Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

Michaell

fintail said:

This got good bids - looks nice, cool interior.

A German Jeep Wrangler with a permanent hard top.

Still, I like it.

gsemike

fintail said:

This got good bids - looks nice, cool interior.

I don't get it

stever

Cult car, about the only MB I really "want".

(insert my usual external rain gutter rant here).

Mr_Shiftright

The story of the owner was a lot more interesting than the vehicle itself. This must be a case of the Emperor's New Sheetmetal. I dont' get it either. Homely bucket of bolts IMO.

gsemike said:

fintail said:

This got good bids - looks nice, cool interior.

I don't get it

fintail

This turned up at a regional auction last month - I need to see what it went for. I kind of like this, as-is.

When I was a kid, I had a thing for Ts - especially early cars, and pickups. A brass coupelet would probably be the pinnacle, but a brass center door like this is also massively rare, for such a common car otherwise.

explorerx4

@fintail. One of my SIL's arrived for the wedding ceremony in a Model T driven by her father. It was in the late1980's.

stickguy

they just do nothing for me.

Mr_Shiftright

charming little car, that one--but you know, a Model T is an acquired taste. You cannot be in any way attached to speed or safety unless you do some massive upgrading. You'll also need an old geezer to teach you how to drive one.

fintail

Wooden wheels restored 65 years ago don't make for safe driving, and a reverse pedal, steering wheel throttle, and weirdo transmission don't make for easy driving? At least it has a 2 speed rear end and a self starter

I've always liked early cars, veterans through brass era. The earlies have held their value well, Cheapest way to get into it is a brass T, I think. Although it might be easier to save up and buy something fancier and more conventional (although as Ts go, this was almost top of the line).

ab348

fintail said:

This turned up at a regional auction last month - I need to see what it went for. I kind of like this, as-is.

When I was a kid, I had a thing for Ts - especially early cars, and pickups. A brass coupelet would probably be the pinnacle, but a brass center door like this is also massively rare, for such a common car otherwise.

Years ago - probably around 1990 or so - I was working at a client office 2-3 hours out of town in a small community. I was finishing up and the local guy in the office starts talking to me, discovers I am interested in old cars. Did I have time to go visit someone with a collection? Well, of course. He makes a phone call and off we go, just down the road not far from the guy's office.

I am introduced to a nice older fellow, local businessman, who takes me into a large building. It is filled with cars. The newest was a '65 or '66 Mustang, but most were considerably older. All were Ford Motor Company vehicles. Lots of '50s Fords and Mercuries, even a '57 Turnpike Cruiser. Some '40s stuff. Lots of older stuff - a nicely restored Model A pickup was just so cool. And there was a center-door Model T. I had never seen one before or even heard of the center-door design. He let me get in. It was like entering a large telephone booth, or maybe a small room. You walked around inside it. Absolutely fascinating.

I wonder if they are still there. The guy would be very elderly now. At the time he said he had been collecting them for decades, and even then only ever took them out for parades, etc.

fintail

If they are there, they aren't appreciating. Although some prewar Ford V8 cars are still worth a bit. Model A and T era common cars haven't fared well though.

The center door body is unique, reminds me of electric cars of the same era.

ab348 said:

I wonder if they are still there. The guy would be very elderly now. At the time he said he had been collecting them for decades, and even then only ever took them out for parades, etc.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

If they are there, they aren't appreciating. Although some prewar Ford V8 cars are still worth a bit. Model A and T era common cars haven't fared well though.

It's understandable why prewar cars are interesting to look at, but few of today's enthusiasts and collectors can identify with them. They can't relate to them in the same way that folks relate to old cars of the postwar period. Therefore, they don't bid on them.

Mr_Shiftright

True enough. I saw Model A rumble seat coupe for sale---just about a perfect restoration, with the addition of overdrive, a vastly improved motor (insert bearings, higher HP), spectacular body and paint and chrome (nickel), an undercarriage you could eat off---asking price $25000 and nobody's buying. I doubt it'll bring $20K, and probably cost 3X that or more to do up.

fintail

Yep, the people who remember those cars as normal cars, or even as old jalopies, are just about gone now. That and many of the cars not being very good for modern roads doesn't help. That 1925 Essex or 1931 Durant will just be a cheap and cheerful curiosity at most.

The pricing Shifty mentions is funny - that perfect A coupe might have been worth 20K 30-35 years ago, in raw dollars - adjust for inflation or other ways the money could have been spent, and it shows how the market evaporated. Model A coupe is probably a hard sell these days too, not for tall or large people.

hpmctorque said:

to old cars of the postwar period. Therefore, they don't bid on them.

stickguy

makes you wonder what happens a few years down the road when everyone that remembers muscle cars as actual cars, not auction collectibles.

fintail

I think muscle cars will fare better - there will eventually be a decline, but it won't be as abrupt. The boomers are a huge, healthy, and wealthy group, and some of their kids seem to like similar vehicles - the movement has a couple decades left at the very least.

stickguy said:

makes you wonder what happens a few years down the road when everyone that remembers muscle cars as actual cars, not auction collectibles.

fintail

I went by Sears this morning to look for a new jumper box - as mine has perished due to not being charged regularly. I plug it in, and it makes a horrible high pitched noise. Oops. 7 years, not too bad. Just my luck, the power was out in an adjacent building, and I couldn't get a new one. I've had luck with Sears batteries over the years, and my dad did too -fintail's drained battery is a DieHard from spring of 07, not bad for a generator car. I hope I can charge it, but if not, it doesn't owe me anything.

I need to get the car running again so I can take it to the shop and have the cold start problem fixed. It's beginning to bug me, not being able to drive the car, Looks like the old dear will get to have a season long nap to compensate for all of the summer driving.

fintail

This poor 300TD might not be a viable project anymore, after last night's windstorm:



I bet it still runs and drives.

ab348

Ouch. Poor old thing.

Mr_Shiftright

"For Sale. Mercedes 300TD wagon. Converted to run on wood. These cars can easily go 900,000 miles. Needs bodywork, upholstery, tires, brakes, exhaust, tune up, AC recharged. Radio doesn't work. Windshield cracked but not in driver's view. Some chrome pieces missing. Minor rust in floors and trunk but I have a new floor from another car ready to install. Transmission slips but only when cold. No smog test needed! Won't last long at this price. $12,500 or best offer."

hpmctorque

Should Putin's Oligarchmobile cause MB and Roller to be worried?

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/putins-limousine-project-rolls-ahead

Mr_Shiftright

Well the question is: If it can reach the moon, can they bring it back?

hpmctorque

Mr_Shiftright said:

Well the question is: If it can reach the moon, can they bring it back?

I wonder what the production target is, assuming it ever reaches production? One, exclusively for Mr. P; 10, so a few of his cronies can enjoy the luxury and uber status? Anything beyond 25 would be a stretch, unless they export a few to the Oilgarchs.

Bill Gates likes Ferraris and Porsches, and Warren Buffett favors Cadillacs, so they're not prospects.

Mr_Shiftright

Pretty risky buying into a low production vehicle. Remember the Mercedes 600s? They had a boatload of trouble with that car. Chairman Mao had one, but I dont' think he ever sent it back to Stuttgart for warranty work. I often wondered how they fixed that thing and kept it running. Benz probably flew someone in.

hpmctorque

Mr_Shiftright said:

Pretty risky buying into a low production vehicle. Remember the Mercedes 600s? They had a boatload of trouble with that car. Chairman Mao had one, but I dont' think he ever sent it back to Stuttgart for warranty work. I often wondered how they fixed that thing and kept it running. Benz probably flew someone in.

I wonder how reliable those Soviet era ZISes and ZILs were?

As you know from your appraisal business, and have mentioned a few times, risk isn't a big issue for vane billionaires who have multiple residences and vehicles.

It's really ironic that Chairman Mao, of all people, had a Mercedes 600. Of course, he was also one of the monsters of the last century, so his choice of vehicle was consistent with those of his German and Russian counterparts.

fintail

Also, gets 50 mpg, better than a Prius.

Mr_Shiftright said:

"For Sale. Mercedes 300TD wagon. Converted to run on wood. These cars can easily go 900,000 miles. Needs bodywork, upholstery, tires, brakes, exhaust, tune up, AC recharged. Radio doesn't work. Windshield cracked but not in driver's view. Some chrome pieces missing. Minor rust in floors and trunk but I have a new floor from another car ready to install. Transmission slips but only when cold. No smog test needed! Won't last long at this price. $12,500 or best offer."

fintail

I wouldn't be surprised if it is a one-off, or at best, one of a few. The oligarchs who haven't bought their way into the west yet, and those here alike, all seem to prefer German cars, or those owned by the Germans. Funny how that works, given the situation a mere few generations ago.

hpmctorque said:

I wonder what the production target is, assuming it ever reaches production?
Bill Gates likes Ferraris and Porsches, and Warren Buffet favors Cadillacs, so they're not prospects.

fintail

For a mere $328, I have purchased a new cold start valve and gasket for the fintail. Now to see if I can get it started to take it to the shop.

stickguy

If there was ever a car that should be pushed off a pier in a TV stunt, this is the one.

I could not imagine anyone crazy enough to buy this money pit fright pig.

4K firm? As Shifty likes to say, load up on birthday cakes.

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/4736497711.html

Mr_Shiftright

that BMW looks like it's in a repo yard---at any rate, it would make a decent parts car for the sheet metal. I suspect it's had a hard life and that those 138000 miles should be measured in dog miles.

stickguy

I doubt that 7 series was lovingly maintained, just from the mods.

fintail

Blech, those headlight covers, and what some call "flea market wheels". Doesn't bode well for proper maintenance, Being a 745, there's a chance it smokes, too. Add that to a harsh climate and iDrive 1.0, and you have nothing but fun.

stickguy said:

If there was ever a car that should be pushed off a pier in a TV stunt, this is the one.
l

stickguy

it's as big as a whale, and ready to set sail.

http://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/4695958489.html

ab348

Side pipes need to go ASAP.

stickguy

yeah, the pipes were an odd touch. Who knows if they are even connected.

fintail

3K, probably 2500 if you try, no harm done. Those were sturdy cars, I think. My grandpa had a red 65, bought new, liked it a lot, my uncle still mentions it now and then.

stickguy said:

it's as big as a whale, and ready to set sail.

andre1969

I had a '67 Newport for a few months, back in 1999. Hardtop coupe, with the Barracuda-esque roofline. It was pretty rusty, but still felt pretty solid despite that. It had rust coming out in the strangest places though. Rather than coming out around the trim, lower edges, around the windows, etc, it actually had blossoms coming out in places like the center of the rear quarter panel and such.

It wasn't a very fast car, despite having a big block. Chrysler did something to the 383-2bbl that year that choked it down to 270 hp. In the past, I think that engine had been good for around 290-305 hp. I think they got the hp back up a bit for '68, though.

I got the car after a friend's grandmother passed away. The family simply wanted the car gone so they could fix up the house and sell it, so they gave it to me. I would have kept it longer, but when I bought my 2000 Intrepid in the fall of that year, my uncle lent me the money for the down payment. At that point, I also still owed him $2000 for the '88 LeBaron I had bought from him when I was married. So at that point, I figured I really had too many cars, needed to downsize a bit, and get serious about paying my uncle back. So, I sold the Newport, for $800. Oh, almost forgot, the brakes had gone out on it as well, and I didn't want to put any money into it, so that was part of the motivation, as well.

Speaking of brakes, that car didn't have a power assist, yet it didn't take that much effort to stop it. The elderly lady who had it before me had owned it since 1971, and never had any problems with stopping it, even as she aged. So, I guess that's a pretty good indication that power assist wasn't all that critical in those days of drum brakes. Oh, it also had air conditioning, and surprisingly, it still worked! It also had one of those elusive "Cold" idiot lights that made the rounds in those days. The light would come on when you first started the car, and went off once it warmed up.

bhill2

andre1969 said:

It also had one of those elusive "Cold" idiot lights that made the rounds in those days. The light would come on when you first started the car, and went off once it warmed up.

My friend's father had that light in his '65 Ford. I never could figure out what the hell it was for. Maybe you were not supposed to accelerate too hard or rev the engine too high until it went out. Since the car had the 240 c.i. six, it didn't matter that much anyway.

hpmctorque

bhill2 said:

andre1969 said:

It also had one of those elusive "Cold" idiot lights that made the rounds in those days. The light would come on when you first started the car, and went off once it warmed up.

My friend's father had that light in his '65 Ford. I never could figure out what the hell it was for. Maybe you were not supposed to accelerate too hard or rev the engine too high until it went out. Since the car had the 240 c.i. six, it didn't matter that much anyway.

You're right; the purpose of the "cold" light was to remind the driver that the engine had not yet reached its normal operating temperature, and that fast acceleration and high revs were to be avoided until the light went off. Ignoring this light increased engine wear and, in extreme cases, could damage the engine. Although a temperature gauge would have been preferable for those who cared about what the engine temperature was, the light may have served the majority of drivers better, since it was more visible (thus the term "idiot light"). Of course, in an era when many drivers automatically traded their vehicles every two-four years, on regular basis, many drivers payed little or no attention to the idiot light.

Let's remember that idiot lights were introduced in the days of carburated engines, when many women and teenagers were getting drivers licenses for the first time, and when motor oils didn't protect engines in cold weather climates, especially, as well as they do today. Cars didn't start as easily and reliably in sub-20 degree F temperatures as they do today. It was a common, though misguided habit for many drivers to rev up their cold, carburated engines in neutral (vroom, Vrooom, VROOOOOOM), to try to warm the engine faster, so they wouldn't die when they took off. It wasn't commonly known then that the best, fastest way to warm the engine was not to rev a cold engine like you were preparing for a drag race, but, rather, to drive moderately for the first several minutes.

The old habits may have been a response to the days when, in very cold weather, the engine might start, maybe after considerable cranking, stay on for one or a few seconds, then die. Sometimes this cycle was repeated two, three or four times, especially in the years of early emission controls, and especially in very cold weather conditions. There were also times when an engine would start, run for one or a few seconds, get flooded, or whatever, and not restart. These old driving styles, and the idiot light, were responses for aiding a majority of average drivers, for conditions that once existed, but haven't existed for decades.

Now that idiot lights are gone, only idiots rev up their cold engines in "park" or neutral before dropping into "drive."

By the way, the same issues applied whether the engine was a small displacement six or a honking, large cube V8. Many drivers were more focused on getting to where they were going as expediently as possible, especially when they were shivering in a cold car, than on engine wear, and/or were ignorant about the consequences of their driving habits.

Long answer to a short comment.

ab348

Don't forget that with a carbureted engine, setting the automatic choke meant that the engine started (if it started at all) at a relatively high RPM. Many drivers likely thought that revving a cold engine would warm it up faster.

I remember that dad's '63 Pontiacs (he owned 2 at different times) had a green "Cold" idiot light. We thought it was neat as none of his other cars ever had one.

andre1969

One thing I remember, from the 70's and 80's, is Mom letting the car warm up a good 5 minutes on cold days sometimes. I picked up that habit from her when I started driving, but eventually shook it. I've heard that if you just let it warm up about a minute, and then take off and drive gently at first, it'll warm up quicker, and waste less fuel. I've also heard that letting them warm up for an excessively long time, at fast idle, isn't good for them, either.

Now, in colder climates, maybe it really WAS necessary to let them warm up longer. But here in the DC suburbs of Maryland, it usually doesn't get *that* cold.

Mr_Shiftright

Running with the choke on or partially on also created fuel dilution in the oil--so with that excellent gasoline solvent washing cylinder walls and some folks revving a cold engine on top of that, you can imagine the amount of wear some engines had to endure.

Reaching 100000 miles on an engine was a real accomplishment in the 50s and 60s. Now people howl in protest if their modern engines have a problem at that mileage.

omarman

Kinda spooky sight of 36 Corvettes left to haunt this garage.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, they're going to need a bit of clean up! Some very particular Corvette collectors hate things like this, as it gluts the market on the rarer cars they already own.

The 53 will bring good money---interestingly, '54s won't even bring half as much.

stickguy

See something new every day. That would be an expensive restoration. Better to clean them all good, put on new tires, and do basic fluids, etc. maintenance. I assume that is the keel if restoration planned. Makes more sense to keep some connection to the original contest collection.

Mr_Shiftright

It wouldn't pay to fully restore most of them.

fintail

I had to let my first car warm up like that - the 66 Galaxie with a 390, and I believe it had a cold light, too. Very cold blooded car - if you drove off before 5 mins, you'd almost always stall. Maybe a carb issue there, too.

andre1969 said:

One thing I remember, from the 70's and 80's, is Mom letting the car warm up a good 5 minutes on cold days sometimes. I picked up that habit from her when I started driving, but eventually shook it. I've heard that if you just let it warm up about a minute, and then take off and drive gently at first, it'll warm up quicker, and waste less fuel. I've also heard that letting them warm up for an excessively long time, at fast idle, isn't good for them, either.

Now, in colder climates, maybe it really WAS necessary to let them warm up longer. But here in the DC suburbs of Maryland, it usually doesn't get *that* cold.

xwesx

Let us not forget that idiot lights have returned! Many cars nowadays no longer have temperature gauges. Both my Forester and Fiesta are examples, and I find it highly annoying (for my part). Apparently dash space is just too valuable these days, what with all the electronics and idiot lights....

xwesx

That would be a fun collection, I think. And, the only sensible thing to do would be to keep it up to date. E.g., add the '90 through '14 models to it!

stickguy

Even temp gauges are phony now. Just idiot lights with a dial.