Yeah, the first thing I'd want to do is get a proper seat back in that Delta. What did those buckets come out of, anyway? They look somehow familiar, but I can't quite place them.
There was a time when the velour was seen as the highest interior material, above leather. This was especially true during the Adenauer days. The velour is also often seen in 600s. The upholstery pattern remained the same until the 90s, and is probably very expensive to replace. But to modern tastes, it definitely doesn't seem "ultimate".
@texases said:
Hmm...at least he has the dash, but I can't put 'ultimate MB' and 'velour seats' together.
Improbable as it may seem now, it's likely that velour, or some other textile material, will make a come-back. Once leather becomes not only common, but old, interior designers of luxury vehicles will want to promote a new, high-end textile material to differentiate their product. It's more a question of when than whether, in my opinion. Chances are it'll be called something other than velour, to convey newness, and to justify a premium price. Nothing stays the same forever.
Great post - there's a small college in the UP with an excellent textile program that has ties with Finnish designers (especially weaving), a Quebec fabric mill and the forestry industry. One recent grad is out in Oregon now going for an advanced degree while working with some big timber company out there to develop new uses for their wood fibers. Another recent grad had a job interview with GM for interiors; she specializes in fabric designs.
The trick is guessing the next trend. Remember denim, Jeep fans? Neoprene?
My vote for a different interior material would be a revival of the mid-70s Ford "panty cloth" - remember that? It was a very finely-textured synthetic knit (?) material that had a bit of a sheen to it and was very smooth as the name implies. I remember sitting in a LTD Brougham with that material in a light Dove Gray that was just really posh.
I wonder if that Ford upholstery would be at all similar in style or texture to the fancy brocade cloth GM used a bit in the 60s. When I was younger, a relative had a 65-66 Coupe DeVille with brocade cloth, it seemed pretty fancy, and it wore well. I also remember seeing it on a 65 Caprice. Maybe the brocade fabric was intended to be just below leather?
I think neoprene might be a hard sell, I think some people have an allergic reaction to it.
@andre1969 said:
Yeah, the first thing I'd want to do is get a proper seat back in that Delta. What did those buckets come out of, anyway? They look somehow familiar, but I can't quite place them.
For some reason it finally hit me...I think those seats came out of a 2003 era Chrysler Concorde Limited. I knew the shape of that seat seemed vaguely familiar...which would make sense, as they'd have a family resemblance to my old Intrepid's seats.
@fintail, seems like Nissan offered neoprene seat inserts on one rig a few years back. Back in my wetsuit days, it didn't take long for them to get good and stinky. Never saw the appeal of having that material for seat covers.
The Germans seem fond of fake leather these days. Our VW came with it, and I think some of the lower MB use it. But personally I think leather will continue to be used for the lux brands - just maybe better quality leather.
Sometimes I hang out at a well-known high end restoration shop and I have seen original leathers from the 1920s still in very good condition--thick top grade hides with no blemishes from barbed wire, etc.
I like the flat tops, but that one looks like it might be too far gone. Too bad.
Re: pleather - did it start in the US in the 30s? I've seen a lot of period Fords with naugahyde. The Germans ran with it in the 50s, wouldn't surprise me if half or more of postwar MB production has came with MB-Tex. I don't see leather going away, but I do see imitations getting better.
Those '59 Pontiacs has some great looking interiors! They used a good grade of vinyl and they had a very attractive design. Even the dashboards were nice looking.
Yeah, I don't think that Poncho is worth any effort or money. Parts car, I'm afraid.
I wonder what the rarest flat top is today. Suppose I could look up production, but I seem to have less memory seeing Pontiac versions than others. GM did know how to do interiors then.
I remember when I was a young teen (early 90s), a friend of my dad's had a 60 Caddy flat top, kind of a dark pink/magenta color, I am sure it was the original paint. It was an unrestored car, but sitting outside, and not getting better with age. Due to this mild climate, it wasn't rusty. I thought it was pretty cool...I don't know what happened to it. It wouldn't last forever where it was.
I'd be tempted by the GMC truck, the Caprice, and Parisienne. The Caddy looks nice, at a quick glance, but looks like it's been repainted. And I'd be concerned about the engine. Lemko could probably ID it by the grille, but all I can pinpoint is '80-85. If it's an '80 with the 368, it could be a nice car, and even the '81 V-8-6-4, I hear isn't too bad if you just disconnect the cylinder deactivation. But otherwise, it's going to have that tiny aluminum 4.1 V-8, a Buick 252 V-6, or an Olds Diesel.
Caddy ad claims it is a 425, probable repaint. It presents well though, interior looks ok in the ad.
The Camaro is interesting, as it seems to be very well preserved, especially as the ad states it is an 83. It has a V8, looks like a 305. Interior is very clean in the ad.
The truck is a "heavy half" in a goofy 70s font, which leads me to believe it is unmessed with. Interior looks decent and original in the ad, too. Grandpa stopped driving years ago, and it was parked until the estate was sold, I bet:
There's a MB in the listings too, a 190E 2.6 with faded red paint. Nothing that makes me want to bid, but it's a fun weird assortment.
I stopped on that 190e, too. At least its the bigger engine. But the exterior is too far gone to bother. Also glanced at the Jag. Something on the windshield about missing parts... no thanks.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Too old for me to remember, but I think this was sold only at Mercury dealers in Canada, similar to the Meteor in those days. It gave them a low-priced car to sell into the price-sensitive Canadian market.
@andre1969 said:
I'd be tempted by the GMC truck, the Caprice, and Parisienne. The Caddy looks nice,...If it's an '80 with the 368, it could be a nice car, and even the '81 V-8-6-4, I hear isn't too bad... otherwise, it's going to have that tiny aluminum 4.1 V-8, a Buick 252 V-6, or an Olds Diesel."
There can't be many 4.1 V8s, 252 V6s or diesels left on the road, given how failure prone those engines were, and their age.
Pretty homely car, and on paper at least, not worth restoring. Might be fun to get it running and safe and just drive it like it is. Or part it out for a more worthy BMW of similar vintage. Current bid of $12,000 seems to be market. One certainly shouldn't pay much more for something in this condition. A car for dreamers.
I was going to go to the auction this morning, but wasn't able to get up and going in time. Oh well, maybe I'll visit the next one.
re: BMW 502 - I think it would only be partable for a cabrio - good luck finding one of those, and it probably wouldn't have 12K worth of parts anyway. Labor of love or driver with patina.
Had to get the Mustang jump started about 10 days ago, left the parking lights on. After the jump start, the airbag light blinked out a code that one of the sensors 'lost contact'.
One of my kids drive drove it yesterday. Took it out for a ride today and the light isn't blinking any more. The airbag light itself does work.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
It appears to be a 1980 Coupe DeVille due to the stand-up crest ornament sans wreath and no V-8-6-4 badging on the front fender ID'ing it as a 1981 model or a HT4100 badge as a 1982 or later. Notice the parking lights don't have the winged crests on them. Also, the wheel covers don't have a red center as on later cars.
That Ferrari is about $15K-$20K overpriced IMO. Don't know about rare--Ferrari made over 2,600 of them, as opposed say to 400 Enzos. The color combination is "rare" because gray over sable is a very weird box to check on the options list. Such eccentricities are generally not rewarded, but rather punished.
I like that Ferrari (and of course can't come close to affording it). But I agree that is an odd color combo. I like the exterior, and the interior, just not together!
well, here are the 3 most recent 1999 F355 spiders at auction:
06/09/14 ORLANDO Regular $60,500 25,950 Avg BLACK 8G A No
06/04/14 MILWAUKE Lease $50,000 14,509 Avg RED 8G 6 No
05/06/14 NEWENGLD Regular $42,000 28,621 Avg RED 8G A No
Not sure why that Orlando one commanded such a premium. Maybe because it was black? That shouldn't be a bump in FL, though. In any case, $85k is obviously absurd.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
@ab348 said:
Too old for me to remember, but I think this was sold only at Mercury dealers in Canada, similar to the Meteor in those days. It gave them a low-priced car to sell into the price-sensitive Canadian market.
>
Canadian Ford dealers also got a Mercury-based car for their dealers to sell, called the Monarch. They were offered from 1946-57, and then from 1959-61. Initially the Monarch was dropped for '58, because it was in about the same market that the Edsel occupied. But when the Edsel failed to catch on, the Monarch came back.
The big Mercurys were downsized for 1961, essentially becoming tarted up Fords. They came down considerably in price, as well. Meanwhile, the Ford Galaxies were creeping up in price and luxury, so I'd imagine by that time, they figured it was enough car to replace the Monarch.
I had always thought that the Canadian Meteor was based on the full-sized Fords, but from '64-76, it looks like it used the Mercury body shell, just with some easy-swap trim pieces changed.
Ferrari pricing is tricky---if there are excellent and recent service records, especially big FAT ones from a well-known service facility, that helps to boost resale; on the other side of the coin, if you have a Ferrari with over 60,000 miles on it, no matter how nice, it is essentially a parts car you can't give away at any reasonable price.
@qbrozen said:
well, here are the 3 most recent 1999 F355 spiders at auction:
06/09/14 ORLANDO Regular $60,500 25,950 Avg BLACK 8G A No
06/04/14 MILWAUKE Lease $50,000 14,509 Avg RED 8G 6 No
05/06/14 NEWENGLD Regular $42,000 28,621 Avg RED 8G A No
Not sure why that Orlando one commanded such a premium. Maybe because it was black? That shouldn't be a bump in FL, though. In any case, $85k is obviously absurd.
Comments
Got me a little curious to see what 70s cars are available on Long Island right now
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4515592679.html I guess that these have arrived
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4541429544.html Go fast special
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4549659321.html Brown Benz. Not a heck of a lot of money
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4549653177.html T-tops are pretty unique here
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4546279193.html Brown camaro but the 4 speed makes it kind of interesting
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4522999688.html Z Car, These are usually rusted to crap but this looks OK
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4549361196.html As seen on 70s cop shows
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4549285565.html Haven't seen one of these oddballs in a long time
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4517901920.html Love fuselage Chargers but this looks rough up close
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4548698680.html Better than most of these but still a strong price
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4528950114.html Those seats! What were you thinking
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4545241891.html These haven't arrived that much and yes, it's brown
http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4525653562.html Looks better than most of these
I like the 79 Z28. Just has an extra zero in there. 44k? Yikes
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I can see the gold TA being where things are today, but the lovely brown Z28 is comical.
The MB looks good in that color. I don't know if the "formica" comment is mocking the laminated wood, or if someone actually replaced it.
I hope the Delta 88 owner kept the original bench seat in good condition. First thing to change.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Yeah, the first thing I'd want to do is get a proper seat back in that Delta. What did those buckets come out of, anyway? They look somehow familiar, but I can't quite place them.
Oh, those wheels...and those bids.
Impressive, as replacing that dash pad will be like finding a hen's tooth.
IMO this is not an actual Euro spec car, but a Euro delivery car with the rare (in NA) velour interior, which was a no charge option up through W126.
Hmm...at least he has the dash, but I can't put 'ultimate MB' and 'velour seats' together.
There was a time when the velour was seen as the highest interior material, above leather. This was especially true during the Adenauer days. The velour is also often seen in 600s. The upholstery pattern remained the same until the 90s, and is probably very expensive to replace. But to modern tastes, it definitely doesn't seem "ultimate".
Improbable as it may seem now, it's likely that velour, or some other textile material, will make a come-back. Once leather becomes not only common, but old, interior designers of luxury vehicles will want to promote a new, high-end textile material to differentiate their product. It's more a question of when than whether, in my opinion. Chances are it'll be called something other than velour, to convey newness, and to justify a premium price. Nothing stays the same forever.
Great post - there's a small college in the UP with an excellent textile program that has ties with Finnish designers (especially weaving), a Quebec fabric mill and the forestry industry. One recent grad is out in Oregon now going for an advanced degree while working with some big timber company out there to develop new uses for their wood fibers. Another recent grad had a job interview with GM for interiors; she specializes in fabric designs.
The trick is guessing the next trend. Remember denim, Jeep fans? Neoprene?
My vote for a different interior material would be a revival of the mid-70s Ford "panty cloth" - remember that? It was a very finely-textured synthetic knit (?) material that had a bit of a sheen to it and was very smooth as the name implies. I remember sitting in a LTD Brougham with that material in a light Dove Gray that was just really posh.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Knitted nylon tricot, per the net. Don't remember that one at all.
I wonder if that Ford upholstery would be at all similar in style or texture to the fancy brocade cloth GM used a bit in the 60s. When I was younger, a relative had a 65-66 Coupe DeVille with brocade cloth, it seemed pretty fancy, and it wore well. I also remember seeing it on a 65 Caprice. Maybe the brocade fabric was intended to be just below leather?
I think neoprene might be a hard sell, I think some people have an allergic reaction to it.
For some reason it finally hit me...I think those seats came out of a 2003 era Chrysler Concorde Limited. I knew the shape of that seat seemed vaguely familiar...which would make sense, as they'd have a family resemblance to my old Intrepid's seats.
@fintail, seems like Nissan offered neoprene seat inserts on one rig a few years back. Back in my wetsuit days, it didn't take long for them to get good and stinky. Never saw the appeal of having that material for seat covers.
@andre1969 for some reason I think Pontiac bucket seats.
The Germans seem fond of fake leather these days. Our VW came with it, and I think some of the lower MB use it. But personally I think leather will continue to be used for the lux brands - just maybe better quality leather.
Sometimes I hang out at a well-known high end restoration shop and I have seen original leathers from the 1920s still in very good condition--thick top grade hides with no blemishes from barbed wire, etc.
Oh, where's fintail....?
This'll keep you busy!
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/4552030477.html
I like the flat tops, but that one looks like it might be too far gone. Too bad.
Re: pleather - did it start in the US in the 30s? I've seen a lot of period Fords with naugahyde. The Germans ran with it in the 50s, wouldn't surprise me if half or more of postwar MB production has came with MB-Tex. I don't see leather going away, but I do see imitations getting better.
Those '59 Pontiacs has some great looking interiors! They used a good grade of vinyl and they had a very attractive design. Even the dashboards were nice looking.
Yeah, I don't think that Poncho is worth any effort or money. Parts car, I'm afraid.
I wonder what the rarest flat top is today. Suppose I could look up production, but I seem to have less memory seeing Pontiac versions than others. GM did know how to do interiors then.
I remember when I was a young teen (early 90s), a friend of my dad's had a 60 Caddy flat top, kind of a dark pink/magenta color, I am sure it was the original paint. It was an unrestored car, but sitting outside, and not getting better with age. Due to this mild climate, it wasn't rusty. I thought it was pretty cool...I don't know what happened to it. It wouldn't last forever where it was.
the rarest flat top would probably be the 1960 Olds 98 4D.
Next local cheap auto auction (tomorrow) appears to have an 80s/malaise gathering. Some highlights:
looks decent:
looks pristine on the site:
grandpa's car? :
survivor:
grandpa's truck:
"sport" :
these are seldom seen on the road anymore:
nor these:
beater for Andre:
Mileage winners:
297K on a Subie-camino:
302K, automatic:
I bet the pickup and the Subie get the top bids.
looking through the site...hmmm... that Integra interests me. E39 doesn't look bad, either.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
OK. fintail...Get your hand in the air!
I'd be tempted by the GMC truck, the Caprice, and Parisienne. The Caddy looks nice, at a quick glance, but looks like it's been repainted. And I'd be concerned about the engine. Lemko could probably ID it by the grille, but all I can pinpoint is '80-85. If it's an '80 with the 368, it could be a nice car, and even the '81 V-8-6-4, I hear isn't too bad if you just disconnect the cylinder deactivation. But otherwise, it's going to have that tiny aluminum 4.1 V-8, a Buick 252 V-6, or an Olds Diesel.
Buy me a cheap pickup. I'll pay you later, once my brother sells his truck after he gets out of prison.
Caddy ad claims it is a 425, probable repaint. It presents well though, interior looks ok in the ad.
The Camaro is interesting, as it seems to be very well preserved, especially as the ad states it is an 83. It has a V8, looks like a 305. Interior is very clean in the ad.
The truck is a "heavy half" in a goofy 70s font, which leads me to believe it is unmessed with. Interior looks decent and original in the ad, too. Grandpa stopped driving years ago, and it was parked until the estate was sold, I bet:
There's a MB in the listings too, a 190E 2.6 with faded red paint. Nothing that makes me want to bid, but it's a fun weird assortment.
I stopped on that 190e, too. At least its the bigger engine. But the exterior is too far gone to bother. Also glanced at the Jag. Something on the windshield about missing parts... no thanks.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Remember, every car at a public auction is an abandoned car.
In some ways, yes. I think this place also gets estate cars and rejects from unsuccessful BHPH backlots, too.
As if a 1961 Falcon isn't homely enough.
The Canadians took it a step farther.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Other-tudor-sedan-1960-Frontenac-The-Canadian-Ford-Falcon-excellent-condition-solid-rust-free-/261524787007?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3ce4178f3f&item=261524787007&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
Too old for me to remember, but I think this was sold only at Mercury dealers in Canada, similar to the Meteor in those days. It gave them a low-priced car to sell into the price-sensitive Canadian market.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
There can't be many 4.1 V8s, 252 V6s or diesels left on the road, given how failure prone those engines were, and their age.
Not cheap and it will be an angelic money pit - but do it right and bring variety to your local BMWCCA meet - stand out from the field of E30s and 2002s.
Pretty homely car, and on paper at least, not worth restoring. Might be fun to get it running and safe and just drive it like it is. Or part it out for a more worthy BMW of similar vintage. Current bid of $12,000 seems to be market. One certainly shouldn't pay much more for something in this condition. A car for dreamers.
Hardly a "Project Car"
Just a cool summer ride and it's only ten minutes from our house!
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/4511343309.html
Also way overpriced, I think.
I was going to go to the auction this morning, but wasn't able to get up and going in time. Oh well, maybe I'll visit the next one.
re: BMW 502 - I think it would only be partable for a cabrio - good luck finding one of those, and it probably wouldn't have 12K worth of parts anyway. Labor of love or driver with patina.
Had to get the Mustang jump started about 10 days ago, left the parking lights on. After the jump start, the airbag light blinked out a code that one of the sensors 'lost contact'.
One of my kids drive drove it yesterday. Took it out for a ride today and the light isn't blinking any more. The airbag light itself does work.
It appears to be a 1980 Coupe DeVille due to the stand-up crest ornament sans wreath and no V-8-6-4 badging on the front fender ID'ing it as a 1981 model or a HT4100 badge as a 1982 or later. Notice the parking lights don't have the winged crests on them. Also, the wheel covers don't have a red center as on later cars.
That Ferrari is about $15K-$20K overpriced IMO. Don't know about rare--Ferrari made over 2,600 of them, as opposed say to 400 Enzos. The color combination is "rare" because gray over sable is a very weird box to check on the options list. Such eccentricities are generally not rewarded, but rather punished.
I like that Ferrari (and of course can't come close to affording it). But I agree that is an odd color combo. I like the exterior, and the interior, just not together!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
well, here are the 3 most recent 1999 F355 spiders at auction:
06/09/14 ORLANDO Regular $60,500 25,950 Avg BLACK 8G A No
06/04/14 MILWAUKE Lease $50,000 14,509 Avg RED 8G 6 No
05/06/14 NEWENGLD Regular $42,000 28,621 Avg RED 8G A No
Not sure why that Orlando one commanded such a premium. Maybe because it was black? That shouldn't be a bump in FL, though. In any case, $85k is obviously absurd.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
>
Canadian Ford dealers also got a Mercury-based car for their dealers to sell, called the Monarch. They were offered from 1946-57, and then from 1959-61. Initially the Monarch was dropped for '58, because it was in about the same market that the Edsel occupied. But when the Edsel failed to catch on, the Monarch came back.
The big Mercurys were downsized for 1961, essentially becoming tarted up Fords. They came down considerably in price, as well. Meanwhile, the Ford Galaxies were creeping up in price and luxury, so I'd imagine by that time, they figured it was enough car to replace the Monarch.
I had always thought that the Canadian Meteor was based on the full-sized Fords, but from '64-76, it looks like it used the Mercury body shell, just with some easy-swap trim pieces changed.
Ferrari pricing is tricky---if there are excellent and recent service records, especially big FAT ones from a well-known service facility, that helps to boost resale; on the other side of the coin, if you have a Ferrari with over 60,000 miles on it, no matter how nice, it is essentially a parts car you can't give away at any reasonable price.
Often a "rare" color is a color nobody else liked!
As we say about the value of rarity in the classic car biz: "It has to be rare ....AND...someone has to care".