Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Mr_Shiftright

Exactly. What it boils down to---especially with all the clever forgeries of VIN plates and data plates---is this: If you don't have the build sheet, you cannot claim the car original with 100% certainty. You can come up with a preponderance of circumstantial evidence (correct VIN, correct data plate, correct equipment, correct engine date and suffixing) and that is often good enough, but it's not surety.

fintail

New fintail news - delay is because the local shop that rebuilds generators had to have the armature (or plural?) sent out to be rewound, as apparently they didn't know of anyone who could do it locally. It might be back on the road tomorrow or Wednesday. That'll be over 3 weeks, I think.

fintail

Let's see where the bidding ends

stickguy

no rust, other than what you can see on the tailgate and on top of the headlight buckets?

fintail

The top of the lights being a key rust spot for fintails.

Maybe it's not rust, but from rodents or something?

stickguy said:

no rust, other than what you can see on the tailgate and on top of the headlight buckets?

Mr_Shiftright

I think whoever pays $20K for that car might be rather upset when its delivered Hard to say with these things, but the description does make you wonder.

fintail

It'll bring more than 20, too. They have a weird cult behind them.

It seems Universals weren't rustproofed well, if at all. I don't know if I've ever seen a rust-free one. I think the ad is making the car sound nicer than it is. Not that it's bad per se, but it's not a pristine no rust showpiece.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I think whoever pays $20K for that car might be rather upset when its delivered Hard to say with these things, but the description does make you wonder.

Mr_Shiftright

That's a lot of money for a pretty utilitarian-looking piece. You can buy some pretty nice Benzes for $25K, or even a restored Volvo 122 Amazon wagon, which is way more fun to drive, or a restored American wagon or sedan delivery if that's the type of vehicle you like. Or even a highline fintail with all the trimmings.

I'd chalk that wagon up as a bad investment that price point.

lemko

Something looks fishy about those quarter panels. They're probably 60% thirty-five year-old Bondo. I notice by the dealer plate this car came from Philly - not exactly the best climate for this era Benz. Just about every fintail I've seen around here is rotted on the top of the front fenders near the headlights.

andre1969

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's a lot of money for a pretty utilitarian-looking piece. You can buy some pretty nice Benzes for $25K, or even a restored Volvo 122 Amazon wagon, which is way more fun to drive, or a restored American wagon or sedan delivery if that's the type of vehicle you like. Or even a highline fintail with all the trimmings.

I'd chalk that wagon up as a bad investment that price point.

Would this simply be supply and demand at work, or just someone wants that car really, REALLY bad? Or maybe there's a shill in there. Fintail did say that these have a cult following.

There was a guy at work who had one of those Volvo 122 Amazon wagons a few years back. He had a short attention span though, and tended to change cars pretty quickly. He sold it and replaced it with a 1962 Ford Galaxie 4-door sedan. The 122 was kind of a cute little thing. Sort of reminded me of a scaled-down '55 Chrysler wagon with a '55-56 300/Imperial grille stuck on.

Wagons never really were my thing, although when i was a little kid I thought they were cool. Never had the desire to own one though. Although lately, I've been watching "CHiPs" on one of those retro stations (METV or Antenna; I forget, they tend to blur together for me), and throughout the first season, this really sharp Sequoia Green '72 Impala wagon has been popping up from time to time. Or, at least whatever the wagon version of the Impala was called (I think "Kingswood" equated to the Caprice?)

ab348

The wheels on the Chevy wagon definitely aren't factory.

The Universal wagon looks like it is maybe 10x overpriced to me. Cannot see the attraction.

fintail

You're probably right. It's pristine car money for a passable at best car.

For reference, several years ago, a local MB guy sold his 230 Universal, much nicer than this car, for about 20K. Prices are probably a little higher now, but his was west coast from new, almost always garaged, only the smallest amount of rust, and better cosmetics. You'd be lucky to get from this to his car with an extra 10-15K.

Mr_Shiftright said:

That's a lot of money for a pretty utilitarian-looking piece. You can buy some pretty nice Benzes for $25K, or even a restored Volvo 122 Amazon wagon, which is way more fun to drive, or a restored American wagon or sedan delivery if that's the type of vehicle you like. Or even a highline fintail with all the trimmings.

I'd chalk that wagon up as a bad investment that price point.

fintail

I'd imagine most fintails in the NE dissolved 35 or more years ago. Philly fintail is a scary thought.

lemko said:

Something looks fishy about those quarter panels. They're probably 60% thirty-five year-old Bondo. I notice by the dealer plate this car came from Philly - not exactly the best climate for this era Benz. Just about every fintail I've seen around here is rotted on the top of the front fenders near the headlights.

fintail

There's very low supply of Universals, I don't believe production of any model went out of the triple digits - for worldwide sales. There's a big cult in Europe for them, esp in Germany and Netherlands/Belgium.

The Volvo 122/Amazon series really does resemble a scaled down 55-56 Chrysler, the sedans and coupes are similar. The line was introduced in 1958, it might not be coincidence. I remember when I was a pre-driving teen, I really wanted this dark blue coupe that was in town - and in high school, I knew a guy who had a wagon. This was in the 90s, so old cars then too.

That clamshell Chevy wagon looks great, nice color and the wheels set it off. The clamshells are cool cars, very thin on the ground now due to demo derby demand, of course. I remember when I was a kid, I didn't like them due to the rear window/buttress look, but I've warmed up over time.




Would this simply be supply and demand at work, or just someone wants that car really, REALLY bad? Or maybe there's a shill in there. Fintail did say that these have a cult following.

There was a guy at work who had one of those Volvo 122 Amazon wagons a few years back. He had a short attention span though, and tended to change cars pretty quickly. He sold it and replaced it with a 1962 Ford Galaxie 4-door sedan. The 122 was kind of a cute little thing. Sort of reminded me of a scaled-down '55 Chrysler wagon with a '55-56 300/Imperial grille stuck on.

Wagons never really were my thing, although when i was a little kid I thought they were cool. Never had the desire to own one though. Although lately, I've been watching "CHiPs" on one of those retro stations (METV or Antenna; I forget, they tend to blur together for me), and throughout the first season, this really sharp Sequoia Green '72 Impala wagon has been popping up from time to time. Or, at least whatever the wagon version of the Impala was called (I think "Kingswood" equated to the Caprice?)

andre1969

ab348 said:

The wheels on the Chevy wagon definitely aren't factory.

The Universal wagon looks like it is maybe 10x overpriced to me. Cannot see the attraction.

Yeah, I noticed the wheels on that Chevy wagon when I caught that episode of "CHiPs". I wonder if they were an option on some other car, or some kind of aftermarket thing? I'm guessing that's the 5-on-5 bolt pattern?

fintail

Called the garage about the fintail today, as it was supposed to be finished. New generator arrived, was installed, they ran the car for a few minutes, and something seemed wrong. The generator was apparently very hot, and when doing something with the battery (disconnecting), it arced like a discharge or something. I hope this didn't mess up the electrical system - one part of the car that really didn't need work. So it continues...

omarman

Fintail this links to a pdf file regarding bosch generators and there's an application chart plus a handy diagram for polarizing a new/rebuilt generator. Connect a hot lead to the right post to correctly polarize the generator or risk damage to the generator, regulator contacts or battery. It can vary one make to another even with domestic old cars. I haven't had to deal with a car generator since my family's old 1950 Chevy. But back then they were so common that it was easy to find a shop with lots of experience to sort them out.

lemko

I was thinking those wheels on the '72 Chevy wagon might be the Ford turbine wheels that I had on my 1989 Grand Marquis LS. The Panther came out in 1979 when CHiPs was a popular TV show. Maybe those are Ford wheels. Did Ford offer that style wheel that far back?

I saw an episode of CHiPs yesterday afternoon where they wrecked a red 1966 Mustang and a brown 1967 Thunderbird. Of course the overturned Mustang blew up as all cars tend to do on that show even in a minor parking lot fender-bender. It's painful seeing those classic cars being destroyed, but back then they were just old used cars with little market value.

andre1969

Yep, I saw that episode too, Lemko. In fact, the '72 Impala wagon was briefly in that episode, in a stock footage shot. Continuity is really bad with these episodes. Most of the freeway filming looks like it's done fairly late in the afternoon, as you can see long shadows and there's sort of a soft orangeish glow. But in one of the chase scenes, they did a brief cut that was shot in the middle of the day, and you could see Ponch and John passing that '72 wagon.

I thought it was especially amusing, with that Mustang, how the T-bird barely clipped it, and they were both going slow. The Mustang could have probably stopped in about 20-30 feet. Yet it continued, out of control, off the road, down a hill, and then caught on something to make it flip onto its roof. I even remember thinking "It's a Mustang, watch it blow up..." as these cars were almost as explosion prone as Pintos, although that's when rear-ended.

Anyway, the fire started up front, in the engine. When the car exploded, the explosion originated from inside the passenger compartment, around the dashboard area. My housemate said that maybe the lady's hairspray set it off.

As for the wheels, well this '72 Chevy has been showing up since the first couple episodes, which were aired in the fall of '77, so the most modern cars would be 1978 model year, at the newest. Also, I don't know if a Panther wheel would fit on a big GM car. GM mainly used 4.75 and 5" bolt patterns, while I think the bigger Fords used a 4.5". Not sure what the smaller ones used.

Mopar used mainly a 4.5" pattern, although I think the big '57-66 Imperials may have used a 5.0" pattern. I know my DeSoto is a 4.5" pattern, but I've heard the Imperials were larger. The compacts used a 4" pattern, but once the Dart/Valiant started using disc brakes, I think they went to a 4.5"

One thing I'll say for the first season of CHiPs, though...at least the accidents are somewhat realistic. In the second season, you started seeing more heroic accidents, with the cars going airborne with very little provocation. Wonder if they did that in response to the Dukes of Hazzard? IIRC, the Dukes came out in early 1979 as a mid-season show, so that would have been the '78-79 season, which is when CHiP's started ramping up the accident stunts.

In one second-season Episode, entitled "MAIT Team", there's a big pile-up when a tractor trailer driver gets blinded by a reflection, swerves onto the wrong side of the road, and makes an oncoming coppette swerve off and roll over in a field. Then a little foreign car, like a Mazda RX-3 or something, goes under the truck. A Duster with a ramp strapped to the back slows down, and a '65-67 Galaxie rear ends it, goes airborne, and smears the cab of the big rig. Then two big Mopars both try to pass around behind the trailer, hit each other head on, and explode. I think it was a '65 or so Fury wagon and a '69 or so fuselage Chrysler, but memory's thin. The Galaxie and the truck blow up as well. Pretty impressive accident, for a tv show. But in later years, the cars would fly even higher.

**Edit: Just found it. Thar she blows... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Jh-uCVTdKs

Gotta love how they substitute a pre-wrecked Ford cabover for the actual destruction scene. But, these shows are shot on a budget, and I'm sure destroying a tractor trailer, even an old one, wasn't a cheap proposition. Also, the police cars they'd been using up to this point were mostly '74-75 Monaco/Royal Monacos, but when they decide to wreck one, looks like they used a '73 Polara.

lemko

One thing I always noticed was the 1972 Cadillac DeVille that Ponch and John pass by during the opening theme and credits.

fintail

Interesting. I might pass that on to them, or remind them that it needs to be polarized. I can't imagine they'd forget, as I've seen other old cars in the shop (including a 300SL), but who knows. Interesting that my car is right on that list.

omarman said:

Fintail this links to a pdf file regarding bosch generators and there's an application chart plus a handy diagram for polarizing a new/rebuilt generator. Connect a hot lead to the right post to correctly polarize the generator or risk damage to the generator, regulator contacts or battery. It can vary one make to another even with domestic old cars. I haven't had to deal with a car generator since my family's old 1950 Chevy. But back then they were so common that it was easy to find a shop with lots of experience to sort them out.

fintail

I remember a funny episode where an old lady in a ~55 Coupe DeVille is stopped for using an off-ramp as an on-ramp, or something similar. CHiPs would air in reruns when I was in school in the late 90s, and we'd always watch it before class.

lemko said:

One thing I always noticed was the 1972 Cadillac DeVille that Ponch and John pass by during the opening theme and credits.

lemko

I sure hope they didn't wreck that '55 Coupe DeVille! Even back then it would be a tragic loss. I'm still traumatized over an episode of "The Bionic Woman" where Jaime, disguised as a nun, flips over a 1962 Cadillac Fleetwood Series 75.

gsemike

Back then I though Poncho's trans am was really cool. I still like those cars but that's the only one I've ever seen that had both the shaker and formula scoops together

andre1969

Don't worry, Lemko, they never did anything too mean to Mrs. Downey's Cadillac. Oh, turns out, it's actually a '56...



There was one episode though, where she left the CHP headquarters after asking Ponch and John to fix a ticket she got from LAPD, and she drove out of the parking lot a bit spiritedly. But, even back then, I think the producers of the show appreciated the fact that it was a very nice car, too nice to smash up.

I also remember an episode where a 1961 or 62 Cadillac hearse blew up; I think it had a bomb in it. However, this was accomplished by superimposing a stock explosion over it. So even there, I think they appreciated the fact that it was a nice, somewhat valuable car. Or, perhaps it belonged to somebody, and was merely on loan, so they weren't allowed to wreck it. I know they've wrecked a few hearses and old ambulances on that show.

ab348

I haven't seen the show in years but one of the things I remember that annoyed me at the time was how they shot a lot of their freeway driving scenes (not these stunts obviously) at very slow speeds. I can understand why they did it, both for reasons of safety and for easier sound recording and filming, but it just looked so obviously fake that it bugged me.

omarman

fintail said:

Interesting. I might pass that on to them, or remind them that it needs to be polarized. I can't imagine they'd forget, as I've seen other old cars in the shop (including a 300SL), but who knows. Interesting that my car is right on that list.

I read an earlier post about the fintail's armature getting rewound. No residual magnetic field after that was done. Vintage cars have interesting foibles - partly because so much mechanic talent has moved on or passed on.

fintail

That's good to know. And true about the talent. I remember when I was in school ~15 years ago, I had a great little shop within walking distance that would keep the fintail going. The two personable old guys who ran it were probably in their 60s then. It's been gone for 10 years at least. The MB specialist who I later moved on to is now also over 70. My current indy mechanic isn't much older than me, but has some experienced employees. Still, a point will come where it might be hard to find someone who will take the car in with open arms.

I read an earlier post about the fintail's armature getting rewound. No residual magnetic field after that was done. Vintage cars have interesting foibles - partly because so much mechanic talent has moved on or passed on.

fintail

I remember we'd laugh at the show for that reason. In order to make an exciting chase scene and to make the pursuit dramatic, they'd do something like having "freeway" traffic moving at 25mph, and the pursuit at 45mph - huge gap, but it was obvious what was going on to anyone who has driven a car. Also, almost every chase needs a jump and an explosion, usually involving cars that were already old heaps.

IMCDB has a huge CHiPs gallery. I think I remember this episode:



A guy's new Rolls Royce breaks down, he walks away from it, and it gets stolen.

I also remember one where the two guys are given new MBs, I want to say at least one car was that lovely brown of the era.

ab348 said:

I haven't seen the show in years but one of the things I remember that annoyed me at the time was how they shot a lot of their freeway driving scenes (not these stunts obviously) at very slow speeds. I can understand why they did it, both for reasons of safety and for easier sound recording and filming, but it just looked so obviously fake that it bugged me.

andre1969

One thing I'm getting a kick out of is how Ponch and John can just go down the freeway and carry on a conversation with each other without really shouting at each other. Yeah, right. Of course, it's easier to do at the previously noted 15-20 mph or whatever than it would be at true highway speeds.

In defense of that slow driving though, they only had about a mile of freeway to use for those scenes, so I guess if they went too fast, they'd use that mile up really quick! But yeah, it's amusing to actually see them go faster on the surface streets than the highway!

Something that really bugs me is the continuity errors, such as when they shoot some scenes in the middle of the day, some towards the evening, and then try to splice it all together like it's happening moments apart, but you can really tell a difference in lighting, shadows, etc. And I guess they don't do much morning shooting because of the fog/smog? Every once in awhile, there would be a scene where it was pretty thick.

isellhondas

In the town where I grew up, San Pedro California, they filmed a lot of movies and TV shows.

It wasn't far from Hollywood and it had steep hills, cliffs, the harbor, warehouses and even an old court house that is (still) often seen. I remember once they were filming an Adam 12 episode down on the docks and they had everything blocked off to the public.

Another time they had about five identical Ford Torinos roaring through town as they filmed Starsky and Hutch. On a Mannix episode they drove a car off a cliff into the ocean.

Even now, if I watch a re-run or an old movie I see streets and houses that I recognize.

berri

So you grew up in old time LA, that had to be neat. Did you go to Seattle years back before it became such a big area? Recently retired, I'm guessing you're a Beach Boys fan back from that era out west?

isellhondas

Yep, you got it!

I became a Regional Manager with the company I was with and needed to move. My choices were Denver, Portland or Seattle. Since my family was originally from Seattle and I had lots of cousins here I picked Seattle and I'm happy I did.

Yes, I do remember the old days in Seattle!

Beach Boys? Grew up 20 miles from Hawthorne where they are from and, yes, I have probably every album (CD) that they made. Some are MUCH better than others.

fintail

Heck, with the way the boom continues, the 90s seem like the old days in Seattle.

fintail

Twenty-Six Grand

stever

That would have made a nice canoe rig back in the day. Were you surprised at the winning bid?

fintail

Not really. About 20K Euro, which is relevant as it'll probably end up in Germany or Benelux. You might have to sink another 5K into shipping and duties, and then another 25K into renovation - but there, it'd still be worth it.

stever

We're trying to buy a house on a "private" road - meaning that if you want the ruts fixed, you have to convince the neighbors to go in and hire a grader or buy some loads of gravel. There's a big arroyo that rarely has any water in it but a Miata wouldn't work well going through that dip and the road is a bit rough in general.

So this flopped up my radar tonight and my wife thinks it's kind of cute (she really means it's be great for trips to the nursery).

1961 Ford Ranchero


No price posted. Note the nice green pecan orchard in the background on the second photo with the canal next to it.

fintail

Neat looking little driver, but I always worry when there's no price - they are either holding an unofficial auction, or want so much for it, they are ashamed to admit it. Estate sale companies can be kind of funny with car prices - some give them away, some are way out of line.

stever said:

No price posted. Note the nice green pecan orchard in the background on the second photo with the canal next to it.

bhill2

fintail said:

Neat looking little driver, but I always worry when there's no price - they are either holding an unofficial auction, or want so much for it, they are ashamed to admit it. Estate sale companies can be kind of funny with car prices - some give them away, some are way out of line.

stever said:

No price posted. Note the nice green pecan orchard in the background on the second photo with the canal next to it.

Oh I believe the unofficial auction explanation is the correct one. When I see an ad with no price I assume that the seller is hoping that someone will offer more than even he/she thinks it's worth.

Mr_Shiftright

Well it's definitely a "budget" rod, so their price better not be too ambitious. Maybe..what...$8,000 seems about right. If it drives really nice and the underside is clean and it's not just a tarted up pile of junk, then maybe I guess you could go to $12K and come out all right. Looks rather slap-dash, though. If they think this is $25K rod money, just laugh at them. The hot rod market is in the toilet right now anyway, unless it is spectacular or vintage built.

texases

Given the flexi-flyer design and build quality of my Falcon-derived '65 Mustang, I wonder how much work was put into making that Falcon-derived Ranchero able to handle, stop, and start with a 350 SBC under the hood...

isellhondas

I was thinking the same thing. That could be a white knuckler to drive and stop.

I knew a guy who had a 1963 Ranchero with the factory installed 260 V8 and a four speed. That was one quick little truck!

ab348

texases said:

Given the flexi-flyer design and build quality of my Falcon-derived '65 Mustang, I wonder how much work was put into making that Falcon-derived Ranchero able to handle, stop, and start with a 350 SBC under the hood...

I wouldn't touch it. Those cars were designed for a small 6 and were built very lightly to start with. I can only imagine what 50 years has done to that unibody.

I would actually be more interested in one that is mostly stock with the 6 that has been well taken care of, and even then it would be a marginal vehicle for today.

stever

I've been too swamped with the move to get on to the local craigslist, but that's my next plan. After furniture.

andre1969

I imagine one of those little Falcons/Rancheros wouldn't be too bad if it was fitted with a later 200-6cyl and 3-speed automatic. Or better yet, the later 250. The early 144 and 170 CID engines had to be horrible, especially when mated to the 2-speed. I seem to recall an old test of an early 60's comet that had a 144/2-speed, and 0-60 was something like 26 seconds! A Comet was a bit heavier, but a Falcon with one of those smaller engines was hardly a rocket.

stickguy

If I was getting one of them, I would much rather have a later larger model. And an El Camino, not a Ranchero on the Torino platform.

probably better off with an actual Pick Up truck though.

andre1969

If you want one of those utes for actual truck type duties, a '73-77 El Camino would probably be your best bet, for ruggedness. I guess one of the BOF '72-79 Torino/LTD-II based Rancheros would be pretty rugged as well, though.

But then you're getting close in size to a real pickup truck, so yeah, might as well just go that route. I think my '85 Silverado is around 212" long, and on a 131.5" wb. However, I'm not sure on this, but in those days they might not have counted the rear bumper in the length. I think technically, it was optional? If that's true, then I'd imagine that would put my truck at around 220". I'm not sure how long a '73-77 El Camino would be, but I think it was on the longer 116" wb of the sedans and wagons, rather than the 112" coupe wheelbase. And those wagons, IIRC, were around 215" long, so I'd guess the El Camino would be, as well.

stever

I see a lot of Sidekicks and Trackers here too. Probably just as safe as that Ranchero, just not as "cowboy".

4 X 4 low miles 1990 suzuki sidekick - $2600

Found a price on the yellow Ranchero - $10,200.

qbrozen

ANY miles are high miles on a Tracker or Sidekick. ;b