Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

Yeah, 70mph would be pushing it - maybe on a downhill run with a tail wind. Acceleration maybe like a governed semi pulling a loaded trailer. I hope it was a manual, as the 190D fintail could be had with an automatic.

And speaking of MBs

Meanwhile, in Europe, things are a little more expensive

@bhill2 said:
My mother's cousin had one of those. It was even the same year, I think. Magnificent workmanship and controls operated with total smoothness and function. Had to flog it like crazy to make it across an intersection before the light turned red again. It as a perfect car for him, though. He lived in a rural area between a couple of medium sized towns and had his own musical instrument business. He went out to customers homes fixing and tuning pianos and giving lessons, so he could just putter along on country roads with no need to go on the highway. Good thing, since it would probably take a couple of miles to get it up to 60 and I'm not sure it could do 70.

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't mind having one to putt around town but they really are too dangerous for modern freeways.

190SL--prices for fully and beautifully restored ones are reaching obscene levels. 150K and it looks like the only way is up. I know they are better built than an MGB but worth 6X the price for a show car? Really?

fintail

They are riding the 300SL wave - nice 300SL roadsters seem to have shot past 500K now , I remember when they were 250K, not terribly long ago.

Speaking of expensive, this 6cyl W108 brought good money - wonderful looking car, but that's a lot for the spec. C'mon fintails, jump on board.

Mr_Shiftright

Kind of a freak result there. Probably it's worth $20K right now. We'd have to test it by trying to re-sell it for the same price. Maybe it's going overseas? Seems like an exceptionally nice car. Those older 280SEs were big solid cars that drove like a dream. Modern enough for today's roads, too. Fortunately, it's an SE.

bhill2

@fintail said:
Yeah, 70mph would be pushing it - maybe on a downhill run with a tail wind. Acceleration maybe like a governed semi pulling a loaded trailer. I hope it was a manual, as the 190D fintail could be had with an automatic.

Yes, at least it was a manual. I cannot imagine an automatic even getting moving.

stickguy

that Benz to me is "the" MB.

fintail

It's a fantastic car - great colors, perfect options, amazing documents - but I've seen ones 90% as nice bring half the money. Maybe the ultimate survivor 108, but it is still a 6cyl MB sedan - something the market has generally ignored. As survival rates continue to slowly decline, maybe that will change? On the pro side, the new owner doesn't have to do anything - way cheaper to buy even at that price than restore. Late run cars like that probably do better than earlier ones, too. I'd even keep the funny delay wiper thing under the dash.

I wonder if a 220SE fintail in similar preservation would do as well. In Europe it definitely would, and a 300SE fintail in similar condition would do much more.

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Kind of a freak result there. Probably it's worth $20K right now.

Mr_Shiftright

People's willingness to pay higher prices for one classic car over another has little to do with the merit of that car over the "lesser" one. In the end, it's the old supply and demand formula, which changes from car to car.

In the case of the pristine 108, the number of people who want one, and the number of pristing 108s, is pretty low---so I can see just a few pristine 108s satisfying the market and then the market will remain stagnant for the next ten years. But for the 190SL for instance, obviously there were more people jumping into the market for them, while the # of good cars stayed the same. So price goes way up.

I don't see some huge upsurge in interest for older Mercedes 4-doors. Not that many new buyers are jumping in year after year.

It's like with postwar American cars 1946-1954---- a very stagnant market. In time, if fewer and fewer people want these cars, and yet the number of these cars remains the same, the prices will drop--and in fact, are already doing so.

andre1969

Well, it's only been about 5 years in the making, but today I finally got off my butt and dragged out the aluminum Mirada wheels that I want to put on my '79 5th Ave. They're not in the best shape in the world, but hey, I only paid $75 for them. So I figure they're appropriate for a $900 car!

Here's a couple pics. I've sprayed them, soaked them with a mixture of car wash, wheel cleaner, and "Whip It". So, hopefully they clean up okay...

Mr_Shiftright

If there's no clear coat on them, you can take a mild steel wool to them.

stickguy

they don't look all that bad since they still need to be sponged off and polished. But if you want them nicer, plenty of places can redo them. Probably not a wise investment though.

I would have them checked if possible to make sure they are at least close to round.

andre1969

I dumped the 5th Ave off today, at the night drop, for the mechanic to check out a couple of leaks the car seems to have developed. If they're nothing catastrophic, I'll have them fixed, and then the next step will be dealing with these Mirada/Cordoba wheels. If it's an expensive repair though, and the leak is bad enough that the car's not driveable for very far, I might end up just taking it off the road, but keeping it around as a parts car for my other New Yorker. Three of the alloy wheels look good, but the fourth does have a spot where it looks like it was dropped at some point. So that might be a concern.

I wonder how hard these things are to find, these days? I tried searching on eBay, but no luck. Unless I've just used the wrong terms?

FWIW, here's more or less what the beast will look like, once the rims are on...

One of my co-workers snapped this shot for me a couple years ago, when he saw another 5th Ave on Route 50, on his way into work.

fintail

Cool wheels, they suit the car - perhaps they could have been special ordered when new? They have to be uncommon today, coming from a 30+ year old car that wasn't loved when new. You won't see many out there.

Well, it's only been about 5 years in the making, but today I finally got off my butt and dragged out the aluminum Mirada wheels

fintail

Maybe demand will change? There was little demand for the pretty yet boring and slow old 190SL, then suddenly something changed. Maybe not a huge upsurge, but I don't see them depreciating, as old MBs are becoming more of a cult with each passing year.

And in Europe, it's crazyland:

A W112 fintail is especially sought after, that's pricey

Low miles, high price

220SEs aren't cheap

Same tires as my car, different price

Same color as my car, different price

Speaking of projects, I went to the little auto auction again today. They had some oddballs - ~70 Beetle, 260Z 2+2, 77 Caprice, 85 Parisienne (both were sad old heaps), 84 300SD that looked good from far, but when you got close could see that someone painted it black with a shop vac set on "blow" - over a pretty silver blue original paint. A few 90s era grandma cars - clean 95 Crown Vic etc.

But there was a car I almost stayed to bid on - if I only had space and time, I could detail it and flip it, as I am sure it went for nothing. 88 300TE - 135K miles. Very straight, but dirty from being stored. A good bit of paperwork, original window sticker - sold new locally, no rust, no body damage that I could see, apparently not smoked in, even had original floor mats. I don't know if it had a mechanical fault, but it presented well, and I kind of felt sorry for it. I had to get a couple pics inside - it was pretty nice. Base car with no options, smoke silver on brown tex:

@Mr_Shiftright said:
People's willingness to pay higher prices for one classic car over another has little to do with the merit of that car over the "lesser" one. In the end, it's the old supply and demand formula, which changes from car to car.

Mr_Shiftright

There might be a gradual increase but in the supply and demand equation the initial production numbers matter a lot. They only made 25,881 of the 190SL, whilst fintails are plentiful. Also more people want 190SLs than want fintails, so that's a further influence on the supply/demand ratio.

As for the prices in Europe, keep in mind what it would cost for you to ship a fintail to Europe, transport it to the buyer's home and pay all the taxes. So figure on a $7500 fintail by the time you register it in Germany it's maybe....what...a $12,500 car?

I'd say you can look at your car as appreciating like a Certificate of Deposit, rather than like a 190SL. More than you can say for many old cars anyway.

@fintail said:
Maybe demand will change? There was little demand for the pretty yet boring and slow old 190SL, then suddenly something changed. Maybe not a huge upsurge, but I don't see them depreciating, as old MBs are becoming more of a cult with each passing year.

fintail

Keeping up with inflation is good enough for me. My car is far from an investment, but I do think the cars are being more appreciated as time goes on. It makes me feel a little less bad about spending money on what is really just a frivolous toy or sentimental object.

A 190SL is rarer in production terms, but maybe not survival. I bet there are more roadworthy 190SLs remaining than 220SE fintails - although they made 65K or so of the latter, they were simply used until they decayed, then thrown away - while the fun open car was saved. I know demand is a factor too, and the open car has a lot more.

If you'd be in for 12K on that fintail, and could flip it for 17K in Europe, that's a fair profit. A lot of cars have gone back, mobile.de has many US imports, including that blue 220b I linked. I suspect quite a few rare W112 cars have gone back too - might be able to double your money on one of those.

@Mr_Shiftright said:
There might be a gradual increase but in the supply and demand equation the initial production numbers matter a lot. They only made 25,881 of the 190SL, whilst fintails are plentiful. Also more people want 190SLs than want fintails, so that's a further influence on the supply/demand ratio.

As for the prices in Europe, keep in mind what it would cost for you to ship a fintail to Europe, transport it to the buyer's home and pay all the taxes. So figure on a $7500 fintail by the time you register it in Germany it's maybe....what...a $12,500 car?

I'd say you can look at your car as appreciating like a Certificate of Deposit, rather than like a 190SL. More than you can say for many old cars anyway.

oldbearcat

@isellhondas said:
Isell:

My 48 runs standard 4:11 gears, and, consequently, turns a lot of revs to make about 60 on interstate runs. I read a couple of articles about setting valve clearance on this engine, and, the experts recommend setting them at the top specified clearance to keep the valves from burning if they're frequently run hard. That's how I set them, because I frequently run her on the interstate.

Regards:
Oldbearcat

isellhondas

Oh, I didn't know that. On one of my 52's I had to replace the rocker arm assembly because of wear. those old 216's weren't made for modern freeways and anything over 60 or so is really pushing it. Still, they were better engines than some people think they were. Yes, the 235's with full pressure oiling were better but if they weren't flogged and didn't run low on oil, the 216's could last a long time.

At the slightest hint of rod knock prompt action must be taken!

On one of my old Chevies, I found a receipt from 1960. The Chevy Dealer had charged, I believe, 32.00 to drop the pan and shim and adjust the rod and main bearings!

isellhondas

Jaguars anyone?

This person is selling their "collection"

Any opinions?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4489819732.html

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4489819732.html

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4489819732.html

I do like the 12 banger!

qbrozen

all 3 links are the same, isell.

I still feel like I'll have an XJ8 one of these days. Good that he has replaced the tensioners already, but I'd want to see the receipt if the guides were replaced, too, as I believe that's the real problem, if I remember correctly. Still, though, that's a buttload of miles.

qbrozen

I just check for Jags on your craigs and came upon the 6-cyl XJS vert from that same seller (didn't even realize such a thing existed).

That sure is a pretty color, though.

I don't see a 3rd from that same seller, but did find this one, which looks pretty nice, although I wish it were a different color combo.

Mr_Shiftright

Too miled up for my comfort level.

@isellhondas said:
Jaguars anyone?

This person is selling their "collection"

Any opinions?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4489819732.html

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4489819732.html

http://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/4489819732.html

I do like the 12 banger!

fintail

I remember a lot of that era XJ were claimed by Cash for Clunkers.

There are a few of those XJS cabrios in the area, I used to see one near me almost every day. You'd have to be brave.

oldbearcat

@isellhondas said:
Oh, I didn't know that. On one of my 52's I had to replace the rocker arm assembly because of wear. those old 216's weren't made for modern freeways and anything over 60 or so is really pushing it. Still, they were better engines than some people think they were. Yes, the 235's with full pressure oiling were better but if they weren't flogged and didn't run low on oil, the 216's could last a long time.

At the slightest hint of rod knock prompt action must be taken!

On one of my old Chevies, I found a receipt from 1960. The Chevy Dealer had charged, I believe, 32.00 to drop the pan and shim and adjust the rod and main bearings!

I agree. I had to replace some rocker arms and bent pushrods in mine as well. Funny thing is - I read a old Floyd Climer road test of a new 49 Chevy with essentially the same drivetrain my 48 has. He wrote that he ran the car flat out, making 90+ MPH, for several hours - and the engine held up fine. Not about to try that one with a 66 year old car. Anyway - passed a nice looking older Bentley on the interstate today. No tag on the truck to indicate what model it was.

Regards:
Oldbearcat

lemko

153,999 miles is too much miles on it for a Mercury Grand Marquis let alone a Jaguar. It would take one very brave, rich, or reckless and self-destructive individual to take on that Jag no matter how pretty it is. Buying that car is like dating a supermodel hot woman who was just released from a mental hospital after a failed murder-suicide incident.

Mr_Shiftright

I think a miled up Jaguar would eat money like an Orca barreling through a sardine factory.

if the transmission barfs, the car is basically totaled.

isellhondas

@oldbearcat said:

I remember those Floyd Clymer articles and Tom Mc Cahill too!

I once got my 1950 Chevy up to over 90 MPH too and it did just fine.

I didn't know any better at the time.

ab348

@isellhondas said:
I remember those Floyd Clymer articles and Tom Mc Cahill too!

Ah, Tom McCahill... when I was a kid I got huge laughs out of some of his lines:

"It was raining like tears in a onion cannery..."

"...more sex-appeal than a boatload of starlets anchored off Alcatraz."

"This doll was as loaded as an opium peddler during a tong war...."

"As easy to get into as a floating crap game with fresh money..."

"This rig has all the belt of a 2 mile swim in a whiskey vat..."

"...as snarly as a bengal tiger in a butcher shop."

"It went over like a keg of brandy in a prison camp..."

"...rolls like the Queen Mary in a full gale."

stever

I have a 1977 Mechanix Illustrated magazine sitting in the "to be tossed" pile right here. No special bon mots though.

isellhondas

When I was about 13, I was given a huge stack of Mechanic Illustrated magazines and I read everything he wrote. He was THE MAN for many years. I read an account of his life that was written after his death. He was a Yale graduate and he was, the real deal.

The article said he smoked three or four packs of Salems a day and stated up watching television every day until the stations quit advertising.

MI never announced his death until years later as I recall.

stickguy

I remember reading him as a kid.

stever

I was more of a fan of Smokey; really was more of a fan of Popular Science so saw more of his work.

ab348

@isellhondas said:
When I was about 13, I was given a huge stack of Mechanic Illustrated magazines and I read everything he wrote. He was THE MAN for many years. I read an account of his life that was written after his death. He was a Yale graduate and he was, the real deal.

The article said he smoked three or four packs of Salems a day and stated up watching television every day until the stations quit advertising.

MI never announced his death until years later as I recall.

Yes, I found that strange. I heard about him dying, in the news I suppose, but MI kept him "alive" for a long time afterwards. Guess they didn't want to lose the franchise so they had someone ghost his column.

I remember reading a profile of him when he was still alive and they said he smoked Winston 100s. I remember being surprised because he was always photographed with a briar pipe. Guess it was mostly a prop. He lived quite the life, came from some money, enjoyed the finer things.

omarman

Here's a link to a classic McCahill report from MI 1973 regarding the 1971 Datsun 1200.

The Environmental Protection Agency in mid-1973 named the Japanese-made Datsun 1200 the most economical car sold in this country, based on their gasoline mileage test....That's quite a claim -- America's most economical car. Especially on a car that's no longer being made.

Good article, funny, and interesting slice of life in the early 70s. Also note partial credit for the report given to Brooks Brender, McCahill's stepson and assistant. I believe Brender was the ghost writer of McCahill reports for years after Tom's death.

fintail

I once saw a Mechanix Illustrated with a W112 300SE fintail on the cover, jumping a sand dune, and the caption said something like "tomorrow's car, today". I need to find that issue. When I was a kid, I'd find those magazines at yard sales, McCahill was very amusing to read.

hpmctorque

@lemko said:
153,999 miles is too much miles on it for a Mercury Grand Marquis let alone a Jaguar. It would take one very brave, rich, or reckless and self-destructive individual to take on that Jag no matter how pretty it is. Buying that car is like dating a supermodel hot woman who was just released from a mental hospital after a failed murder-suicide incident.

Interesting comparison!

andre1969

I just had this pop up as an ad, most likely because yesterday I did a Cars.com search for Chevy Impalas in my area...

1979 Impala sedan in, of all places, Illinois (not quite in my neighborhood...)

At a quick glance, it looked slightly tempting in the thumbnails. Until I read the description and then looked at the pics more closely. $2195?! What's this thing worth realistically? About $300? Heck, it doesn't even have all of its windows in! Unless someone figured out how to make that passenger side rear door window roll down all the way...

I wonder what engine it has in it now? According to the VIN, it originally came with the 305-2bbl, which got choked down to 130 hp that year. CR tested one, and got 0-60 in about 15.4 seconds. Oh well, at least the car looks kinda tough, with its black paint and those Monte SS looking rims.

ab348

@andre1969 That's a parts car at best.

texases

I hadn't heard of a Impala "SS" in '79? Trim pack? Obviously nothing special under the hood.

stickguy

A DIY model SS.

texases

@stickguy said:
A DIY model SS.

More of a DIY meSS...

andre1969

Yeah, there's no such beast, and if there was, I don't think they would have offered it on a 4-door car in 1979! The last year for an Impala SS was 1969, at least until the 1994 revival.

in 1979, I think the engine choices for the Impala/Caprice were a 105-110 hp 250-1bbl inline 6, the 130 hp 305-2bbl, and a 170 hp 350-4bbl. Chevy introduced a 160 hp 305-4bbl that year, but I think it was only offered on the midsized cars. I believe that was also the year the small 267 V-8 came out, but again, I think that first year it was only offered in the Malibu/Monte Carlo. Possibly the Camaro as well, but I don't think it went in the Caprice/Impala until 1980.

Mr_Shiftright

I seriously doubt a wrecking yard would even take it.

isellhondas

For the very brave!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Citroen-DS-21-Pallas-1969-Citroen-DS21-Pallas-leather-factory-Air-Great-restoration-candidate-/331220068975?
forcerrptr=true&hash=item4d1e412a6f&item=331220068975&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

These must have a following...six bids so far and over 3000.00!

Hello...AAMCO...can you guys overhaul my Citromatic?

texases

@isellhondas said:
For the very brave!

Hmm...frozen engine, and likely internal corrosion in the super-complex hydraulic system..."very brave" is putting it mildly!

andre1969

Just for kicks, I looked around on Craigslist locally, and found this '77 Bonneville with a 400 V-8, for $2,000

And now, I kinda wish I hadn't...this actually seems kinda tempting, for the money! Wonder if he'd take a bit less if I told him to keep the rims...

isellhondas

I think that Citroen would look just great cruising the streets of Sausalito!

What NUTS is the fact it's already bid to over 3000.00!

I must be missing something here.

isellhondas

Another real oddball!

http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/cto/4489733495.html

Not my cup of tea but a rare find indeed!

isellhondas

@andre1969 said:
Just for kicks, I looked around on Craigslist locally, and found this '77 Bonneville with a 400 V-8, for $2,000

Oh, just keep the rims Andre! they might fit on your De Soto!

And now, I kinda wish I hadn't...this actually seems kinda tempting, for the money! Wonder if he'd take a bit less if I told him to keep the rims...

andre1969

@isellhondas said:
Oh, just keep the rims Andre! they might fit on your De Soto!

They won't fit the Desoto, but I think they would fit my '76 LeMans. IIRC, when GM downsized their big cars, the B-body sedans and coupes (Catalina/Bonneville/Parisienne, Impala/Caprice, LeSabre, Delta 88) used a 4.75" bolt pattern, while the wagons and C-bodies (Electra/98/Cadillac) used a 5.00" bolt pattern. And if they wouldn't fit my LeMans, they'd fit my Catalina.

The DeSoto uses a relatively dainty 4.5" bolt pattern. It's actually swappable with my old 2000 Intrepid, although by that time they were calling it the 114.3mm pattern.

I always thought it a bit odd that GM would use two patterns that were so close together like that. Over the years, compacts, pony cars, intermediates, and most full-sized Chevies used the 4.75" bolt pattern, while full-sized Pontiac/Olds/Buick/Cadillac models used a 5.00" pattern. Wouldn't it have made sense to pick one and stick with it?

FWIW, Chrysler used a 4.00" pattern on compact Darts and Valiants, at least until they put disc brakes on the cars in the 70's. Then they went to a 4.5". Mid and full-sized cars, as well as disc brake Darts and Valiants in the 70's, had the 4.5" pattern. Apsen/Volares, which were marketed as compacts, also used the 4.5". I think some Imperials over the years, however, used a larger 5.00" pattern.