Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

lemko

uplanderguy said:

What ab348 said, lemko. That overhead shot is a great one!

Is yours leather or velour inside?

Leather.

andre1969

Happy birthday Lemko!! Hope it's a great day!!

sda

uplanderguy said:

Best domestic instrument panel of the '70's I think. I can spy the little emblem that says "Radial Tuned Suspension".

On your '67, I'm reminded of how the heater controls and radio controls aped each other on '65-68 Pontiacs I think. The '67 Catalina was the first Pontiac panel I can think of where the Catalina panel was the same panel as the Bonneville and Grand Prix (other than nameplate, and that the Bonneville had the 'suitcase handle' under the glovebox, where it looked 'stuck on' to me, in comparison to the '65-66). Basically I mean the Catalina panel was full-woodgrain unlike previous years.

That '66 Star Chief Executive we talked about briefly was back on eBay, but was pulled as 'no longer available'. Twice a friend of mine who was very serious about the car asked for underside photos, and twice he was told he'd get them, but never did. I think that was a very, very nice car and while you don't have to like the seller to enjoy the car, that kind of thing is soooooo frustrating if not lazy.

I agree that is one of the best looking dashboards of that era. We had a 73 Grand Am with the same dash. Only exception is the wood grain was actual wood veneer, which curled as the car got older, and had actual gauges for oil, volts, temp. The steering wheel in Andre's LeMans is the same as what I had in my 76 Sunbird thou it was blue. I like that dash much better than what we had in our 76 Cutlass Supreme wagon. That dash was really plain and somewhat cheap looking.

uplanderguy

Was your '73 Grand Am a coupe or sedan? They frequently showed the sedan in magazine ads, but I'm not sure I ever saw a real one. That, and the Cutlass Salon of '73, were the first GM four-doors I'm aware of that had bucket seats and a console with floor shift.

Most '73 Grand Ams I recall seeing were white with the tasteful red and blue pinstriping, and were coupes. Very handsome cars and that '73 GM mid-size chassis, especially tuned as the Grand Am, Cutlass Salon, and Monte Carlo were, were known to be good handlers for the day..

uplanderguy

Yikes, that '62 is not for the faint-of-heart! That strikes me as an odd place for a patch, on the front fender ahead of the wheel opening.

A Studebaker friend has a '62 Coupe deVille, white with blue interior, a nice driver for sure.

ab348

sda said:

I agree that is one of the best looking dashboards of that era. We had a 73 Grand Am with the same dash. Only exception is the wood grain was actual wood veneer, which curled as the car got older, and had actual gauges for oil, volts, temp. The steering wheel in Andre's LeMans is the same as what I had in my 76 Sunbird thou it was blue. I like that dash much better than what we had in our 76 Cutlass Supreme wagon. That dash was really plain and somewhat cheap looking.

I haven't yet found any images of my '77 LeMans interior, but this pic I found on the net is close, though my dash was blue, with white upholstery and door panels.



Even without the rally gauges, the standard dash was nicely designed. In retrospect, this was one of those cars I wish I could have kept.

fintail

Happy Birthday. Is it the car's birthday too?

You having that car now is like an original owner 1963 when you bought it.

lemko said:

I brought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham out for my birthday.

uplanderguy

While I think the styling and color aren't nearly as appealing as the '66 Star Chief Executive from ebay talked about here a few weeks back, here's a very nice uber-low-mileage '70 Pontiac Executive:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Other-Executive-Hardtop-/111679863307?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1a00a37a0b&item=111679863307

The Executive is rarely seen IMHO. I used to just not like '70 Pontiacs, but they've grown on me because I never see them now.

The Executive is also nice for those who wanted the long wheelbase of the Bonneville, but didn't like the fussiness of skirts or the heaviness they added in looks. The interior might not be opulent but it has a quality look IMHO.

With the advent of energy-absorbing interiors and such, I do think it's a shame how far downhill the luxurious look of Pontiac instrument panels went from about '65 to '70. Black plastic is present in the '70. I've always thought the '65 Bonneville and Grand Prix instrument panel was magnificent.

sda

ab348 said:

sda said:

I agree that is one of the best looking dashboards of that era. We had a 73 Grand Am with the same dash. Only exception is the wood grain was actual wood veneer, which curled as the car got older, and had actual gauges for oil, volts, temp. The steering wheel in Andre's LeMans is the same as what I had in my 76 Sunbird thou it was blue. I like that dash much better than what we had in our 76 Cutlass Supreme wagon. That dash was really plain and somewhat cheap looking.

I haven't yet found any images of my '77 LeMans interior, but this pic I found on the net is close, though my dash was blue, with white upholstery and door panels.



Even without the rally gauges, the standard dash was nicely designed. In retrospect, this was one of those cars I wish I could have kept.

Colorwise my 76 Sunbird's interior was very similar. White seats, headliner. Door panels where white with white door pulls, lower part carpeted and medium blue. Medium blue carpet. Dash was of a darker blue with the same style steering wheel as in your LeMans picture, in medium blue. It really looked sharp and the white interior, though hard to keep clean, made the Sunbird's interior feel larger. It also kept the interior cooler which was appreciated during the summer, though it did have the typical hurry cool GM A/C.

sda

uplanderguy said:

Was your '73 Grand Am a coupe or sedan? They frequently showed the sedan in magazine ads, but I'm not sure I ever saw a real one. That, and the Cutlass Salon of '73, were the first GM four-doors I'm aware of that had bucket seats and a console with floor shift.

Most '73 Grand Ams I recall seeing were white with the tasteful red and blue pinstriping, and were coupes. Very handsome cars and that '73 GM mid-size chassis, especially tuned as the Grand Am, Cutlass Salon, and Monte Carlo were, were known to be good handlers for the day..

I really liked and preferred the Cutlass Salon at the time, though I liked both. Dad bought the Grand Am as a car for my sisters to drive to high school and later, college. It was the 4 door sedan in a butterscotch color with brown vinyl interior. It did have red,white, blue stripe. The color combo was not my favorite and of all things was very similar to another car we had at the time, a 72 Toyota Corona Mark II. It too was of a yellow butter scotch color and had a brown cloth interior. This was around 1982, so neither car was new. I remember being very impressed by how well the Grand Am drove. It had a good ride without being floaty and handled well. It was horrible on gas and because it was the base 400 2bbl with single exhaust, not that fast, though it never felt strained. We did have an issue with it overheating. Dad had it in the shop multiple times, rad flush, new fan clutch, water pump. Though improved, one had to watch the temp gauge closely. Later it was sold, and the new owner immediately thought he was a race car driver came together with a tree.

ab348

uplanderguy said:

While I think the styling and color aren't nearly as appealing as the '66 Star Chief Executive from ebay talked about here a few weeks back, here's a very nice uber-low-mileage '70 Pontiac Executive:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pontiac-Other-Executive-Hardtop-/111679863307?forcerrptr=true&hash=item1a00a37a0b&item=111679863307

The Executive is rarely seen IMHO. I used to just not like '70 Pontiacs, but they've grown on me because I never see them now.

Same here. I didn't like the '69 Pontiac front end very much and when the 1970 came out I thought it was even worse, but I have grown to quite like them now.

This is a remarkable survivor. I certainly would not want to drive it very far on those double-stripe OEM tires!

I am surprised the Executive interior is not more lavish. It isn't bad, but I thought it would have a bit more going on. Like you, I find the '69/'70 dash to be disappointing. It seems bland in comparison to what came before and after. The colors on this would normally appeal to me but there is something lacking - I think it is the lack of contrast. Possibly just too much of one color.

Very neat car though.

berri

There are many things to be said for modern interiors, including better build quality. But one thing I really miss is the lighter, airier feeling of interiors back a few decades ago. Todays cars to me at least, are all too frequently dark, depressing blacks and greys.

stickguy

that, and gunslit windows that make it feel claustrophobic. A good reason to have a moonroof. it at least lets light in, even if you don't open it.

stickguy

speaking of dark interiors, I am currently looking at new mazdas. they have 2 colors, all black and black/sand (seats and door panels are tan). looks IMO much classier, and definitely brighter and less dreary.

of course, my dealer that I plan to buy from stocks nothing (with few exceptions) but black, because "people don't want to have to clean a light colored interior". Apparently people are in fact lazy slobs!

at least some other nearby dealers stock a mix, so the car I want can, in fact, be located.

berri

My wife and I each had a black interior some years back. Mine, black vinyl in a Plymouth, hers black cloth in an Olds. Trust me, they were the worst cars either one of us had for keeping the interior up. Showed dirt, scratches, every spec of dust or hair. Just awful, not to mention heat build up. One of our current cars is an older Camry that has a tan interior, believe it or not - absolutely no trace of black or grey anywhere in it. It has been much easier to keep decent looking than the black interiors we had. I'm going to hate to give it up eventually because it is so light and airy inside without all the heat build up in summer, or steering wheels too hot to the touch initially. Today, pretty much any of the few cars that still offer tan seats combine it with black dashboards, steering wheels and other trim. As for wear over time, the tan gets worn spots, but not shiny worn spots like the black seats. I think today's emphasis on black and grey is more about manufacturing cost cuts than what is desired by the consumer. If black had real advantages, you'd see it in airliners. (One other nice thing about that car is that it has easy to use "knobs" on the instrument panel instead of tiny buttons or erratic touch sensitive features, so they don't distract while driving).

texases

Yeah, black really shows dirt, 'sand' would be much better.

andre1969

When I was a kid, the neighbors that lived behind my grandparents had a 1970 Executive 4-door sedan. It was a dark green, as I recall. I just looked up a paint chart (thanks, TCP Global!), and see there are two similar greens, "Veduro Green" and "Pepper Green". It was in that spectrum...I remember it being similar to the "Sequoia Green" of my grandparents' '72 Impala, but not quite as tasteful, IMO. A bit lighter, and a bit more olive in its hue.

I'm not a huge fan of the '70 Pontiacs, but don't mind them, either. To me they seem a bit transitional in styling...one of the earlier adopters of the "neoclassic" style, looking to the past and applying it to modern designs. Something that we would call "retro", today.

I had a '69 Bonneville for a few years, 4-door hardtop. "Antique Gold" with a black vinyl top and gold-ish interior. It seemed like a really nice car at the time, but had some cheap details. For one, where it had "Bonneville" stamped on the padded fake woodgrain over the dash, I remember one day wiping the car down (most likely with Armor-All...sorry ) and the lettering actually started to rub off!

For '70, it looks like "Bonneville" is embossed into a metal plaque, and looks a bit more upscale.

I think the '69 is the last big Pontiac I really liked a lot, at least until the downsized '77 models. I love the '67, but to me the '68 just seems like an old man's car. Even though the '69 is very similar in style, I thought they improved on it, and there seemed to be a brief attempt at capturing a bit of youth, before going a bit old fogey again with the '70. Then, for '71 I thought they just went a bit too extreme, getting a bit too pimpy for my tastes. And by the time they started toning them down and making them more tasteful, I just thought Buick and Olds were doing a better job with their styling.

ab348

stickguy said:

speaking of dark interiors, I am currently looking at new mazdas. they have 2 colors, all black and black/sand (seats and door panels are tan). looks IMO much classier, and definitely brighter and less dreary.

of course, my dealer that I plan to buy from stocks nothing (with few exceptions) but black, because "people don't want to have to clean a light colored interior". Apparently people are in fact lazy slobs!

at least some other nearby dealers stock a mix, so the car I want can, in fact, be located.

That dealer sounds the same as most of them around here. Nothing but black interiors. "That's what people buy!" they say, ignoring the fact that if that's all they stock, of course that's all that is going to get sold.

I had no choice but to take my ATS with black inside and honestly I don't mind it as much as I thought I would, probably because the headliner, package tray and pillars are a light gray. And I keep it spotless. But I would much prefer an interior with a bit of color and lighter upholstery.

berri

I always thought the 77 downsized Pontiac was perhaps the best looking inside an out of those redesigns. At a minimum it's a tie with the Buick in my book.

ab348

berri said:

I always thought the 77 downsized Pontiac was perhaps the best looking inside an out of those redesigns. At a minimum it's a tie with the Buick in my book.

They were very nice. I liked the Buick interior best, but the stepped-back headlights didn't do them any favors. When they fixed that for '79 on the Electra I thought that was very handsome.

People forget how good those downsized GM fullsizers were. I had three of the '77-'79 generation (Impala, Delta 88 and Park Avenue) at different points in time and they were all just so smooth. I also drove and almost bought a 2nd-generation Pontiac Parisienne Brougham in the mid-90s and it was really nice.

andre1969

One thing I liked about the '77-81 Pontiac dash is that it was designed to accommodate full gauges. While it only came standard with a speedometer and fuel gauge, there were places for amps, temperature, and oil pressure.

You could get extra gauges on the Chevies, but IIRC they didn't give you a full complement. I'm pretty sure you'd get a temperature gauge, and either an amp gauge or oil pressure gauge, and in some years, a vacuum gauge to remind you that you were guzzling gas. The Chevy dash had a bit more of a random, pieced-together look, IMO.

I believe you could get optional gauges on the big Oldsmobiles as well (Temp, oil, and amps) but they were mounted low, and out of the normal range of vision. I always hated the way the Olds speedometer was a bit too thin vertically, so the numbers were really compressed towards the center and spread out towards the ends. I realize all strip speedometers are like this, but it just seemed exaggerated on the Oldsmobiles.

I don't think Buick ever offered extra gauges in the downsized LeSabre/Electra of that vintage. However, I have a Consumer Guide from 1985 that makes mention of them being offered in its review of the '85 LeSabre, however in the options list, there's no entry for it.

BTW, I always thought the regular '73-77 LeMans dash was really attractive looking. It's not as expensive looking as the Grand Prix/Grand LeMans dash, but it has a clean, modern look to it. The passenger side of it makes me think a bit of the '89 Cavalier Z-24 a college friend of mine once owned. I think you could get extra gauges in that regular LeMans dash as well, but IIRC they squeezed them all into the little dial that normally just houses the gas gauge. I think the big round dial was reserved for an optional clock.

ab348

andre1969 said:

I believe you could get optional gauges on the big Oldsmobiles as well (Temp, oil, and amps) but they were mounted low, and out of the normal range of vision. I always hated the way the Olds speedometer was a bit too thin vertically, so the numbers were really compressed towards the center and spread out towards the ends. I realize all strip speedometers are like this, but it just seemed exaggerated on the Oldsmobiles.

I loved my '78 Delta 88 but the dash design always confounded me. It looked like they just placed rectangles randomly in a grid. It was also poorly designed in terms of lighting, which was totally inadequate, and changing bulbs was painful. The optional "gages" were placed on either side of the steering column in the area below the other instruments, 2 on one side and one on the other. I still have a set of those somewhere in the basement that I never got around to installing.

Here is a nice interior shot, not of mine but of a Holiday 88 with buckets and console:




This is about as good as one of those ever looked. In the early '80s they added some aluminum trim under the speedo that helped a bit, and the late '80s Custom Cruiser wagons used this same design but with different woodgrain and changes to accommodate the later style GM radio which was larger.

isellhondas

I know the market has gone nuts on these but, 25,900 dollars??


http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/5051981852.html

I remember selling our 1972 Westy around 1988 for I think, 2500.00 and I didn't have people beating my door down.

It was not as nice but it sure wasn't bad either.

I must be out of touch with the market!

Mr_Shiftright

Yep that's about market rate for a really nice Westy. If they have the Subaru engine conversion, (called a "Subagon" by Westy freaks) they'll bring high $20Ks low 30Ks. If they have the Jetta turbo diesel conversion, and all the other goodies that make up an excellent restoration, they can approach $40K. Of course, just the engine conversion, if done professionally and using a well engineered kit, is a $20,000 deal.

But they have to be *really* nice to bring this kind of money. Even a whiff of shabbiness and you're in the low teens with these. I appraised a Subagon with new paint, new tent, thermostat propane heat, rebuilt transmission, freshly done woodwork, etc, for $26,500.

Wait there's more! You can do a Jetta turbo diesel conversion on a 4X4 "Synchro" Westy---the Mt. Everest within the cult.

texases

That's a bargain! How about $71k??
http://www.gowesty.com/sale_details.php?id=1701

explorerx4

I saw a one of the those VW vans today, with a CT classic plate that read GOWESTY.

fintail

Quite a few desirable VW vans in my area, some Syncros included.

Took my project car out today - it did well. Warm day means hot in the car, as the non-tinted curved glass and no AC heat things up. No real issues in how it behaved. Three weeks from yesterday is a big European car drive to Leavenworth, a facsimile of a Bavarian town in the mountains, maybe 100-120 miles from here, If the weather is good, I will take the old car. I might have a quickie inspection performed beforehand.

Here it is today, hanging out with a friend's nice W123 300CD, which is gradually being perfected:

Mr_Shiftright

Utterly ridiculous pricing IMO. The "market" does not underwrite restoration costs.

texases said:

That's a bargain! How about $71k??
http://www.gowesty.com/sale_details.php?id=1701

texases

Mr_Shiftright said:

Utterly ridiculous pricing IMO. The "market" does not underwrite restoration costs.

texases said:

That's a bargain! How about $71k??
http://www.gowesty.com/sale_details.php?id=1701

I agree, there's just something NUTS about the Westy crowd. How about $83k?
http://www.gowesty.com/sale_details.php?id=1653

stickguy

Apparently it does, since that is what it sold far. Though at least it sounds like effectively a brand new car. Just a really expensive one!

Mr_Shiftright

Well that one is serving as the people's home away from home. That's somewhat of a different buying perspective than looking at it has a "recreational vehicle" in your driveway. It's a roving hotel, so compared to 6 months of hotel bills, yeah, it's a bargain. It's like people who live on a sailboat. That's how they justify spending the money.

isellhondas

I'm sorry, but those prices are NUTS!

I just don't get it!

andre1969

I dunno...$83,000 over 6 months comes out to $3200 per week. That would be an awfully nice vacation! When I went to Aruba last year for two weeks, it came out to around $9,000 total for three people. That included plane tickets, a rental jeep, food, booze, entertainment, and lodging that was just a bit more luxurious than sleeping in a subcompact camper van.

If you want to go Dancin' Cross the USA for 6 months, I'm sure there are much cheaper ways to do it. Plus, the $83K is just for the VW...you still have to fuel it, maintain it, pay to park it to go camping, unless you want to limit yourself to WalMart parking lots and such. Or, if you're a senior citizen, I think you can camp really cheap in the National Parks. You still gotta eat, yourself. And keep yourself entertained.

I think the only way to justify spending $83K on one of these is that it's simply a very expensive hobby, a toy that you enjoy playing with, and you're not concerned about getting a return on your "investment".

stever

My "senior" pass gets me into most parks free, but you still gotta pay to camp. If you are a plug-in camper, some of those rates are as much as a cheap motel room.

Toys are great, but I can get a good tent for ~$300, bags for, oh, $500 and a couple of fancy pads for $200. My tent and pads are pretty new, but I got the down bags from LL Bean back on our '99 road trip. And if you want to, you can walk with or paddle that gear, or fly with it. Did the Na Pali Coast trail lugging that kind of stuff around back in the day. Be a bit pricy to get a Westy to Hawaii for a few days of camping.

texases

If I need an RV I rent. Expensive per day, but total $$ is WAY less than buying/keeping/insuring/storing/not using for 3/4 of the year (or more).

lemko

ab348 said:

Mr_Shiftright said:

UTTERLY HOPELESS:

Yup, I'd say that about sums it up.

fintail said:

What's the going rate for scrap?

fintail said:

Happy Birthday. Is it the car's birthday too?

You having that car now is like an original owner 1963 when you bought it.

lemko said:

I brought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham out for my birthday.

Actually, the car's birthday is 11/88 per the sticker on the inside of the door. I bought it on January 28, 1989.

fintail

I assume you kept the window sticker etc. I notice an Avalon in the background, did you get a Japanese Buick?

lemko said:

<

Actually, the car's birthday is 11/88 per the sticker on the inside of the door. I bought it on January 28, 1989.

stever

"In 2013, my second husband gave me a surprise birthday gift—my Barracuda. He’d found it in the barn where it’d languished unloved for over three decades, and had restored it without me knowing."

A Plymouth Barracuda and Its Original Owner Reunite (Wall St. Journal)

texases

Wow, what are the odds. Too bad there weren't pics of the engine.

qbrozen

certainly not an attractive version of that car. I give the guy credit for not bothering to restore it (as the front valance and rocker panels illustrate).

ab348

"Hottest one on the lot"? I don't think so, not with a 318.

texases

I'm pretty sure that 318 was a 2 bbl, with the AT it would have been called a 'secretary's car' back in the day. Look at those tiny tires.

Fun fact - did you know the Challenger had a 2" longer wheelbase, and that no sheet metal was shared with the Barracuda? I thought they were just 'badge jobs'...apparently not.

ab348

I thought the doors were the same.

texases

Not according to wiki, but they could be wrong.

bhill2

ab348 said:

"Hottest one on the lot"? I don't think so, not with a 318.

Yeah, you're right. You could get either the two-barrel or the four-barrel 383 in them, and the 'Cuda' still offered the 440's and the Hemi.

texases

Well, it could have been the 'hottest one on [that dealer's] lot' at that exact time...

andre1969

Yeah, I knew there was a 2" longer wheelbase, and that the sheetmetal was mostly different. But, IMO, it wasn't enough to really differentiate the cars. Chrysler was getting into a bad habit by that time that even when they made things different, they still looked more or less the same.

As for the door, they do look similar. However, when you look at them side by side, the bodyside crease seems stronger on the Challenger, and the leading edge of the door has a bit of a point at that crease, whereas the Barracuda's leading edge is more rounded.

As for that extra 2" of wheelbase, I think they achieved that by moving the rear axle back, but I could be wrong. And, I don't know if that added any back seat room or not. Often, the auto makers would stretch out the wheelbase, but without really giving any extra interior room. But, sometimes there was a real difference...for example, a '68 Dart on a 111" wb really did have more legroom than a '68 Valiant/Barracuda on the 108" wb. Can't remember if it really gave you 3" more legroom, though.

A 318-2bbl was probably more than adequate in that car, but it would still hardly be a performance car. The 318/2 is probably how the majority of them came equipped.

Mr_Shiftright

A 318 is a 5 liter engine. It's healthier than you think, especially if it has the right gearing and carburation--similar to a Mustang 5.0 from the 80s.

andre1969

318's were good engines, and usually it was often said that you had to go "the next size up" in the Ford or GM ranks to get similar performance...350, 351, etc. But, they really weren't performance engines. The vast majority of them were just 2-bbl jobs with 150 hp (230 gross), until they started getting choked down as the 70's wore on.

The 318 didn't really become a higher-performance engine until around 1992, when it got the "magnum" treatment, along with the 360. But by that time it was only being used in heavier trucks, so we never got to see what it could do in a car.

But, they can be built up. Hotter cam, 4-bbl carb, quicker gears, etc. In stock form though, a 318 Barracuda isn't going to be much of a match for an '80's Mustang 5.0. Unless you're talking about one from 1983, maybe. IIRC, that was the year the 302 returned to the Mustang. However, I think they got the HP up pretty quick, and by 1985 it was around 205.

texases

Yes, the 318 didn't come hot from the factory. That was the job of the 340 version. Friend had one of those in a Dart, it was fast.