Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

It's all the unforeseen and all the 'while we're in there' and all the "it costs HOW much for that part?" that kills you.

e.g. "We stripped off the paint and found some 4" thick Bondo in the entire rear quarter hiding some bad collision repair"

e.g. " Do you want us to just try and glue on a new dash cover or would you like us to do it the right way by removing the windshield (which of course breaks).

e.g. " I've got your engine apart but the head is cracked and the block has already been bored to maximum. What would you like to do?"

e.g. "The electrical wiring is just falling apart in my hands. We need a new harness"

:P

fintail

At some shops, for sure. I bet a full on restoration at MB Classic Center would be a lot more.

fintail

Ugh,the dash pad - my car needs one, and I am sure replacement would easily cost more than a grand, very labor intensive. But if the wood is going to be out for refinishing anyway, might as well do it.

That also gets me thinking, if restoring a car like mine, money might be used more wisely to kind of resto-mod it, and put in the engine and transmission from a 300E - much more power, but simple enough even with the wiring that it shouldn't be a huge deal. However, I do like the clattery MFI unit in my car.

texases

I'm more referring to Shifty's comment. There are so many surprises in a restoration, and 90% of them are bad. I can't estimate much of anything +/- 10%, and that's a big part of my job. People in general are much more certain than they should be.

Of course, you could say 'I'll put $x into it, not a penny more'. but then we'd see you in something like this:

Mr_Shiftright

If I were in your shoes, and you had the money, I would definitely resto-mod it.

Look at the logic:

1. As nice a car as it is, it is a 4-door tailfin mercedes, so the appreciation value will never equal the cost of restoration. Very few 4-door cars have attained any kind of value worth noticing.

2. as nice a car as it is, it is not bountifully equipped for today's world. It will always be fussy, it will always plod along at its stately pace. How about AC? How about a really nice sound system? How about an automatic overdrive?

So the idea of a resto-mod makes sense. Not only will it cost no more than an authentic restoration but you'll end up with a) a better car for the modern world and b) probably a car worth more.

the challenge is to mod the car tastefully. Using MB components is tempting but very expensive.

fintail

I think some cars are easier to guesstimate than others. A fintail is not a terribly complicated car, with known costs and known problem areas, and I know my car well. I bet for acceptable quality work, my guesses aren't too far off.

Funny, when the car goes in for its yearly doctor visit, I usually give a budget "not to exceed" - can always find something to get close to the limit.

fintail

I'd guess a M103 swap with an early 90s era 5 speed auto would cost no more than powertrain work on the original unit. And the wiring on the old/modern cars is simple enough where it shouldn't be impossible. I think an I6 would be the way to go, not a V8, and not a heavy diesel block. I've never thought of appreciation value - it's a sentimental and enjoyment thing for me, I've had the car half my life, and I enjoy driving it. AC isn't worth the expense where I live, the radio works just fine, but a more powerful engine could be fun.

I don't really plan to restore it anyway. In the next couple years it will need a valve job or adjustment, the cold start system is finally starting to wear out, and some wear and tear items can always be replaced. I'll just keep it going that way.

fintail

This thing is bringing surprising bids - and it will be a project, as they tend to break now and then.

Still, if you want the best, you can't make a heap nice for this money. These are collectible in Europe, too.

texases

I'm sorry, I just can't see putting that kind of money in a 5000. Pretty sure it's just fwd. Nice for the time, but not that special, not where I'd put 7,000+$ now.

fintail

Yeah, IIRC, Quattro never even existed on the C2 5000 - the top spec model being the "turbo". It's a curiosity, and I am sure these have reliability issues.

Mr_Shiftright

Well knock me over with a blown transaxle! I would have guessed $4000 maximum on this car. Did they think it was the turbo wagon? May god have mercy on his soul, whomever he may be.

fintail

Was that their issue, blown transaxle? I remember talking with someone about these, years ago, and they mentioned weak transmission seals or something random like that.

I wonder who is bidding - a fanboy with money to spare, or someone in Europe.

Mr_Shiftright

My recollection on the Audi 5000, aside from the usual reliability gremlins, was that the transmission oil would somehow leak out and destroy the assembly. There were numerous recalls throughout the car's production run on this, and other, issues.

berri

That Audi 5000 was a nice car, BUT... People blame 60 Minutes for it's demise. It hurt the brand, but quality and reliability is what really killed it to my way of thinking. Audi has done a tremendous job recovering from that though.

bhill2

People blame 60 Minutes for it's demise. It hurt the brand, but quality and reliability is what really killed it to my way of thinking.

I agree, but I still would have awarded Auto Union a majority stake in CBS for that sensationalistic pretense of an 'investigation'.

fintail

Styling and design can win hearts, along with good marketing - and the cars can't be less reliable than 25-30 years ago.

steine13

A friend of mine owned two (2) 1987 versions of this car. One quattro stick (non-turbo) and one auto FWD.

EVERY Monday, there were stories (note plural) about what happened with the car(s) since Friday. Being German, everything that went wrong was my fault, of course. Hilarious.

Nice-looking survivor. Anything over $2k is charity and/or insanity.

Cheers -Mathias

fintail

No doubt this is a project for someone:

W220 S500 (the much maligned overly complex early 00s model) hits 300K miles:

fintail

Craigslist fun:

Nice looking, shame about the price

Still for sale, nobody wants 15 mpg and disco era style

One for Andre or Lemko maybe

Nice fake convertible

I wouldn't kick it out of my driveway

Super Power

Cadillac style

"this is a really big car"

Fix it again

Wrong wheels

Final old Z

Not many around

Fuselage

Maybe it pushes easy

stickguy

Andre should be all over the Electra. I know he likes those, and I think that is his color on one!

I like that little Fiat. Never saw one of those. Kind of neat.

and I love the Volvo 122 (I do have a thing about Volvos). I agree that the wheels are wrong, but swapping them out for a set of imitation minilites would work.

andre1969

I do like that Electra, although I'd like it more if it was a nice shade of green or blue. I'd be curious to know what engine it has. A 350 was standard, but an Olds 403 was optional, and in a top-line car like a Park Avenue, probably more likely.

I kinda like those Volvo 122's as well. They make me think a bit of a 2/3 scale 1955 Chrysler.

fintail

Monday morning I took the old beast in for its yearly service and for a checkup. It still runs too warm after ~20 mins or so at highway speeds (but runs fine in town, and thermostat was replaced last year), so that was #1 on the list of needs. The shop sent the radiator out to be refurbished - and it is still out, my weekend of cleaning and playing with the car is foiled. I hope this fixes it - I think if it doesn't, the car has some weird head gasket issue, and that will cost. I can't think of any other potential failure that would create hot running at high speeds.

stickguy

simple answer. Don't drive it on the highway that far.

the rad is a good bet. In my youth, I had a '75 Corolla that ran hot on the highway (especially if I got stuck in traffic). ended up having the radiator recored (I think it was a new one put in, not just a clean out) and after that it stayed nice and cool.

fintail

Ha, that's not bad, but I would like to take it out at least a few times a year, and the local MBCA gathering involves a little highway drive.

I am hoping it is a radiator, not terribly expensive. I had it redone in 1997, but who knows what has happened since, and it is an old piece of metal. It runs at normal temps in town and doesn't consume coolant, so I like to think the head is OK. If not, there goes a couple grand at least.

lemko

andre1969, you need to check out the latest edition of "Collectible Automobile." It has a feature on the 1978-79 Dodge Magnum.

fintail

2 weeks ago I dropped off the fintail at the shop. It's still there - I get what I ask for when I say "take your time, I don't need it soon". They claim the re-cored radiator has cured the hot high speed running - we will see, I am cautiously optimistic. That glitch cost something like $450. I asked them to check the wheel bearings, as recently I am getting a slight rumbling noise - guess what, it needs them. Another $400+. Plus the service and tax and a couple small things, I'll be in for over a grand. Yay!

On a positive note, the 13+ year old brakes are apparently still at 50%, so that's one expense I can dodge for awhile.

hpmctorque

If ~$1,100 is all you spend for repairs for this calendar year, that's within the reasonable range for a hobby car. It may not even be out of line on a per mile basis compared with a depreciating newer car.

fintail

Tires and alignment/suspension repair were another ~$1400 or something, it's been a more expensive year than normal, especially for something that is lucky to pass 1000 miles a year. The past few years it has only consumed a few hundred a year in maintenance, so I guess things needed to average out.

Mr_Shiftright

I call it "I'm doing a rolling restoration!"

fintail

I'm so slow about it and have had it for so long, it's like painting the Golden Gate Bridge. By the time I get around to fixing a problem, a previously fixed problem has un-restored itself again.

I talked to the tech who drove it after the radiator fix, he said it drove really well for something so old - so hopefully that's a good sign of long term stability.

andre1969

The past few years it has only consumed a few hundred a year in maintenance, so I guess things needed to average out.

Yeah, it tends to work out that way. I had to throw something ridiculous, like $2300, into the 5th Ave back in 2011. That included a radiator, a lot of brake work, power steering pump, and I forget what else now. One reason it was so expensive was that apparently, they don't make cheap, aftermarket radiators anymore for the R-body, so they had to put an expensive one in. I've actually run into that problem before with that car. Even though it's based on the old B-body (Cordoba/Magnum, Coronet/Charger/Satellite/"small" Fury), they did change around enough things that stuff you'd think might be a direct swap, isn't.

For instance, it seems to me that if you were going to come up with a new car as cheaply as possible, you'd try to re-use as many existing things as possible that the customer won't notice, like the gas tank, radiator, etc. But, nope.

I think I had to put around $300 into the 5th Ave last year, because of a fuel leak. And now, it has some other issue. I drove it into DC last Thursday nite, and on the way home, it got a weird vibration at speeds below about 50 mph. Drove it to work today, and it felt even worse. Even coming to a stop at a traffic light, once it got really slow, it felt like a wheel was about to fall off! So I pulled over and checked them all, and everything's on nice and tight. I don't remember hitting anything in those crater-filled minefields they call streets in DC, so I don't think I bent an axle or rim or anything, but I guess it's possible.

Anyway, it's in the back of the garage now, as I won't need it for awhile. I figure I'll take it to the mechanic in the fall and let him mess with it. The LeMans is going to a show out near Allentown PA this weekend, and that pretty much wraps up car show season for me this year...at least far-away events that I put a car in. There's still Fall Carlisle and Hershey, but for those I just go and look, rather than enter a car.

I had to throw a bunch of money at the LeMans back in 2009...forget how much now. Then almost nothing since, although it needed a new starter and some wiring work late last year. Ditto my other NY'er, the blue base model. Threw a bunch of money at it in 2009, almost nothing since then, although that was partly my fault for letting it sit. In May I had to put a new starter in it, and some wiring work too.

fintail

$2300 at once would smart - but I guess I am in that same boat. To be fair, I can't hold consumables like tires against the car, and nobody forced me to get fancy wide whites. At least the old car is simple for a MB - doesn't scare off my indy mechanic who usually works on much newer cars. I can't remember the last time it ate a grand at once, maybe not since 1997 when a piston ring broke - that wasn't pretty. Since then, some years not even $100, some years a few hundred - I guess that's getting off cheap.

There's always a list for the future, too. I'd like to have the steering wheel refinished, over time the cold start system (fuel injection) is wearing out and will need rebuilding, I think it might need springs eventually - sometimes it doesn't seem to sit completely level from side to side, and it has a couple electrical system quirks. And it will eventually will need some valve work, but my mechanic says it's not worth bothering with now - he says you can't adjust it out of its current oil consumption, but it doesn't burn enough (a quart every 700 miles or so) to merit such a big job.

explorerx4

My old Mustang had to get towed home last summer.
A bit over a month ago I had it towed to a local garage and asked them to get it running.
New MAF and tune up parts didn't do the trick.
Turns out it is the ECU. They are hard to find and the 1 used one they found was damaged.
Now the original has been sent out to be refurbished.
It should be back in about a week. Keeping my fingers crossed.

tjc78

Not uncommon, the capacitors get puffy and eventually fail. It happens a lot on the older box Panthers as well. Hopefully, the rebuild fixes the problem.

fintail

Got the fintail back - 16 days in the shop. Came out to a bit less than $100/day, so cheaper than a hospital stay anyway :shades:

Wheel bearings were something like $75 for parts and over 3x that for labor. I love things like that. I notice the radiator looks nice and new, but I only drove it for about a mile back to its garage - road test coming Sunday after next when I drive it to the MBCA gathering.

explorerx4

Thanks, that's some good info. Hopefully I'll be able to see what was done to the ECU.

fintail

Drove the old car with its rebuilt radiator (I can smell the newness) last night and today. Seems fine, but didn't go on the highway yet.
The car was in a bad mood last night - it had spent a couple weeks at the shop, mostly outside where it got grimy, and I think it was unhappy. Hard to start, which is unusual for the car, eventually sputtered to life, was lurchy when accelerating hard. I hosed it down at a car wash, then took it home and detailed it inside and out. This morning, it fired right up as usual.

Only issue is the turn signals are being weird again. And when cleaning it, I apparently broke a couple of the clips that hold the horizontal fin chrome strip on - I hope these can be replaced, I repaired the one complete broken clip the best I could, but it is a sketchy repair. Off to see the dealer tomorrow - they just might be able to order it.

Radiator recore cost $450 + labor, I don't know if that is good or not. It looks nice anyway.

fintail

MB dealer can give me a part number, but doesn't stock the part. I assume the exact clip would have last been used on a W111 230S, which ceased production in 1967. The hunt begins. I asked if the part was replaced by another part which serves the same function, the guy at the dealer looked at me like I was speaking gibberish. But, I think the clip is specific to the chrome piece.

Funny thing, out in the car in a parking lot last night, a young guy (probably about the same age as I was when I bought the car) says "that's a sick car" or something - I wanted to say "yeah I know, it has some issues, but still runs fine", reminded me of something years ago, when a kid on the bike said "tight wheels", to which I wanted to say "I hope they are, I don't want them to fall off" :shades:

Mr_Shiftright

Saw a 1987 Porsche 930 with a Porsche 962 race engine installed. The car was "de-tuned" to 600 HP on the dyno. The concept was to create a "sleeper" that looked completely and utterly stock from the outside but that would go 60-120 so fast that the speedometer needle and tachometer needle run up at about the same speed!

The concept was to build the motor up to 3.5L instead of 3.0, to give more torque and be able to run lower boost pressures.

Only clue to something going on? Size 315 tires perhaps.

DOWNSIDE: The engine is worth more than the entire car.

fintail

After too much searching, I found my clips. At about $10 apiece, actually not as bad as I had imagined - as shipment was not slated until a week from order date, I suspect they are being sourced from Europe. Crazy. I was going to visit a body shop and see if they could recommend a substitute, but I got lucky.

xwesx

Always nice when that happens (get lucky)!

$10 each is pretty steep, but amortize that over fifty years and I suppose it is tolerably cheap.... !

explorerx4

The shop owner went out of town, so he told me I could pick it up, drive it for the next few days to make sure everything is ok and stop back next week to settle the bill.
So far everything is good other than it needs a good cleaning and the plug wires I bought are longer and thicker than the OEM. Same brand, but higher performance version. I might buy a new OEM set and replace them.

fintail

I was going to start hounding MB junkyards if I couldn't get the part. And that's assuming the part is delivered. No doubt the original clips just wore out. They seem strong on the other fin anyway.

Speaking of MB...I don't like the price, but I like the car

Mr_Shiftright

You did read the notation "BINDER full of records" didn't you?

fintail

Expected for a 30 year old grey market car. My fintail has a binder full of records, too. My old W126 only had a file folder.

It's not a 95 Civic...it will have needs.

Mr_Shiftright

Well true, but "needs" is one thing, and repairs totaling the value of the car x3 is yet another. The repair bills on a Euro AMG car can be staggering. I wouldn't pay $5000 bucks for that thing.

tjc78

For the sky.... A bit over improved, but probably the nicest of its kind.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Lincoln-Town-Car-1985-Cartier-Designer-Series-Moo- nroof-one-owner-/171095895798?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item27d61c2ef6

explorerx4

I think that '2' after the '$' was a fat finger mistake.

fintail

It's just an AMG trim package, nothing mechanical. This isn't one of the 6.0 monsters, it is just a standard 500SEL in fancy clothes.

If I found one that nice for 5K, I would buy it this second, seriously.

fintail

Wow, hard not to laugh a little. It's amazingly nice, looks virtually new - but whenever anyone is asking appraisal price for such a car, you know they are dreaming. The scarily detailed info is telling too - this guy would be very hard to deal with.

Reminds me of a 1980 Olds 98 that was on ebay many times, a very nice black on red car from a guy in Alberta. His ad had a similar tone, but he would set a reserve, claiming it reflected a fair return on his "investment" or some such nonsense.