Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

texases

Yeah, I just put a crazy high (say 2X) price on it because of the 25 original miles. I guess that might make a difference on a classic/collectable. This is more in the 'neat used car' category, nothing like that premium would apply.

isellhondas

That Seville is amazing!

Getting the mold smell might be a tough thing to do.

Still, it would be fun to wake it up!

stickguy

Not that anyone is restoring one, but it would be a perfect sample to show exactly how it came from the factory.

Mr_Shiftright

They aren't bad cars, if a bit floaty-boaty. You could make it a daily driver. The Olds 350 engine and TH trans are pretty bullet-proof.

isellhondas

I'll bet there is a very good chance that engine is locked up.

I agree, those were excellent powertrains and nice cars to drive.

The more I think about it, the more I would love to dive into that car and bring it
back to life!

Mr_Shiftright

What would you pay for such a car?

andre1969

I remember sitting in a first-gen Seville a few years back at a classic car show, and man, was I disappointed! Now, I'm simply looking at it from a tall driver's perspective, so this has no bearing on how significant the car was for the time, how timeless its design was, etc.

As hard as GM tried to differentiate this car from the Nova (contrast it to the Lincoln Versailles versus a Granada), as soon as I sat in the Seville, the driving position betrayed its humble underpinnings. Every bit as cramped as a Nova, with skimpy legroom, and the whole cowl is just too close to the driver...dashboard, windshield, etc. It's not a car I could drive for a very long distance, at least not comfortably.

But, if you're more average in the inseam, or don't have to drive long distances, I imagine they were great cars. I love the looks of them. Handling on them may be floaty by today's standards, but I'd guess they were pretty good for the time. They were trying to shoot for a more "European" buyer. And, if you trace it back far enough, they were related to the Camaro/Firebird.

texases

On Ebay most of that gen Sevilles get bid up to around $5k (average), maybe $10k at the most if they're REAL clean. One did get bid to $18k with 32k miles, but that was the odd one out. Only 2 bids on it, makes you wonder...

Mr_Shiftright

It's an old lady's car (no sexism intended....that was the marketing scheme for the car anyway), and so you can find low mileage examples all over the West coast.

xwesx

@Mr_Shiftright said:
What would you pay for such a car?

Well, I paid $500 for my '69 Chevy C20, which was in nearly the same condition as that (well, 28,000 more miles, but all in one year and then it just sat, and sat, and sat). So, adjusting for inflation, I'd say $1,000. Yeah, I'd pay $1,000 for it.

andre1969

I wonder how hard it would be to swap the fuel injection in that 350 for a 4-bbl carb, which is what most of those Olds 350's had.

stickguy

Or drop in a crate 350 and melt the rear tires!

texases

Part of the attraction of those Sevilles to me was the FI, so I'd probably just spend $5k for a clean running version.

explorerx4

Trip Computer $920! It had a pretty easy life

Mr_Shiftright

A little light I think. I bet $3500 would take it.

xwesx

@Mr_Shiftright said:
A little light I think. I bet $3500 would take it.

Well, I can see that, assuming it was prepped a little bit to sit there that long. For example, if it had a battery in it that split and spilled its guts inside the engine bay, it has a little less going for it. Even at $3,500, though, a person wouldn't feel bad about adding some miles to that odometer.

isellhondas

@Mr_Shiftright said:
What would you pay for such a car?

Oh, I would probably have my hand in the air for 2-3 grand and I would probably get outbid.

Or I could simply take a look in person and pass on it.

Seals, gaskets, hoses etc probably all bad. Probably frozen calipers etc.

From the picture, it looks like it wasn't pickled before it got parked.

I wonder what the story behind it is?

Mr_Shiftright

the story is the owner had another Seville, and liked the car so much, that when he heard that 1979 was going to be the last year for this model, he bought a second one. Unfortunately, his first one lasted much longer than he thought it might, and then the "new" one went dead, got buried in the back of a large garage, blocked by other cars and junk, then it slowly got dirty and unattractive, and so on and so on. Basically, it was just forgotten.

andre1969

I find that really intriguing, that somebody would buy Cadillac's flagship and simply put it away and forget about it! The base price of a '79 Seville was $16,224. And I imagine that, even though it was a Cadillac, it was still easy to option them up even higher. If you had just put that money into US savings bonds in 1979, they would have been worth about $95,000 when they hit final maturity in 2009.

And then, if you had sunk that money into an S&P500 index fund, in 2009, it would easily be worth $200-$300K today (2009 was a very volatile year, so what time of the year you invested would have made a pretty big difference).

Simply adjusting for inflation, that $16,224 Seville would MSRP for about $53,241 in 2014 dollars. So, the original owner must have been in pretty good shape financially to literally park what amounts to over $50K in today's dollars, and forget about it.

I wonder how many cars eventually appreciate back to their inflation-adjusted MSRP's, as they age? Probably not too many, I'd guess. And I'd imagine most cars from the 70's and newer will have trouble appreciating back even to their original, raw MSRP.

This kind of stuff always intrigues me, whenever I hear of ultra-low mileage cars. Every once in awhile, some really nice low-mileage late 70's/early 80's car will show up at Carlisle, with an overly optimistic price attached. For instance, nobody is going to pay $11,000 for a 1981 Skylark, even if it looks brand new and only has 9,000 miles on it. As for this Seville though, would the low miles even add anything to the price, given the condition? Usually low-mileage cars are worth more BECAUSE they're in such great condition, but in this case, you could probably go find one with 100,000 miles or more that looks much more presentable and would need less work.

lemko

That Seville in that damp underground garage makes me think too much of the Tulsa 1957 Plymouth. Though it wasn't submerged in groundwater as was that Plymouth, all that dampness does nasty things to a car. The Tulsa Plymouth only had 3 miles on it. In this case, low miles means squat. Even if the car fired right up, one probably couldn't drive the car because the moldy interior smell would get to them.

Mr_Shiftright

How about the Model A Ford I found there? What might that be worth? It's all there, the vinyl roof is missing, engine frozen: No rust in body except for fist sized hole under rumble seat.

Mr_Shiftright

Where the PCM?

isellhondas

Yeah, mold could be a REAL problem in that Seville.

I'm with Andre. I think 7500.00 would buy a very nice one with around 100K. That would be a wiser move, I think yet part of me is itching to bring the yellow one back to life!

Model A's are funny and there were so many made that they don't bring they big money that one would think. You can't drive them on the freeway and they are crude, unsafe cars to drive. Still, they have a certain charm and people can't help but smile when they see one.

As far as that Model A? 3500.00?

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, maybe $3500 on a good day with a generous heart.

It depends where the car is. On the west coast, a rust-free body is not such a big deal. In the Midwest, a rust-free Model A is like a special place where a miracle occurred, where you bring the sick to be healed.

I've seen worse for sale in Hemmings for $5000 asking, but that makes no sense to me, as you can buy a very nice example of this car for $12,500 and a show winner for $17.5K.

How could you possibly turn this bucket of bolts into a show winner for an additional $14,000? Not going to happen.

Old cars are funny that way. If you want to be perfectly rational about it, that Seville and that Model A are worth absolutely nothing but a few hundred dollars in parts. And if you include the expense to transport the car, then they are probably worth nothing at all---local scrap prices.

But alas, the old car hobby is not rational! Nor is love, nor is the stock market.

andre1969

One car I always regret letting get away was a 1980 New Yorker in "nightwatch" blue that I saw at the Carlisle Mopar show back in 2006. It only had 34,000 miles on it, and I think they were asking $4295. In trolling through my old albums, I found this pic of it...

At the time though, it just wasn't in the budget. Also, I just couldn't get over the engine...a 318-2bbl that was choked down to 120 hp. In contrast, the two New Yorkers I currently own had 360-2bbls with 150 hp. Sounds like a petty difference by today's standards, when cars with 300+ hp are so common, but in those days, that was a pretty big difference in hp, not to mention the torque difference was probably pretty big. Motortrend timed an '80 New Yorker at 0-60 in 14.1 seconds. I'd guess one of my 360's would do around 11-11.5. Both are slow, but to me, that's still the difference between "borderline mediocre" and "damn near dangerous".

A year later, I ended up buying my Nightwatch blue '79 New Yorker, for $500. And I paid $900 for my '79 5th Ave. But, it would take a LOT more than $4295 to get either of those cars looking like that '80 I saw at Carlisle!

Then again, that '80 was almost "too nice" for my tastes. With the two New Yorkers I currently have, I'm not going to have a fit if one gets a parking lot ding. Or if someone eats in the car. Or if a bird craps on it and I don't wipe it off right away. With that '80 though, I think I'd worry about every little thing that could possibly happen to it.

Oh, here's a car Lemko will recognize, even though I took the pic back in 2006:

This car is a 1978 Newport 2-door hardtop that was for sale. It's actually not a bad looking car overall, and IIRC this car even has the optional 440, rather than the more common 400. However, this car has been showing up at every Mopar show since then, as well as some of the spring and fall swap meets. After 8 years, if not more, it STILL hasn't sold. The seller has also been slowly jacking the price up. I forget how much he wanted way back in 2006, but the last this past July, I think he was trying for $6995! Oh, and in the intervening years, that vinyl roof has been painted white, and is definitely showing its age. It really needs to be replaced. How much would that cost, maybe $500? Seems to me it would be worth it, to make the car more salable.

I'd be tempted, for maybe $2500 or so. IIRC, the body is rust free, although that green paint is a repaint, and it's been fading over time. It's also pretty basic, with crank windows and such. Most people who lust after these big barges want them as hedonistic as they can get them...New Yorker Broughams, Electra 225 Park Avenues, Ninety Eight Regency Brougham LS, Cadillacs, Lincolns, etc. Even in the lower ranks, people are going to want the fully-loaded Bonneville or Caprice instead of the strippo Catalina or Impala.

isellhondas

It makes real sense to keep jacking up the price when the car isn't selling!

andre1969

And the funny thing is, this seller isn't just one of those old guys who doesn't want to sell it but, to please the wife, he "tries" to sell it, at an over-inflated price, and then feigns disappointment when it doesn't sell. This guy is actually a used car dealer! Years ago, there was a '57 Chrysler Saratoga that I probably saw for a good 6-7 years at Carlisle, always in the same spot, and always for sale. I think it finally quit showing up in 2002 or so. Come to think of it, it might have been the same dealer...that was a long time ago, but I think it was in the same spot as this '78 Newport. And those sellers tend to rent the same spots, year after year.

For the longest time, there was this gaudy "Pharoah's Gold" '74 Cadillac Sedan DeVille that regularly showed up at another show we go to, in Macungie, PA. I first saw it in 2002. The last time I remember seeing it was 2007. Lemko described it best, as sort of the color of those carrots that used to come with the really cheap TV dinners back in the 70's. It was actually priced semi-reasonably, peaking out around $5995 I think. It actually was a nice car...nicer than that '78 Newport. But good lord, that color!

ab348

@andre1969 said:

I'd be tempted, for maybe $2500 or so. IIRC, the body is rust free, although that green paint is a repaint, and it's been fading over time. It's also pretty basic, with crank windows and such.

I wouldn't touch it. Those '78 Formals have a one-year-only windshield wiper cam that self-destructs and is made from unobtainium. Nothing crosses over to that part, there is no NOS inventory, and nobody makes a reproduction that works. If the wipers don't work, that's probably why.

andre1969

That's odd, that Mopar would change the part for the 1978 model year, rather than using the same thing from '74-78. But, I wouldn't put it past them. I remember years ago, in the junkyard, a friend of mine bought some windshield wiper arms off a '56 Desoto, thinking he could use them as a spare for his '55 Fireflite Coronado. Well, damn if Mopar didn't change those arms for '56, even though it's the same damn car, just with a mild face and tail-lift!

Supposedly, the windshield wiper mechanism I the '79-81 R-body is hard to find parts for, as well. About 10 years ago, the wipers in my '79 5th Ave quit working. I had the mechanic mess around with it, and he got them to more or less work again, but he couldn't find any parts. Sometimes they'll park in the upright position, sort of like the later, aero Ford Panthers.

ab348

Apparently Chrysler made a lot of changes to the '78 Formals, to things like the inner door structures, sheetmetal thickness, etc, in an effort to reduce weight. Maybe they started doing all this before deciding to cancel production.

hpmctorque

@isellhondas said:

I agree that the story behind that Seville would be interesting. That's the first question that came to mind. Was the owner so excited about his/her new car that he/she croaked, or was the owner's intention to store it, for whatever purpose? We'll never know.

Mr_Shiftright

I think the purpose was to put it into service when the 1st Seville wore out. Not sure why that didn't happen.

lemko

@andre1969 said:
That's odd, that Mopar would change the part for the 1978 model year, rather than using the same thing from '74-78. But, I wouldn't put it past them. I remember years ago, in the junkyard, a friend of mine bought some windshield wiper arms off a '56 Desoto, thinking he could use them as a spare for his '55 Fireflite Coronado. Well, damn if Mopar didn't change those arms for '56, even though it's the same damn car, just with a mild face and tail-lift!

Supposedly, the windshield wiper mechanism I the '79-81 R-body is hard to find parts for, as well. About 10 years ago, the wipers in my '79 5th Ave quit working. I had the mechanic mess around with it, and he got them to more or less work again, but he couldn't find any parts. Sometimes they'll park in the upright position, sort of like the later, aero Ford Panthers.

I did have problems with the wipers on my 2005 Mercury Grand Marquis. Had to change out the wiper motor twice. The problem I had wasn't just the wipers parking in the "up" position, but mysteriously coming on by themselves at odd times. It would be beautiful sunny day and my wipers would suddenly come on in the fast position. Not only would I look like a knucklehead to passersby, but risked destroying the blades and scratching the windshield. I temporarily solved the problem by yanking the fuse.

andre1969

On my 5th Avenue, they quit working completely, but IIRC, the whole thing came loose. You could grab one wiper, and move it, and it would make the other one move as well. The shop was able to mostly fix it, but sometimes when the wipers are on the delay setting, if I have to use the turn signal, it makes them go into the regular "low" speed.

Oh, almost forgot, on my blue New Yorker, which is a comparative stripper, and doesn't have delay wipers, something ended up coming loose, and only the driver's side wiper works. I haven't bothered to get it checked out...one day! I usually only drive these cars on nice days, but there's always the chance of getting caught in a sudden rain.

explorerx4

The Seville was originally supposed to be featured in a series called 'The Cadillac Chiropractor', but it just didn't sound quite right.

stickguy

ha. I had the same thought about Lincoln Lawyer.

hpmctorque

andre1969 Posts: 21,978
September 3 edited September 3

One car I always regret letting get away was a 1980 New Yorker in "nightwatch" blue that I saw at the Carlisle Mopar show back in 2006...>

This car is a 1978 Newport 2-door hardtop that was for sale. It's actually not a bad looking car overall...>

I like the '74-'78 Mopar large bodies, as well as the generations of your NYers. Too bad the early one with lean burn ran so poorly, but styling wise I preferred them to their GM and Ford counterparts.

andre1969

@hpmctorque said:
I like the '74-'78 Mopar large bodies, as well as the generations of your NYers. Too bad the early one with lean burn ran so poorly, but styling wise I preferred them to their GM and Ford counterparts.

I thought they were really handsome as well, but unfortunately, they had a bit of a "corporate" look to them. In 1974, the Fury and Monaco just didn't seem different enough from each other, even though, IIRC, most of the sheetmetal was different. They tried to switch it up a bit in 1975 though, with the Gran Fury Brougham, which went to a more pretentious, stand-up grille, and large single headlights with a tall vertical turn signal mounted just inboard. And then at Dodge, there was the Royal Monaco Brougham, which had hidden headlights, and was pretty much immortalized on the opening credits of "Hill Street Blues".

One thing I appreciate about them is that they kept hardtops around right up through the end in 1978. Now, Dodge and Plymouth did drop their 4-door hardtops after 1975, although the hardtop coupes stayed in place through their demise in 1977. The Newport and New Yorker held on through 1978, and offered a hardtop sedan and coupe right up through the end.

However, in those years, most 2-door versions of the Newports and New Yorkers, and even the Gran Fury and Royal Monaco in its later years, had optional roof packages that gave them landau roofs and opera windows. The true hardtop coupes became rarer in later years, as the personal luxury look became all the rage.

Here's one interesting tidbit about the 2-door models. On the Chrysler New Yorkers at least, if you bought a 2-door model and got the landau roof option, they actually left all the mechanical stuff to make the back windows roll down...even the motors, if you got power windows (maybe power windows were standard on a New Yorker by this time?). However, they removed the rear window switches, and on the driver's door put a master panel with two switches rather than four. But apparently, all the wiring and such is still there. If you get a master switch with four switches, and wire it up, you can make those back windows roll down again. There's a guy with a New Yorker of that vintage (1975 I want to say) that shows up at the Carlisle Mopar show pretty regularly, and he wired his up. That's how I learned about it.

At the fall Carlisle swap meet last year, there was a '77 Gran Fury hardtop coupe for sale, in a light blue. Fairly base model, with crank windows. I was kinda tempted. I know it's not a valuable, sought-after car, but I thought it was kinda cool, simply for the rarity factor. I can't remember the last time I saw one.

I sat behind the wheel of it, out of curiosity, to see how it would compare to something like a '71-76 GM B-body. Compared to them, it seemed like the Gran Fury had a bit more legroom, but less interior height. The seat was lower to the floor though, so I had enough headroom. It's been ages since I've sat in a comparable Ford model, so I don't know how they'd stack up. The last big Ford product I was in was a '78 Mark V, but that's a different design.

hpmctorque

@andre1969 said:

I thought they were really handsome as well, but unfortunately, they had a bit of a "corporate" look to them...>

Your recollection of details is remarkable, andre. You're the unchallenged collector Mopar guru on these discussions.

lemko

Speaking of the Grand Fury, I have a Matchbox SuperKings diecast of a Gran Fury taxi. Mine is in a bit better condition than this one.

stever

Now here's a Fury, "Made Especially for Errol Flynn."

What would be a estimated price on a 1959 Plymouth Fury?

andre1969

I'll have to dig my old Matchbox cars out sometime. IIRC, I have a couple of Gran Fury police cars. Also, a police car that managed to look like a combination of a Gran Torino and a "New, Small Fury"...that one may have been HotWheels, though.

I also remember getting a "Dukes of Hazzard" set of Matchbox-sized cars that was put out by Ertl. It came with the General Lee, Boss Hogg's Cadillac, and two police cars. Oddly though, the police cars were 1980 Pontiac Bonnevilles, something better suited to "Smokey and the Bandit II", than the Dukes!

Mr_Shiftright

Well someday offered $4500 cash for that low mileage moldy Seville and they turned it down. I guess it will now rot down there. I'm done with trying to find a home for it.

isellhondas

Wow!

I think I would have taken that 4500.00 and run like a thief in the night!

ab348

Holy Moldy!

Mr_Shiftright

I have no idea what's going on. Could be Hoarder's Syndrome, which is very difficult to deal with. But I'm not going to bring people in from my network just so they can waste their time bidding on cars that are impossible to buy.

andre1969

@Mr_Shiftright said:
I have no idea what's going on. Could be Hoarder's Syndrome, which is very difficult to deal with. But I'm not going to bring people in from my network just so they can waste their time bidding on cars that are impossible to buy.

>

That's definitely interesting. Kinda funny to think that these people were rich enough to buy two Sevilles at once in 1979, and yet now they want to squabble over a few thousand bucks.

I can understand Hoarder's Syndrome coming into play IF you have the space to store something. I have a bunch of stuff hoarded, some of it that's probably useless, simply because I have the place to put it. For instance, I have an old 32" tube tv that I didn't need anymore, and didn't feel like trying to sell it, or lug it off to donate it (dunno if Goodwill or other charities will even take a tube tv anymore). So for several years it just sat around in my spare room. Finally got tired of looking at it, so I lugged it over to my grandmother's house across the street, and shoved it in a big storage room that Granddad had built off the side of the garage back in the early 80's. I'm not hurting for money, and it's not in the way. Heck, I totally forgot about it until, the other day, I had to do in that storage room for something and saw it. Also found an extra bumper for a '67-69 Dart...something I don't need anymore. And an 8.75 Suregrip gearset I once intended to put in my '68 Dart, but never got around to. Forget what ratio it is...3.55:1 I think.

Grandmom's house was pretty much designed for hoarders. I have stuff there, so does my Mom, and my uncle. I have a feeling that when she dies and we sell the house, we're gonna be purging a LOT of junk!

Does the owner of this Seville also own the garage space that it's being stored in, or are they paying a rental on it? Either way, it seems like it's just a waste. The car is only going to get worse with age, and if they're paying to store it, it's just wasting money.

stever

You don't own stuff, stuff owns you.

Cars are about the worst.

isellhondas

A neighbor recently had a garage sale and one of the items was a rarely used 32 inch TV. The big, old type. You would THINK someone would buy it for 20.00? Nope! she ended up giving it away.

ab348

@isellhondas said:
A neighbor recently had a garage sale and one of the items was a rarely used 32 inch TV. The big, old type. You would THINK someone would buy it for 20.00? Nope! she ended up giving it away.

Around here you can't even put those on the curb any more to let the garbage truck take it. Nope, they have to go to an electronics recycling facility of which there are but a handful - same applies to old computers, stereos, monitors, you name it. Those big old tube TVs are heavy and you need a truck to move them a lot of the time. The recycling thing is a real pain. Business opportunity for someone I suspect.