brown mixed in to tone it down some, while that Park Ave seems to be tending toward the pink/magenta just a bit. I wonder if part of the problem is the material...maybe vinyl just looks better in red than cloth/velour does?

I like the outside of the car...white with the burgundy landau top. Actually, if that interior was burgundy rather than red, I think it would look a LOT better.

As for that T-bird, I wouldn't need the best of the best, but I think I'd at least want the 351, power windows/locks, and an interior upgraded enough that it at least had carpeting on the lower door panels. And, in a tasteful color. But, a 400, the fully pimped velour, and t-tops (or a sunroof) would be icing on the cake!

gsemike

Here you go

andre1969

One of my relatives had one of those Heritage T-birds like that...same color even. I can't remember if hers had a sunroof, but I do remember it having velour, rather than leather. Hers was pristine, almost like a brand-new car. I remember around 1999/2000 or so she decided to sell it, and would have taken $3500. I was soooo tempted, but didn't have a place to store it, and it was too nice to let sit out. I think she ended up selling it to an old local guy for $5,000.

bhill2

As for that T-bird, I wouldn't need the best of the best, but I think I'd at least want the 351, power windows/locks, and an interior upgraded enough that it at least had carpeting on the lower door panels. And, in a tasteful color. But, a 400, the fully pimped velour, and t-tops (or a sunroof) would be icing on the cake!

Our 78 was a 'Town Landau'. It had the power windows/locks, velour upholstery, and carpeting on the lower door panels. It had the 400 engine. As closely as I can tell, it was the intermediate trim line between the base car and the limited-edition Diamond Jubilee edition. Actually it was a nice setup and probably not much more expensive than the base car, given the additional content. I know you could get a t-top on the T-bird that year, but I don't know if it could be ordered on all trim levels.

fintail

I think the outside of the Buick is OK, too. It wears white well.

I'd need the best of the best for the Bird. Prefer a 400, t-tops are required, leather, all power accessories, those turbine style wheels (or are they caps), and good colors. I'd actually drive something like that, I think the angularity isn't a bad style, for the kind of car it is. Even a Euro car fan like me likes a few malaise era American cars.

bhill2

those turbine style wheels (or are they caps)

They were the actual wheels. Ours had them.

berri

I recall those Ford's being expensive in the mid 70's. The lesser Ford LTD II Elite was more expensive than a loaded 76 Cutlass Supreme. I can only imagine what the T-Bird went for. Ironically, I'm thinking the Cutlass probably had better resale than the Elite despite the lower sticker price.

andre1969

I checked my old car book out of curiosity.
A 1976 Elite MSRP'ed for $4,879.

The '76 Cutlass coupe came in five different configurations...
S Colonade: $3,999
Cutlass Supreme: $4,291
Cutlass Supreme Brougham: $4,580
Cutlass Salon: $4,890

The Elite came standard with a 351 V-8, automatic transmission, and power steering and power brakes.

With the Cutlass, the Salon came standard with a 260 V-8, and all the others, just with a Chevy 250-6 (the 231 would replace that for '77). And most likely the automatic, power steering, and power brakes were optional.

Incidentally, the cheapest Torino in '76, the base hardtop, was $4,172. The Gran Torino Brougham coupe was actually $4,883, four bucks MORE than the Elite! Not surprisingly, the Elite swamped it...146,475 units to 3,183.

Again here, the 351 V-8 was standard in the Torino, as well as automatic, power steering, and power brakes.

I wonder how a Cutlass would compare by the time you threw in a 350, automatic, and power steering/brakes?

Oh, and I'm sure the Cutlass had MUCH better resale than the Elite. Compared to the '77 T-bird that replaced it, the Elite pretty much slipped the public's mind. And once used T-birds started hitting the market, I'm sure it killed whatever demand there was for Elites.

In contrast, the Cutlass was a hot item, essentially the Honda Accord of its day. The '76 was a very strong seller and the '77 sold even better...so well in fact that it caused a shortage of Olds 350's, which would cause legal issues a few years down the road. When the downsized '78 models came out, while they were popular, sales actually fell off a bit.

berri

I didn't even know you could get a 76 Cutlass with anything less than a 350. Most on the lot I saw came with a 350 and those that didn't had a bigger V8 (455? I don't recall exactly). I looked at loaded Cutass Supreme versus Elite (and some others) and the 350 4bbl I bought was significantly cheaper than an Elite. Olds was making pretty good deals and the move up from a Malibu Classic wasn't all that huge out the door. In the Chicago suburbs back then, the worst GM deals seemed to be on the LeMans for some reason I never understood (checked them at several dealers), while the Buick wasn't all that much different than the Olds making it essentially a style choice for me.

My impression test driving was that the Olds 350 was a nicer driver than the Elite 351, but I've always appreciated a land yacht ride on the Interstate, so that may have prejudiced my view. The Ford was very quiet and smooth though, and I liked it's interior seating.

fintail

The Elite. What a great name for that car.

Longtime friend of mine's family had a 76 Elite, bought new by his father the year before my friend was born. His dad was proud of this car, and apparently often referred to it as a "luxury car". It aged poorly, and became an embarrassment for my friend by the time he was in grade school. He referred to the color scheme as "diarrhea brown with a white vinyl stripe, and brown burlap interior". It was in the family until 1987, by then virtually in junkyard condition, and sold for something like $100. By that time it had become rusty (in WA state no less) and my friend's dad would patch the rust with duct tape painted over in the color of the car. I guess his dad had some kind of mojo with the car and had to be forced to sell it. Can't imagine cars aging so poorly today.

hpmctorque

The brand was mass market, but this model was indeed luxurious by the standards of the day. It featured upscale exterior trim, plush interior, plus a cushy and quiet ride. Forgetting for a moment that the Elite overlapped with the T-Bird, it could have been a smaller Lincoln. In fact, I think the Elite should have been a Lincoln because there wouldn't have been overlap with the Mark. The name Elite would also have been more appropriate for Lincoln than Ford. Your friend may not have been embarassed if it had been a Lincoln, other than for the rust.

The rust you described was inexcusable and puzzling, really. Did this car spend a lot of time near the water? It shouldn't have rusted at that rate as a Ford, but as a Lincoln it hopefully would have had better rust proofing.

fintail

It did live near the water after it was a few years old. Still, the fall apart rate seems high. My friend was embarrassed by the condition and color. Funny thing though, his dad replaced it with a brown Celebrity wagon. I think my friend hates brown cars.

To be fair, the similar era T-Bird my parents had was dead by around the same time (I think 1985 might have been the last time my family had it). I remember seeing it when it was off the road - physically it held up, but I guess something mechanically died, I am not sure what, but it wasn't worth fixing. I remember it broke and the car was replaced, but my dad kept it around for a short time, before giving it away.

The T-Bird/Mark IV overlap in the mid 70s is kind of puzzling to me. They seem to be virtually identical cars. Maybe the Elite should have been a Bird, as the 77-79 models were Torino based.

hpmctorque

Regarding rust, GM used anodized steel in the lower body panels on the downsized full-size '77 and mid-size '78 cars. This significantly improved corrosion protection. I don't know when Ford and others began or increased the use of anodized steel on vulnerable panels.

Of the German cars, speaking only from my observation it seemed that Audis had the best corrosion protection. Maybe they figured that buyers of Quattros were more likely to drive on salted roads than owners of RWD and FWD cars.

lemko

I rarely see a rusted-out 1977-era GM B and C body unless the car was extremely abused and neglected.

fintail

Old MB can rust out a lot. Fintails - rust magnets. 108-116-126 can really get rusty too. 123s usually aren't too bad. Most later cars are OK, although 210s have some troublesome random events.

IIRC, early 60s Fords were prolific rusters.

ab348

I remember GM promoting their use of "Zincrometal" on the downsized cars, which I believe was body metal that was galvanized on the inside surface. Back then it was tough to get paint to adhere and look correct on a galvanized surface, so they only galvanized one side.

The '77 B-bodies would eventually rust but not in the typical places. They could suffer from cowl, roof, and A-pillar rot due to rusting around the windshield channel. The top of the door window frames would trap water in the weatherstrip channel and cause rust there. And they could suffer from the typical frame and body mount rust in salty climates. The '78-up A-bodies were very prone to rear frame rail rust, so much so that GM sold a repair section for a time.

andre1969

The T-Bird/Mark IV overlap in the mid 70s is kind of puzzling to me. They seem to be virtually identical cars. Maybe the Elite should have been a Bird, as the 77-79 models were Torino based.

Actually the Elite was a test, to see if the public would go for a a Monte Carlo sized/priced T-bird. But instead of possibly tarnishing the T-bird name, Ford launched the Elite from '74-76. It was reasonably popular, selling 96K units for 1974, 123K for 1975, and 146K for 1976.

In contrast, the Monte Carlo sold about 312k units for 1974, 249K for 1975, and 353K for 1976.

So, GM pretty much owned the lower-end personal luxury coupe market, but that wasn't a bad showing for Ford. The '77-79 T-bird was a smash hit though, selling 318K, 352K, and 284K respectively.

The Monte in those years sold about 411k in '77, 358K in '78, and 317K for '79.

andre1969

I didn't even know you could get a 76 Cutlass with anything less than a 350. Most on the lot I saw came with a 350 and those that didn't had a bigger V8 (455? I don't recall exactly).

I have a feeling that trying to find a Cutlass Supreme with a 6-cyl is like trying to find a Lexus with cloth seats and no sunroof. Such a thing might technically exist if it was special-ordered, but chances are most of them were built with the 350, or Olds 455 (403 for '77)

The 260 V-8 might have been slightly more common than the 6-cyl. At least, Consumer Reports got ahold of one in '77, in a Cutlass Supreme sedan. It did 0-60 in about 21 seconds.

The last time I sat in an Elite was when I was a little kid, so that experience doesn't count. But I have been in a few LTD-II's and Torinos. From what I remember, the front seating position was low, although legroom was good. I've been in a few GM Colonades with nonpower seats, and they feel a bit tight to me. Thankfully my '76 Grand LeMans has a 6-way power seat that goes into some pretty obscene positions.

berri

When I was younger I kind of liked lower seats, as long as there was plenty of legroom. Must have been from riding in TR-3's as a teenager. So I didn't really recall that from the Elite - just nice looking seats. As an older guy I much prefer sitting higher off the floor.

Thankfully my '76 Grand LeMans has a 6-way power seat that goes into some pretty obscene positions.

Well, maybe you can sell it as sex furniture now. If I had known that, perhaps I should have ponied up the higher price they wanted for that LeMans. LOL

fintail

I guess the test worked.

300K+ sales for impractical large-ish 2 door cars - must have been a different world. Camry barely hits that anymore.

hpmctorque

Galvanized was the word I was looking for, not anodized. Your comments are absolutely correct.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes the Mark IV and the T-Brid were on nearly identical platforms.

My friend has a nice Mark IV---he put on slightly oversize radials and different wheels, redid the entire suspension and a later steering box and the car handles 10X better now.

andre1969

It probably made sense, at the time, for the T-bird and Mark IV to share the same platform. After all, in those days the T-bird was a much more upscale car, meant to compete with the likes of the Riviera, Toronado, and to a degree even the Eldorado.

I don't think the concept of more low-end personal luxury coupes really took off until the 1969 Grand Prix made its mark. By the 1970's it was all the rage, but GM pretty much had the market cornered with the Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, Regal, and Cutlass Supreme. Ford started testing the waters with the Elite and the Cougar XR-7 in '74, and then Chrysler with the Cordoba/Charger SE for 1975.

I guess those funky 1974 Matador Barcelona coupes would be considered AMC's attempt to break into this market.

srs_49

As an older guy I much prefer sitting higher off the floor

LOL! I don't think my knees would let me get into a car like that nowadays. And if they did, they wouldn't let me get back out!