Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

omarman

After 20-25 years since they originally came to market it seems like we are the future for such cars. If you had to make space and commitment to a "90s supercar collection" what would it be? I'd include 80s "collectibles" too because I always liked the early M3. Love to have an E30 M3 but are they really going for this kind of money now? If so, well, that would limit my collection (and commitment) to maybe a clean original shark nose 635CSi/M6.

fintail

E30 M3s are a real cult car - that money is high, but all it takes is someone who wants that exact thing.

90s supercars - Diablo, a few Ferraris, McLaren F1, etc. Then the special interest cars - Supra, RX7, period M and AMG cars, etc.

This looks like a nice 90s car

boomchek

If I was collecting more mainstream but uncommon 90s cars, my ideal garage would have the following:

Acura Integra Type R

mid 90s Mazda RX7

mid 90s Toyota Supra Twin Turbo

BMW 8 series (stick preferably)

First gen M3

Honda S2000

Mercedes Benz 500E

MK1 and MK2 GTI

All original and unmolested of course.

xwesx

@boomchek said:
All original and unmolested of course.

I think you mean your dream garage rather than your ideal garage.

boomchek

I guess you could call it dream garage although all of these can probably be had for about $200k to $300k in total depending on condition.

fintail

The key would be finding really untouched examples. It can be done, but it might require work and a willingness to spend.

boomchek

Yeah, probably 95% of the Japanese "supercars" out there for sale are heavily or poorly modded. Give it a few years and if they ever reach collector car status like the muscle cars did a few years ago, they'll be clones of them too. I already saw a few Integra Type R clones for sale over the past few years.

xwesx

Yeah, I was referring to the "original and unmolested" remark when stating that your goal is approaching unobtanium status.

But, those cars have a big enough following that there are surely those that avoided the "used car death sentence."

Mr_Shiftright

That's just an asking price, so they aren't going for anything like that. But if you find a really clean low mileage one that hasn't been beat to crap (not easy) you can certainly ask a reasonable premium over "book". Those early M3s are not very durable cars, with engines that don't go the distance, so finding a real keeper might stimulate lots of interest. Maybe $30K for a real gem....most clean running drivers $20K or under.

@omarman said:
After 20-25 years since they originally came to market it seems like we are the future for such cars. If you had to make space and commitment to a "90s supercar collection" what would it be? I'd include 80s "collectibles" too because I always liked the early M3. Love to have an E30 M3 but are they really going for this kind of money now? If so, well, that would limit my collection (and commitment) to maybe a clean original shark nose 635CSi/M6.

Mr_Shiftright

WELCOME TO REALITY:

So I found this 2003 Porsche Boxster, nice clean car, with a blown engine, low miles, and I thought maybe I could buy it and flip it to a Porsche shop. Got the same basic response from three Porsche specialty shops----JUNK IT!

So there it is---when the engine is worth more than the car----kinda sad, really.

Actual value? About $1000 is the consensus opinion.

stickguy

well, it is a mid engine. So just need to find a nice low model one that did a header into a wall, get a hoist and a case of beer, and book a nice weekend in the driveway.

boomchek

@MrShift@Edmunds said:
WELCOME TO REALITY:

So I found this 2003 Porsche Boxster, nice clean car, with a blown engine, low miles, and I thought maybe I could buy it and flip it to a Porsche shop. Got the same basic response from three Porsche specialty shops----JUNK IT!

So there it is---when the engine is worth more than the car----kinda sad, really.

Actual value? About $1000 is the consensus opinion.

What was the asking price of the Boxster?

Mr_Shiftright

They were taking offers on it. As for R&R in your driveway, well...okay, if you were a Porsche technician with all the special tools you'd need, that's 17 hours labor. Or you could have that engine rebuilt for $18,000.

Best thing to do with a car like that is use it as a donor for a 911 3.8L engine replacement--of course, that would cost you so much money that you'd be better off just buying something nice.

Besides, if you plug in a used Boxster S engine, there's nothing to say that this one wouldn't also self-destruct. They have a tendency to do that.

@boomchek said:
What was the asking price of the Boxster?

boomchek

Yeah I've seen the earlier Boxsters come in on trade as low as $4k to $6k so $1k sounds about right as it's more of a parts car junker as you said.

Kind of like almost every Porsche 914 I've seen in the 90s. Beat up or tucked away in people's yards.

Mr_Shiftright

It's too bad, they are great handling cars and fun to drive, but this is the way of the modern world---cars are not going to be saved anymore. You know things are bad when even the mechanics who specialize in the car don't want it.

On the other hand, I found a 1980 911 with a blown engine and I had that car sold in a few hours and got a finder's fee. While both the 911 and the Boxster engines cost about the same to rebuild, the old 911 is on an upward spiral but the Boxster is on a downward spiral.

boomchek

Probably because there are so many more Boxsters out there, and many of the 2nd or 3rd owner examples have been owned by people who can't afford to, or don't want to maintain them. Same thing with older Cayennes. Even the nicest examples have exhorbitant maintenance costs, and even though we see them for sale for around $10k-$20k now, most people that want them think it costs the same as maintaining a $10k Honda or Toyota.

isellhondas

A lot of people consider 914's and Boxsters to be wannabee Porsches or glorified Volkswagens.

Awhile back I had a nice 912 but the snooty Porsche shops around here wouldn't work on it. It was beneath them.

Mr_Shiftright

Really? Did you mention that the 912 has a Porsche 356 engine and transmission?

fintail

Before I was born, my mother had a Beetle with a 912 engine installed by my dad.

andre1969

Well, I think the Good Lord, or fate, or something was looking out for me today. Weather has been nice, so I figured I'd start exercising the old cars. I came home on my lunch break, and started up my '76 LeMans and drove it to work and back. I planned on taking my '79 5th Ave to work tomorrow. So, I went out the the garage this evening, to make sure it would start. It fired up after about 2 or 3 tries (been sitting about 3 weeks, so I guess that's not too bad). But then I realized hey, this thing is sitting funny! Well, sure enough, the back tire on the driver's side was flat.

I put an air pump on it to see if it would at least pump back up, because it was in a tight spot for changing a tire. It did pump up, but when I turned the pump off, I heard a hissing sound, so I knew it had a fast leak. So, I moved it forward to a better spot, jacked it up, and changed the tire. When I pulled the old tire off though, I nearly freaked. This is what I saw...

How this wasn't a blowout, and how it managed to hold any air at all is above and beyond my level of comprehension! Near as I can figure, this actually happened last year. I drove the car into DC back in July, and hit some pretty rough patches of road, and that probably did it. I remember driving it to work about a week later, but something didn't feel right...wobbly somehow. I got out and checked all the tires to make sure the lug nuts were on tight. Drove the car back home at lunch time, and figured I'd just let the mechanic look it when I had time. And then, it sat. And sat. I drove it out of the garage 3 weeks ago, when I did some spring cleaning, and took that pic with the two New Yorkers, LeMans, and Catalina all lined up. And then put it back that night.

Anyway, I guess it's a bit of a miracle that it didn't blow out when I hit whatever it was I hit in DC. Or on the way to work that one day. Or, that it mercifully went flat in the garage, rather than wait until tomorrow morning to blow out on the way to work!

Anyway, here's the poor old beast now, with the spare tire on...

Maybe this is Mother Nature's way of telling me to get off my butt, get some new tires mounted on those aluminum Mirada rims I bought a few years back, and put 'em on the car...

Oh, and on the subject of tires, does anybody know a good source these days, to find whitewalls? I want to find a 225/70/R15. I'm thinking about just cheaping out and going with blackwalls, if the whitewalls are too expensive. But, whitewalls would dress up the car SOOO nicely.

hpmctorque

You could buy blackwalls and then add those whitewall rings, if they still sell those. For those who don't know, the purpose of those rings was to give blackwalls a whitewalls appearance. I'll admit that I haven't seen them in years, probably because newer cars don't sport whitewalls.

The main downside of those rings is that they tended to disintegrate at high speeds, but I don't think you drive your New Yorker at autobahn speeds anyway. Or do you?

andre1969

Well, if I get on the highway, such as taking Route 50 into DC, or driving up for the shows in Carlisle, I'll sometimes roll along at 70-75. I've pegged the speedometer in the past...admittedly, not that hard to do with an 85 mph speedo! However, I don't think I'm going to do much driving at all in it, until I get new tires. I have no idea how old the spare is, and if that one Firehawk was ready to let go like that, chances are the other one could, as well. The whitewall tires on the front are getting up there in age, too. I think I got them in late 2001!

stever

Coker Tire?

andre1969

I thought about Coker Tire, but the last time I looked, the size I wanted, a 225/70/R15 was over $200 per tire! However, I just looked again, and they have some off-brand I've never heard of called "Maxxis" that's only $120 per tire. BTW, the other tire that I remembered, is a BF Goodrich for $272 per tire! That would be $1088, plus shipping and installation, to put tires on a car I only paid $900 for in the first place!

Here's the link for the Maxxis tire: http://www.cokertire.com/maxxis-225-70r15.html

stever

I know the feeling - the tires on my van are worth more than the rest of the car.

Seeing your "blow-out", I'm glad I have them. The van would make a great project car other than not having the support of the rest of the household. Tune-up the front suspension, bang out a few dents, replace a marker light, fix a flopping fender liner, detail it and it'd be good to go for another 100k.

hpmctorque

@Stever@Edmunds said:
I know the feeling - the tires on my van are worth more than the rest of the car.

Seeing your "blow-out", I'm glad I have them. The van would make a great project car other than not having the support of the rest of the household. Tune-up the front suspension, bang out a few dents, replace a marker light, fix a flopping fender liner, detail it and it'd be good to go for another 100k.

What about keeping the van as a spare, as a compromise, since it's close to fully depreciated? Then do the repairs you mentioned at your convenience, and use the old van for some shorter trips.

stever

That would work good, but we plan to relocate to NM later this summer, and it'd be nice to only have to take one car out (one that my wife still trusts that is). It was a pain shuttling two of them to MI from ID ~3 years ago even though it was handy having a summer car and a winter car.

Mr_Shiftright

Maxxis is made by the Cheng-Shin Rubber Co, out of Taiwan. Huge company, sells all over the world, auto, ATV, commercial , motorycle, truck, etc.

@andre1969 said:
I thought about Coker Tire, but the last time I looked, the size I wanted, a 225/70/R15 was over $200 per tire! However, I just looked again, and they have some off-brand I've never heard of called "Maxxis" that's only $120 per tire. BTW, the other tire that I remembered, is a BF Goodrich for $272 per tire! That would be $1088, plus shipping and installation, to put tires on a car I only paid $900 for in the first place!

Here's the link for the Maxxis tire: http://www.cokertire.com/maxxis-225-70r15.html

texases

Andre - with your stable of cars, have you checked the ages on all the tires? Was that one old? Or just a victim of road abuse?

andre1969

I gotta confess...that tire was pretty old. A little over 15 years! I'd guess it had about 45,000 or so miles on it. It was originally on my '89 Gran Fury copcar.

So, Shifty, I guess Maxxis is a decent company, then, and not some fly-by-night thing?

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, it's a big company, something like 30,000 employees.

fintail

Whitewalls with wheels (yes, you need to dress that thing up with the Mirada wheels, it was a sign) are period correct, but I don't think lacking whitewalls would be offensive, as most cars with wheels lack whitewalls.

I was able to get something like 13-14 years out of the tires on the fintail - but I drove it enough to the point where they were more worn out than falling apart. Before those tires, it would chew through front tires thanks to worn kingpins - I could get 5K or so miles before steel belts would show through.

andre1969

FWIW, here's a 5th Ave with those Mirada wheels...

One of my co-workers took that pic a few years ago on his way in to work.

qbrozen

Hit $8223 last time and didn't meet reserve, wonder if he lowered it.

Remind me not to let my 4-year-old paint my truck.

Didn't someone just mention an 635 for their dream garage?

qbrozen

Pictures ain't great but could be a nice one.

qbrozen

Friend pointed this one out to me.

stickguy

I like the Porsche. I could live with that. The Esprit, that scares me!

omarman

@qbrozen said:
Didn't someone just mention an 635 for their dream garage?

>

I like the color and the 5 speed is okay for an 80's "collectible" which wouldn't be slugging around in metro Columbus traffic much. But autocheck reports 90K miles on the odo in 2004 and nothing else noted until 2 collisions in 2008. Current miles are just under 102K. If it checks out okay, I wonder what it will bring?

texases

Not a fan of those low-profile tire/wheels on the 635 - think it came that way?

isellhondas

Saw a 64 or 65 Lincoln Convertible parked yesterday with it's top down.

At first glance, it looked pretty good until I looked closer. It looked like someone had taken it to Maaco or Earl Scheib for it's paint job.

Skimping on a paint job isn't good especially on a black car!

Oh, and someone had the low class to put huge wide whitewalls on it. I'm sure the owner liked that look!

ab348

@andre1969 said:
I thought about Coker Tire, but the last time I looked, the size I wanted, a 225/70/R15 was over $200 per tire! However, I just looked again, and they have some off-brand I've never heard of called "Maxxis" that's only $120 per tire. BTW, the other tire that I remembered, is a BF Goodrich for $272 per tire! That would be $1088, plus shipping and installation, to put tires on a car I only paid $900 for in the first place!

How about these?

http://www.amazon.com/Hankook-Optimo-H724-All-Season-Tire/dp/B004QL6ASU/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1397250113&sr=1-1&keywords=hankook+225/70R15

There are a number of Hankook tires there around that size (215/75, etc) that have a white sidewall, for around $100 each.

Mr_Shiftright

Originally that BMW probably came with metric tires, which are now tres expensivo. Much better to just swap out the wheels and put a "normal" radial on there. 635s get no respect, and really bomb at auction. Never quite understood that--it's not that abundant a car---but also not 'rare' either. If you restored one, you'd be lucky to get $12,000 for it.

@texases said:
Not a fan of those low-profile tire/wheels on the 635 - think it came that way?

omarman

Long time ago Hemmings did a nice piece about the shark nose 6 series and pointed out that the first problem is finding one that hasn't been neglected. Another point made was all about those stock metric tires/wheels:

U.S. cars came with BMW 165 TR 390 light-alloy wheels and TRX 220/55VR 390 Michelins. If you're lucky, those are odd-sounding numbers to you. The metric TRXs are actually good tires and they are reproduced, but at $417 apiece from Coker Tire, we think $1,668 is a lot for four tires.

I just checked the current price from Coker for that tire which is in stock at $429 each!

Mr_Shiftright

I bought a 735 with metric tires but it was really simple to score some wheels on craigslist and then install "normal" tires, all for a lot less than $1600!

uplanderguy

Geez andre, you are lucky. I've heard over the years that ten years old should be about the limit for tire life. The 195-75-15's I put on my Lark in my signature pic, were about eight years old when I sold the car and I was getting a wobble at low speeds. When I bought my '64 Daytona Hardtop, the owner said 'tires great!'. When the car was delivered to me, I looked at the codes and they were eighteen years old. I never drove that car over about 35 mph or more than maybe five miles at a time.

isellhondas

A lot of tire shops will refuse to repair a tire that had gone past it's date code.

How did we ever survive in the "old days"?

fintail

Cheaper than a new one, or restoring an old one

Mr_Shiftright

300 Turbo Diesel are swell cars---as long as you don't expect it to run like a new one, or get the fuel mileage. I wouldn't mind having that car, but not at that price. If you don't run 'em too hard, they last a long long time.

tjc78

@omarman said:
After 20-25 years since they originally came to market it seems like we are the future for such cars. If you had to make space and commitment to a "90s supercar collection" what would it be? I'd include 80s "collectibles" too because I always liked the early M3. Love to have an E30 M3 but are they really going for this kind of money now? If so, well, that would limit my collection (and commitment) to maybe a clean original shark nose 635CSi/M6.

Wow, that is some crazy money.... What I find funny about those is that they share wheels with early 90s Town Cars and they work well on both despite being polar opposites.

uplanderguy

I think those were the last Town Cars I thought were good-looking. Am I remembering wrong (an absolute possibility), or did some years of that model not have the stationery 'vent'-style window in the rear doors?