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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,558
    George also had a Contour. I remember that from an episode where it is dead in his parking spot outside Yankee stadium.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    So many subtleties in so many areas on that TV show!
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,174
    Was it a Contour or Mystique? I also remember Frank Costanza had the mint Granada or Monarch that got trashed when George parked in a handicap spot. And Kramer had a rare 73 airbag Impala. I wonder if Jerry, a big car enthusiast, did any car casting.
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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,558
    could have been a Mystique. My memory is not that good any more!

    I remember the airbag Chevy. And Jerry had the SAAB convertible.

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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2014
    And the Caddy that wound up in the canal (?) in Florida.

    And the John (sic) Voight 1989 Chrysler LeBaron Convertible.
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    berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I think Frank Castanza also had a Mercury Grand Marquis or some such. Back in those days it seemed like the SAAB was a very east coast car in the US, so perhaps that's why Jerry had one on the show. Those era SAAB's did have some idiosyncrasies just like the Jerry Seinfeld character on the show.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,174
    Yep, Jerry also had the BMW E32 that had the odor problem.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh they won't crush it. It'll go to a yard that holds onto them--a specialist. But you know, all wrecking yards value their space--so if parts don't fly off that thing, THEN they might crush it. And really, who's to blame for that?
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,174
    As long as the interior and trim gets saved, that's good enough - the seats and dash in that seemed too nice to ruin. The radio has a little value. I know some specialist breakers hoard the difficult bits. Nobody is really to blame, the market isn't strong on 12mpg disco era barges from any maker. It's just sad to see the intrinsic value wasted - that thing would have been a serious car when new.
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Oh they won't crush it. It'll go to a yard that holds onto them--a specialist. But you know, all wrecking yards value their space--so if parts don't fly off that thing, THEN they might crush it. And really, who's to blame for that?

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    It's a kind of spiral downwards for cars like this. They aren't worth enough to motivate any sane person to restore one, so they fall into disrepair. Then they go to specialty breakers who can sell some of the "universal parts" that will fit more valuable old Mercedes. But after that flourish, the car just sits in their yard because (full circle) nobody is restoring 450SELs. So then they get scrapped.

    The wrecking yard (at least the professionally-run ones) value their ground space. They don't let anything in there that's not going to make money in a hurry.

    Perhaps one day, when you can't find 20 450SELs on craigslist anymore, then their value will go up---like what happened, to some degree, to the old ponton Benzes. They still aren't really valuable, but you don't have to give them away anymore.
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    Re: "Ponton" Benzes - I just read an article in a British classic car magazine, it said the Ponton's name came from the front subframe resembling a pontoon bridge structure...that just sounds WAY too complicated. Your thoughts?
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited November 2014
    Nah, it refers to the styling of the fenders I think. "Ponton" or "pontoon" styling was a 30s, 40s and 50s thing. It was a feature that developed after running boards were eliminated. You could, for instance, call a Volvo 544 a "ponton".
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    That makes much better sense to me...
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Yeah it does make sense. If you look at these "ponton" cars, at least in the early stages of the trend, the front fender extends back into the driver's door--looking ever so much like a pontoon on a seaplane.
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    omarmanomarman Member Posts: 2,702
    Re: cars and intrinsic things from Germany and Detroit circa 1976
    fintail said:

    It's just sad to see the intrinsic value wasted - that thing would have been a serious car when new.

    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Oh they won't crush it. It'll go to a yard that holds onto them--a specialist. But you know, all wrecking yards value their space--so if parts don't fly off that thing, THEN they might crush it. And really, who's to blame for that?

    I like that 450 SEL and I think it was priced over $30K when new. But Fintail or Shifty would have a better estimate of that. Still even without knowing the actual selling price of a 70s car, I like running the "Jeep Test" for a quick snapshot comparison of both market value and the perception of a car's "intrinsic goodness" or however that should be worded.

    Jeeps were "loved then and loved now" and they still make a good measuring stick for both cash value in the market and that "right stuff" cache which makes some vehicles a must-have commodity for car freaks. If America didn't make a Jeep back in 1976 then the alternative universe would have invented something exactly like it! "The Bicentennial 1976 General Purpose Pygmy," or something...Whatever they would have called it, it would have still been a J-E-E-freakin'-P! Jeep.

    So I start the test by using Shifty's method of an ebay search for completed sales. And since we're looking at 1976 Mercedes, I also plugged in the 1976 Jeep to make it a proper Jeep Test comparison. Similar to the CJ Jeeps, there seems to be love for the MB SL but that's about it from the Fatherland. A survivor Jeep Cherokee with over 125K miles is in bigger demand than any MB sedan. There was even a completed sale for a non-running, Wagoneer barn find which sold for about the same price as an actual running/driving 450 SEL.

    So beyond cash value, I'm wondering if the way people measure the intrinsic value or "goodness" of these things depends on where they were built and how well these things reflect the nature of their country of origin? Are all Jeeps worth more in America in the way that old MB sedans are worth more in Germany? Back in the 80's, a nice couple that I knew (lawyer and a teacher) bought two (2) new Renault cars. At the same time and on purpose. That's never a good idea when you live in Ohio. But in France I might have done the same with the Peugeot dealer, who knows?



    A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I'm sure there's a home field advantage to car values but essentially value is driven by the age-old equation of supply and demand. Here in the USA, just about everyone who wants a 450SEL has one, so the market for them stagnates, or falls. In Germany, maybe there are more lookers than cars, so the prices have the potential to go up.

    There's no better test of a car's popularity than eBay. If you advertise a 450SEL for $10,000 and nobody bids on it, you have just been rejected by the entire world. So the price has to come down.
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    xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,798
    edited November 2014
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    That Toyota wagon might be a good buy. With the Benz you bettah off just buying a running one for $4,000--$6000 in good shape.

    Yeah, that Toyota looks like it could be a good one. Was it an AWD? If so, heck, I'd be all over that. Those got pretty decent fuel economy with very usable space. I think that's a Camry, isn't it? Maybe a '90 or '91. Not particularly common even when new, but the Corolla wagons seemed to be everywhere.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2014
    Meanwhile, back in the high desert:

    61 Galaxie Sunliner Convertible

    Jeep Commando 1973 V8

    Classic 1957 Oldsmobile 88
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    61 Galaxie Sunliner Convertible -- you'll never come out on this one at any price. Parts

    Jeep Commando 1973 V8 -- not bad, but price should be about $5995

    Classic 1957 Oldsmobile 88 -- try $4995, take $4,000 if it's real money.
    stever said:

    Meanwhile, back in the high desert:

    61 Galaxie Sunliner Convertible

    Jeep Commando 1973 V8

    Classic 1957 Oldsmobile 88

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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,558
    nice mix of wheels on that Galaxie. True about the desert. If that spent it's life in Jersey and sat outside, there would be nothing left other than some rust powder.

    I kind of like the Jeep. Just needs a manual trans!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Uno más - yet another "rare" bird.

    1966 Thunderbird Landau
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,174
    Some things, like Jeeps, have a huge enthusiast base, and are simple/inexpensive to keep going. Iconic design helps too. Kind of like with Harleys - many better bikes are much cheaper, but HDs still bring the money, and you'll have no problem selling a used one, even if it's a heap.

    The W116 in that condition would bring only a few grand even in Europe - but they'd love to have those clean body panels and leather interior.

    Good point about supply and demand by Shifty, too. It seems 90% of those cars survived.

    omarman said:

    Re: cars and intrinsic things from Germany and Detroit circa 1976


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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,174
    Camry, 1989, FWD. I don't recall a Camry All-Trac wagon, but I remember the sedans. There's an AWD Camry nowadays, it's called the Venza.
    xwesx said:

    Mr_Shiftright said:

    That Toyota wagon might be a good buy. With the Benz you bettah off just buying a running one for $4,000--$6000 in good shape.

    Yeah, that Toyota looks like it could be a good one. Was it an AWD? If so, heck, I'd be all over that. Those got pretty decent fuel economy with very usable space. I think that's a Camry, isn't it? Maybe a '90 or '91. Not particularly common even when new, but the Corolla wagons seemed to be everywhere.
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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,095
    I saw an ancient Toyota wagon here last week. It had Alberta plates so it escaped the ravages of road salt that took those off the roads here 15-20 years ago. I thought at first it was a late-80s Camry wagon but looking at pics of those now, I think it was actually an early-80s Corolla wagon. Can't remember the last time I saw one of those here.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

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    gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,286
    Some things available on Long Island

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4763033141.html "near perfect car"

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4761970873.html People loves these but probably too far gone given it's garden variety and AT

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4765686195.html English major here. Damn shame

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4765736982.html Snow is coming

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4757886958.html Looks like a decent cruiser

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4741362091.html Looks beautiful but is this money sane?

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4765255816.html I thought that Baldwin Motion was long gone by now

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4749301360.html 'Most of the work done'

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4748034712.html Never see this driving around anymore

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4764945418.html Looks dated by still stylish

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4732545012.html Almost forgot about these. Could it possibly be enjoyable by today's standards?

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4764853815.html Another forgotten car. If you loved these when new, I guess this is worth $3800 now

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4736683968.html Rough deal

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4744364545.html Seeing these more and more. Can they actually go? Certainly doesn't look like a good investment for the builder
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    xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,798
    fintail said:

    Camry, 1989, FWD. I don't recall a Camry All-Trac wagon, but I remember the sedans. There's an AWD Camry nowadays, it's called the Venza

    Yeah, 1991 was the last year for the All-Trac Camry in any form. I don't recall whether they had wagons with AWD, though. The wagon wasn't something I saw regularly, regardless of drivetrain.

    Corolla wagons, though... EVERYWHERE. I still see those on the road here fairly regularly. Perhaps not daily any longer, but at least weekly. They seem to have just as good of longevity as old Subaru wagons. Perhaps it is just that there weren't as many of them on the roads here to start with that accounts for their somewhat rarer appearance, but people create labors of love out of them just to keep 'em going.

    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,095
    Some really oddball stuff there. The deal is the Reatta, if the electronic dash works. Maybe the Blazer depending on the transfer case issue.

    I can't get my head around the Corolla at the end of the list.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,558
    I love the TR6. I always wanted one of those. But not at that money, no matter how nice it is (though that one looks about as good as you can get).

    otherwise some sad stuff. The GLH I always thought was fun. Maybe because when I was in HS my parents got an Omni. Absolute base model 4 speed though. Not quite as fast!

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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    bhill2bhill2 Member Posts: 2,473
    stever said:

    Uno más - yet another "rare" bird.

    1966 Thunderbird Landau

    Note to seller. Don't give me "AC - needs Freon". If it just needs Freon, put the Freon in and have a car that blows cold. Otherwise, well, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.

    2009 BMW 335i, 2003 Corvette cnv. (RIP 2001 Jaguar XK8 cnv and 1985 MB 380SE [the best of the lot])

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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2014
    My Quest needed Freon when I sold it a few months back.

    It needed Freon because it had a leak...d'oh. The kid who bought it didn't seem to care when I told him the AC was shot.
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    fintailfintail Member Posts: 57,174
    The Camry wagons seemed to sell OK in western WA, even the weird 1992+ model with dual rear wipers. Seems so exotic compared to modern Toyotas.

    I went to school and lived in Bellingham for a few years - I think about 25% of the vehicle population there was 88-92 Corolla wagons, maybe half of those All-Trac. A place now that is probably 50% Subaru.
    xwesx said:


    Yeah, 1991 was the last year for the All-Trac Camry in any form. I don't recall whether they had wagons with AWD, though. The wagon wasn't something I saw regularly, regardless of drivetrain.

    Corolla wagons, though... EVERYWHERE. I still see those on the road here fairly regularly. Perhaps not daily any longer, but at least weekly. They seem to have just as good of longevity as old Subaru wagons. Perhaps it is just that there weren't as many of them on the roads here to start with that accounts for their somewhat rarer appearance, but people create labors of love out of them just to keep 'em going.

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    hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    fintail said:

    As long as the interior and trim gets saved, that's good enough - the seats and dash in that seemed too nice to ruin. The radio has a little value. I know some specialist breakers hoard the difficult bits. Nobody is really to blame, the market isn't strong on 12mpg disco era barges from any maker. It's just sad to see the intrinsic value wasted - that thing would have been a serious car when new.

    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Oh they won't crush it. It'll go to a yard that holds onto them--a specialist. But you know, all wrecking yards value their space--so if parts don't fly off that thing, THEN they might crush it. And really, who's to blame for that?

    The market is very efficient on used vehicles. Individual or collective emotions are factored into the prices, then supply and demand, comprised of countless variables, decides the fate of vehicles.

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Some folks can't face the reality of the wrecking yard---when it's your time, it's your time.
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    hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    Some folks can't face the reality of the wrecking yard---when it's your time, it's your time.

    Kind of like mortality. Me? If I can't take my favorite car with me I ain't going.

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    gsemikegsemike Member Posts: 2,286
    Not a project but good weekend toy?

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4757767429.html
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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,950
    why is everything a question mark?? Does the seller not KNOW the number of miles and gears?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Lotta miles. Price seems fair enough. I'd say somewhat risky.
    gsemike said:

    Not a project but good weekend toy?

    http://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/4757767429.html

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    ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,095
    qbrozen said:

    why is everything a question mark?? Does the seller not KNOW the number of miles and gears?

    Must be a very questionable car. ;)

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Mr_Shiftright said:

    61 Galaxie Sunliner Convertible -- you'll never come out on this one at any price. Parts

    Jeep Commando 1973 V8 -- not bad, but price should be about $5995

    Classic 1957 Oldsmobile 88 -- try $4995, take $4,000 if it's real money.

    stever said:

    Meanwhile, back in the high desert:

    61 Galaxie Sunliner Convertible

    Jeep Commando 1973 V8

    Classic 1957 Oldsmobile 88

    Oh...but....Shifty....that 57 Olds is a "classic" don't you know that?
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    xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 16,798
    qbrozen said:

    why is everything a question mark?? Does the seller not KNOW the number of miles and gears?

    The best part of that is the seller's inclusion of the following statement (after all of those "questions"):

    *no stupid questions

    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100, 1976 Ford F250
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well it IS a classic--- a 4-door kinda rough classic.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Parts is parts

    Oh, you're a Chevy fan?

    Trade for a couple of tailgates?
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    stickguystickguy Member Posts: 50,558
    The Chevy one doesn't look very comfortable. I like the GMC better.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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    qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 32,950
    on that mustang, BTW - about $4500 trade value, at best. So $5500 is about where I'd hit it private-party. Still the old 4.6, so should be damned reliable as far as the expensive bits are concerned. Still a buttload of miles for any car, though.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '08 Charger R/T Daytona; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '08 Maser QP; '11 Mini Cooper S

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    isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Paging our resident Packard expert....

    I've always liked these beasts.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Packard-sedan-4-door-1949-packard-series-23-2362-runs-and-drives-great-/111519156866?forcerrptr=true&hash=item19f70f4a82&item=111519156866&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

    I'm thinking the costs of even making this into a driver would probably exceed it's value.

    What do you think?
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    texasestexases Member Posts: 10,711
    For $4k I think one could find a much less rusted one. So yes, way more $$ to fix than it'd be worth.
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited November 2014
    72 nova 80,000 original miles (nice desert patina)

    And the one I want:

    1965 Karmann Ghia - $12000
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Hopeless for restoration. The chrome alone would easily exceed the purchase price of the vehicle.

    I know of the same year car in much better shape for sale for $7500

    These can be nice driving cars if you get one with overdrive. That straight 8 has enough torque to pull down a house. You can even lay down a nice patch. And if you hit something, you'll only hear about it through an e-mail notice, because you'll never know it.

    isellhondas said:

    Paging our resident Packard expert....

    I've always liked these beasts.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Packard-sedan-4-door-1949-packard-series-23-2362-runs-and-drives-great-/111519156866?forcerrptr=true&hash=item19f70f4a82&item=111519156866&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

    I'm thinking the costs of even making this into a driver would probably exceed it's value.

    What do you think?

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    explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 19,323
    @stever, The Nova has only 80k, because nobody ever wanted to drive it.
    Karmann Ghia looks great!
    2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    That Ghia is cute---of course, wrong paint, wrong interior and I think wrong engine---but only the purists care. Biggest thing to check for is rust. And in New Mexico, those heater boxes had better be in top shape or you'll be using the ice scraper on the *inside* of the windshield.

    These are unibody cars with welded-on rear fenders, so any bodywork is going to be much more costly than a vintage VW bug.

    If it's real nice, price could be fair enough. Were it of show quality AND authentically restored, it would be a bargain price at $12K.
    stever said:

    72 nova 80,000 original miles (nice desert patina)

    And the one I want:

    1965 Karmann Ghia - $12000

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