Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

isellhondas

I bought the BMW on a whim when I was looking for a cheap car for a 75 year old woman down on her luck. I saw the BMW on CL and said WOW! It was in Bellevue in Somerset and since I was heading to Bellevue for a haircut I decided to stop and see it.

I was SHOCKED at it's condition! It looks like a two year old car and I get 10 years of receipts on it. Owned by a professional woman and never spent a day out of the garage. Even where she worked.

So...I bought it and have driven it less than 100 miles since then. It's just not "me" and I have a hankering for something old again.

You asked if the CEL light is on? OF COURSE IT IS! It's a BMW isn't it?

The CEL comes and go's but the airbag light is on constantly. My last BMW did the same thing and it was an inexpensive switch. I remember the guy telling me that the switch is the culprit most of the time. The computer tells me (sometimes) that I have a brake light out and I don't.

Some misguided person must have had the gall to install a (gasp) aftermarket bulb.

Yeah, I'll wait for spring.

I ran it on CL late in summer and a couple of strokes responded. A woman called asking if it would be a good car to commute from Seattle to Olympia every day. I told her to find a Honda or a Toyota and to stay away from ANYTHING European that isn't new or almost new.

fintail

A BMW can give one a haircut too, especially as it ages. 16 year old BMW convertible for a 100+ mile daily round trip on a road that is often a horrible crushing grind? You're gonna get wet, and you're gonna get mad.

Hopefully the next prospective buyer will be used to quirks, and will understand Germanic false positive dashboard lights. My E55 would do the burnt out light thing now and then, one of the two license plates would get just a little out of position, and trigger the sensor. German cars of that era like to do that.

isellhondas said:

I bought the BMW on a whim when I was looking for a cheap car for a 75 year old woman down on her luck. I saw the BMW on CL and said WOW! It was in Bellevue in Somerset and since I was heading to Bellevue for a haircut I decided to stop and see it.
I ran it on CL late in summer and a couple of strokes responded. A woman called asking if it would be a good car to commute from Seattle to Olympia every day. I told her to find a Honda or a Toyota and to stay away from ANYTHING European that isn't new or almost new.

bhill2

fintail said:

I laughed at the Chevette. Nice piece of styling brilliance to the left, and another future classic under it, too.

I am jealous of that DeSoto, I'd love to do something like that to my fintail, but I just can't commit to the time and expense. It should be pretty stunning when it is detailed up and back on the road.

Fin, my opinion (which is worth pretty much the amount of money it would cost me) is that the series 108 (and 109) MB's are just about the most beautiful classic cars around. Your 'beast' is gorgeous as it is, but restored it would stop traffic. Just one car freak's opinion.

fintail

I think 108/109s are the classiest car one can buy for the money. They are seriously undervalued, probably because they are boring sedans and have relatively high survival rates.

Thanks re: my car, I am always flattered as I know every little flaw on it, and as it is an unrestored car, there are a few. I think the color helps, too, it is very "early 60s", and catches the eye more than the black or white/off white that seem to have been most of production. A perfect fintail would wow people at MB shows, as not many have been restored on this continent. If you want to see it restored, kindly send me around 25-30K, and I will get the process started

bhill2 said:

Fin, my opinion (which is worth pretty much the amount of money it would cost me) is that the series 108 (and 109) MB's are just about the most beautiful classic cars around. Your 'beast' is gorgeous as it is, but restored it would stop traffic. Just one car freak's opinion.

lemko

andre1969 said:

Well, my DeSoto is starting to look like a complete car again. I went by the shop during lunch to drop off another check. The body is back on the frame. I took a few pics...hard to get really good ones, as it was sort of crammed in a corner, but here they are...





Oh, and check out what the mechanic now has up on the lift, in its place...

Just stand in front of it and simply say, "show me" and the DeSoto will put herself back together in quick order! Then she will go after a couple of punks in a '67 Camaro!

gbatt

Our neighbor across the street from my family's house had his 1972 Mercedes 280se 4.5L parked in his driveway over the weekend (this car has lived in a garage since 1972 when he bought it). The car has 31K miles and has been garaged its entire life. Definitely a beautiful survivor car. Turns out he had just sold it to a buyer. Could have knocked me over with a feather when he told me he sold it, I figured he would be buried in the car, as it was his baby for the past 42 years.... I took a couple exterior pics, the inside was every bit as good as the outside, maybe better...

stickguy

Looks brand new. And nicer looking than most new cars, style wise.

fintail

Judging by the architecture, SF Bay area?

The real cream of the crop W108s like this will bring a little money. I wonder if it went back to Europe, where they are worth twice as much,

gbatt said:

Our neighbor across the street from my family's house had his 1972 Mercedes 280se 4.5L parked in his driveway over the weekend (this car has lived in a garage since 1972 when he bought it). The car has 31K miles and has been garaged its entire life. Definitely a beautiful survivor car. Turns out he had just sold it to a buyer. Could have knocked me over with a feather when he told me he sold it, I figured he would be buried in the car, as it was his baby for the past 42 years.... I took a couple exterior pics, the inside was every bit as good as the outside, maybe better...

Mr_Shiftright

These are very well built cars! Reliability is rather iffy and repairs quite pricey but if you want to have one, this is the kind you want---low miles and obviously much loved. I hope it does go back to Europe. They are not much appreciated here and are on a low, if not flat, appreciation curve, and it's hard to get more than $15K for one, well below the cost of restoration. So Europe would at least preserve the car as needed, whereas here in the USA they are pretty much left to their fate if they break down or get dented up.

explorerx4

Andre, Have you seen the show Graveyard Kars? It's Mopar centric. The main character reminds of an ex BIL of mine. I like that they pretty much try to make the cars close to original.

isellhondas

I don't know where else to ask this question so I'll ask it here in case Mr. S or someone else has the answer.

Many years ago when I managed a large Auto Center I watched form a distance as one of my battery installers was installing a battery into a Jaguar XKE. I thought it was a bit odd to see an XKE getting a battery but otherwise I paid no attention.

The Jag drove off into the night.

A day or so later I got a phone call from a very British sounding guy who was the Service Manager at a local dealership that sold Jaguars.

" You blokes have really mucked this car up...you've installed the battery BACKWARDS..Don't you blokes know that British cars built before 1965 have positive ground?"

Well, I knew that but my 18 year old installer (close to my age) had never seen a positive ground car in his life so I couldn't get upset with him.

I think I had to write a check for over 1200.00 for several damaged components.

NOW...I recently told this story to a couple of guys who told me that would have been impossible and that the car wouldn't have been able to run.

That Service Manager swore that it could in fact run connected backwards.

Anyone?

Now, I'm wondering if the customer may have switched the battery in order to get some free repairs?

andre1969

explorerx4 said:

Andre, Have you seen the show Graveyard Kars? It's Mopar centric. The main character reminds of an ex BIL of mine. I like that they pretty much try to make the cars close to original.

Never heard of it, but it sounds like I might have to check it out!

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, most cars of that era will run and most of the instruments on really old British cars at any rate are not even polarity sensitive. As for a '65 Jaguar, I'd have to study the car more to know which instruments would be affected--I'm sure the ammeter would have read backwards, and I if the tachometer were electric, that would go kaflooey as well. No doubt the alternator would most likely be damaged if the car had one. But most instruments you can just switch the wires and you're good to go.

On REALLY old cars chances are you wouldn't even notice the difference.

andre1969

I always thought if you tried to put a battery in backwards that it would spark the moment you made contact with the second cable? Or would it not do anything bad until you actually started the car?

isellhondas

I believe that XKE was a 1963 if I remember correctly.

I think it took out the generator and maybe the radio?

Well, I KNEW that Jag drove away that night and the guy probably noticed the instruments reading screwy the next day.

I'm glad I was right...THANKS!

Mr_Shiftright

The generator might not charge at all until it was polarized properly, and yeah, the radio would not be happy.

I'm not sure why the British thought electrons would be happier running in one direction rather than another.

ab348

Mr_Shiftright said:

The generator might not charge at all until it was polarized properly, and yeah, the radio would not be happy.

I'm not sure why the British thought electrons would be happier running in one direction rather than another.

Ask, and you shall receive:

http://lajagclub.com/the-argument-for-positive-ground/

stickguy

Well, they also drive on the wrong side of the road.

texases

He had me until this:

"Want more? Ok, so after the invention of plastic wire insulation, why did Positive ground go away? Electronics. Sometime around this era the transistor was developed and all kinds of neat things were invented….including electronic ignition and transistor radios which were cool to have in cars. The electronics industry standardized on what is known as the NPN transistor (negative-positive-negative) which only works on Negative ground electrical systems! Hence, positive ground cars became a thing of the past."

I would think appropriate wiring would allow for positive ground and solid state electronics. A better reason would be to join the rest of the civilized world, and its automotive suppliers!

Mr_Shiftright

So positive earth was used by British engineers to prevent British cars from corroding? Did I just hear someone burst out laughing?

fintail

I went to the auction today, where everything is a project. Here are the highlights (pics from the auction company - saves me effort).

1988 750iL - yes, the V12. These make a MB V12 maintenance routine look like that of a Corolla - money pit. Indicated 60K, likely real - but damp got in it, so there was some unfortunate mold on the driver's side:



1987 300E, nice Sir Mix a Lot grille. Indicated ~90K, likely real - straight, interior was OK, but the car had obviously sat for some time, cobwebs in the engine bay. OEM replacement alternator and PS speaks to maintenance. Still had the cruise and signal hangers in the glove box:



1980 F250 - claimed 52K, maybe real as was much straighter and cleaner than most of these:



Grandma's baby, 1989 88 Royale, 65K, no doubt real - very clean:



Rode hard and put away wet, interior was better than expected:



This had sat outside for a long time. This is how cars age here - they don't dissolve, they just get a lot of patina/natural fungal growth, and eventually a little surface rust:



Extinct now:



These somewhat tinny but reliable things are almost all gone now:



Same here:

ab348

fintail said:

These somewhat tinny but reliable things are almost all gone now:

That reminded me that 30+ years ago I was a passenger in one of those on a trip to Boston. It was almost brand new. I discovered that if I tried to rest with my head on the rear passenger door window using something to cushion my head, I could cause the entire window frame (not just the glass, the whole assembly) to move enough to create quite a gap. The wind noise made impossible to rest. Tinny indeed. I imagine they folded up in an accident.

Same here:

I can't even ID that?

I like the Riv despite the fungus, and that F250 seems appealing.

stickguy

that white thing is shaped like a Yugo, but not quite sure that is it. Some sort of early Hyundai?

I too like the F250. certainly from the days when trucks were still trucks!

and oddly, I like that poor little Bobcat. Kind of want to adopt it and bring it home. But only if it is a 4 speed!

fintail

The Bobcat was a manual, 4-speed I assume. White box is a Subaru Justy.

stickguy

Justy. Yup. I knew I recognized it but just couldn't come up with the name. Have not seen one of those in the flesh in many many years.

4 speed? Good thing it is 4,000 miles away!

hpmctorque

stickguy said:

Justy. Yup. I knew I recognized it but just couldn't come up with the name. Have not seen one of those in the flesh in many many years.

4 speed? Good thing it is 4,000 miles away!

Justys (Justies?) were rugged little 3-cylinder cars. Automatics were undesirable early CVT design, so manuals were the only kind to own.

qbrozen

the truck is definitely the winner there. Wonder what it went for.

andre1969

yeah, of that bunch, I think the F250 is the one I'd pick. Kinda like the Riviera too, except for the color. And that FWD 88 might not be a bad little beater car if it's in decent shape. Lemko got some pretty good use out of his '88 Park Ave

uplanderguy

Those Eighty-Eights came in a good-looking coupe, as did the LeSabre. In general, I like the earlier ones with four headlights better, but I'd probably overlook that for the improvements in the 4-speed automatic transaxle I think I've heard about on the later ones.

andre1969

I liked those 88 and LeSabre coupes, especially with the quad headlights. I think the quad headlights were 1986-only though, and they went composite for '87-88, and then had a slight restyle for '89-91.

As for the improvement to the transmission, I think that came around in 1988?

hpmctorque

andre1969 said:

I liked those 88 and LeSabre coupes, especially with the quad headlights. I think the quad headlights were 1986-only though, and they went composite for '87-88, and then had a slight restyle for '89-91.

As for the improvement to the transmission, I think that came around in 1988?

The 1988s had a more durable transmission, plus the "3800" was improved and more powerful than the "3.8". However, wasn't 1988 also when they converted to the failure prone composite plastic intake manifold?

gsemike

Any Christmas deals?

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/cto/4807778780.html Bring on winter! I know these are loved but with those miles and paint

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/cto/4803286459.html This has been listed a number of times with all sorts of different prices. Assume this price is OK

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/cto/4807688351.html Cheap price of admission to cruise night

http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/cto/4807628167.html Detailed ad. I am very bad at identifying MBs

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/cto/4778170388.html RARE 1978 F-150 2WD SUPERCAB WITH SHORT BED. Has a Marti report

http://newyork.craigslist.org/wch/cto/4804275986.html Could be dashing if it gets some love. No idea on price

http://newyork.craigslist.org/brk/cto/4807384056.html As nice as a Collande gets

http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/cto/4783164679.html 'Trophy winner'

ab348

gsemike said:

Any Christmas deals?

The Wagoneer only makes sense if you want to restore it and take it to shows. Not a daily driver.

The '62 Galaxie seems cheap enough, and not in horrible shape, but the style just does nothing for me.

After owning a '74 Maverick, I cannot imagine driving a Comet with more than 110 hp under the hood. Flimsy cars. Chassis, steering and brakes are all very questionable.

I LOVE the '78 F-150! Seems a steal at that price.

The '72 Skylark is not a deal at that price and with the work it needs (like losing the "custom" interior. Take the Collanade.

Mr_Shiftright

72 Wagoneer -- maybe he saw a clean one at auction and figured his was the same? He's at about double fair market value. Might be a good 'beach car" that you could leave out all winter after you vacate your 15,000 sq ft. "cabin" in the Hamptons.

62 Galaxie XL --looks like a bit of a rat but the price isn't too far off the mark. I'd say $3200 max if it runs well and has no serious rust. If someone waved $2500 in front of his face, he should take it.

72 Comet Rod -- might be worth it--it's no show car but you couldn't build it for that price.

75 MB 450SEL -- money pit, bad year for Benzes in general. If it runs well, $3500 should be plenty for it.

78 Ford F-150 --- looks a little crusty but in this price range, you take what you can get. Not a bad price but I'd say $2800 is all the money. If there's more rust than he says, deduct a bit more.

58 Jaguar 150 FHC -- this is one of those cars that if looked at with a cold and rational eye, it's actually worth nothing, because it needs a complete restoration and when you're done with that, you could have bought one all done up and CORRECT for the same money or less.

Here's a tarted up old beater that actually runs and is complete for not much more:

http://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/1959-jaguar-xk150-fhc-c-3217.htm

I'd say the price of the NY car is about 9K-12K

74 Buick Gran Sport---well "restored" is stretching it here---look at that engine bay! I'd say $4500 is a home run here.

72 Buick Skylark---I don't think bowling trophies count---try $6000 and take it if it comes.

stickguy

Someone did a marti on a 1978 ford? Odd

And sadly I love the comet. Must be the 5 speed!

Mr_Shiftright

The Comet's the only one on that list worth the money asked, IMO. ---based on photos only, of course

The Ford's a case of it being rare, but who cares? It's such an esoteric form of rarity that you'd have to explain it to anyone looking at the truck.

steine13

Technical question, campers:
Is this tire OK to be plugged, or am I too close to the shoulder?
Sorry for the picture, it's dark and wet and the wheel is still on the car...

qbrozen

perfectly fine to plug.

explorerx4

@steine13, If a tire place told you that tire could not be plugged, they just wanted to sell you a new tire. Then they would plug and resell your old tire. The best repair(patch) is done from the inside.

Mr_Shiftright

You're good to go, presuming this nasty thing has not worked itself around too much and damaged a sidewall. And yes, patch from the inside. A plug is a hit or miss kind of thing.

qbrozen

I've never had a plug fail. But I think I may be up to like 6 of my own and 6 customers lifetime, so not a big sampling.

I should note, however, that not all plugs are created equal. The ones with the big head you put in with a pump gun are far superior to those silly string things you push in with an oversized needle with plastic handle.

xwesx

qbrozen said:

I should note, however, that not all plugs are created equal. The ones with the big head you put in with a pump gun are far superior to those silly string things you push in with an oversized needle with plastic handle.

True, and yet I've never had one of those fail either! I agree. This one is a good candidate for plug/repair.

I generally plug, then have it fixed from the inside if/when I have the tire off the rim.

isellhondas

What the heck is a "Marti Report"?

It's a shame to see the mighty Gran Sport name attached to a roach smogged up Buick like that one! 1974 was not a good year for cars in general!

Mr_Shiftright

http://www.martiauto.com/reports2.cfm

'We are the privileged licensee (contract #5012) to Ford Motor Company's entire production database for the 1967-2007 model years. We can tell you everything about any Ford, Lincoln, or Mercury made in the United States or Canada during 1967-2007. What color was your car? Easy. What rear axle ratio? Sure. What day was the car sold? Yeah, even that - and a whole lot more.

Marti Reports are currently available for all Ford, Lincoln and Mercury vehicles built in the United States or Canada 1967-2007. Unfortunately, data is not available for vehicle 1966 and earlier. We do have some Ford Original Invoices for 1962 through 1966 Thunderbirds convertibles"

andre1969

isellhondas said:

What the heck is a "Marti Report"?

It's a shame to see the mighty Gran Sport name attached to a roach smogged up Buick like that one! 1974 was not a good year for cars in general!

According to Wikipedia, the Gran Sport could still be ordered with a 245 or 255 hp 455 in '74, so with one of those engines, it might have still been kind of fun. Or, at the very least, it might still be able to chirp one of the rear tires, jerk you around, and make a lot of noise, so at least it *feels* like you're going fast. That's kinda how my '76 LeMans is, until a Prius blows past it and shatters the illusion

gsemike

Thing is with the malaise era cars now, you can crank up the HP and have a fun car for a fraction of the cost of a pre-72 car. No one gives a rats [non-permissible content removed] about originality, so take that 74 and crank up the HP. Have 13 sec quarters for under 10 grand. You could do worse

Mr_Shiftright

Exactly. You can polish a turd and make it shine like a jewel for $10,000 bucks. Some crate horsepower, a better transmission, nice wheels, some good shocks and brakes, and be happy.

isellhondas

This guy has been trying to sell this Riviera for over a year!

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/4814161064.html

I think it's about ten grand overpriced.

Standard interior, Mickey Mouse gauges no air conditioning and probably few other options.

I sure wish I hadn't sold my last '65!

Mr_Shiftright

Well it has a lot of wrong parts so that knocks the real collectors out of the mix.

ab348

If I was going to spend $18Gs on a Riv, it wouldn't be that one.