I don't think people who buy '65 Coronets give a rap about authenticity.
I don't think people who buy Mopars give a rap about '65 Coronets.
If I was going to pay serious money for an old Mopar, it would be something from the Forward Look era, or a '68-70 intermediate.
I wouldn't turn down something like a '65 Coronet, if I happened to stumble across a nice one at a good price, and was itching to buy something different. But it's not something I'd actively seek out.
I don't think people who buy '65 Coronets give a rap about authenticity.
I don't think people who buy Mopars give a rap about '65 Coronets.
If I was going to pay serious money for an old Mopar, it would be something from the Forward Look era, or a '68-70 intermediate.
I wouldn't turn down something like a '65 Coronet, if I happened to stumble across a nice one at a good price, and was itching to buy something different. But it's not something I'd actively seek out.
I actually should have been more specific, and said 'I don't think people who buy Mopar muscle cars give a rap about '65 Coronets. I actually wouldn't be ashamed to be seen in that car since I think of it as a nice clean design.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
I kinda like it...I thought the '65 intermediate Dodges and Plymouths made nice transitional cars...not as weird and offbeat as the '62-64 models, but not as boxy and refrigeratoresque as the '66-67 models.
Refrigeratoresque!? Must have come standard with A/C, dark tinted windows and white enamel paint.
I think the wheels on the Nomad aren't that bad. I'd prefer Cragar-type ones, but those are pretty close to that.
But, like shifty said, its tough to know what is going on here. That's an ad I would expect for a $20k-$25k example. Gotta prove to me its worth what he's asking.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Lots and lots of modified nomads out there, so he's going to have to step up his ad considerably. We'd need a complete list of major components and their brand names, nice shots of engine, interior and especially undercarriage (on a lift if possible), date of restoration, and descriptions of any major panel repairs. Also any awards at car shows (no matter how local).
Well sounds like the poor guy needs to cut his losses and use the cash for his own well-being and comfort, at this point. Most used cars are all the same to a buyer but all rods are different, so you need to get the buyer to the car, no matter what it takes to lure him there.
Shame about the Nomad guy, but when people look at money spent vs selling price, they will usually be disappointed. If he isn't enjoying it, sometimes it comes time to just move on.
I am not surprised about the Chaplin's offer. They often have an unusual older car at the VW lot, with a much higher than real world price - I assume it is an asking price, or they are fishing for an uninformed over-monied east side impulse buyer.
Since they never made a convertible Monte Carlo, this is obviously a conversion done by someone over the years using GM A-body parts. God knows how well all the work was done. Not my cup of java, but certainly a conversation piece.
Looks fairly nice, I'd worry about cowl shake, A-pillar rigidity, and stiffness. Also how it looks with the top up, sometimes conversions can look iffy - I notice the seller has no such pics.
Since they never made a convertible Monte Carlo, this is obviously a conversion done by someone over the years using GM A-body parts. God knows how well all the work was done. Not my cup of java, but certainly a conversation piece.
That might work. I remember stopping by when they had an F355 Spider a couple years ago. They wanted huge money for it, like retail + 50%. But maybe that's not a firm price, and I think the owner is into cars, too.
Looks fairly nice, I'd worry about cowl shake, A-pillar rigidity, and stiffness. Also how it looks with the top up, sometimes conversions can look iffy - I notice the seller has no such pics.
Since they never made a convertible Monte Carlo, this is obviously a conversion done by someone over the years using GM A-body parts. God knows how well all the work was done. Not my cup of java, but certainly a conversation piece.
I would have that car carefully inspected. If the frame has not been appropriately strengthened that 454 could twist it up in no time. Also, is there any good reason that it has Vintage air? Would a factory unit retrofit be that hard? Finally, does anyone know what the knobs are in the passenger footwell?
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
Also, is there any good reason that it has Vintage air? Would a factory unit retrofit be that hard? Finally, does anyone know what the knobs are in the passenger footwell?
Those footwell knobs are found on non-A/C early '70s A-bodies. One controls the vents you see in the footwell and the other controls the dash air vents - outside air only. This was originally a non-A/C car obviously.
Ferrari 355 Spider? Not a big buck car. You can buy them all day long for $50,000 if you're willing to accept shockingly high miles of 30,000. (Ferrari miles are like dog miles). A Ferrari with 60,000 miles is almost sales proof.
That's just silly. If it had like 3,000 miles on it, maybe $65K if it were pristine perfect with all services. Keep in mind---a Ferrari costs about $2 a mile to run.
Don't remember these? 50th anniversary of Pontiac? Obviously nuts money but note to sellers: detail the car before you take pics
Yeah, it was the 50th anniversary of Pontiac. I don't remember a 50th anniversary Trans Am, either, but do remember a 50th anniversary Grand Prix. I don't think either one was very popular. I think the Grand Prix anniversary edition only came in gold. And probably not a tasteful shade of gold, either.
The home-made stuff hurts the value, as does the condition of the car. Someone's going to have to restore the whole enchilada, and that costs money. He's asking "clean driver" money for a car that is, at best, in "fair condition".
His T-Top story is incorrect. Pontiac stopped T-Top production on this car after 643 units, (production troubles) and then continued producing an additional 1757 units without the T-Top. All were designated Y82 whether it had the tops or not and regardless of which engine it had
So actually, his car is less rare than the T-Top car and not at all unique. On the plus side, the 455 engine is rarer than the 400 cid cars, so he might have one of a few 455s without the T-top. To say the "only" one is not supportable by evidence.
I think we're looking at a $10,000 car here at best. You can buy the rare 455 T-Top version of this car in very nice condition for $35,000.
So how do you go from THIS to THAT even with $25,000 to play with? You can't.
His T-Top story is incorrect. Pontiac stopped T-Top production on this car after 643 units, (production troubles) and then continued producing an additional 1757 units without the T-Top. All were designated Y82 whether it had the tops or not and regardless of which engine it had
I think what happened was that buyers initially balked at the price of the 50th anniversary edition, so Pontiac cut out some options, such as the T-tops, to bring the price down. I think that package initially added about $1100-1200 to the price of the car. In today's dollars, that's like $4600-5000! For the non T-top versions, I think the 50th anniversary package only added about $450-500.
As for engines, I can't remember for sure, but did Pontiac even have any high-performance engines by 1976? IIRC, the 400 had 180 hp and the 455 had 200, but it was the same across the board whether it was in a Trans Am, LeMans, Grand Prix, or full-size car.
Now in 1977, I know Pontiac had a high(er) performance 400. It made 180 hp across most applications, but in the Trans Am, as well as the "1977.5" Pontiac Can Am, it had 200.
Well by 1976 standards it was "high performance"---remember, this was the year Cadillac was getting LESS than 200HP out of 500 cubic inches!
I have read in different places that the T-Tops disappeared due to production problems with Hurst but no reason why that could not have included cost over runs.
Performance got bad enough that one year, a Dodge Dart with a 360 was actually the fastest US production car. I think it was '75 or '76, but I don't remember if the metric was acceleration or top speed. 1974 was a really bad year as well, but there were still a few high hp cars around. Now whether they could really go that fast might have been a different story, with all the rudimentary emissions controls that year. I guess it's possible that a '75-76 car, with less rated horsepower, could still be quicker than a '74 equivalent with a higher rating.
I think Dodge managed to get away with putting copcar 440's, which were essentially musclecar engines, in their trucks for a few years after they dropped them from civilian cars. In 1978, for example, there was still a copcar 440 around that had 245 hp. In civilian cars, I think it only had around 195-205.
What a cool car. Probably a real slug to drive though.
Oh yeah. Let me see; if you got on the southbound I-5 freeway in Tacoma I'm sure it would be up to freeway speed by the time you hit the Oregon border.
I love how the seller says "Passenger compartment heaters, electric clocks, power brakes, power steering and white wall tires were all available as options." He doesn't say that this car has any of them (OK, it has the whitewalls). In fact, from the necks' knob on the steering wheel I'm betting it doesn't have power steering. I also am amused by the listing stating that it has a manual transmission when some of the pictures, including one close-up, show a shift quadrant.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
I see a clock. No power brake for sure, but that might...maybe...be a...either power steering reservoir or external oil filter ??? it has a dual belt but that could be for the generator.
that Desoto is odd. Certainly looks like an AT gear pointer, but the lever looks like a 3 on the tree, and it appears to have a clutch. I am no 50s expert (OK, I am pretty clueless) but that does not seem to make sense!
that Desoto is odd. Certainly looks like an AT gear pointer, but the lever looks like a 3 on the tree, and it appears to have a clutch. I am no 50s expert (OK, I am pretty clueless) but that does not seem to make sense!
I'm guessing it has semi-automatic Fluid Drive, as the vast majority of 1953 DeSotos had. The 1954s had the fully automatic PowerFlyte, which eliminated the clutch pedal, of course.
I like the size, practicality and honesty of the 1949-1954 DeSoltos. Those equipped with the hemi Firesome V8 had ample power, although they weren't particularly fast, either, with Fluid Drive or the 2-speed Powerflyte.
Don't rod that stylish DeSoto - just resto-mod it. Update the powetrain, maybe give it air and suspension updates, but keep a relatively stock ride height, and it needs wide whites and hubcaps. It'd be a money pit labor of love, but there's a price to pay for uniqueness, and it is a cool looking car.
Yes I was thinking more along the lines of a Pro Tourer. The ride height probably has to come down a little for handling purposes.
I agree with fintail. My take is that preserving that car's original appearance and presence trumps the modest improvement in handling that would be achieved by lowering it "a little." I believe it would handle well enough, with upgraded brakes, shocks and radials, for even modern roads if driven conservatively.
I'll acknowledge that I consider this DeSoto to be of the last generation when domestic cars were the very best that reasonable money could buy. Nothing from Europe came close, in terms of practical family transporation. They were large cars, but not huge as in later years, very comfortable and roomy, and powerful enough for the predominantly two-lane highways of the time.
Beginning in 1955 the quality of domestic cars started to go down but, in my opinion American cars continued to hold the all-around best value title for a few more years.
Aside from the fact that DeSoto wagons weren't big sellers, this wagon was arguably the equivalent of the Toyota Venza of its day. Its attributes were similar to the Venza's, but it wasn't at the leading edge of automotive technology. The Venza doesn't feature direct injection and turbocharging, for example, and, like that DeSoto, is conservatively styled.
Yeah, I'm guessing that '53 DeSoto has the semi-automatic transmission. You still had to use the clutch to shift between "Low" and "High". But, if you weren't that concerned about acceleration, you could start off in "High" and leave it there all day long. That's one reason cab companies liked these cars so much.
As for acceleration, I remember reading an old road test somewhere of a '53 Firedome convertible, and they said that the 276.1 V-8 knocked about 4 seconds off the 0-60 time, compared to the 6-cyl. And IIRC, they quoted a 0-60 time of around 17.6 seconds. So, that would put the 6-cyl at around 21.6-22 seconds or so?
As for other details, my old car book says that only 500 Powermaster wagons were built, and the base price was $3,078. And I'm sure that, with options, the price crept up fast. My great-uncle's mother had a '53 Firedome sedan, which base priced at $2643, but by the time you added the power steering, heater, fluid drive, white walls, etc, it was up to around $3500. Just for comparison, a '53 Cadillac started at around $3600-3700...of course, even with a Caddy, a lot of stuff we take for granted these days was optional.
I like how the ad tries to spin it that the Powermaster was something special for DeSoto's 25th anniversary. It wasn't. Previously, DeSotos came in two trim levels: Deluxe and Custom. But for 1952, they added the Firedome, named after it engine. It accounted for something like 50,000 units that year, while the Deluxe and Custom combined were only good for around 38,000. For '53, they combined the two 6-cyl series under one name, "Powermaster". The Firedome outsold it again, by a wide margin, a reflection, I guess, on the public's growing demand for nicer and faster cars.
The Powermaster/Firedome series was replaced in '55 by the Firedome/Fireflite series. However, rather than moving up in price, the Firedome moved down a bit, coming in at a bit more than what the '54 Powermaster had been. For instance, the '54 Powermaster wagon was $3108, while the '55 Firedome, which had a standard 185 hp 291 V-8, came in at $3170.
You still had to use the clutch to shift between "Low" and "High".
The clutch was used for any movement of the shift lever, including to and from reverse and neutral.
The 0-60 numbers understate the powertrain's all-around performance, with the 6 or V8, because included in these figures was the time it took for the transmission to "semi-automatically" shift from low to high (3rd to 4th gear), in addition to the time it took to manually shift from low range (1st and 2nd gear) to high range). So, if you were trying to minimize 0-60 times you needed to use the shift lever. You began by depressing the clutch to shift the steering wheel mounted lever up. Then you revved the engine and dropped the clutch for the launch. Next you let up on the accelerator to allow the upshift to second. Next you depressed the clutch again and lowered the shift lever to high range (3rd gear). This most likely got you to 60 mph, at least with the V8, but maybe or maybe not with the 6. If you wanted to continue accelerating, say to 80 mph, you had to let up on the accelerator again for the transmission to shift to 4th gear.
As the name implied, Fluid-Drive was as smooth as silk, but the "semi-automatic" shifts between 1st and 2nd, and 3rd and 4th, were slow. The transmission signaled that the shift had occurred to the driver by emitting a "click" sound.
Back to my point about underestimation of all-around performance, once the transmission had semi-automatically shifted, there was no slippage, and throttle response was relatively strong. If the semi-automatic shifts had been as quick as those of GM's (4-speed) Hydramatic, for example, 0-60 times would have been significantly reduced. However, pre-1956 Hydramatics didn't shift smoothly.
"... if you weren't that concerned about acceleration, you could start off in "High" and leave it there all day long. That's one reason cab companies liked these cars so much."
True, unless you accelerated from a dead stop or a very low speed on an incline. Then, particularly if the incline was steep, you'd probably opt for a manual shift to low-range (1st gear) launch. Then you could manually shift to high-range (3rd) when you reached ~20 mph, skipping the semi-automatic shift to 2nd.
It sounds more complicated than it really was. It didn't take long for the procedure to become - if you'll excuse the pun - automatic.
If you increase the HP, you have to address ride height and braking on these old tubs. Dropping the car an inch would hardly be noticeable and it would give you such a better degree of handling on turns. And of course docking her at night in the wind would be less of a hassle
If you increase the HP, you have to address ride height and braking on these old tubs. Dropping the car an inch would hardly be noticeable and it would give you such a better degree of handling on turns. And of course docking her at night in the wind would be less of a hassle
Didn't know the mods included increasing the HP. Wouldn't that make it more of a restorod than a restomod?
Also, dropping the height would most likely negatively affects the ride, which was one of the endearing features of these cars. We'll have to agree to disagree on this mod. That's okay because if everyone agreed on everything there'd be no need for discussion.
Comments
I wouldn't turn down something like a '65 Coronet, if I happened to stumble across a nice one at a good price, and was itching to buy something different. But it's not something I'd actively seek out.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
But, like shifty said, its tough to know what is going on here. That's an ad I would expect for a $20k-$25k example. Gotta prove to me its worth what he's asking.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I would get rid of those 70's Crager wheels and find some stock wheels and correct hubcaps.
The mods can be reversed if a buyer doesn't like them and Vintage Air can be added.
I know he's had a ton of work done on it including a total front end rebuild.
Fintail, the owner of Chaplins VW offered him a bunch of money for it awhile back but I guess it wasn't enough.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I am not surprised about the Chaplin's offer. They often have an unusual older car at the VW lot, with a much higher than real world price - I assume it is an asking price, or they are fishing for an uninformed over-monied east side impulse buyer.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/chevrolet/monte_carlo/1689266.html?refer=musweekly
Since they never made a convertible Monte Carlo, this is obviously a conversion done by someone over the years using GM A-body parts. God knows how well all the work was done. Not my cup of java, but certainly a conversation piece.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
I would have that car carefully inspected. If the frame has not been appropriately strengthened that 454 could twist it up in no time. Also, is there any good reason that it has Vintage air? Would a factory unit retrofit be that hard? Finally, does anyone know what the knobs are in the passenger footwell?
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
http://utica.craigslist.org/cto/4743576373.html
Don't remember these? 50th anniversary of Pontiac? Obviously nuts money but note to sellers: detail the car before you take pics
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
His T-Top story is incorrect. Pontiac stopped T-Top production on this car after 643 units, (production troubles) and then continued producing an additional 1757 units without the T-Top. All were designated Y82 whether it had the tops or not and regardless of which engine it had
So actually, his car is less rare than the T-Top car and not at all unique. On the plus side, the 455 engine is rarer than the 400 cid cars, so he might have one of a few 455s without the T-top. To say the "only" one is not supportable by evidence.
I think we're looking at a $10,000 car here at best. You can buy the rare 455 T-Top version of this car in very nice condition for $35,000.
So how do you go from THIS to THAT even with $25,000 to play with? You can't.
As for engines, I can't remember for sure, but did Pontiac even have any high-performance engines by 1976? IIRC, the 400 had 180 hp and the 455 had 200, but it was the same across the board whether it was in a Trans Am, LeMans, Grand Prix, or full-size car.
Now in 1977, I know Pontiac had a high(er) performance 400. It made 180 hp across most applications, but in the Trans Am, as well as the "1977.5" Pontiac Can Am, it had 200.
I have read in different places that the T-Tops disappeared due to production problems with Hurst but no reason why that could not have included cost over runs.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/DeSoto-1953-desoto-powermaster-beautiful-example-incredible-original-condition-/271657756954?forcerrptr=true&hash=item3f4010691a&item=271657756954&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
I really like this one!
I love how the seller says "Passenger compartment heaters, electric clocks, power brakes, power steering and white wall tires were all available as options." He doesn't say that this car has any of them (OK, it has the whitewalls). In fact, from the necks' knob on the steering wheel I'm betting it doesn't have power steering. I also am amused by the listing stating that it has a manual transmission when some of the pictures, including one close-up, show a shift quadrant.
2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])
It would make a great street rod.
It WOULD be a slug with that feeble flathead and that automatic but I think it could keep up with freeway traffic. Maybe.
I like the fact it is so unique and a car not often seen.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I like the size, practicality and honesty of the 1949-1954 DeSoltos. Those equipped with the hemi Firesome V8 had ample power, although they weren't particularly fast, either, with Fluid Drive or the 2-speed Powerflyte.
I'll acknowledge that I consider this DeSoto to be of the last generation when domestic cars were the very best that reasonable money could buy. Nothing from Europe came close, in terms of practical family transporation. They were large cars, but not huge as in later years, very comfortable and roomy, and powerful enough for the predominantly two-lane highways of the time.
Beginning in 1955 the quality of domestic cars started to go down but, in my opinion American cars continued to hold the all-around best value title for a few more years.
Aside from the fact that DeSoto wagons weren't big sellers, this wagon was arguably the equivalent of the Toyota Venza of its day. Its attributes were similar to the Venza's, but it wasn't at the leading edge of automotive technology. The Venza doesn't feature direct injection and turbocharging, for example, and, like that DeSoto, is conservatively styled.
As for acceleration, I remember reading an old road test somewhere of a '53 Firedome convertible, and they said that the 276.1 V-8 knocked about 4 seconds off the 0-60 time, compared to the 6-cyl. And IIRC, they quoted a 0-60 time of around 17.6 seconds. So, that would put the 6-cyl at around 21.6-22 seconds or so?
As for other details, my old car book says that only 500 Powermaster wagons were built, and the base price was $3,078. And I'm sure that, with options, the price crept up fast. My great-uncle's mother had a '53 Firedome sedan, which base priced at $2643, but by the time you added the power steering, heater, fluid drive, white walls, etc, it was up to around $3500. Just for comparison, a '53 Cadillac started at around $3600-3700...of course, even with a Caddy, a lot of stuff we take for granted these days was optional.
I like how the ad tries to spin it that the Powermaster was something special for DeSoto's 25th anniversary. It wasn't. Previously, DeSotos came in two trim levels: Deluxe and Custom. But for 1952, they added the Firedome, named after it engine. It accounted for something like 50,000 units that year, while the Deluxe and Custom combined were only good for around 38,000. For '53, they combined the two 6-cyl series under one name, "Powermaster". The Firedome outsold it again, by a wide margin, a reflection, I guess, on the public's growing demand for nicer and faster cars.
The Powermaster/Firedome series was replaced in '55 by the Firedome/Fireflite series. However, rather than moving up in price, the Firedome moved down a bit, coming in at a bit more than what the '54 Powermaster had been. For instance, the '54 Powermaster wagon was $3108, while the '55 Firedome, which had a standard 185 hp 291 V-8, came in at $3170.
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
The 0-60 numbers understate the powertrain's all-around performance, with the 6 or V8, because included in these figures was the time it took for the transmission to "semi-automatically" shift from low to high (3rd to 4th gear), in addition to the time it took to manually shift from low range (1st and 2nd gear) to high range). So, if you were trying to minimize 0-60 times you needed to use the shift lever. You began by depressing the clutch to shift the steering wheel mounted lever up. Then you revved the engine and dropped the clutch for the launch. Next you let up on the accelerator to allow the upshift to second. Next you depressed the clutch again and lowered the shift lever to high range (3rd gear). This most likely got you to 60 mph, at least with the V8, but maybe or maybe not with the 6. If you wanted to continue accelerating, say to 80 mph, you had to let up on the accelerator again for the transmission to shift to 4th gear.
As the name implied, Fluid-Drive was as smooth as silk, but the "semi-automatic" shifts between 1st and 2nd, and 3rd and 4th, were slow. The transmission signaled that the shift had occurred to the driver by emitting a "click" sound.
Back to my point about underestimation of all-around performance, once the transmission had semi-automatically shifted, there was no slippage, and throttle response was relatively strong. If the semi-automatic shifts had been as quick as those of GM's (4-speed) Hydramatic, for example, 0-60 times would have been significantly reduced. However, pre-1956 Hydramatics didn't shift smoothly.
"... if you weren't that concerned about acceleration, you could start off in "High" and leave it there all day long. That's one reason cab companies liked these cars so much."
True, unless you accelerated from a dead stop or a very low speed on an incline. Then, particularly if the incline was steep, you'd probably opt for a manual shift to low-range (1st gear) launch. Then you could manually shift to high-range (3rd) when you reached ~20 mph, skipping the semi-automatic shift to 2nd.
It sounds more complicated than it really was. It didn't take long for the procedure to become - if you'll excuse the pun - automatic.
Also, dropping the height would most likely negatively affects the ride, which was one of the endearing features of these cars. We'll have to agree to disagree on this mod. That's okay because if everyone agreed on everything there'd be no need for discussion.
Which would you rather have?
No wonder they sold so few. Still, I have to say I really like it!