Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038

    That's the generation they used to call the "poor man's BMW", wasn't it? I don't think Datsun was that big of a player yet here in the DC area, when those were new. As a kid though, I remember a ton of the 510's from the later 70's. Seems like those little 210's were all over too, as well as the Z.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    You still see 510s on the race track.

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342

    Just like the early Toyotas, they were tinny and very crude little cars.

    But they didn't break.

    If the US automakers had been building quality cars they may have never gotten a toehold.

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483
    edited July 2014

    Maybe I will run into this blue fintail. If it was a 1966, it isn't the same model as mine, but a 230S would look identical to the typical observer.

    Shifty has an idea about old cars - if you drive it hard for an hour, and it doesn't die or vomit fluids or smell (or smoke) like it is on fire, it's probably solid. Yesterday I did that and more to the fintail. Local MBCA had a tour around Mt. Rainier - 250+ mile trip, steep roads, high elevations (including highest place in the park accessible by private vehicle). My old car did well over a mountain pass last month, so I figured why not. The old car drove fine - a little slow on the steep winding road to Sunrise, but I didn't want to abuse it. I also often drove behind a 240D, so I had an excuse to take it easy. It doesn't appear to have burned too much oil, although I doubt I had optimum mpg.

    Here's the car up high enough where there's snow on the ground in July:

    image

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    What is your definition of a rat rod?

    Personally, I thought it is supposed to be vehicle that doesn't look great but has the goods underneath to be fast and reliable. Am I wrong? I see so many ads titled "rat rod" that have crappy drivetrains. So what is the "rod" part of those?

    Here is just one example of what I'm referring to.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126

    I agree, "6 cyl auto out of 78 ford Granada" is not on my list of engines for any "rod", "rat" or otherwise! It's gotten to where anything rough looking that runs gets called a 'rat rod'...

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038

    I'd call that truck a "potential rat rod", as in it's something that would be cool if you hopped up the drivetrain but left the body looking kind of rough and sinister, as it. But it's not a rat rod in its current state, with that 98 hp weakling of a Granada engine.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    A true "rat rod" is a car somewhat cobbled together with whatever you can find on the cheap. It's supposed to be rude in both looks and behavior, and have a home-made quality to it---as much "back-yard inventive" as anything else. If you make an exhaust header out of mom's old water heater piping, that's a rat rod thing.

    @qbrozen said:
    What is your definition of a rat rod?

    Personally, I thought it is supposed to be vehicle that doesn't look great but has the goods underneath to be fast and reliable. Am I wrong? I see so many ads titled "rat rod" that have crappy drivetrains. So what is the "rod" part of those?

    Here is just one example of what I'm referring to.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    well that, at least to me, covers the "rat" part. But shouldn't it be fast for the "rod" part?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Nah, a rat rod doesn't have to be fast--in fact it's better if it's not, since traditionally at least these tihngs were pretty dangerous to drive. It should be LOUD though.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126

    Some kind of V8 would be good, or some imaginative hop-up mods to that I6, at a minimum. Like a Holley 4-bbl on a home-made intake manifold...

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,472

    Was watching another show on velocity last night. Vegas rest rods I think. The stuff they seem to cobble together would qualify. One beast of a model T I think with a truck Diesel engine?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    The operative word for a rat rod is "cobble". If you're putting fancy wheels and sophisticated engineering into a "rat rod", you are unclear on the concept.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126

    Yep, it needs to look like it was made in your garage, with a set of Craftsman tools, a hacksaw, and that $100 Lincoln welder you got on Ebay.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    The operative word for a rat rod is "cobble". If you're putting fancy wheels and sophisticated engineering into a "rat rod", you are unclear on the concept.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    Wiki has an interesting writeup on it.

    And some of those sentiments sum up what I was about to say regarding cobbling junk together in your garage. Maybe "crap rod" would be more appropriate for such a practice. I think there needs to be some art involved, and certainly a good deal of skill. Otherwise it is just a butt-ugly deathtrap.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,335

    @qbrozen said:
    Wiki has an interesting writeup on it.

    And some of those sentiments sum up what I was about to say regarding cobbling junk together in your garage. Maybe "crap rod" would be more appropriate for such a practice. I think there needs to be some art involved, and certainly a good deal of skill. Otherwise it is just a butt-ugly deathtrap.

    Yeah, I have never seen the attraction, myself.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,126
    edited July 2014

    The whole rat rod thing was a reaction against the $100k+ Boyd Coddington hot-rod-as-art-form trend, so I don't have a problem with it, as long as it's done with some skill.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038

    The guy who I bought my '79 New Yorker from had a friend who was interested in pulling its 360 V-8 and powertrain, and putting them in some kind of hotrod. At the time, that didn't make sense to me, as I figured there are better engines to use in a hotrod than a Lean Burn 360.

    But, if "cheap" is the operative word, I guess I can understand it a bit better. After all, I only paid $500 for the whole car.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    Well he could change the heads, intake and carb.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,472

    I always wondered how easy it would be to revive a smog motor like that. Strip if fall the crap, but a Holley manifold and carb, basic stuff like that.

    Or just rake off the muffler to make it sound fast.

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  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,335

    @stickguy said:
    I always wondered how easy it would be to revive a smog motor like that. Strip if fall the crap, but a Holley manifold and carb, basic stuff like that.

    That's part of it, but you need to get rid of the EGR, and do something with the ignition timing and distributor advance curve. A camshaft change might be useful too. Then you mitaswell get into upping the compression ratio and away you go. :)

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038

    @stickguy said:
    I always wondered how easy it would be to revive a smog motor like that. Strip if fall the crap, but a Holley manifold and carb, basic stuff like that.

    Or just rake off the muffler to make it sound fast.

    Actually, my '79 5th Ave has the muffler part covered. Muffler fell off about a decade ago. B) Catalytic converter is still on it, though, so I can still drive it with a clean conscience.

    I don't know if there's much you can do to an old Ford 250 inline 6 to make it faster. I don't think there was ever much of a performance market for those Ford sixes, since the 302 was such a good motor...compact, lightweight, easy to modify. But, you never know...there's a small aftermarket for the Mopar slant six. And even Mopar themselves offered high performance versions of the 170 and 225 in early years, something called a "Hyper Pack" that included a 4-bbl carb and other mods. It boosted the 170 from around 101 hp to something like 148, and I believe the 225 went from 145 to 197. I don't think GM did much with their 6-cyl engines, other than the OHC Pontiac 6 they had for a few years.

    I've heard that with the 360, like what's in my 5th Ave and base New Yorker, simply swapping out the Lean Burn crap for an early 70's style carburetor, distributor, etc, makes a big difference. I know a few people who have said they've done it, but I've never ridden in their cars to see the performance difference.

    Back when the HO 360 first replaced the 340 in the likes of the Dart Sport, Duster, etc, I think it had around 240-245 hp net, and that was with the rudimentary emissions controls starting to make the scene. So, it was capable of some performance. I'd imagine though, that the HO 360 is quite a different beast from the later, more mundane 360's. FWIW, the 340 that it replaced was rated around the same, 240-245 net, but IIRC the 340 had a broader power range, and could rev higher, so it was still a better performer.

    I've thought about doing some mods to one of my New Yorkers, just for the hell of it. The only problem though, is that the older I get, the more I realize there are more intelligent things to spend money on.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    NAH. "Everything passes away , but cars are forever". :)

    Seriously though---it's a HOBBY, and its meant to a) cost money and b) not always be practical. Bird watching isn't practical, and good binoculars and booking tours is expensive; fly fishing? What could be more useless?

    For some of us, TODAY is the "rainy day" we've been saving for.

    So yeah, me buying another Porsche using savings is stupid. And in ten years the doctors are going to get that money and then shove me out the door in a walker. I'm just not seeing the wisdom of never being frivolous.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038

    @Mr_Shiftright said:

    Seriously though---it's a HOBBY, and its meant to a) cost money and b) not always be practical. Bird watching isn't practical, and good binoculars and booking tours is expensive; fly fishing? What could be more useless?

    True, I guess there are worse things to throw money away on than trying to improve the driveability of a '79 New Yorker...

    Maybe I'll look at it more seriously once my DeSoto is done bankrupting me.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,472

    why a shame? What it did to the Porsche name?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,420

    Speaking of rat rods

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4563173324.html 6 cyl and 4.10 gears? So so much metal inside

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4528046952.html This guy is not getting it

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4556427364.html This could be cool. Cragars are a start

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4513972055.html Gave up and pulled the engine. Still wants 5 grand

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4511427598.html Not a rat rod as it sits, but could be a nice car

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4547885578.html I can tell it's a rat rod because Rat is painted on the door. Otherwise, I have no clue

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4465733098.html Can a Camry be a rat rod?

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited July 2014

    Not much upside to a ratty 928--if it ran better than it looked, it might be worth fixing up....maybe.....these cars are extremely pricey to repair and rather complex. I mean, how many automakers designed the steering wheel to adjust by moving the entire instrument panel up and down? :). Awesome car, however.

    But really, the type of car you buy finished, not awaiting surgery.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    not sure what you mean, stick. I mean, we're talking basically supercar performance back in 1983.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,483

    That 928 is a shame, what should be a pristine low mileage gem is a neglected project car at best.

    "Rat rod!
    Being scrapped soon"

    These work well together in many cases.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751
    edited July 2014

    @Mr_Shiftright said:
    Not much upside to a ratty 928

    yup. And just as fintail said, this should have been preserved with those miles. And the "small" dents? Where are those? Must be obscured by the huge one I see in the rear quarter.

    BTW, the instrument cluster moved up and down with the steering wheel in the 350z (probably same in 370z, I'd imagine). I found it kind of annoying because I'm tall but like to have the wheel down low, which then made the gauge tougher to see for me.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    I think that design puts stress on the entire instrument panel, and isn't all that great an idea.

    The 928 is almost the perfect 80s style "GT" car---meant to go long distances at very high speed and in luxurious comfort, but without the dowdiness of a 4-door sedan.

    If you can get one squared away, they'll run forever--a virtually indestructible engine, surrounded by expensive "BUY ME!" electronics and more leather than a herd of cows.

  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261

    A line is missing from that ad for the 928:

    "Dumped into Lake Michigan only once!"

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    There are some cars---that if you don't know what you're doing, and you aren't plugged into that make's network--do NOT go there! The 928 is one of them. With some "oddball" cars, some repair shops may take a crack at them----"Sure, I'll work on your Saab/Audi, Daihatsu, Daewoo---even your Porsche 914 or your MGB....but a 928? Get That Away From Me!"

  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,420

    Saw this last year

    http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/cto/4570457800.html Keep trying bro

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751
    edited July 2014

    I think I remember seeing this here before.

    ooo... 200hp automatic 2nd gen... preservation worthy. :(

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    The story sounds completely bogus but the car certainly does look very original. Who knows?

    Seems like he is at least $10,000 overpriced on this one.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038

    @qbrozen said:
    I think I remember seeing this here before.

    ooo... 200hp automatic 2nd gen... preservation worthy. :(

    At least that sounds kind of impressive when you quote the gross hp rating. In net terms, it was 130. :'( I wonder, would they have offered a THM350 with the 307 by that time, or was this thing still stuck with a 2-speed Powerglide?

    I guess if I went out and disconnected two of the spark plug wires on my '85 Silverado, I might be able to roughly match this car's performance. :p

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    according to wiki, it was a 3-spd

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,472

    I remember that one from the past. if nothing else, would serve well as one of those originality reference cars.

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,472

    Well, the color isn't bad. The rest, ouch. At least he picked a good car to destroy.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,420

    Is there any worse investment than a donk? That must have cost a fortune to build

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    I agree on the paint. I actually quite like it. The rest of it (aside from engine/trans) is plain ridiculous.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038

    I kinda like the green paint, too. It reminds me of a color they actually offered back then. On the 1976 Pontiacs I think it was called "Limefire". And I could even deal with the customizing accents on the paint, although I think I'd want that top to be white.

    Hmm, I just noticed something that I'd never noticed before. It looks like the opera window on the Monte Carlo is shaped a bit different than it would be on a Grand Prix, Regal/Century Custom, or Cutlass Supreme coupe. It seems just a bit more formal in the Monte, with the back edge of the window seeming more vertical than on the BOP cars.

    Now I realize the the cheaper cars, like the LeMans, Malibu, Century, used a different opera window, as well as a different roofline, but never noticed that the Monte's opera window differed from its counterparts.

    It's little details like that, that I kind of miss about cars. At least, until it comes time to find parts...then the commonality is a good thing!

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600

    You don't see many of those in pricey residential neighborhoods.

  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,751

    just ballparking, I'm thinking someone's got about $50k in that, not counting labor.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481

    I'd have to see the quality of the bodywork, but if it's well done, it ain't cheap for that level of skill. Right now in California, top notch paint jobs (never mind the bodywork) are at $20,000, if you want a trim/off, glass out, perfect job.

    What I would have done is made that thing a 4X4 or AWD, and shown it as An "Urban Warfare" vehicle, as in some futuristic dystopia (ala Mad Max). In addition to the sound system, a shortwave radio set, a weapons box and a fridge.

    a survivalist rig.

    @qbrozen said:
    just ballparking, I'm thinking someone's got about $50k in that, not counting labor.

  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038

    @Mr_Shiftright said:
    What I would have done is made that thing a 4X4 or AWD, and shown it as An "Urban Warfare" vehicle, as in some futuristic dystopia (ala Mad Max). In addition to the sound system, a shortwave radio set, a weapons box and a fridge.
    a survivalist rig.

    Aussie DeSotos are good for that...

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