Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

The irony is that the storage environment for the 4 cars I saw is so hostile that over time the value of the cars will decrease, not increase. I don't think the owner is particularly attached to the cars--I think they hold somewhat unpleasant memories of a life almost over--it's an emotional thing. So I have some sympathy for him and the situation, to be sure.

So someday in the near future the relatives will start fighting over these cars, with dreams of Barrett-Jackson gold dancing in their heads, and very little actual information in their hands, and the whole "old car circus" will start up again, with Shifty's careful value reports buried in a file somewhere.

And so it goes....I've seen this so many times before!

I don't see my job as predicting what some drunk might pay for an old car in a moment of madness....my job is to give a sober view of the "real dollar" market....a value trend over time. What happens in one outlier sale is not my concern.

gsemike

@isellhondas said:
A neighbor recently had a garage sale and one of the items was a rarely used 32 inch TV. The big, old type. You would THINK someone would buy it for 20.00? Nope! she ended up giving it away.

I just hit a garage sale and the old timer's front lawn looked like a garden of tube TVs. Guy was setting prices based on what he paid for the TVs years ago. He wanted $200 for a 36 inch that he paid over 400. I politely declined

texases

@gsemike said:
I just hit a garage sale and the old timer's front lawn looked like a garden of tube TVs. Guy was setting prices based on what he paid for the TVs years ago. He wanted $200 for a 36 inch that he paid over 400. I politely declined

$200 will buy a nice flat screen these days. Big old tubes are worse than worthless, they're hard to even throw away, and to use them requires an adaptor for the digital-only signals now the norm.

p.s. - anyone want a like new Phillips 30"....

xwesx

@andre1969 said:
For instance, I have an old 32" tube tv that I didn't need anymore, and didn't feel like trying to sell it, or lug it off to donate it (dunno if Goodwill or other charities will even take a tube tv anymore).

It's funny that people are referring to CRT televisions as "tube TVs" now. Back in the 90s, a "tube TV" was one that used vacuum tubes rather than solid state electronics. If it makes anyone feel any better, I still use my 32" "tube TV" as our sole television. Not that it gets used often, which is probably why we still have it after 18 years.

To its credit, though, it's hard to beat the picture quality of a Sony Trinitron. The new LED flat screens are finally managing to do it, but it's a recent thing, for sure. Anything older than 2012 definitely had the advantage of size, but that's about it.

As for that Caddy, hey, if the guy wants to keep it, let him keep it! You did get paid for that appraisal, right, Shifty?

ab348

@Mr_Shiftright said:
The irony is that the storage environment for the 4 cars I saw is so hostile that over time the value of the cars will decrease, not increase. I don't think the owner is particularly attached to the cars--I think they hold somewhat unpleasant memories of a life almost over--it's an emotional thing. So I have some sympathy for him and the situation, to be sure.

So someday in the near future the relatives will start fighting over these cars, with dreams of Barrett-Jackson gold dancing in their heads, and very little actual information in their hands, and the whole "old car circus" will start up again, with Shifty's careful value reports buried in a file somewhere.

And so it goes....I've seen this so many times before!

Recent real-life example on a Chrysler C-body forum. A 1970 Dodge Polara convertible appears for sale at $200,000. Everyone thinks it's a typo. The nicest one in the world will bring $15K on a good day. There is a guy who owns one who expert on these and is building a registry of all known such models, and it is not too far away. So he gets into his own '70 Polara convertible drives a few hours to see it.

Car has not been driven since the mid-80s and is a pretty basic model, not many options. Solid and rust free, but dusty, dirty and needs a complete going-over. It may run but nobody knows for sure. Was son's car, he had some challenges, lost interest, whatever. Stored it in parents garage. Parents are now well in their 80s, want it gone, but have this figure stuck in their heads as to its value. Visitor tried to explain to them what the market was. The old folks would not listen. That car is going to be for sale forever.

andre1969

@ab348 said:
Around here you can't even put those on the curb any more to let the garbage truck take it. Nope, they have to go to an electronics recycling facility of which there are but a handful - same applies to old computers, stereos, monitors, you name it. Those big old tube TVs are heavy and you need a truck to move them a lot of the time. The recycling thing is a real pain. Business opportunity for someone I suspect.

>

That 32" tube tv I put over in Grandmom's storage room was around 110 lb, and bulky, too, so it wasn't like just lifting a barbell with 110" of weight on it. I forget how I got it down the stairs by myself, but somehow I managed it. And, I remember putting it in the back of the Silverado and driving it over to Grandmom's.

In Maryland, I think it might vary by county, but in my county, if you call for a special bulky trash pickup, they'll still take old tv's, monitors, and other electronics. But, it's still a pretty common sight to see them dumped along the side of the road.

Now that I think about it, between my house and Grandmom's, there are something like SIX tube tv's sitting around, no longer getting used. One of them is my old 19" Toshiba "portable" that I bought as a kid, in 1983. Still probably worthless. However, one of the tv's out in my garage dates back to the late 1940's or early 50's...I imagine that might be worth something.

Next time I do a bulk trash pickup, I might take advantage of it and add some of those tube tv's to the pile.

andre1969

@Mr_Shiftright said:
The irony is that the storage environment for the 4 cars I saw is so hostile that over time the value of the cars will decrease, not increase.

>

What were the other three cars in that garage, in addition to the Seville? Anything of interest? Or was the Seville the pick of the litter?

texases

"However, one of the tv's out in my garage dates back to the late 1940's or early 50's...I imagine that might be worth something."

Maybe the cabinet, or maybe some of the (small) tubes inside...

lemko

@Mr_Shiftright said:
I have no idea what's going on. Could be Hoarder's Syndrome, which is very difficult to deal with. But I'm not going to bring people in from my network just so they can waste their time bidding on cars that are impossible to buy.

There's some [non-permissible content removed] who's paying a self-storgage place $200 each a month to have a couple Cadillacs of my Brougham's vintage rust and burn up in the elements. They've been sitting outside for at least five years and haven't been moved in all that time. A co-worker of mine stores his car there and I had him ask the owner of the self-storage place about those cars because I sure could use some of the parts off them. The self-storage owner talked to the cars' owner and this cretin actually believes those cars that have been rotting in all kinds of weather will be "worth something." There was no talking sense to the guy.

lemko

@texases said:
"However, one of the tv's out in my garage dates back to the late 1940's or early 50's...I imagine that might be worth something."

Maybe the cabinet, or maybe some of the (small) tubes inside...

There is a small community that does collect vintage televisions.

texases

@lemko said:
There is a small community that does collect vintage televisions.

I never would have guessed, given the size of those things, the trouble keeping them working, and the superiority of the new stuff. Not like the "I like the sound of vinyl/the old speakers/tube amp" stereo collectors.

andre1969

@texases said:
I never would have guessed, given the size of those things, the trouble keeping them working, and the superiority of the new stuff. Not like the "I like the sound of vinyl/the old speakers/tube amp" stereo collectors.

On that subject, my grandmother has an old console stereo/record player/8-track from the 60's, sitting out on the enclosed front porch. My uncle wants to just throw it away. As far as I know, it still worked when he unplugged everything and moved it out of the way. I wanted to keep it around, for the nostalgia...I have fond memories of listening to old records and 8-tracks on it, including one 8-track that had the Exorcist soundrack on it.

But now, it's just sitting there, collecting dust. It has a bit of water damage to the wood finish. And there's a window a/c unit sitting on top of it, one of those big, heavy, 220V units that takes two men to lift, unless herniated discs are your thing. There's also one of those really, REALLY old wooden radios sitting in my old room upstairs at Grandma's house...like the kind the Waltons used to sit around in the 70's to listen to Roosevelt and his "Fireside Chats"

Y'know, with all this talk of hoarding, and letting things sit and deteriorate, I think I'm going to go home after work and run a few of my old cars around the block. Been awhile since some of them have been exercised!

isellhondas

A few years ago, the people across the street but a BIG old television on the sidewalk in front of their house and taped a "FREE" sign to it.

Around 2:00 in the morning we were sound asleep with our upper story bedroom window open which faces the street when we heard this LOUD WOOOOOM!!

Someone had driven by and shot the picture tube with must have been a pellet gun.

I helped the neighbor haul it to the dump the next morning.

andre1969

@lemko said:
There's some [non-permissible content removed] who's paying a self-storgage place $200 each a month to have a couple Cadillacs of my Brougham's vintage rust and burn up in the elements.

>

Wow, $200 a month, PER CAR, just for an outdoor parking spot? I always wondered what the going rate was, for a garage space, to store a car. I think my buddy with the Mark V only pays about $50 per month, but he's keeping it at a friend's house.

When I had my garage built, I had used a guess of $100 per month, per car, to see when I would break even. It's a 4-car garage (even if there's only 3 cars and a bunch of junk in there), so I figured at that rate, it was "worth" about $4800 per year (12 months x 4 spaces). I've had it for about 9 years now (they broke ground on it in September 2005), so I figure at this point, it's saved me a potential ~$43000 in storage costs! In comparison, it cost $30,000 to build.

isellhondas

"Non -permissible content? Andre??

That just can't be!

Oh, never mind it was lemko!

stever

I guess our automated spam/profanity filter doesn't like some Yiddish words.

omarman

@ab348 said:
A 1970 Dodge Polara convertible appears for sale at $200,000. Everyone thinks it's a typo.

I googled 1970 polara convertible $200,000 and found this on autotrader. Maybe seller was told a story by his son many years ago? "Let me park this rare gem in your garage pop and if someone offers 200 grand, then I'll split it with you!"

ab348

Yes, that's the one. Sad.

fintail

Someone at Matchbox must have liked big 70s Mopars - they made that Fury both in Superfast and Super Kings size, and made a wagon, too:

They also made a Lincoln Mark V.

And yes, old TVs are a thing for some collectors. Some old sets are pretty cool, and most aren't too expensive - just bulky. Not much can be done with them now, as analog is gone.

Here's a vintage loving Youtube user who has a nice collection, and a couple of nice old cars too

@andre1969 said:

I'll have to dig my old Matchbox cars out sometime. IIRC, I have a couple of Gran Fury police cars. Also, a police car that managed to look like a combination of a Gran Torino and a "New, Small Fury"...that one may have been HotWheels, though.

I also remember getting a "Dukes of Hazzard" set of Matchbox-sized cars that was put out by Ertl. It came with the General Lee, Boss Hogg's Cadillac, and two police cars. Oddly though, the police cars were 1980 Pontiac Bonnevilles, something better suited to "Smokey and the Bandit II", than the Dukes!

Mr_Shiftright

@andre1969‌

There was a Mercedes 230SL, dirty, checked paint, rust in floor, stick shift, two tops, all there, about a 4+/ #3 minus condition, not run in 5-6 years. I valued it at about $12,500

There was a 1930 Ford Model A business coupe, pretty solid, all assembled, driven into a space many years ago, all steel, needed everything, vinyl roof is gone, engine is stuck, paint shot, upholstery shot, rust hole in rumble seat floor, chrome/nickel is pitted, tires still hold air. Might run again---I valued this at $3,500

There was a 2000 Jaguar S-Type 4.0, front end damage, ABS lights on, Traction Contol light on, door ajar light on, leaking valve cover gasket or other oil leak, cracked seat leather, scrape on left side, ding in hood, 92,000 miles---I valued this at $1500.

andre1969

@Mr_Shiftright said:

There was a 1930 Ford Model A business coupe, pretty solid, all assembled, driven into a space many years ago, all steel, needed everything, vinyl roof is gone, engine is stuck, paint shot, upholstery shot, rust hole in rumble seat floor, chrome/nickel is pitted, tires still hold air. Might run again---I valued this at $3,500

>

Oh, was that the same Model A that you had posted the pics of? I guess I didn't make the connection. I think it's a little extra-sad to think of something like that Model A survived for so long, without being discarded, only to end up in that kind of condition. Hope all of those cars end up going to a good home, or at least the useable parts get salvaged. Although I guess a 2000 S-type is nothing to get excited about. One of my co-workers, a long-time Lincoln fan had the 2000 Lincoln LS version of that car, and it was a big enough turd that it chased him off to Acura, and he never looked back. It also scared him enough to never want to keep a car past 50,000 miles or so, so these days he just leases. He drives a lot though, so I don't know if he works that into the lease deal, or just coughs the over-mileage fee at the end.

Mr_Shiftright

Personally I'd just junk the Jaguar at this point. If the ABS turned out to be the Electronic Brake module, that's $3,400 bucks.

fintail

My friend's dad finally put a realistic price on his old Lincoln - it might sell this time.

stever

High desert offerings:

Nice Karman Ghia.

1960 TRIUMPH TR3A - $15500

1969 MORRIS MINOR WOODIE - $10200

Baby Blue

Only 200k and cheap - my color combo too. 1991 mazda miata MX5 - $3000

Someone in California is searching for old VW Vans. I never saw those kinds of ads in the UP.

Mr_Shiftright

The Lincoln should sell at that price.
--
Triumph Pricing is fair

69 Morris Minor--nobody wants RHD-- try half that price

The Mercedes 280SE looks pretty nice, with some good improvements--- although this mention of an "exhaust leak" is somewhat scary. Hope it's not the CAT.

texases

What's with the air cleaner on the 280SE?
Did that year have the thermal reactors in the engine compartment?

Mr_Shiftright

I don't THINK there are thermal reactors in '73. I didn't think they even MADE a '72 280SE 4.5. The car was probably built in 1972.

fintail

I've seen very late production W108s titled as 1973 in the US, but I am 100% certain they were built in 1972 - W116 production was in full swing in 1973. 108s are probably the classiest car you can get for the money, but I like the 6s more than the 8s. That car looks good for a labor of love project, but you can get really immaculate ones for 10K.

Ghia looks cool, needs a lot more info in the ad. The Lincoln ad is funny - they aren't really "moving", and being antique dealers, they are are willing to negotiate - I bet he'd take $3250 for it. I think the top damage is due to damp climate rather than sun - the car usually sits in one of those portable tent garage things, but the ground is also kept dry, and it has no rust.

stever

@fintail said:

Ghia looks cool, needs a lot more info in the ad.

Yeah, like how hard would it be to get rid of the EV conversion and stick a reman in it.

But who knows, could be a fun and torquey in-town cruiser.

isellhondas

@fintail said:
My friend's dad finally put a realistic price on his old Lincoln - it might sell this time.

Yeah, that Lincoln MIGHT sell if the right buyer comes along.

Not the best color combo.

Mr_Shiftright

The problem is finding room for it. I"m not sure what you actually DO with a car like that in the world of 2014.

andre1969

@Mr_Shiftright said:
The problem is finding room for it. I"m not sure what you actually DO with a car like that in the world of

Heck, if it was more local, I'd almost be tempted. We always have the GM and Mopar shows at Carlisle covered, but now that Lemko is sans Grand Marquis, we don't have anything to put in the Ford show! My friend with the '78 Mark V Diamond Jubilee usually puts his car in the show, though.

But, I also don't have anyplace to put it. And that car looks too nice to stay outside.

Mr_Shiftright

Well that's what I mean---that car would really impact most garages.

It could live outside, with a little extra care. It's not like it's ever going to be worth very much. It could survive under a carport for instance.

andre1969

@Mr_Shiftright said:
Well that's what I mean---that car would really impact most garages.

It could live outside, with a little extra care. It's not like it's ever going to be worth very much. It could survive under a carport for instance.

>

When I bought my condo back in 1994, it came with a garage. However, the agent didn't have a key to the garage, so she couldn't open it up to show it to me. I wrote an offer on it with one of the contingencies "Garage must be large enough to house a 1957 DeSoto Firedome!"

Now, the DeSoto is "only" 218" long...by the 1970's many midsized cars were bigger than that. But, in house hunting, I had found some pretty small garages. And I'd seen some newer homes, mainly townhouses, where a corner would be cut out of the garage, so it might be long enough at its deepest point, but I still wouldn't be able to get the car in there.

Anyway, I was in luck, as the garage was a bit over 20 feet deep. But only about 10 feet wide, so getting a full-sized 2-door car in there was a bit of a chore. I had to park close on the passenger side to get the driver's door comfortably open. I used to switch up between having the DeSoto in there, and the Catalina at my grandmother's, and vice versa. I had my '79 5th Ave in there a couple times, and even though that car is longer overall, thanks to the 5 mph bumpers (221" vs 218 for the DeSoto and 215 for the Catalina), and it was a breeze, in comparison. The 5th Ave is a couple inches narrower, enough to make a difference, but being a 4-door car, with shorter doors, probably helped as well.

I think one of those big Lincolns is something like 233" long?

And yeah, I realize that one of these will never be worth a whole lot. But, if I wanted one, and found one that was that nice, I'd want it to stay that way!

isellhondas

In Seattle in the older neighborhoods a lot of hoses have tiny one car garages along with some pretty steep driveways. I suppose a Model A would probably fit but a Buick or Cadillac from that era, no way!

fintail

I call those "Model T garages". My great-grandmother lived in a 1920s bungalow style house near Green Lake, it had a Model T garage. They moved into the house in the late 40s - even by then, modern cars wouldn't fit. It was never used as a garage, and I think the new owner of the house tore it down, as it was neglected. Funny thing, my grandmother is the original owner of an early 60s style rambler, with a "2 car" garage - but I think one of those cars was meant to be a compact for wifey - I don't think two barges of that era could fit, without dinged doors anyway.

I lived in a 20s era brick tudor style house when I was a kid, a house that set on an elevated lot and had a garage underneath, accessed by a narrow driveway with brick and cement walls on the side. There's no way my mom's old T-Bird would fit in that, even the Horizon would have been a tight fit. My parents always parked on the street.

@isellhondas said:
In Seattle in the older neighborhoods a lot of hoses have tiny one car garages along with some pretty steep driveways. I suppose a Model A would probably fit but a Buick or Cadillac from that era, no way!

andre1969

Most of those old cars had tiny doors too, and narrow passenger cabins. So even if the car itself may have been fairly wide, a lot of that was because of the running boards. There's an old garage behind my house that's maybe 10 feet wide. I have no idea how old it is, but it has some license plates from the late 20's and early 30's nailed up on one of the walls. The house, at least the original part of it, was built in 1916, so it's probably no older than that.

berri

Forget the Model A's and the Lincoln land barges - when you get the 57 Desoto out you're going to get a lot of attention. Not just older guys, but lot's of younger people as well. A well preserved 57/58 Mopar is a show stopper buddy

Mr_Shiftright

That's true. If you see say a Chrysler 300 convertible in bright red bearing down on you, you're gonna notice it!

Those were the days when cars were essentially "dreams"---function was secondary. People WANTED to feel like jet pilots, not child transporters.

isellhondas

Yep, when I was a kid I could stand on a corner and call out the make and year of almost any car that rolled by. Sure can't do that today!

andre1969

@isellhondas said:
Yep, when I was a kid I could stand on a corner and call out the make and year of almost any car that rolled by. Sure can't do that today!

I could usually do that, as well, as a kid in the 70's. I think it started getting harder in the 1970's though, because the annual styling changes became less and less noticeable, and also not always annual. For instance, I can't tell the difference between a '68-72 Nova, or a '73-74, and with the '75-79, I only know the later models got square headlights, but can't remember which. It may have been just the upper level for '78 and then all of them for '79, but I can't remember.

I remember one morning, my neighbor took me to school, along with her son and daughter, who were a few years older than me. Her husband was into cars, and a big influence on me as a kid. Well, I remember that one morning, all three of us kids were rattling off car names, arguing with each other, and so on. Drove the mom crazy and she ended up telling us to knock it off!

I also remember thinking I was going to be able to stump the son with one vehicle we passed by all the time. It was an old school bus that was in the woods, and collapsing on itself. In front of it was an old car, like late 30's/early 40's, but I couldn't tell what it was. Well, he didn't know what the car was, but with the bus he rattled off "1959 GMC". I don't know if he really knew what it was, or if he just made that up. At this point it was just a bus body shell, with no front-end. I couldn't tell if it was off the frame or not, because it was so grown up. However, this kid was older than me, so may have known that bus when it was more complete. And, his father was into bigger rigs as well, having had a 1953 GMC medium duty truck, and a couple of school buses himself, to store car parts in, so it's possible his Dad knew about that bus for awhile, and told his son what it had been, as well.

Nowadays though, whenever I see another Buick Park Avenue, or Dodge Ram pickup, I can't tell the year. All I know is that with the Park Avenues, from 1997-2005, the base model usually had a stand-up hood ornament and the Ultra didn't. And in later years, they stuck portholes on the Ultra. With the 2009+ Dodge Ram, I think it was 2012 that they took the word "Dodge" off of it everywhere, except on the dashboard. And then for 2013 I believe it got a mildly upgraded interior, and they finally changed "Dodge" to "Ram" on the dash. Even though they were trying to drop the "Dodge" off of Rams in 2012, the registration and title still show it as a Dodge and not a Ram.

The one year/model of Dodge Intrepid I can always spot is the 2000 base model, and that's probably because I had one. Even though the car went basically unchanged from 1998-2004, there are a few tell-tale signs. For 2000, the base model went from 15" to 16" wheels, and got a new "Twisted Star" plastic hubcap. The 2001 model used the same hubcap, but that year they started calling the base model "SE" and putting a badge in the little blackout spacer trim just behind the window on the back door. For 2002, the car got new hubcaps, and I think they moved the "SE" badge to the trunk. The 2002 also got de-contented. It's not readily obvious from the outside, but from the rear, if you get a look underneath, the '98-01 had a rear sway bar that was visible, but that was taken off of the '02-04 SE.

stever

There was an older woman at the table next to us at lunch yesterday and I overheard her lament to her tablemates that she remembered when you would see a car coming down the road and you could tell what brand it was.

berri

I'm thinking this is a big reason why Chrysler and Jeep vehicles are pretty hot in sales right now. You can generally tell what they are.

lemko

@andre1969 said:

Heck, my Grandmom still has her console stereo from 1967 and it appears to be in decent condition. My parents had a Zenith console stereo they bought around 1970 that we kids were forbidden to touch. They still had it in the early 1980s until my brother decided to play Iron Maiden's "Number of the Beast" on it, cranked it up to 10, and blew out a speaker. It was then sold for $10 at a yard sale.

lemko

@andre1969 said:
And yeah, I realize that one of these will never be worth a whole lot. But, if I wanted one, and found one that was that nice, I'd want it to stay that way!

When I bought my house, it was also contingent on being able to park my Cadillac Brougham in there which is 221" long. It made it with about 6" to spare. I don't think my '75 Cadillac would've fit in there.

lemko

@andre1969 said:

I can tell a 1994 Cadillac DeVille from a 1995-96 because of one detail. The trunk lock had cover that was color-coded to the exterior finish on the 1994 model, but the 1995-96 used only a black surround with the lock exposed.

explorerx4

Interesting discussion regarding a fake Camaro. Lots of comments, so it goes all over the place.
Get it verified before you buy.

oppositelock.jalopnik.com/the-fake-z28-numbers-matching-1630580078

Mr_Shiftright

The article is a bit unclear. If the car didn't have the correct date-code on the engine, it could still be a real Z28. Without the correct type of engine, identifying a real 1st gen Z28 is very very difficult. The term "matching numbers" is, in fact, a rather vague notion----what "numbers", and matching to what other numbers?

stickguy

the VIN doesn't identify a Z28? Was that because it was an option package so not flagged in the VIN? I would think the engine at least would be, and only that model used the 302.

omarman

stickguy said:

the VIN doesn't identify a Z28?

Nothing about RPO Z28 would show up on the VIN plate but you're right about the DZ suffix stamped on a '69 Z28 302 engine. Also some late model year 1969 Norwood Camaro trim tags could have X-codes to identify Z28 trim but I don't think any Van Nuys assembled Camaro had that whether a Z28 or not. .

I think the most confusing thing about that article is that it was written from a lawyer's perspective. As posted before a "real" Z28 (with build sheet and all) could have had the engine or leaf springs replaced long ago which doesn't make it a "fake" Z28 just not original. The wording of the seller's ad is where you start swimming with the sharks.