MB Classic Center is there, so that's a plus. I can't imagine what a restoration there would cost, might as well send it back to Germany
Most places can be nice if you have enough money. And if you don't, usually not so much. Interesting to think of what cars are slumbering there right now, awaiting discovery. Probably more than anywhere else in the world.
@Mr_Shiftright said:
Even Texas governor Perry plans to move there after his political career. It's true, California is not only Car Heaven (they don't rust here for the most part), but it is very diverse. We even have world-class rednecks, cowboys, surfers, grouchy old men, and white middle class shaman priestesses. As one writer put it: "California is god's most interesting experiment".
Also I might add, some of the world's best talent in automotive restoration and customization.
Who knows what automotive gems are still lying out there in the desert, or in barns up in the wild north of the state?
@fintail said:
Regarding 7-series vs S (and others), I don't know if they were really ever meant to compete, directly. 7 was traditionally a little smaller, and a lot sportier. As BMW has bloated and become mainstream, the line is blurred, but it is still a slightly smaller and maybe sharper handling car. The S has always been about quality and high speed handling competence, but not necessarily something you'd want to take on a track. It almost seems to be designed to look and feel heavier than it is. Audi didn't enter the price range until the A8, which we didn't get until 1997. It competes on style/design more than anything else, I think. The new S is miles above either in terms of poshness, to the point where BMW is rumored to be considering a 9-series to compete. LS is in the area now too, of course, but on a global level isn't very competitive, and right now is an elderly design that must be competing mainly on isolation and price. Jag hasn't really been there until the current XJ - I don't know if previous (smaller) ones really went up against S and 7, rather were in a world of their own.
From what I understand, that inland empire part of CA is great if you like meth and lifted bro trucks.
I read that, when asked about the 9, a high level BMW exec said the company won't introduce a 9-Series. He went on to say that some of the features and styling cues of the 9 that was displayed in China will be incorporated in the next 7 platform. The 7 will remain the top-of-the-line BMW, according to this spokesperson.
Probably a good idea - reacting by making a 9 series makes it look like the 7 wasn't adequate. Don't want to lose face.
I've seen some of those late 90s E38 7-series at the local auto auction. They tend to look OK, but you just know they'll be a hopeless money pit. I remember one had stack of receipts - if you put all that money into a car, and now it's being sold at a cheapo auction, that says something.
The vehicle isn't finished! If it were all done he might get that price but as it sits, I don't think he'll get what he's asking. It would be interesting to see what the "one offer" is---I'd guess considerably less. Needs a new pop up top, probably a new fridge, and it doesn't sound like the chassis suspension etc has been redone.
I know the later Euro conversions bring just CRAZY money and get snapped up as soon as they hit the market.
Think how gutless that must be with the automatic...er...wait...it does have a "Porsche" engine as the owners used to say.
" Not sure if the refrigerator works" Yeah, right. I also missed the part about needing a new pop up tent. Those aren't cheap and require professional installation. Cheap blue paint over the original yellow. I'll bet he's a Curbstoner looking for a "grape".
Crazy price, that's restored Westy money. I like the painted on VW emblem in place of the correct chrome one which can probably be bought for $20. Attention to detail! I suspect I could find this location based on the background, Bellevue has regional architecture. And I'd love to see how an automatic VW van would fare over Stevens Pass.
Maybe the blue is an homage to the Back to the Future VW driven by the Libyans.
@isellhondas said:
I know the later Euro conversions bring just CRAZY money and get snapped up as soon as they hit the market.
A BMW 9-series sounds sort of like a modern equivalent of a Pontiac Grand Ville...a car you really don't need, with a flagship already in place. Seems to me that anything above a 7-series/S-class/A8 would be so low-volume that it wouldn't be worth the development costs. Unless you're going into really high-dollar territory like Rolls Royce or something?
@andre1969 said:
A BMW 9-series sounds sort of like a modern equivalent of a Pontiac Grand Ville...a car you really don't need, with a flagship already in place. Seems to me that anything above a 7-series/S-class/A8 would be so low-volume that it wouldn't be worth the development costs. Unless you're going into really high-dollar territory like Rolls Royce or something?
Didn't MB try that ... with Maybach? How did that go?
Hey, that got me thinking. Whatever happened to the VW Phaeton? According to Wikipedia it's still being produced, but I don't think you've been able to get it here for a few years now. I always thought those were handsome looking cars, if a bit out of VW's normal price range.
Hey, that got me thinking. Whatever happened to the VW Phaeton? According to Wikipedia it's still being produced, but I don't think you've been able to get it here for a few years now. I always thought those were handsome looking cars, if a bit out of VW's normal price range.
I think the Phaeton is going to be re-released here in the States. At least, I thought I read that somewhere.
Yeah, they still make the Phaeton and it's coming back to the USA--but it won't have that complex W8 engine. They make them in the rather famous "transparent factory" in Dresden. I think you can tour the factory on YouTube. It's quite something--quite amazing.
Funny thought, as BMW owns Rolls Royce, and the RR Ghost is in some ways a really deluxe 7-series.
In the future, there will be another MB kind of above the current S, with poshness like the Maybach. But it will not be a completely unique model, just the upper range S-class.
Phaeton has been alive in well in Germany, where it is seen as an old person's car. Like the rest of the luxobarges, 98% of them sold are 6cyl diesel.
@andre1969 said:
A BMW 9-series sounds sort of like a modern equivalent of a Pontiac Grand Ville...a car you really don't need, with a flagship already in place. Seems to me that anything above a 7-series/S-class/A8 would be so low-volume that it wouldn't be worth the development costs. Unless you're going into really high-dollar territory like Rolls Royce or something?
@Mr_Shiftright said:
The 7 series went from being one of the best BMWs you could buy, into one of the worst by the end of the 1990s.
So, given the heavy depreciation that the first and subsequent owners suffered, and factoring in the high cost of maintenance and repairs going forward, would a late 1990s 7-Series net out to be a decent value at today's prices, considering that it's a luxury car?
@andre1969 said:
A BMW 9-series sounds sort of like a modern equivalent of a Pontiac Grand Ville...a car you really don't need, with a flagship already in place. Seems to me that anything above a 7-series/S-class/A8 would be so low-volume that it wouldn't be worth the development costs. Unless you're going into really high-dollar territory like Rolls Royce or something?
I think you're right. The Grand Ville was the answer to the question nobody asked. A 9er could turn out to be BMW's Maybach.
I've heard that the '94-01 style 7-series could be very troublesome, and prohibitively expensive to repair. Shame, because I think they're good looking cars. I think they really nailed the proportions right on that one. The previous models have a dated look, IMO, and the design doesn't flow too well, sort of like one committee did the passenger cabin, another did the rear end, and another did the front clip, and they didn't consult with each other. And the newer models are a bit too overdone...instead of Pontiac aping BMW, suddenly it seemed BMW was aping Pontiac!
As for the Pontiac Grand Ville, I think it actually sold somewhat well from 1971-73, although it did steal some sales from the Bonneville. And as a whole, I don't know if the Bonneville/Grand Ville combined were more successful than the Executive/Bonneville had been in earlier years. And, it just didn't seem like territory where Pontiac was supposed to be going, with what was essentially a B-body with a C-body roof force-fitted on. GM already had the Electra and Ninety-Eight for that role, and the DeVille if you wanted to go even further upscale. But, in the 70's, Pontiac was trying to be all things to all people, rather than focusing on being a sporty step-up from Chevy. And, it would suffer as a result in later years, and GM actually considered dumping Pontiac as a brand by 1982-83.
Pontiac seemed to get hit harder in the '74 fuel crunch than Chevy, Buick, or Olds did. And its big cars never really made a comeback like the others did either, although the downsized '77-79 Bonnevilles were fairly popular. By '75, they were making the Bonneville and Grand Ville look more and more alike, giving the Bonneville the C-body roof treatment as well. So for '76, the Grand Ville was phased out, its role pretty much taken over by the Bonneville Brougham.
"...it just didn't seem like territory where Pontiac was supposed to be going, with what was essentially a B-body with a C-body roof force-fitted on. GM already had the Electra and Ninety-Eight for that role..."
That's exactly what I was implying. The Grand Ville diluted Pontiac's image while it competed corporately with Oldmobile's and Buicks upscale models. How could GM possibly keeps all those brands, not to mention all those models, distinctive and fresh?
I think it's a miracle GM was able to keep all that freshness and differentiation going on for as long as they did. Back in the day, they would re-do their whole full-sized lineup in one year. And that would be a wide range of body styles (2/4 door, hardtop/pillared, convertible, and wagons) spanning five divisions. AND they'd usually be able to do a minor restyle the very next year!
Nowadays, they won't even get three sedans out at the same time...witness the Buick LaCrosse for 2010, the Cadillac XTS for 2013, and the Impala as a 2014. If this was the old days, all three would have come out in 2010, would have some pretty noticeable trim/sheetmetal changes by now, and we'd probably be getting excited about all-new 2015 models about to hit the showroom in the fall...
I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole if you gave it to me for free. In fact, someone DID try to give me one for free and I figured the towing charges would equal the junk value so I declined. It wasn't in bad shape either.
Forbes magazine voted it one of the worst used cars you could possibly buy.
@hpmctorque said:So, given the heavy depreciation that the first and subsequent owners suffered, and factoring in the high cost of maintenance and repairs going forward, would a late 1990s 7-Series net out to be a decent value at today's prices, considering that it's a luxury car?
To your point, the difference between the 1957s and 1958s, and then the 1959s, is amazing. In retrospect I think the 1955-1957s GMs were preferable because they were more space efficient, maneuverable, economical, and assembled better. By contrast, the excess of the newer ones just got more exaggerated. However, buyers and would-be buyers at the time embraced the dramatic changes as progress.
To my eyes, Detroit's 1957s-1959s represented the epitome of bling, even though that term hadn't been invented yet. Of course, there have been scattered example of bling and questionable design since 1959 (eg. think 1960-1962 Plymouths and Dodges),
@andre1969 said:
Nowadays, they won't even get three sedans out at the same time...witness the Buick LaCrosse for 2010, the Cadillac XTS for 2013, and the Impala as a 2014. If this was the old days, all three would have come out in 2010, would have some pretty noticeable trim/sheetmetal changes by now, and we'd probably be getting excited about all-new 2015 models about to hit the showroom in the fall...
That's true, but there are two things that prohibit that today:
A whole lot more goes into making a new car now than it did forty years ago.
Manufacturers actually put some thought into their new models now.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Now that I think back on it too, it wasn't long before GM, and the others, learned how to milk a platform. In fact, the 3-year lifespan almost seems to be more the exception than the rule. For instance, with Chevy, a '49-54 is the same basic car. Then you have '55-57. '58 was a one-year only, although I'm sure it shared some architecture with the '57-58 Buick/Olds/Cadillac, as the cars started becoming more alike. Then '59-64 were the same basic car, although the styling evolved. '65-70 were the same, although there were minor changes in '66 and '68, and more major ones for '67 and '69. '71-76 was the same car. And for the grand finale of the big Chevy, '77-96 was the same basic car, although it did get a skin job for 1980, and a new body on the old frame for 1991.
And yeah, a lot more goes into a car these days, than 40 years ago. I guess if cars were built like they were back in the day, then not only would we be eagerly awaiting the new 2015 Impala/LaCrosse/XTS, we'd also be desperate to trade in our old 2010, because it was getting rattly, leaking God-knows-what, and breaking down and leaving us stranded from time to time!
Is there any truth to the story I read that blamed the overlap between Chevy/Pontiac/Olds/Buick at the high end to an edict within GM (in the '70s?) that all brand executives had to drive their brand cars? No more Caddys for the top Chevy guys, for example? As a result, those executives then required 'nice' versions of each, hence the Pontiac Parisienne...
I'm not sure if that story is true or not. However, I always heard that it was the reason the Grand Ville was introduced, to give Pontiac executives something more in line with an Electra/Ninety-Eight/DeVille to ride around in. In the past, there had been the Bonneville Brougham, which was a very nice, luxurious car inside, and IMO about on par with an Electra or Ninety-Eight. But, it didn't have that formal roofline of the C-body, and it was still only B-body size inside.
As it turns out, the Grand Ville was a bit of a hybrid of B- and C-body when it came to interior room. In the rest of the B-body range (Caprice/Impala, Catalina/Bonneville, LeSabre/Centurion, Delta 88), the hardtop sedans had less legroom in the back seat than the 4-door pillared sedans, and the hardtop coupe had even less still. The Grand Ville only came as a hardtop, or convertible...no pillared sedan. The 4-door hardtop had the same amount of legroom, IIRC, as the pillared sedans, so it was an improvement there. However, I think the Electra and other C-bodies which only came as a hardtop, had more still. I think the more formal roofline also gave it more headroom in the back. So basically, its interior was a bit bigger than the rest of the B-bodies, but still not quite a C-body.
As for the hardtop coupe, I think it was a bit roomier in back than a regular B-body as well, but not sure how it compared to a true C-. I think the convertible, however, was no roomier than any of the others, probably staying the same so that they could standardize the top mechanisms.
I'm not sure what the Chevy executives rode around in, because as nice as a Caprice was, it still didn't have the cachet of a C-body. Maybe they rode around in Suburbans? While trucks in general were still considered workhorses, and had no prestige, I think the Suburban was starting to buck that trend by the 70's.
I think the overlap of vehicles at GM is often stuck on Roger Smith because of the lack of differentiation on cars within each series lineups like the X body Citation or A Bodies such as Ciera. But it seems to me that the distinction between brands really started to gasp before that when GM got caught selling the Chevymobiles. One of the big selling points back then for Olds was their Rocket V8, so the mid 70's use of substitute Chevy 350's tarnished the Oldsmobile brand identity. Subsequent lookalike models only accelerated the deterioration of brand identities at GM. Kind of ironic because GM was starting to copycat Ford and Mercury in this aspect instead of the usual reverse mode back then.
I kind of doubt that the tush of a handful of executives would justify tooling up an entirely new trim line for a BO or P. Probably the deluxe versions already planned were the "default" car for execs who were not supposed to be driving other makes (so that part of the story does have credibility). Perhaps at the tippy-top, the CEO would get a Cadillac limo because he was ruler of the entire domain, but I seriously doubt that the manager of the entire Buick plant would be allowed to drive a Cadillac to work. I'm sure he could buy one of course for private use.
Well, I don't know. The American auto industry was on top of the world during that era, so I wouldn't put it past them to introduce a new line as an after-thought of catering to their own executives.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
yeah but you're talkin' beaucoup millions to start a new trim line. But who knows? Maybe somebody remembers one of their self-aggrandizing bios where they confess to it.
@fintail said:
Funny thought, as BMW owns Rolls Royce, and the RR Ghost is in some ways a really deluxe 7-series.
In the future, there will be another MB kind of above the current S, with poshness like the Maybach. But it will not be a completely unique model, just the upper range S-class.
Phaeton has been alive in well in Germany, where it is seen as an old person's car. Like the rest of the luxobarges, 98% of them sold are 6cyl diesel.
Mabe they can call that Super S-Class the Mercedes-Benz 770 or the the Großer Mercedes?
I could see a Grosser name returning, perhaps. 770 might not have meaning to modern people, and might have a negative connotation to the reactionary or oversensitive. I think there's a LWB-LWB S-class coming that will use the old "Pullman" name, too.
@lemko said:
Mabe they can call that Super S-Class the Mercedes-Benz 770 or the the Großer Mercedes?
@andre1969 said:
I've heard that the '94-01 style 7-series could be very troublesome, and prohibitively expensive to repair. Shame, because I think they're good looking cars. I think they really nailed the proportions right on that one. The previous models have a dated look, IMO, and the design doesn't flow too well, sort of like one committee did the passenger cabin, another did the rear end, and another did the front clip, and they didn't consult with each other. And the newer models are a bit too overdone...instead of Pontiac aping BMW, suddenly it seemed BMW was aping Pontiac!
As for the Pontiac Grand Ville, I think it actually sold somewhat well from 1971-73, although it did steal some sales from the Bonneville. And as a whole, I don't know if the Bonneville/Grand Ville combined were more successful than the Executive/Bonneville had been in earlier years. And, it just didn't seem like territory where Pontiac was supposed to be going, with what was essentially a B-body with a C-body roof force-fitted on. GM already had the Electra and Ninety-Eight for that role, and the DeVille if you wanted to go even further upscale. But, in the 70's, Pontiac was trying to be all things to all people, rather than focusing on being a sporty step-up from Chevy. And, it would suffer as a result in later years, and GM actually considered dumping Pontiac as a brand by 1982-83.
Pontiac seemed to get hit harder in the '74 fuel crunch than Chevy, Buick, or Olds did. And its big cars never really made a comeback like the others did either, although the downsized '77-79 Bonnevilles were fairly popular. By '75, they were making the Bonneville and Grand Ville look more and more alike, giving the Bonneville the C-body roof treatment as well. So for '76, the Grand Ville was phased out, its role pretty much taken over by the Bonneville Brougham.
Hey Andre...ANY BMW can and probably will be "very troublesome".
@fintail said:
770 might not have meaning to modern people, and might have a negative connotation to the reactionary or oversensitive. I think there's a LWB-LWB S-class coming that will use the old "Pullman" name, too.
Don't you think that using the '770' label would allow them to exploit the reputation for fine engineering and luxury enjoyed by the mid-'60s Ramblers with that model designation?
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Haha that's it exactly. The really high V12 model will be the 990 Ambassador.
Funny thing re: SS and SSK, as those cars predate the bad times - but ingrained generations old guilt can do a lot. 770 has similar connotations, as most of them went to certain groups of people.
The 300D wagon is a desirable unit but i do wonder sometimes if people have a realistic assessment of these vehicles. I wouldn't mind having one, but I'd have no illusions that it will be trouble-free, or that it would be 'economical' to operate. While the bottom ends of these engines are indestructible, the cylinder heads can crack, and the HVAC systems can be devilish. Also, they all stink of diesel fuel inside.
The coolness factor is very high, though, and if you don't mind reading a magazine as you enter a freeway ramp, they are nice cruisers at 55-65 MPH. I really liked my 300D just for its tank-like qualities and superb build quality, and once I squared it away mechanically (some $3000 and one year later), it was quite reliable. I sometimes regret selling it, as it would make a handy second vehicle. But when the cruise control went out, and the rear end started to sag, and it was getting time for a 4-wheel brake overhaul, I decided to let it go. It wasn't a wagon, so didn't have that much value.
And the wagon isn't a turbo, so indeed, performance will be relaxed. You don't find them like that much anymore, and it's another one that will be relegated to shows and sunny day cruises, so the everyday quirks won't be so bad. Seller is a dealer, I bet reserve is above 20K.
Jay Lamm--the guy who started the "Lemons" cheapo auto racing, had one of these. I asked why he was selling it, and he said because he was in fear of his life trying to merge, pass and maneuver in modern traffic in the SF Bay Area. He wanted I think $5000 for it. I wasn't tempted.
it's very rare indeed to find one of these that isn't totally clapped out cosmetically with about 25 other things that need fixing. So yeah, if you get a "perfect" one, and you add up all the things you wouldn't have to do to it, it might be worth $15K.
I think this market is like the old Westphalia market---hippie nostalgia.
From my experience last week - a 300D turbo can move along fine, a 240D manual can keep up with slow traffic if you wring it out and stay in less stressful situations. I guess a 300D non turbo wagon would be in the middle.
I don't know if hippies really ever went to the MBs, too expensive when new. Maybe when the biodiesel thing came around about 15 years ago. I'll wager a lot the next owner of that wagon won't be a first time MB owner.
I remember my 300D (which was in very nice shape) up in the mountains in colorado at 8000 feet. I stopped on a slope for a minute and when I put it back in low and pressed on the gas, it simply could not move. I had to back up, race downhill a bit and hook a quick u-turn.
Comments
MB Classic Center is there, so that's a plus. I can't imagine what a restoration there would cost, might as well send it back to Germany
Most places can be nice if you have enough money. And if you don't, usually not so much. Interesting to think of what cars are slumbering there right now, awaiting discovery. Probably more than anywhere else in the world.
I read that, when asked about the 9, a high level BMW exec said the company won't introduce a 9-Series. He went on to say that some of the features and styling cues of the 9 that was displayed in China will be incorporated in the next 7 platform. The 7 will remain the top-of-the-line BMW, according to this spokesperson.
The 7 series went from being one of the best BMWs you could buy, into one of the worst by the end of the 1990s.
Probably a good idea - reacting by making a 9 series makes it look like the 7 wasn't adequate. Don't want to lose face.
I've seen some of those late 90s E38 7-series at the local auto auction. They tend to look OK, but you just know they'll be a hopeless money pit. I remember one had stack of receipts - if you put all that money into a car, and now it's being sold at a cheapo auction, that says something.
I know these have a following for some reason but is it just me or is this seller out of his mind with his pricing here?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volkswagen-Other-VW-BUS-78-WESTFALIA-CAMPER-VAN-AUTOMATIC-vw-t2-vw-bus-/191216401636?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2c8562bce4&item=191216401636&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
The vehicle isn't finished! If it were all done he might get that price but as it sits, I don't think he'll get what he's asking. It would be interesting to see what the "one offer" is---I'd guess considerably less. Needs a new pop up top, probably a new fridge, and it doesn't sound like the chassis suspension etc has been redone.
I know the later Euro conversions bring just CRAZY money and get snapped up as soon as they hit the market.
Think how gutless that must be with the automatic...er...wait...it does have a "Porsche" engine as the owners used to say.
" Not sure if the refrigerator works" Yeah, right. I also missed the part about needing a new pop up tent. Those aren't cheap and require professional installation. Cheap blue paint over the original yellow. I'll bet he's a Curbstoner looking for a "grape".
Crazy price, that's restored Westy money. I like the painted on VW emblem in place of the correct chrome one which can probably be bought for $20. Attention to detail! I suspect I could find this location based on the background, Bellevue has regional architecture. And I'd love to see how an automatic VW van would fare over Stevens Pass.
Maybe the blue is an homage to the Back to the Future VW driven by the Libyans.
A BMW 9-series sounds sort of like a modern equivalent of a Pontiac Grand Ville...a car you really don't need, with a flagship already in place. Seems to me that anything above a 7-series/S-class/A8 would be so low-volume that it wouldn't be worth the development costs. Unless you're going into really high-dollar territory like Rolls Royce or something?
Didn't MB try that ... with Maybach? How did that go?
Right.
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A May-who?
Hey, that got me thinking. Whatever happened to the VW Phaeton? According to Wikipedia it's still being produced, but I don't think you've been able to get it here for a few years now. I always thought those were handsome looking cars, if a bit out of VW's normal price range.
I think the Phaeton is going to be re-released here in the States. At least, I thought I read that somewhere.
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Yeah, they still make the Phaeton and it's coming back to the USA--but it won't have that complex W8 engine. They make them in the rather famous "transparent factory" in Dresden. I think you can tour the factory on YouTube. It's quite something--quite amazing.
Funny thought, as BMW owns Rolls Royce, and the RR Ghost is in some ways a really deluxe 7-series.
In the future, there will be another MB kind of above the current S, with poshness like the Maybach. But it will not be a completely unique model, just the upper range S-class.
Phaeton has been alive in well in Germany, where it is seen as an old person's car. Like the rest of the luxobarges, 98% of them sold are 6cyl diesel.
While I wouldn't think of paying $22k for that (or any) Westy, the $$ they sell for is just NUTS!
http://www.gowesty.com/vehicle_sales.php
So, given the heavy depreciation that the first and subsequent owners suffered, and factoring in the high cost of maintenance and repairs going forward, would a late 1990s 7-Series net out to be a decent value at today's prices, considering that it's a luxury car?
I think you're right. The Grand Ville was the answer to the question nobody asked. A 9er could turn out to be BMW's Maybach.
I've heard that the '94-01 style 7-series could be very troublesome, and prohibitively expensive to repair. Shame, because I think they're good looking cars. I think they really nailed the proportions right on that one. The previous models have a dated look, IMO, and the design doesn't flow too well, sort of like one committee did the passenger cabin, another did the rear end, and another did the front clip, and they didn't consult with each other. And the newer models are a bit too overdone...instead of Pontiac aping BMW, suddenly it seemed BMW was aping Pontiac!
As for the Pontiac Grand Ville, I think it actually sold somewhat well from 1971-73, although it did steal some sales from the Bonneville. And as a whole, I don't know if the Bonneville/Grand Ville combined were more successful than the Executive/Bonneville had been in earlier years. And, it just didn't seem like territory where Pontiac was supposed to be going, with what was essentially a B-body with a C-body roof force-fitted on. GM already had the Electra and Ninety-Eight for that role, and the DeVille if you wanted to go even further upscale. But, in the 70's, Pontiac was trying to be all things to all people, rather than focusing on being a sporty step-up from Chevy. And, it would suffer as a result in later years, and GM actually considered dumping Pontiac as a brand by 1982-83.
Pontiac seemed to get hit harder in the '74 fuel crunch than Chevy, Buick, or Olds did. And its big cars never really made a comeback like the others did either, although the downsized '77-79 Bonnevilles were fairly popular. By '75, they were making the Bonneville and Grand Ville look more and more alike, giving the Bonneville the C-body roof treatment as well. So for '76, the Grand Ville was phased out, its role pretty much taken over by the Bonneville Brougham.
"...it just didn't seem like territory where Pontiac was supposed to be going, with what was essentially a B-body with a C-body roof force-fitted on. GM already had the Electra and Ninety-Eight for that role..."
That's exactly what I was implying. The Grand Ville diluted Pontiac's image while it competed corporately with Oldmobile's and Buicks upscale models. How could GM possibly keeps all those brands, not to mention all those models, distinctive and fresh?
I think it's a miracle GM was able to keep all that freshness and differentiation going on for as long as they did. Back in the day, they would re-do their whole full-sized lineup in one year. And that would be a wide range of body styles (2/4 door, hardtop/pillared, convertible, and wagons) spanning five divisions. AND they'd usually be able to do a minor restyle the very next year!
Nowadays, they won't even get three sedans out at the same time...witness the Buick LaCrosse for 2010, the Cadillac XTS for 2013, and the Impala as a 2014. If this was the old days, all three would have come out in 2010, would have some pretty noticeable trim/sheetmetal changes by now, and we'd probably be getting excited about all-new 2015 models about to hit the showroom in the fall...
Forbes magazine voted it one of the worst used cars you could possibly buy.
To your point, the difference between the 1957s and 1958s, and then the 1959s, is amazing. In retrospect I think the 1955-1957s GMs were preferable because they were more space efficient, maneuverable, economical, and assembled better. By contrast, the excess of the newer ones just got more exaggerated. However, buyers and would-be buyers at the time embraced the dramatic changes as progress.
To my eyes, Detroit's 1957s-1959s represented the epitome of bling, even though that term hadn't been invented yet. Of course, there have been scattered example of bling and questionable design since 1959 (eg. think 1960-1962 Plymouths and Dodges),
That's true, but there are two things that prohibit that today:
Now that I think back on it too, it wasn't long before GM, and the others, learned how to milk a platform. In fact, the 3-year lifespan almost seems to be more the exception than the rule. For instance, with Chevy, a '49-54 is the same basic car. Then you have '55-57. '58 was a one-year only, although I'm sure it shared some architecture with the '57-58 Buick/Olds/Cadillac, as the cars started becoming more alike. Then '59-64 were the same basic car, although the styling evolved. '65-70 were the same, although there were minor changes in '66 and '68, and more major ones for '67 and '69. '71-76 was the same car. And for the grand finale of the big Chevy, '77-96 was the same basic car, although it did get a skin job for 1980, and a new body on the old frame for 1991.
And yeah, a lot more goes into a car these days, than 40 years ago. I guess if cars were built like they were back in the day, then not only would we be eagerly awaiting the new 2015 Impala/LaCrosse/XTS, we'd also be desperate to trade in our old 2010, because it was getting rattly, leaking God-knows-what, and breaking down and leaving us stranded from time to time!
Is there any truth to the story I read that blamed the overlap between Chevy/Pontiac/Olds/Buick at the high end to an edict within GM (in the '70s?) that all brand executives had to drive their brand cars? No more Caddys for the top Chevy guys, for example? As a result, those executives then required 'nice' versions of each, hence the Pontiac Parisienne...
I'm not sure if that story is true or not. However, I always heard that it was the reason the Grand Ville was introduced, to give Pontiac executives something more in line with an Electra/Ninety-Eight/DeVille to ride around in. In the past, there had been the Bonneville Brougham, which was a very nice, luxurious car inside, and IMO about on par with an Electra or Ninety-Eight. But, it didn't have that formal roofline of the C-body, and it was still only B-body size inside.
As it turns out, the Grand Ville was a bit of a hybrid of B- and C-body when it came to interior room. In the rest of the B-body range (Caprice/Impala, Catalina/Bonneville, LeSabre/Centurion, Delta 88), the hardtop sedans had less legroom in the back seat than the 4-door pillared sedans, and the hardtop coupe had even less still. The Grand Ville only came as a hardtop, or convertible...no pillared sedan. The 4-door hardtop had the same amount of legroom, IIRC, as the pillared sedans, so it was an improvement there. However, I think the Electra and other C-bodies which only came as a hardtop, had more still. I think the more formal roofline also gave it more headroom in the back. So basically, its interior was a bit bigger than the rest of the B-bodies, but still not quite a C-body.
As for the hardtop coupe, I think it was a bit roomier in back than a regular B-body as well, but not sure how it compared to a true C-. I think the convertible, however, was no roomier than any of the others, probably staying the same so that they could standardize the top mechanisms.
I'm not sure what the Chevy executives rode around in, because as nice as a Caprice was, it still didn't have the cachet of a C-body. Maybe they rode around in Suburbans? While trucks in general were still considered workhorses, and had no prestige, I think the Suburban was starting to buck that trend by the 70's.
I think the overlap of vehicles at GM is often stuck on Roger Smith because of the lack of differentiation on cars within each series lineups like the X body Citation or A Bodies such as Ciera. But it seems to me that the distinction between brands really started to gasp before that when GM got caught selling the Chevymobiles. One of the big selling points back then for Olds was their Rocket V8, so the mid 70's use of substitute Chevy 350's tarnished the Oldsmobile brand identity. Subsequent lookalike models only accelerated the deterioration of brand identities at GM. Kind of ironic because GM was starting to copycat Ford and Mercury in this aspect instead of the usual reverse mode back then.
I kind of doubt that the tush of a handful of executives would justify tooling up an entirely new trim line for a BO or P. Probably the deluxe versions already planned were the "default" car for execs who were not supposed to be driving other makes (so that part of the story does have credibility). Perhaps at the tippy-top, the CEO would get a Cadillac limo because he was ruler of the entire domain, but I seriously doubt that the manager of the entire Buick plant would be allowed to drive a Cadillac to work. I'm sure he could buy one of course for private use.
Well, I don't know. The American auto industry was on top of the world during that era, so I wouldn't put it past them to introduce a new line as an after-thought of catering to their own executives.
yeah but you're talkin' beaucoup millions to start a new trim line. But who knows? Maybe somebody remembers one of their self-aggrandizing bios where they confess to it.
Mabe they can call that Super S-Class the Mercedes-Benz 770 or the the Großer Mercedes?
I could see a Grosser name returning, perhaps. 770 might not have meaning to modern people, and might have a negative connotation to the reactionary or oversensitive. I think there's a LWB-LWB S-class coming that will use the old "Pullman" name, too.
Hey Andre...ANY BMW can and probably will be "very troublesome".
Some are just worse than others.
Partially a wheel commercial , but some great Porsche sounds.
https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/hear-magnus-walker-s-classic-porsche-911-electrify-downtown-los-angeles-185014457.html?soc_src=copy
This person has been trying to sell this Buick FOREVER! Seriously, it's been on CL for over a year. The ad never changes and neither does the price.
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/4513045097.html
"Must see it" - if the pictures of that Buick are that bad, I don't WANT to see it!
It's just a matter of lowering the price--a LOT.
You would THINK that he would have done this by now. That Buick is certainly nothing special.
Don't you think that using the '770' label would allow them to exploit the reputation for fine engineering and luxury enjoyed by the mid-'60s Ramblers with that model designation?
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
They could harken to the past and all it a 700K...they can't use a reference to their famous SS and SSK models, for obvious reasons.
Haha that's it exactly. The really high V12 model will be the 990 Ambassador.
Funny thing re: SS and SSK, as those cars predate the bad times - but ingrained generations old guilt can do a lot. 770 has similar connotations, as most of them went to certain groups of people.
The bidding will end where?
I saw a 5-speed 260E on Craigslist today, it looked decent and was like $1600 - now I can't find it. Maybe it sold.
It sounds like the ultimate wealth sapping and aggravation machine.
that Benz wagon is really close to Qbrozen, in case you want someone to do a PPI for you!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The 300D wagon is a desirable unit but i do wonder sometimes if people have a realistic assessment of these vehicles. I wouldn't mind having one, but I'd have no illusions that it will be trouble-free, or that it would be 'economical' to operate. While the bottom ends of these engines are indestructible, the cylinder heads can crack, and the HVAC systems can be devilish. Also, they all stink of diesel fuel inside.
The coolness factor is very high, though, and if you don't mind reading a magazine as you enter a freeway ramp, they are nice cruisers at 55-65 MPH. I really liked my 300D just for its tank-like qualities and superb build quality, and once I squared it away mechanically (some $3000 and one year later), it was quite reliable. I sometimes regret selling it, as it would make a handy second vehicle. But when the cruise control went out, and the rear end started to sag, and it was getting time for a 4-wheel brake overhaul, I decided to let it go. It wasn't a wagon, so didn't have that much value.
And the wagon isn't a turbo, so indeed, performance will be relaxed. You don't find them like that much anymore, and it's another one that will be relegated to shows and sunny day cruises, so the everyday quirks won't be so bad. Seller is a dealer, I bet reserve is above 20K.
This listing is the same car
Jay Lamm--the guy who started the "Lemons" cheapo auto racing, had one of these. I asked why he was selling it, and he said because he was in fear of his life trying to merge, pass and maneuver in modern traffic in the SF Bay Area. He wanted I think $5000 for it. I wasn't tempted.
it's very rare indeed to find one of these that isn't totally clapped out cosmetically with about 25 other things that need fixing. So yeah, if you get a "perfect" one, and you add up all the things you wouldn't have to do to it, it might be worth $15K.
I think this market is like the old Westphalia market---hippie nostalgia.
From my experience last week - a 300D turbo can move along fine, a 240D manual can keep up with slow traffic if you wring it out and stay in less stressful situations. I guess a 300D non turbo wagon would be in the middle.
I don't know if hippies really ever went to the MBs, too expensive when new. Maybe when the biodiesel thing came around about 15 years ago. I'll wager a lot the next owner of that wagon won't be a first time MB owner.
that wagon is a turbo, right? says 300 TD on the back.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I remember my 300D (which was in very nice shape) up in the mountains in colorado at 8000 feet. I stopped on a slope for a minute and when I put it back in low and pressed on the gas, it simply could not move. I had to back up, race downhill a bit and hook a quick u-turn.