Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

hpmctorque

Mr_Shiftright said:

"the problem is that with a '53 Desoto automatic you'd be beating the crap out of it merely to stay up with traffic, to say nothing of overheating on hot days and the smell of oil blowby (no crankcase ventilation system, remember). It'd get old real fast."

I respectfully think the drawbacks you mention are exaggerated. My father, uncle and a family friend owned 1949-1954 Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto and Chrysler sixes and overheating and oil blowby weren't issues in any of these cars. Drivers regularly floored them, and those drivetrains took it. The engines were understressed and the transmissions were durable.

Those old Mopar flat sixes were indeed slow, so I'll grant you that keeping up with modern traffic would require that you adjust your driving style, as isellhondas suggested. However, assuming that DeSoto was in good working order, I wouldn't hesitate to drive it cross country, for concern about overheating or blowby. That assumes that the safety mods that have been mentioned were performed. Now, given a choice of that DeSoto versus even a new subcompact with A/C for that trip I'd choose the subcompact. Of course, I'd prefer a larger, more powerful new car to either, but I was just trying to make a point. My main concern with driving a 1953 car any distance would be being bored to death.

I totally agree with you that I'd quickly get tired of that DeSoto, or any car of similar vintage. I'd really enjoy driving an early post-WWII car, or a more modern old one for an hour or two, just for the experience, but that would satisfy me completely. I'd never buy one.

hpmctorque

Mr_Shiftright said:

I was thinking something like this for the '53 wagon:

Didn't you say you wanted to lower it an inch or so? I'm just being difficult, but I get the humor.

hpmctorque

Mr_Shiftright said:

...My buddy had a '51 Meadowbrook I think it was called. We beat the crap out of that car but as I recall it rarely broke down.

I believe the Meadowbrook was a Dodge, but regardless, your statement supports my point that those cars were tough, so flooring them to keep up with modern traffic better wouldn't destroy them.

Mr_Shiftright

yeah I wasn't thinking just of acceleration but the handling and braking at those speeds. You'd have to be extremely careful. I think my worst fear would be getting rear-ended or rear-ending someone else who has 4-wheel disk brakes. I'd sure give the car in front a long lead time.

fintail

Earlier run W210 like that is a fairly simple car, compared to newer models. For the bad rap they get, I still see tons of them on the road - some wearing battle scars, but still moving along fine. Just keep the oil changed and transmission serviced, and the body will probably go before the powertrain.

I had the AMG variant of that car, and occasionally have sellers remorse.

jwilliams2 said:

I know they scare you out of warranty, but I've had my current '97 MB (E420 135k) for 17 years, and it runs like a champ. I keep saying I will replace it when it breaks, but it hasn't yet. Knock on wood.

Mr_Shiftright

Perhaps many are on the road because of the considerable amount of money put into them. They get much better care than Hyundais after all.

andre1969

Mr_Shiftright said:

yeah I wasn't thinking just of acceleration but the handling and braking at those speeds. You'd have to be extremely careful. I think my worst fear would be getting rear-ended or rear-ending someone else who has 4-wheel disk brakes. I'd sure give the car in front a long lead time.

To a degree, you can control rear ending someone. Just make sure you leave plenty of distance from the car in front of you, and if someone cuts you off, back off IMMEDIATELY, and don't feel the temptation to ride their bumper to teach them a lesson. Of course, you always run the risk of someone doing a dive and swoop, but even there, if you keep a vigil, you should be okay.

Unfortunately, driving cautiously like this and leaving more space in front is going to have an adverse side effect. Drivers behind you are going to get impatient and try to pass you, tailgate you, etc. And alas, old cars tend to have touchy brakes that grab very easily. So, while a modern car may have a shorter stopping distance overall, when you hit the brakes on an old car, the initial slow-down might be quicker than what you wanted it to be. Also, the rear-ends of old cars don't light up the way modern cars do when you brake. No center stoplight, smaller taillights in general. Most likely, that '53 DeSoto just has one light on either side, and one bulb does the functions of lighting up at night, getting brighter when you brake, and flashing when you use the turn signal. And if you paid extra, you might have a backup light. On a nicer car like a DeSoto, they might even give you two!

Even though the car behind you might be perfectly capable of stopping in time, the driver might not be capable of reacting in time. If they don't see a center brake light come on, it might not even register with them that the car in front is slowing down until it's too late. Call it the continuing dumbing-down of the driving public, I guess.

fintail

No doubt for some lucky cars with thoughtful owners, but I think many on their 4th or 5th owner aren't being cared for too meticulously. A slow trip downhill, they'll probably have a 20-25 year service life just like previous models.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Perhaps many are on the road because of the considerable amount of money put into them. They get much better care than Hyundais after all.

Mr_Shiftright

Oh, I doubt that you'll find any old Benz without a glove box full of repair and service receipts. It just goes with the territory. These are not cheap cars to fix, nor are they easy to work on. With some love they will give you decades of service because of the high build quality---but they do not tolerate either neglect or "monkey mechanics".

Heater core for an E320?----15 hours labor....ouch! In California money that's....well....half the value of the car.

Heater Core for a Toyota Camry? 1.7 hours labor.

BWM 528i? 5.8

fintail

What year of each car, and how common is a heater core failure? I've never known anyone who has experienced that - usually just electrical issues or a bad transmission that wasn't serviced by the book. A 1997 MB is a different animal from a 2013 model, and the older ones might have a longer lifespan, due to less computers - even if they have a better knack for rusting.

In CA, do you need a heater anyway?

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh, I doubt that you'll find any old Benz without a glove box full of repair and service receipts. It just goes with the territory. These are not cheap cars to fix, nor are they easy to work on. With some love they will give you decades of service because of the high build quality---but they do not tolerate either neglect or "monkey mechanics".

Heater core for an E320?----15 hours labor....ouch! In California money that's....well....half the value of the car.

Heater Core for a Toyota Camry? 1.7 hours labor.

BWM 528i? 5.8

fintail

Price is up there (you pay for exclusivity), but otherwise...want

Mr_Shiftright

Silly money, and IMO not terribly attractive. For all that trouble, they could have made it look better than a Ford Escort, don't you think? Benz has never made a nice-looking wagon. Maybe with the new styles, it's time to try again?

Oh, all the heater core prices were for 1997 automobiles. Repairing Benz HVAC systems is not for the faint-hearted.

I guess I was trying to make the point that if you keep a car long enough, all kinds of weird things start to happen. Age after all, does its damage as well as mileage.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

What year of each car, and how common is a heater core failure? I've never known anyone who has experienced that - usually just electrical issues or a bad transmission that wasn't serviced by the book. A 1997 MB is a different animal from a 2013 model, and the older ones might have a longer lifespan, due to less computers - even if they have a better knack for rusting.

Rust would be the least of my concerns on a 1997 MB because by then all major brands had designed their cars to reduce rust formation, and used rust resistant steel. The generally high maintenance costs for parts, and labor intensive designs, are significant deterrents for ownership of German cars. That has to be balanced off against the fact that they drive very nicely, look great and age well. For me it's a difficult call.

So far they've both been low maintenance, other than the fact that the Audi's engine was rebuilt, under warranty, due to ridiculously excessive oil consumption. I worry more about the future cost of ownership for our '07 A4 with 73,000 miles than our '99 TL with 151,000, but I enjoy driving the Audi more. Life would be so much simpler if it weren't for tradeoffs. I've adopted the attitude that I'll just enjoy them, and if either gets too expensive I'll just suck it up or trade it.

If I were to buy new a car today I'd seriously consider a high trim level Mazda 6, Accord EX-L 4-cylinder or a Camry XLE 4-cylinder.

jwilliams2

That is a classy looking wagon. Thanks for posting. I worked at a MB dealership in sales and sales management for 11 years after I retired and never heard of a heater core problem. Biggest problem with my '97 is some rust, which is common here in New England.

hpmctorque

jwilliams2 said:

That is a classy looking wagon. Thanks for posting. I worked at a MB dealership in sales and sales management for 11 years after I retired and never heard of a heater core problem. Biggest problem with my '97 is some rust, which is common here in New England.

As I mentioned in my previous post, rust doesn't seem to be a problem in the mid-Atlantic region, but maybe in New England and the upper Midwest it still is. However, I've been to Chicago many times in recent years. Rust used to be a serious problem there, but from my observations the problem is nowhere near as bad as before, say, the mid-1980s.

You mentioned "some rust." Is it light surface rust in one or two places, or is it more serious? Also, would you agree that if your MB rusted virtually any other '97 car you might have owned would also have rusted?

andre1969

fintail said:

What year of each car, and how common is a heater core failure? I've never known anyone who has experienced that - usually just electrical issues or a bad transmission that wasn't serviced by the book. A 1997 MB is a different animal from a 2013 model, and the older ones might have a longer lifespan, due to less computers - even if they have a better knack for rusting.

In CA, do you need a heater anyway?

I've been driving since 1986, probably owned about 20 cars (too lazy to tabulate it), ranging in model years from 1957 to 2012, and in that whole time, I've only had to replace one heater core.

That was in my 1980 Malibu, in 1989, and I remember it was about $225. Now, I'm sure it's possible that some of the cars I've owned have had heater core replacements at some point in their lives, before they came into my hands. But I've only experienced first-hand failure once.

So, I wonder how common a heater core failure is, on ANY car? Now, I have noticed at car shows, occasionally I'll see the heater hoses simply looped around on the engine block, an indication that the heater core doesn't work. So, it does happen. I imagine on a lot of old cars that aren't total restorations, but are still hobby cars, people simply bypass the heater core and do without heat. If it happened to one of my '79 New Yorkers, I'd probably do the same thing, although on my LeMans I'd probably get it fixed. The heat on my '67 Catalina doesn't work, but the mechanic told me that was a problem with the HVAC controls, not the heater core.

Also, I wonder what the going rate would be to replace a heater core on my old Malibu would be nowadays? Adjusting for inflation, that $225 would be around $430 in 2014 dollars.

ab348

I've had both of my collector cars require heater core replacement. I was driving my '68 Cutlass one cold day when the windshield fogged up and the sickly smell of antifreeze filled the cabin. I had a mechanic do that one for me. A year or so later, my '64 Skylark convertible suffered a similar fate and I decided to do it myself. It wasn't horrible but still a surprising amount of work - required removal of the RF wheel and the inner fender to gain access to the nuts holding the heater case. Once that was done work moved inside the car to actually replace the core, which was actually pretty easy. If they had designed it a bit differently so the attaching nuts for the case were in the cabin instead of the engine room, none of that preliminary work would have been needed. The car didn't have A/C so if it did maybe that would have complicated things.

One thing about the Skylark job - I ordered a replacement core from a local parts house I used for years that knew old cars. The dimensions matched what all sources, including the restoration parts supplier catalogs, said was what it needed, but it didn't fit. So I went back with the dead one and they hauled out the supplier catalog that listed all the dimensions. Turned out one listed for what I seem to recall was a '61 full-size Olds was a match. Ordered that in and it fit perfectly. Bizarre.

Michaell

andre1969 said:

fintail said:

What year of each car, and how common is a heater core failure? I've never known anyone who has experienced that - usually just electrical issues or a bad transmission that wasn't serviced by the book. A 1997 MB is a different animal from a 2013 model, and the older ones might have a longer lifespan, due to less computers - even if they have a better knack for rusting.

In CA, do you need a heater anyway?

I've been driving since 1986, probably owned about 20 cars (too lazy to tabulate it), ranging in model years from 1957 to 2012, and in that whole time, I've only had to replace one heater core.

That was in my 1980 Malibu, in 1989, and I remember it was about $225. Now, I'm sure it's possible that some of the cars I've owned have had heater core replacements at some point in their lives, before they came into my hands. But I've only experienced first-hand failure once.

So, I wonder how common a heater core failure is, on ANY car? Now, I have noticed at car shows, occasionally I'll see the heater hoses simply looped around on the engine block, an indication that the heater core doesn't work. So, it does happen. I imagine on a lot of old cars that aren't total restorations, but are still hobby cars, people simply bypass the heater core and do without heat. If it happened to one of my '79 New Yorkers, I'd probably do the same thing, although on my LeMans I'd probably get it fixed. The heat on my '67 Catalina doesn't work, but the mechanic told me that was a problem with the HVAC controls, not the heater core.

Also, I wonder what the going rate would be to replace a heater core on my old Malibu would be nowadays? Adjusting for inflation, that $225 would be around $430 in 2014 dollars.

I had the heater core in my '79 Sunbird fail on my while in was in Arizona attending college. I don't remember how much it cost to repair, though I do remember I had it done at a Sears Auto Repair center.

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

yeah I wasn't thinking just of acceleration but the handling and braking at those speeds. You'd have to be extremely careful. I think my worst fear would be getting rear-ended or rear-ending someone else who has 4-wheel disk brakes. I'd sure give the car in front a long lead time.

Just read a great story you wrote about your dad and his history with Packard.

Very interesting read.

jwilliams2

hpmctorque said:
You mentioned "some rust." Is it light surface rust in one or two places, or is it more serious? Also, would you agree that if your MB rusted virtually any other '97 car you might have owned would also have rusted?

Mine is surface rust, which is very common in New England due to the salt used on the roads in the Winter. Affects all makes. I envy those who live in warmer climates.

isellhondas

Michaell said:

andre1969 said:

fintail said:

What year of each car, and how common is a heater core failure? I've never known anyone who has experienced that - usually just electrical issues or a bad transmission that wasn't serviced by the book. A 1997 MB is a different animal from a 2013 model, and the older ones might have a longer lifespan, due to less computers - even if they have a better knack for rusting.

In CA, do you need a heater anyway?

I've been driving since 1986, probably owned about 20 cars (too lazy to tabulate it), ranging in model years from 1957 to 2012, and in that whole time, I've only had to replace one heater core.

That was in my 1980 Malibu, in 1989, and I remember it was about $225. Now, I'm sure it's possible that some of the cars I've owned have had heater core replacements at some point in their lives, before they came into my hands. But I've only experienced first-hand failure once.

So, I wonder how common a heater core failure is, on ANY car? Now, I have noticed at car shows, occasionally I'll see the heater hoses simply looped around on the engine block, an indication that the heater core doesn't work. So, it does happen. I imagine on a lot of old cars that aren't total restorations, but are still hobby cars, people simply bypass the heater core and do without heat. If it happened to one of my '79 New Yorkers, I'd probably do the same thing, although on my LeMans I'd probably get it fixed. The heat on my '67 Catalina doesn't work, but the mechanic told me that was a problem with the HVAC controls, not the heater core.

Also, I wonder what the going rate would be to replace a heater core on my old Malibu would be nowadays? Adjusting for inflation, that $225 would be around $430 in 2014 dollars.

I had the heater core in my '79 Sunbird fail on my while in was in Arizona attending college. I don't remember how much it cost to repair, though I do remember I had it done at a Sears Auto Repair center.

I know a guy who had a Peugeot 604. He was told it was a 12 hour job to replace his leaking heater core so figure at today's labor rates and the cost of the heater core, this would probably be around a 1500.00 job! He poured in a can of Bar's leak and the car another year or so without any more leaks and finally traded it in.

hpmctorque

jwilliams2 said:

hpmctorque said:
You mentioned "some rust." Is it light surface rust in one or two places, or is it more serious? Also, would you agree that if your MB rusted virtually any other '97 car you might have owned would also have rusted?

Mine is surface rust, which is very common in New England due to the salt used on the roads in the Winter. Affects all makes. I envy those who live in warmer climates.

Then it's a cosmetic issue, not a structural one. Since your car is 17 years old, that's not surprising in New England.

Michaell

hpmctorque said:

jwilliams2 said:

hpmctorque said:
You mentioned "some rust." Is it light surface rust in one or two places, or is it more serious? Also, would you agree that if your MB rusted virtually any other '97 car you might have owned would also have rusted?

Mine is surface rust, which is very common in New England due to the salt used on the roads in the Winter. Affects all makes. I envy those who live in warmer climates.

Then it's a cosmetic issue, not a structural one. Since your car is 17 years old, that's not surprising in New England.

Warmer climates are not necessarily better. I grew up in Southern California. The salt in the air from the ocean did a number on older cars.

I imagine it's the same in the Southeast.

Warm and dry? Different story, I should think.

fintail

Some old MBs can rust. W210s and W202s are known to go at wheelarches, where bumper and fenders meet (typical rust nests), and some suspension components, especially the "spring perch". It won't rust like an old car where the floors and rockers go, but in harsh climates, some design flaws can show.

I'd be more leery keeping an old Audi than most MB or BMW, if anything, for parts supplies.

hpmctorque said:

Rust would be the least of my concerns on a 1997 MB because by then all major brands had designed their cars to reduce rust formation, and used rust resistant steel. The generally high maintenance costs for parts, and labor intensive designs, are significant deterrents for ownership of German cars. That has to be balanced off against the fact that they drive very nicely, look great and age well. For me it's a difficult call.


If I were to buy new a car today I'd seriously consider a high trim level Mazda 6, Accord EX-L 4-cylinder or a Camry XLE 4-cylinder.

fintail

The new wagons are good looking, W211 onwards are pretty classy vehicles. The new C wagon (probably not for NA) is attractive. You'd be a hit at even a nationwide MBCA event in that W126 conversion. I bet it eventually sells, at a discount, of course.

Mr_Shiftright said:

Silly money, and IMO not terribly attractive. For all that trouble, they could have made it look better than a Ford Escort, don't you think? Benz has never made a nice-looking wagon. Maybe with the new styles, it's time to try again?

Oh, all the heater core prices were for 1997 automobiles. Repairing Benz HVAC systems is not for the faint-hearted.

I guess I was trying to make the point that if you keep a car long enough, all kinds of weird things start to happen. Age after all, does its damage as well as mileage.

explorerx4

My neighbor had a late 90's S class. The front spring towers rusted out and the springs popped out or up through the hood. Mercedes did take care of it, although the car was maybe 7 - 8 years old and had a lot of miles on it.

fintail

I want to say my dad did a heater core on his 60 Country Sedan - did it himself, as he found price in saving money, and I think he enjoyed the challenge. I remember that car leaking coolant into the footwell shortly after he bought it, which sounds right.

I've never had a car lose that part. On many older cars, the cost would likely exceed the value of the car.

andre1969 said:

<
I've been driving since 1986, probably owned about 20 cars (too lazy to tabulate it), ranging in model years from 1957 to 2012, and in that whole time, I've only had to replace one heater core.



Also, I wonder what the going rate would be to replace a heater core on my old Malibu would be nowadays? Adjusting for inflation, that $225 would be around $430 in 2014 dollars.

lemko

andre1969 said:

I kinda like that '56 Studebaker. Dumb question though...were they actually cost-cutting so much by that time that they didn't put armrests on the front doors? Or maybe it was re-upholstered at some point, and they never put the armrests back on? It has them in the rear doors, plus a pull-down armrest in the center in back, so not seeing armrests up front looks odd.

Also, in a twisted sort of way, I'll confess that I like a few things about that rodded out '94 Corolla. Interior is totally tacky, but I kinda like the body flaring and what they tried to do with the front-end. I think it needs a bit more massaging to be more tasteful, but it was an interesting idea, at least.

Oh, as for that '53-54 Mopar in the woods, yeah, most likely a Plymouth. I'm guessing a '53, judging by what little I can make out of the trim. The ad says "V-8", but Plymouth didn't get a V-8 until 1955. But, the ad also says "1951 Dodge",..

Andre, you're going to want to check out the latest edition of "Collectible Automobile." They have a feature on the 1953-1954 DeSotos.

Mr_Shiftright

Thanks! There was a lot I couldn't put in there about the last dying gasps of Packard--it's a very sad story of corruption, pension-looting, and sinister undercurrents. This debacle was in fact the inspiration for the ERISA legislation ( The Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) is a federal law that sets minimum standards for most voluntarily established pension and health plans in private industry to provide protection for individuals in these plans.)

Maybe next article!

isellhondas said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

yeah I wasn't thinking just of acceleration but the handling and braking at those speeds. You'd have to be extremely careful. I think my worst fear would be getting rear-ended or rear-ending someone else who has 4-wheel disk brakes. I'd sure give the car in front a long lead time.

Just read a great story you wrote about your dad and his history with Packard.

Very interesting read.

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

Thanks! There was a lot I couldn't put in there about the last dying gasps of Packard--it's a very sad story of corruption, pension-looting, and sinister undercurrents. This debacle was in fact the inspiration for the ERISA legislation ( The Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA) is a federal law that sets minimum standards for most voluntarily established pension and health plans in private industry to provide protection for individuals in these plans.)

Maybe next article!

Where can one find this article?

Mr_Shiftright

Current issue of Classic Car---also a very interesting article on the history of the Chrysler Imperial.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

Some old MBs can rust. W210s and W202s are known to go at wheelarches, where bumper and fenders meet (typical rust nests), and some suspension components, especially the "spring perch". It won't rust like an old car where the floors and rockers go, but in harsh climates, some design flaws can show.

I'd be more leery keeping an old Audi than most MB or BMW, if anything, for parts supplies.

hpmctorque said:

Rust would be the least of my concerns on a 1997 MB because by then all major brands had designed their cars to reduce rust formation, and used rust resistant steel. The generally high maintenance costs for parts, and labor intensive designs, are significant deterrents for ownership of German cars. That has to be balanced off against the fact that they drive very nicely, look great and age well. For me it's a difficult call.


If I were to buy new a car today I'd seriously consider a high trim level Mazda 6, Accord EX-L 4-cylinder or a Camry XLE 4-cylinder.

My experience with my E30 supports what you say regarding parts supplies. I never had problems getting new parts for my '87 E30. BMW does a great job supporting owners of its older cars, and I know MB is, if anything, even better.

My Audi is not old enough for me to have experienced a parts problem but, fortunately, I haven't needed any, other than oil filters, since the car has been out of warranty. I'm under no illusion that I won't need parts in the future or that I'll beat the averages, but I think that Audi parts will be readily available at least through the car's 10th year. After that, it may start to be more challenging.

The bigger issue going forward, as the car continues to depreciate and repairs become more frequent, will probably be determining when repairs are no longer justifiable. That's true of any car, but especially high maintenance cars. I'm thinking there's a reasonable chance we'll get 100,000-125,000 miles out of our A4. The car has been maintained in strict accordance with the owners manual. In addition, where the manual states the transmission and Quattro system fluids are good for the life of the car (don't require changing), I had these fluids replaced at 60,000 and 66,000 miles, respectively. Neither my wife nor I are aggressive drivers, although I'm not shy about using the passing lane.

Circling back to cars I'd seriously consider if I were in the market, I'd add the BMW 320i and Mercedes C250, with RWD, to the ones I listed. It would depend, after test drives, on whether the driving experience would be worth the extra cost if ownership. If I chose one of these I'd prefer to switch to winter tires over AWD for the cold months.

fintail

Got the fintail back today - cold start valve was indeed the issue. Seems to be running fine now. Also got new plugs and a new battery - they even repainted the battery frame. Good day for the car, I treated it to some fresh gas (has barely been driven in 3 months).

fintail

Maker support for MB combined with huge aftermarket and enthusiast bases (same for BMW) make the cars easier to run into old age than most - at least for the handy DIYer. I can still get stuff from the dealer for my fintail, pretty crazy.

Your Audi could hit 125K++ easily, with few big issues. You maintain it and don't abuse it. Such cars don't always have mature owners, and that shortens their lifespan.

W204 C250 should have a depreciation plunge soon, then level off - a new model always does it. That design aged pretty well, and seems to hold up.

hpmctorque said:

Circling back to cars I'd seriously consider if I were in the market, I'd add the BMW 320i and Mercedes C250, with RWD, to the ones I listed. It would depend, after test drives, on whether the driving experience would be worth the extra cost if ownership. If I chose one of these I'd prefer to switch to winter tires over AWD for the cold months.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

Maker support for MB combined with huge aftermarket and enthusiast bases (same for BMW) make the cars easier to run into old age than most - at least for the handy DIYer. I can still get stuff from the dealer for my fintail, pretty crazy.

Your Audi could hit 125K++ easily, with few big issues. You maintain it and don't abuse it. Such cars don't always have mature owners, and that shortens their lifespan.

W204 C250 should have a depreciation plunge soon, then level off - a new model always does it. That design aged pretty well, and seems to hold up.

hpmctorque said:

Circling back to cars I'd seriously consider if I were in the market, I'd add the BMW 320i and Mercedes C250, with RWD, to the ones I listed. It would depend, after test drives, on whether the driving experience would be worth the extra cost if ownership. If I chose one of these I'd prefer to switch to winter tires over AWD for the cold months.

Regarding parts support, at the same time (3-4 years ago) that I owned the '87 E30 I also owned a '88 Nissan 300 ZX. Most new parts were unavailable from Nissan, beginning ~year 2000. The '84-'89 ZXs (Z31) were on the same platform, and the '88 and '89 were virtually identical. So, once dealers sold their inventories of Z31 parts, OEM parts became virtually unobtainable because Nissan had stopped producing them before the Z32 went into production. As you probably know the 1990 Z32s used a new platform. My experience was that the dismissive attitude of the Nissan parts managers contrasted with that of the BMW parts guys.

It was similar for the service departments. I generally use independent mechanics, but on occasion I had maintenance and repairs done by the dealers. The Nissan dealers I visited had no problem with routine things like oil changes, but didn't care to bother with non-routine issues, whereas the local BMW dealer service department welcomed the business.

From what I've heard Audi is more similar to Nissan than BMW in terms of OEM parts. Dealers vary on servicing older models, with some being more accommodative than others.

The A4 went to a new platform for '09, so I should have no problem obtaining OEM parts at least through '18, and probably something beyond that.

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

Current issue of Classic Car---also a very interesting article on the history of the Chrysler Imperial.

Ah. It was sitting right here, having come in the mail earlier in the week. It is an enjoyable piece. Interesting to read about the "field engineering" correspondence he would send to the factory and the thank-you correspondence he would get in reply. Business was done differently back then. I think you should buy that white Packard.

Mr_Shiftright

yes, the automobile business was different back then. It was a slower pace, that's for sure. In a way, just when Packard was dying, the automobile in general was entering a more modern world. And certainly the way cars were sold and repaired was rapidly changing.

isellhondas

Michaell said:

hpmctorque said:

jwilliams2 said:

hpmctorque said:
You mentioned "some rust." Is it light surface rust in one or two places, or is it more serious? Also, would you agree that if your MB rusted virtually any other '97 car you might have owned would also have rusted?

Mine is surface rust, which is very common in New England due to the salt used on the roads in the Winter. Affects all makes. I envy those who live in warmer climates.

Then it's a cosmetic issue, not a structural one. Since your car is 17 years old, that's not surprising in New England.

Warmer climates are not necessarily better. I grew up in Southern California. The salt in the air from the ocean did a number on older cars.

I imagine it's the same in the Southeast.

Warm and dry? Different story, I should think.

I grew up in So. California too, right by the ocean in San Pedro. I never saw any rust on cars but I remember a lot of chrome pitting.

isellhondas

Remember this Buick?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/4762834944.html

This has been on CL for at least two years running now.

Same photos, same price.

Maybe I'll take a look and offer him a grand for it if it runs well.

With my luck he would agree to that!

Mr_Shiftright

If it runs really well and has no serious needs I'd say fair market appraised value is about $2,750.

If on the other hand it has serious frame rust or other major items, then less.

isellhondas said:

Remember this Buick?
http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/4762834944.html

This has been on CL for at least two years running now.

Same photos, same price.

Maybe I'll take a look and offer him a grand for it if it runs well.

With my luck he would agree to that!

fintail

By 2020, you'll probably be tired of it anyway

My local MB dealer has monitors in the waiting area that show the service bays - when I was there last week, I saw a 450SL in there. They'll gladly take anything too, but for larger jobs, if you have to ask how much, you can't afford it.

That old Buick is a cool survivor, but needs a deduction for too much paint patina. Knock it down at least enough for some work to be done. Even if it drives fine, the look might be too much.

Speaking of project cars, I drove the fintail a little today - seems fine now. I missed driving it.

hpmctorque said:

than others.

The A4 went to a new platform for '09, so I should have no problem obtaining OEM parts at least through '18, and probably something beyond that.

Mr_Shiftright

I saw a 450SL sell the other day. It was an absolutely pristine, low mileage example. Looks like a new car or maybe a car one year old. SOLD for $12,500. That's a good price for a 450SL.

The one you want is the 560SL. I personally don't like the V-8 SLs. I find them lacking in the Mercedes "character and personality". Even the sedans have more soul.

fintail said:

By 2020, you'll probably be tired of it anyway

My local MB dealer has monitors in the waiting area that show the service bays - when I was there last week, I saw a 450SL in there. They'll gladly take anything too, but for larger jobs, if you have to ask how much, you can't afford it.

That old Buick is a cool survivor, but needs a deduction for too much paint patina. Knock it down at least enough for some work to be done. Even if it drives fine, the look might be too much.

Speaking of project cars, I drove the fintail a little today - seems fine now. I missed driving it.

hpmctorque said:

than others.

The A4 went to a new platform for '09, so I should have no problem obtaining OEM parts at least through '18, and probably something beyond that.

fintail

107s devalue catastrophically for every step below imperfection, too. 12K is good for one, not too far off a nice 560SL.

560SL might be best for what the cars really are, boulevard cruisers. US never got the R107 280SL, but I have seen grey market examples.

Mr_Shiftright said:

I saw a 450SL sell the other day. It was an absolutely pristine, low mileage example. Looks like a new car or maybe a car one year old. SOLD for $12,500. That's a good price for a 450SL.

The one you want is the 560SL. I personally don't like the V-8 SLs. I find them lacking in the Mercedes "character and personality". Even the sedans have more soul.

fintail

I went to the auto auction this morning to check out a few weirdos - I went there mostly to see this:



1976 450 SEL, non-runner (ignition system problems, no surprise), 170K miles - but it honestly could have passed for 50K. No rust, obviously garaged, arrow straight body with a quality looking original color repaint, clean interior, perfect dash, many books and records including dealer servicing to ~100K. That's a period correct European delivery badge on the grille. Might make a good base for a franken-Benz (just lose the bumpers), or a great parts car if it could be picked up for about scrap value, say no more than $750 or so. I hope someone does something with it.

Here's something not seen every day:



This was actually quite clean, everything seemed to work, had the funky pump up seats. I bet parts sourcing can be fun, and some details showed this wasn't as exotic as the ads claimed (stickers on the sill plates).

91K miles on this thing that 25 years ago filled the role of silly CUVs, it was fairly immaculate - maybe an estate car:



Indicated 50K on this, could have been original - the bordello velvet/velour was pretty clean:



And to finish, the 90s in vehicle form:



One of the most painfully awkward front ends on a relatively modern (does 20+ years old count anymore?) car. 84K, very clean, started and ran nicely - possibly out of an estate, not many left.

hpmctorque

fintail said:

I went to the auto auction this morning to check out a few weirdos - I went there mostly to see this:



1976 450 SEL, non-runner (ignition system problems, no surprise), 170K miles - but it honestly could have passed for 50K. No rust, obviously garaged, arrow straight body with a quality looking original color repaint, clean interior, perfect dash, many books and records including dealer servicing to ~100K. That's a period correct European delivery badge on the grille. Might make a good base for a franken-Benz (just lose the bumpers), or a great parts car if it could be picked up for about scrap value, say no more than $750 or so. I hope someone does something with it.

Here's something not seen every day:



This was actually quite clean, everything seemed to work, had the funky pump up seats. I bet parts sourcing can be fun, and some details showed this wasn't as exotic as the ads claimed (stickers on the sill plates).

91K miles on this thing that 25 years ago filled the role of silly CUVs, it was fairly immaculate - maybe an estate car:



Indicated 50K on this, could have been original - the bordello velvet/velour was pretty clean:



And to finish, the 90s in vehicle form:



One of the most painfully awkward front ends on a relatively modern (does 20+ years old count anymore?) car. 84K, very clean, started and ran nicely - possibly out of an estate, not many left.

I like that circa 1992 or 1993 Buick for its uniqueness, including its weird but neat looking dashboard.

Yesterday I spotted an Acura Vigor. Also, a early 1990s Chrysler New Yorker Fifth Avenue (K-car derivative), white with white vinyl roof, driven by an elderly lady sitting really close to the steering wheel. Not too many of either of those remaining.

stickguy

I like some of those dogs for one reason or another, but I would walk before I drove that Buick. Just awful.

have not seen a Scorpio in the wild in a very long time.

berri

Wasn't that Buick a George Castanza car on Seinfeld

Mr_Shiftright

That Toyota wagon might be a good buy. With the Benz you bettah off just buying a running one for $4,000--$6000 in good shape.

fintail

Yep, he had one of those, and a Regal as well. Apparently Frank Costanza also had a Skylark.

blockquote class="Quote" rel="berri">Wasn't that Buick a George Castanza car on Seinfeld

fintail

That's the problem with the old MB - a minty 50K mile original would be worth maybe 5-6K. Parts car then, I just cringe at the thought of it being crushed. It also had a cool Becker Mexico radio with an auxillary cassette player in the glove box.

Mr_Shiftright said:

That Toyota wagon might be a good buy. With the Benz you bettah off just buying a running one for $4,000--$6000 in good shape.