Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

andre1969

I never liked the XR4/TI or whatever they called it, because it reminded me too much of my stepdad's '84 Tempo. But even I kinda liked those Scorpios.

explorerx4

I think the 2.9 is basically the same 'Cologne' engine as the V6 in the Bronco II.

fintail

There's an evolution of the aero Fords, they are all kind of related. First was the Euro Ford Sierra, which was the basis for Tempo styling (the Majorette toy Sierra was even sold in NA as a Tempo) - this was in 82. 83 saw the aero Bird, for NA only, of course, then Tempo for 84. 85 saw the Scorpio (like the Merkur), then the Taurus for 86. They share many small design details.

I still find the Merkur experiment to be a little hokey, marketing them somewhat as BMW competitors - when in Europe, they were just Fords - ones that could be optioned up nicely, but not prestige cars.

I had a radio controlled XR4Ti back in the day, I liked those too.

fintail

It's not the best car ever, but probably worth the money. Would be a crazy thing to buy even if one had a place to store it, but the memories are fun. I see a Scorpio now and then around here, always looking pretty ragged.

And about service - probably gotta find an experienced indy, or do it yourself. Doesn't sound fun. A car like that needs to remain as a sunny Sunday driver, not be pressed into regular service, where it would no doubt become a painful experience.

fintail

Maybe something in the water - it would explain that Bird. I guess it is a 75-76 with that steering wheel. Some pretty bad paint matching there.

Speaking of those big Birds, there's a nice one in my town, I see it now and then on nice days (maybe isellhondas has seen it too). It's a 72, dark green with a white top, I want to say it has a small hood scoop, vintage style wheels, and it sounds mean - maybe it's a 429. It looks to be in excellent condition, cool car for what it is.

steine13

"I do have seats"
http://lansing.craigslist.org/cto/3803141937.html

stickguy

3 triumphs for $1,400? sounds like a deal to me.

though this is not usually a big selling point: "But the raccoon's got inside and rearranged a few things."

explorerx4

Did I top that one?

fintail

Probably worth several hundred in scrap, maybe not a bad deal, although not a car I would touch with a 10 foot pole.

fintail

I think there's an extra digit - pick any of them.

jrosasmc

I came across these gems not too long ago:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1987-Bertone-X-1-9-Base-Coupe-2-Door-1-5L-/261219- 163030?ViewItem=&item=261219163030&forcev4exp=true

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1989-MERKUR-SCORPIO-WITH-FACTORY-5-SPEED-AND-66K-- MILES-/230988044268?ViewItem=&item=230988044268&forcev4exp=true

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1982-MERCEDES-BENZ-TURBODIESEL-CLASSIC-DIESEL-/18- 1150910671?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item2a2d6f88cf

Since the X1/9 is from the last year of production (1987), I assume all the bugs were worked out by that time, and that it won't rust into oblivion like earlier Fiats did. I've always thought of the Merkur as silly and eccentric.

Fintail - didn't you own a W123 300D at one point, or did you have another M-B I'm thinking of? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1982 was the first year for the turbodiesel engine, which is what this one has. My dentist is the original owner of an '82 300D that has 270k miles on it, and is currently sitting with a bad transmission.

bhill2

I believe 1982 was the first year for the turbodiesel engine

1982 was the first year for the turbodiesel in the W123. It had been available is the W116 since, I believe, 1979.

fintail

Oh yeah, I posted that Scorpio a few days ago - I kind of wanted it.

I've never owned a W123, but I wouldn't kick one out of my garage, especially a turbo model in mint condition and good colors. Seems all the nice survivors are brown or tan. I can deal with a brown W126...I'd like a W123 with the interior color you posted, but a light blue/silver blue exterior. I tried to find one years ago before I bought a W126, couldn't find one to meet my color and condition demands. Shame about the transmission failure, not a common fault - those cars are pretty rugged.

Mr_Shiftright

Those old turbo diesels are very rugged cars, but people really have to stop believing the "it'll go 500,000 miles no problem" myth. At 270,000, your dentist's car is going to need a lot of work, if it hasn't had it already. Even the car on eBay has had upholstery and an injection pump (not cheap) and still needs work to the sunroof and the cruise control (not cheap). And it only has 157,000 miles and has easily had its current market value duplicated in recent repairs.

Still, this one did look pretty nice. Most old turbo diesels are clapped out piles of junk by this time, or restored beauties with a premium price that doesn't justify their drawbacks IMO. (exception---a turbo diesel wagon makes up for in utility what it lacks in performance).

But really, when an old Benz diesel that's been restored approaches the price of a new Passat diesel wagon, common sense prevails.

fintail

Not really a project, but it's beautiful...don't know why I'd want a new car

berri

I was actually passed by something like that on the interstate yesterday, but it was a 500 series coupe with a unique looking C Pillar and rear window affect from behind. I'm guessing somewhere around that vintage, but honestly don't know for sure. Judging from the weathering of the paint, I think it had some years on it.

michaellno

The boss at the company I worked for in California had an SEL in that same color, except his was an '86, IIRC.

His personalized tags were "TH BEAZT". He traded in a pagoda-era SL to get it.

fintail

Sounds like you saw a SLC, which would be from the 70s



All kinds of disco era style, still low values

fintail

86 would be a first year 560SEL, the 91 would be a final year car.

Definitely a boss's car for the high rolling 80s, I don't know what compares now, relatively, as the market is more diverse.

hpmctorque

Comparable today might be a BMW 6, maybe? Isn't the new SL the spiritual successor to the 560 SEL, kinda/sorta? Would the Audi S5 be too aggressive and fall too far short on prestige?

I'm putting on my flame retardant suit before going on.

The closest entry from Detroit is the CTS Coupe, but I see that as being closer to the A5/S5, and, therefore, no cigar. Thinking outside the box, if it weren't for the prestige factor I'd say a properly optioned (more luxury, less muscle-car) 2013 Challenger wouldn't be that far off, since it's been described as a good cruiser. I recognize that the Challenger, any Challenger, can't be really be compared with the 560 SEL was heavy on prestige. But, from a product standpoint, the new RWD Mopars do incorporate a lot of MB engineering.

I can't think of one current Asian model that would be anywhere near qualifying as spiritual counterparts to the 560 SELs.

texases

By 'SEL' do you mean 'SLC'? The 560 SEL was the long wheel base 4 door.

As for a current high end luxury coupe, I'm stumped - aside from the SL and the 6, you'd have to move up to the Bentley/Jaguar/Aston Martin level. For under $100k, the S5 would fit, as would the CTS-V coupe.

hpmctorque

Yes, thanks.

fintail

I don't know if a coupe can be there - that would be the SEC, which MB still apes with the CL (soon to be S coupe again). 6er is a successor to the old sharks, and the Audi isn't in the same market niche.

I'm thinking of an modern top of the line powerful sedan that is head and shoulders above the competition, is both imposing and elegant (and maybe even a little muscular), and will age well. In 1986, neither the Japanese nor Audi had anything in the same universe, the 7er was smaller and all 6 cylinder, the Americans were still pretty old and baroque, and the British even more so. The 560SEL was in its own world. Cost about 65K then, which meant more when money was worth something.

The current big barges from all makers come close in some ways, but the current S might be the closest - 2013 model is quite old design wise (production started late 2005) but has aged well and continues to sell. I don't see any current American cars fitting the bill, mid lux and luxobarge are different.

berri

Thanks, but no not that one. I think it was a bit newer with a higher belt line. I looked on Google images in the 80's and 90's and didn't find that rear window look either. I wonder if MB maybe sold a hardtop cover for convertibles?

fintail

Was it a large or medium car? There are only a few cars it could be, so shouldn't be too tough.

berri

It appeared full sized. It was the rear window and C pillar that seemed unusual. The window was smaller and did not wrap around like most of them which makes me wonder of it was some kind of fiberglass convertible cover or something. It had 500 markings on the back, but I'm not sure if it was SLC or not.

fintail

Like this maybe?

berri

I like that car. But it was a newer vintage (but with weathered blue or black paint) with a higher profile trunk and rear end.

hpmctorque

That's the model I was thinking of, but I unintentionally mislabeled it.

I know someone that lives not far from me who's owned a black 560 for many years. I've chatted with him a few times, but not recently, because he also owned a E30, similar to the one I had. I've seem him driving his MB within the past month. He takes extremely good car of it. It's always spotless.

texases

This?

au1994

Still one of my favorite cars ever. One day I'll pick one of them up as a weekend/sunny day cruiser.

fintail

Either like the red one below, Or this?

I see neglected examples of those now and then too.

fintail

Prices don't seem to be going anywhere, so you can probably take your time.

fintail

He must be stuck in the 80s. A real nice low mileage 560SL can be had for 15K nowadays, can be worth it to the right person. Survival rate is so high that future values will be held down though.

berri

Different color and I can't make out the C pillar too well. But I think that may be it. Is it from the 90's maybe?

texases

Here's a profile (1990-ish SL500 with hard top).

Mr_Shiftright

The only future these days for V-8 SLs in terms of value is NO CHANGE and for the 500SLs, probably still further depreciation is coming.

I'm seeing pretty darn decent 450SLs for $5,000 and up right now.

The most valuable V-8 SLs are the very last 560SLs, and the very first chrome-bumper 350SLs.

Anything else is going nowhere in the "collectible" arena.

To drive a 450SL is to learn to dislike it. :P

Last of the 560s drive pretty nice, though. They're faster (much), handle better, get way better MPG---better in every single way.

texases

The later SL500 - plastic rear window, on a 'modern' luxury car? No thanks, the 560SL has more character...

Mr_Shiftright

560SL is the one to have, if that's your sort of thing.

I wouldn't let a friend buy a 560SEL unless it had a maintenance record the size of a Manhattan phone book and fewer miles than calories in a couple dozen Big Macs. (okay, with fries and a shake).

hpmctorque

The "stuck in the '80s" could be due to finances because, as far as I can tell, the 560SL serves as his daily driver as well as his passion. His wife drives a early '00s 5er, which replaced a early '90s 5er. I'm not judging, but he's the type that, depending on the day, will avoid eye contact, or make eye contact without speaking, but reply if spoken to.

fintail

I didn't mean stuck in the 80s as a bad way - 80s were a high point for MB and many are fans of the products of that era.

au1994

Thats what I am seeing as well so I'll take my time and buy the right one, not one with needs. Just bought a new house that knowingly had a few needs so thats my focus for now!

hpmctorque

Yeah, I took it in the manner you intended. The 560SL is an example of a tasteful, timeless design that one can remain proud to own. Newer is different, but not necessarily better. I think that people on Edmunds appreciate this, and think about it more, than the majority for whom cars are primarily transportation appliances. Passion for cars, or lack of it, is just a personal characteristic, or preference.

Mr_Shiftright

It's interesting to note that the LAST year of the 560SL, essentially an 18 year-old design, was still able to outclass and outperform the brand new Cadillac Allante without even breathing hard.

hpmctorque

I don't doubt you. The newer Northstar equipped Allante seemed to fare reasonably well when price is factored in. From Wikipedia - not a great source - but here it is...

"A 1992 comparison test of the Northstar-powered Allanté by Car and Driver placed it above the Jaguar XJS V12 convertible and the Mercedes-Benz 300SL in North America. Although the Cadillac roadster got big points for its new engine, Allanté was criticized for its handling, which was an inherent result of the front wheel drive layout. Ultimately, it was the rapid rise in the retail price of its competitors due to changes in exchange rates that won the test for Cadillac. At that time, the Allanté's price seemed a bargain compared with the $71,888 Jaguar and $90,335 Mercedes-Benz."

texases

"$90,335 Mercedes-Benz"

I was SURE that was a misprint, then I looked it up...WOW. Go forward 16 years, to 2008, and the base price on an SL550 was only $95,300, LESS than the base price on the '92 500SL ($97,500).

What's up with that?

fintail

Funny. V8 Caddy vs V12 Jag vs I6 MB. I think the 300SL was actually around 70K as well - 500SL would have been closer to 90.

Speaking of old cars from earlier, I have a lot more respect and give more notice to an immaculate 20-25 year old car than a new one. And a dirty neglected abused late model car is worst of all.

fintail

S-class prices fared similar. 1992 500SEL based around 87K, IIRC. Base price on a 2012 S550 was about 95K. Not much movement over 20 years.

Mr_Shiftright

those $$$ are why Lexus beat the stuffing out of Mercedes with the LS400.

I suspect the Car and Driver comparo was "price dependent". Having driven an Allante, I can see that it might compare favorably to the Jaguar but between the handling and the quality control issues, I never regarded it as a worthy competitor to the SLs.

Apparently lots of people found that out the hard way.

Mr_Shiftright

...when he drives THIS into town?

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/cto/3862942679.html