Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

isellhondas

Now this has been on CL for quite some time and it makes no sense at all!

http://seattle.en.craigslist.org/est/cto/4581732848.html

19,000 original miles? Really?

qbrozen

?? turbo? What turbo??

Maybe that's why the engine is gone. Someone blew it up.

Mr_Shiftright

I can't imagine turbocharging a stock RX-7 engine. Even the factory twin turbo, with all the mods and strengthening done by engineers, was a fragile piece of work.

Not sure building a Frankenmod RX-7 is a good idea. Bone stock would be the best course, maybe with a beefier and professionally modded engine.

explorerx4

Mazda is only $1200 asking. There must be something that can be done with that.

Mr_Shiftright

it's worth saving, but for what, is the question. As a running car, it's not worth much--barely the cost of a new engine.

fintail

Those old RX7s have yet to get any collector attention - values are low, and they are still sometimes found in junkyards. A good parts car, perhaps. If a movement doesn't start after 35 years, it might be hard to get going.

Those were one of my favorite cars when I was a little kid.

Michaell

@fintail said:
Those old RX7s have yet to get any collector attention - values are low, and they are still sometimes found in junkyards. A good parts car, perhaps. If a movement doesn't start after 35 years, it might be hard to get going.

Those were one of my favorite cars when I was a little kid.

My sister had a gen 1 RX-7 ... an '85 GS, IIRC. She loved that car .... and I did, too, on the rare occasions I got to drive it.

texases

Those old RX-7s may have stuck around longer had they been fuel injected during the early years. They held off until the GSL-SE, which is the 1st gen to get. Seems like the Japanese makes overall were very slow to go to FI, resulting in a lot of vacuum tube nightmares...

qbrozen

the GSL-SE was the one I was introduced to when my father leased one. Can't remember now if it was an '84 or '85. I've wanted one of my own ever since.

isellhondas

I've owned several RX-7's and they are amazing little cars.

It's hard to believe how fast they are considering the size of that "beer keg" engine.

Making sure to never overheat one is so important. If you blow a hose and try to make it to the next exit, you WILL ruin your engine.

By nature, they have a tendency to use a bit of oil. that's perfectly normal but you do NOT want to run one with not enough oil.

They have a wonderful feel and sound.

Michaell

@isellhondas said:
I've owned several RX-7's and they are amazing little cars.

It's hard to believe how fast they are considering the size of that "beer keg" engine.

Making sure to never overheat one is so important. If you blow a hose and try to make it to the next exit, you WILL ruin your engine.

By nature, they have a tendency to use a bit of oil. that's perfectly normal but you do NOT want to run one with not enough oil.

They have a wonderful feel and sound.

I really enjoyed driving my sister's car.

There was a Mazda in my hometown (I want to say it was an RX-4 coupe) that had the vanity plate "GOS HMM"

Mr_Shiftright

They also go "Slurp, slurp" at the gas pump.

isellhondas

@Mr_Shiftright said:
They also go "Slurp, slurp" at the gas pump.

Yes, they do. I had forgotten about that!

Mr_Shiftright

Maybe what...15 mpg?

isellhondas

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Maybe what...15 mpg?

15 MPG??? MAYBE on a long trip being extra conservative.

Mine would get 10-12 MPG if I kept my foot out of it.

Now, a '65 Gran Sport with the 425 CID with two 4BBLS you are talking about 7 MPG if you keep your foot out of the second carburetor.

AND, mine were fussy about the kind of gas I used. I had to use Chevron Custom leaded. This was the "white pump" 104 octane stuff that is no longer available.

But, oh, how my Rivieras could fly and what classy cars they were!

All three years used a different transmission.

A 1965 Riviera is SO MUCH better in every way than a 1965 Thunderbird but I liked those too.

Mr_Shiftright

'65 T-Bird is awful to drive. I actually drove a modified '65 Riviera that had all modern suspension and brakes and premium tires, and let me tell you, that barge was very stable on country roads---as long as the road wasn't so narrow that you hogged the opposing lane!

andre1969

Wait...what are y'all talking about with regards to "slurp slurp" and 15 mpg? I thought it was the RX-7? I'd always heard that those little rotaries were pigs, at least in relation to their small size, and I think that's one reason why they never really caught one. FWIW, an '85 RX-7 is rated at 15/20 to 15/22 depending on transmission. For reference, that's about what your typical full-sized domestic full-sized 302-307 CID sized V-8s were rated. Of course, an RX-7 would be a bit more fun to drive...

As for old 60's V-8's, well my '67 Catalina can get around 17 on the highway, in the right conditions. But it won't do it reliably. On those trips I take to Carlisle, PA, it usually ends up around 13.5-14, as some of the local driving sinks its economy fast. Around town, it usually gets around 8-10. That's with a 400-4bbl, THM400 transmission, and a 2.56:1 axle

isellhondas

Those old T-Birds used to plow through corners and the pre-65's with drum brakes were probably the HARDEST cars ever on brake shoes! The Ford full sized station wagons were probably even worse. Too much car for those puny brake drums.

When discs arrived in 1965 things got much better.

Andre, full sized Pontiacs were horrible on brakes too. The Grand Prix beautiful eight lug wheels would eat shoes and drums. The part you look at is actually the brake drum.

Back in the late 70's they were still available only through the dealers and were well over 100.00 each. Where would you ever find these now?

Big Pontiacs also used tiny lower ball joints that wore out quickly. You had to replace the entire lower control arms.

Otherwise, great cars....except....they would eat timing gears.

fintail

Got the fintail back - it now has a fresh service, new belts, a rebuilt generator, new voltage regulator, and a weird problem with the front turn signals/parking lights is fixed. It ran fine when I picked it up - no generator light. I think the car is happy.

stever

Gee, you could have taken that money and made a car payment. Maybe two.

andre1969

@isellhondas said:
Andre, full sized Pontiacs were horrible on brakes too. The Grand Prix beautiful eight lug wheels would eat shoes and drums. The part you look at is actually the brake drum.

Back in the late 70's they were still available only through the dealers and were well over 100.00 each. Where would you ever find these now?

Big Pontiacs also used tiny lower ball joints that wore out quickly. You had to replace the entire lower control arms.

Otherwise, great cars....except....they would eat timing gears.

My '67 Catalina needed some front-end work when I bought it, and I ended up getting one of those rebuild kits from Canter auto parts, or something like that. Took it to the mechanic, and he replaced what needed replacing, so I think even to this day I still have some old parts left over.

One thing extra annoying about GM is that the relative autonomy of the divisions meant finding parts today can be a pain. For instance, when I was ordering that rebuild kit, I discovered that it would only work on a full-sized '67-68. Not a '69-70, nor a '65-66. Even though '65-70 was the same basic design, they changed enough stuff every two years. Oh, and the '67-68 Pontiac suspension parts would not be compatible with an Olds, Buick, Cadillac, or Chevy.

Now, contrast that with Mopar, where the suspension parts for a '68 Dart will work on the whole range from '67-76, as well as the Valiant. Of course, once disc brakes were offered, things got a little different. I think some of those suspension parts might have even been shared with the bigger cars. And, there was no difference between the V-8 and the slant six models, at least, if my being able to pull a ball joint and upper control arm off of a slant-6 '69 Dart and putting them on a V-8 '68 Dart are any indication.

fintail

The total was only about one payment on the modern car - not too bad. I have an honest indy mechanic - didn't even bill me for the time spent in looking at the turn signal assembly.

@stever said:
Gee, you could have taken that money and made a car payment. Maybe two.

isellhondas

Does he work on BMW's?

fintail

Nope, only MB. I've noticed a shop in the same area called "Strictly BMW" - they might be worth a try, in my experience, marque-specific shops can be good bets, especially at dealing with odd issues.

@isellhondas said:
Does he work on BMW's?

isellhondas

I'm well aware of Strictly BMW. The previous owners of my BMW provided me with a thick folder of receipts from that place. They were big fans. I'm sure they do great work but some of the prices on these receipts are staggering to say the least.

At least I knew what I was getting in to.

fintail

German cars - you gotta pay to play. It's about come to the point where any work that isn't routine maintenance is good if you can have it done for under a grand.

@isellhondas said:
I'm well aware of Strictly BMW. The previous owners of my BMW provided me with a thick folder of receipts from that place. They were big fans. I'm sure they do great work but some of the prices on these receipts are staggering to say the least.

At least I knew what I was getting in to.

fintail

Where will the bidding end? - looks lovely overall, but that stereo and installation make me nauseous.

ab348

@fintail said:
Where will the bidding end? - looks lovely overall, but that stereo and installation make me nauseous.

Man, you got that right. What a hack job. Wonder if you could get an original wood trim piece to fix that.

It would make for a nice taxi.

texases

@fintail said:
Where will the bidding end? - looks lovely overall, but that stereo and installation make me nauseous.

One of my biggest "WTF" moments in a long time - how could one do it worse?

Another question - is there any modern aftermarket audio head unit that doesn't look cheesy/cheap/'Tokyo by night"?

Mr_Shiftright

yeah they make "retro" heads, but these look more like 50s and 60s American radios, not European ones. I don't know why they put a radio in that car--you're not going to be able to hear it anyway

fintail

Becker makes a "Classic" model on the old pinstripe theme that would look correct through 70s era MBs, but not in the ebay car.

The 300SD probably needs a Becker Grand Prix cassette unit, I imagine a nice one shouldn't be more than $100 or so. We can assume the wood piece is also damaged, so maybe another $100 from a parts car. Not too bad. Like you say, not a lot of use in having a cool stereo in a car like that anyway.

@Mr_Shiftright said:
yeah they make "retro" heads, but these look more like 50s and 60s American radios, not European ones. I don't know why they put a radio in that car--you're not going to be able to hear it anyway

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, old Beckers are cheap on eBay. Not a great unit. Anyway, the AC works on this car, so that's a plus.

omarman

here's the previous ebay listing for the 300SD which ended with bidding at $8,888 and no sale. It's also listed for sale here with a price of $10,000. But even on my local craigslist, $10K buys something +20 years newer, similar colors and miles and lots of functional luxury - albeit Detroit style. And the CL "merc" doesn't have a consumable item like a turbo to contend with.

If I were ever looking for a classic or "collectible" German car then I'd want something like fintail's ride. Gas not diesel, non-turbo, and not just retro looking but really old school. Even after driving in the Mt. Rainier club event the recent fintail repairs amounted to "one car payment."

Seems like the complexity/repair costs for most German cars from the last 30 years means that most of them will never be "saved" like the fintail. Somebody will always want a BMW M3 but remember cash for clunkers? Many happy folks traded in (escaped) money-pit Euro sedans which went directly to the salvage yards! Unless it's something really special don't expect many German cars from the 80s/90s to survive or make future Rainier runs like fintail's car. That's the problem I see with that old 300SD. It doesn't even have a bright future as an old collectible car. Pass.

fintail

Some good info there. On further examination of that particular 300SD, I now have a suspicion the paint might not be original, which will strongly impact value (maybe even to the cost of a paint job) - people who pay through the nose for low mileage old MBs want original finishes.

I think the money pit era for MBs really started in the 90s - 126 cars have a cult around them, and genuinely nice ones continue to bring good money. The diesels have a cult, too. It's the W140 and beyond cars that will see low survival rates.

Some of the old cars continue to be undervalued, but that might not last forever. My anecdotal observations on various forums has an increase in interest in fintails and W108s by younger people. There won't be a huge price spike, but this might be the time for someone to buy, if they want one of these cars. A maintained example won't be expensive to keep, and will be nice to drive, and they are only getting less common. I think the style and affordability of the cars will keep them afloat.

Oh yeah, when I say one payment, that's a new MB payment, not a $199 Civic lease etc

@omarman said:
here's the previous ebay listing for the 300SD which ended with bidding at $8,888 and no sale. It's also [listed for sale here]Unless it's something really special don't expect many German cars from the 80s/90s to survive or make future Rainier runs like fintail's car. That's the problem I see with that old 300SD. It doesn't even have a bright future as an old collectible car. Pass.

Mr_Shiftright

With older sedans of any kind, the price patterns seem to be the same---you can get a good price for a really nice one, but the minute they turn shabby, they are near worthless.

omarman

Oh yeah, when I say one payment, that's a new MB payment, not a $199 Civic lease etc

>

Yep, but either way that makes it a hobby car which is easy to live with. There are so many worse temptations out there...

There's a car dealer in Westerville advertising a nice BMW 8 series for just under $20K. Less than 60K miles, V-12, automatic, one quality repaint, thick service record file, etc. Seller claims it was originally stickered at over $88K and probably true. Nice car as it sits now. After more time and miles roll by then the electronics get sketchy with deferred service issues creeping in, and then it's just another craigslist ad. Doesn't this car have 2 batteries in the trunk and 2 separate ECU chips for the engine? I may have that confused with some other car but still the E31 history was as short and troubled as it was wonderful in its own way. And I still like them. (Help me doc.)

Some have posted before that modern cars have been polished and refined to perform very well and yet still manage to be disposable things. Andre and fintail seem to have a good recipe for enjoying a car hobby which doesn't turn into a fleeting money pit. Maybe that's why we all stay interested in their stories.

fintail

The 8ers are very pretty, but I'd be scared. Really, any V12 is a bankruptcy waiting to happen.

Andre and I have old cars with something in common - they lack an ECU. And maybe we both have an ability to pick battles - I could sink a fortune into the fintail if I wanted to, but for the most part, I am pleased with the patina on the car. I don't demand perfection, I just want it to be roadworthy and maybe not hard on the eyes.

@omarman said:

explorerx4

My 23 year old Mustang needed a new engine computer last year. It's pre OBD2 and luckily the repair shop was able to find a place that will build one. The shop owner told me they had about 40 hours diagnostic time in it. He had mercy on me and only charged me 4 hours labor.

lemko

Fintail, did Mercedes-Benz offer "safety colors" on cars in the 1970s? I was at Macungie this past Saturday, and a man with an orange-red 1976 Mercedes 300D on display claimed the color was advertised as a special "safety color" that made the car more visible.

fintail

I don't recall the term being used in official sales material, but I have heard of it, and can see a salesman using it to sell a brightly colored car. MB had some pretty loud (or "period correct") colors in the 70s. I know of that orange-red you mention. I've also seen bright greens, not subtle yellows, and bright golds. Not understated, as was the style at the time.

@lemko said:
Fintail, did Mercedes-Benz offer "safety colors" on cars in the 1970s? I was at Macungie this past Saturday, and a man with an orange-red 1976 Mercedes 300D on display claimed the color was advertised as a special "safety color" that made the car more visible.

Mr_Shiftright

I was working for Mercedes at that time and never heard such a thing.

fintail

Nice looking final run slow fintail, price seems very fair if it is as good as it looks

My friend's dad has is now willing to sell his 78 or so Town Coupe for more reasonable money. It has something like 25K on it, and is generally nice - but the vinyl top has started to decay, so he's cutting it loose. I think he'll take $3500 for it.

bhill2

@fintail said:
Nice looking final run slow fintail, price seems very fair if it is as good as it looks

>

Having driven a 240D stick (as well as a 190D stick) my mind boggles at the prospect of a 200D automatic. The term "slow as sap" comes to mind.

fintail

I could probably push my fintail up a hill faster than that thing could drive up a hill - but it sure looks clean and honest - and cheap. One could probably make a few grand sending it to Europe and flipping it - if it has no needs. Of course, that's a big if.

@bhill2 said:

fintail

The fintail rejected its recent reconstructed organ, and now has no ability to charge itself at all. Driving to the show this morning, I smelled something a little odd, but ignored it. About 10 minutes later, the generator light came on, and the ammeter reads neutral unless braking or signaling, where it barely goes into negative. A couple of technical experts at the show think the generator puked - had less than 100 miles on it. This will be fun.

The car ran like a top otherwise though, and I wasn't too worried - there's virtually nothing in it to draw down the battery, and the battery itself seems strong. Still, annoying.

stever

New poster seeks advice:

How to maintain a vintage car (Toyota Celica)

gsemike

@stever said:
New poster seeks advice:

How to maintain a vintage car (Toyota Celica)

Someone I know was scared off from buying a Grand National because he got this idea that no one knew how to work on it. 90% of the car is straight Regal, a car that hardly changed from 81 to 87 (or really 78). Lighten up people

gsemike

Any late summer deals on Long Island?

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4593683238.html I still think that these are handsome. Sad this this wasn't better optioned or better color

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4597114110.html I hate ads without prices but maybe a little interesting

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4606030174.html Rough. Seems like you'd have to go out of your way to make this end up like this.

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4586983306.html This is a real love it or hate it ride

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4613899260.html If this is areal Z28, sad how it ended up. I wonder if you scrubbed the heck out of it, if it might look save-able

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4606495643.html A little orange overload but could be pretty fun for the $$

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4613524158.html Pretty cheap admission to the local cruise

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4596657826.html These are weird little things. Any takers?

http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4587381744.html I love the color. What do we think?

andre1969

I like that '76 Cutlass Supreme, although I agree, I wish it was a nicer color. My '67 Catalina and '79 5th Ave are close enough to that color, so I don't want a third car in that range of the spectrum! I wouldn't mind having one in green or blue, though. And the only reason I'd stay away from red/burgundy is that my '76 LeMans is burgundy, so I'd want some variety.

GM still did a really good job of differentiating their cars by that time, I thought. Even though there wasn't a huge difference in price by that time, I think they still did a pretty good job at targeting the cars for their demographic. The Chevy Malibu and Monte Carlo, while a bit pretentious, still had a bit of mainstream appeal, while the LeMans and Grand Prix pulled off a sportier, if slightly pimpy look. The Cutlass seemed like it was way upscale, with its clean, smooth styling...even if prices weren't really that much more. And the Century/Regal seemed upscale as well, just tailored to an older audience.

stever

I like the Rancheros and El Caminos and hope to see a lot more of those when we get moved to NM next month.