Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail

I'm glad I primarily like lower value cars - nobody is going to fake anything I could realistically buy. And if I one has the money, it might be smarter to buy from a specialist dealer than from an auction that's really a pissing contest/bidding war between rich old men.

Mr_Shiftright

I wouldn't have caught all that stuff (most appraisers have to be generalists) but I would have put up a red flag on the missing ID plates, and the semaphores wouldn't have made sense to me. I'd have put a question mark on the van with a note to "needs further authentication by a VW expert prior to purchase".

texases

I had forgotten these were a 'thing' back in 1980 or so:


I was going through a 1980 Hemmings and ran across several ads from companies claiming to be the best Auburn Speedster replica maker.

Mr_Shiftright

"Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby"

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

Oh, I know, I've done it before. But some cars are locked, and if you don't have your little toolbox, it's hard to do some things---I.D. numbers aren't always easily seen and most people don't own a paint meter or carry a magnet. Some owners are very touchy, too. You also may not get a chance to try out the convertible top or the heater, etc.

I always liked the motto my friend Johann used: "Remember--every car at an auction is an abandoned car".

I guess when buying at an auction you just have to assume the worst. Of course then you'll get outbid. I can't believe the prices recently PLUS the entry fees and buyer's fee!

fintail

The paint scheme on the replicar is hilarious, nothing existed like that on a 1935-36 car. I don't think they made 4 seaters, either. The JC Whitney horns really complete the look.

Mr_Shiftright

A lot of the cars where you see high prices often have special options that you have to take into consideration as well. Some have very solid documentation, and that helps pricing as well.

But, as I've maintained many times before, auction prices are not necessarily "market". To prove an auction price is market, you'd have to wait a week, put it in another auction, and repeat the results, and do that 4-5 times, at least, to convince me that there's a new high watermark.

We have a polite expression in the classic car world when someone has obviously overbid on a car.

"You're ahead of the market right now".

Some other terms I love:

"chandelier bid" -- that's when there's no bid on a reserve car--the auctioneer points to some vague part of the auction tent and shouts out a number that's below the reserve price. Then there are no bids after. That's probably a chandelier bid.

"sympathetically restored" -- usually a tip-off phrase for a rattle-can restoration or a corner-cutter.

"patina" -- marks, chips and scuffs. A blemished car.

"recently out of storage" -- probably smells funny

"mileage believed correct" -- we have no freakin' idea

"older restoration" -- at least 20 years ago

ab348

It seems that L'affaire VW 23-window is now in the hands of the lawyers. It is all over the car forums on the 'net already. Everybody who had a hand in it is denying all responsibility so far. This could be a big black eye for Mecum if they are found to have known anything.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think Mecum would intentionally do something like that, but they could get careless or blase about things. Not the first time! Once you unload all responsibility to the sellers in your disclaimers, it gives you a sense of complacency. But unfortunately, you can't always legally force people to sign away their rights.

texases

"We have a polite expression in the classic car world when someone has obviously overbid on a car.
"You're ahead of the market right now""

In the oil and gas business it's called the 'winner's curse', and has been carefully studied, because of the many $$$$ involved in bidding for oil properties. Now companies know how to bid, based on lots of variables.

I'll post links to papers it you're interested!

Mr_Shiftright

So how do they avoid speculative high bids?

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

A lot of the cars where you see high prices often have special options that you have to take into consideration as well. Some have very solid documentation, and that helps pricing as well.

But, as I've maintained many times before, auction prices are not necessarily "market". To prove an auction price is market, you'd have to wait a week, put it in another auction, and repeat the results, and do that 4-5 times, at least, to convince me that there's a new high watermark.

We have a polite expression in the classic car world when someone has obviously overbid on a car.

"You're ahead of the market right now".

Some other terms I love:

"chandelier bid" -- that's when there's no bid on a reserve car--the auctioneer points to some vague part of the auction tent and shouts out a number that's below the reserve price. Then there are no bids after. That's probably a chandelier bid.

"sympathetically restored" -- usually a tip-off phrase for a rattle-can restoration or a corner-cutter.

"patina" -- marks, chips and scuffs. A blemished car.

"recently out of storage" -- probably smells funny

"mileage believed correct" -- we have no freakin' idea

"older restoration" -- at least 20 years ago


I remember the trade in's we used to get...

" Oh, the A/C just needs a charge"

" It's probably something minor"

" The odometer JUST quit working"

" I think it's a fuse or maybe a loose wire"

" The transmission doesn't slip unless it's cold so it's just fine"

" Timing Belt? Oh, I'm SURE it must have been replaced"

" Check Engine Light on...It's been like that for months so it's nothing to worry about"

" Rebuilt Title? Oh yeah....the insurance comapny gave me that awhile back"

isellhondas

" Recently out of storage...Not too many rat nests to deal with...I got most of em!

" Patina" A new and much used term for a ROUGH car that needs everything!

" Yep, only 52,000 miles! The old six digit odometer says that so I'm sure it must be so"

texases

Mr_Shiftright said:

So how do they avoid speculative high bids?

Three basic guidelines to avoid over-bidding, which also apply to bidding on cars:
1 - The less information you have compared to the competition, the less you should bid (they'll know better, so if you win you are likely wrong)
2 - The more uncertain you are about the asset's value, the less you should bid (you have a chance of being really wrong)
3 - When more than 3 bidders are involved, the less you should bid (if you win you're likely to be really high)

Note that this is for sealed bids, with one shot of getting it right, so it is different than open bidding to some degree.

Mr_Shiftright

Yes, but I like the concepts and they do apply to a degree--perhaps not #3, but the other two certainly do.

isellhondas

Need some input here if possible!

My best buddy has a much loved 1998 Mercedes E320. Great condition inside and out, 135,000 miles.

I the ten years he has owned it it has behaved itself pretty well for a European car and hasen't caused much trouble. He does keep on top of oil changes and most of the repars have been done by the dealer.

Finally, it has reached a service plateau whee some expensive stuff needs to be done. He has taken it to a top notch independent who has a reputation for being honest and for doing great work. What do you guys think?

1. Brake Job including 4 new rotors. Includes oil change etc with synthetics - 1700.00

2.. Front end rebuild....get this...3000.00!! Includes a BUNCH of replacement items including bushings, bearings, shocks and more. I am floored at 3000.00! Am I off base?

3. Complete tune up whatever that is anymore...Major service - 1000.00

I told him that I would strongly consider dumping the car. It has a KBB around 2500.00/

BUT.....He just LOVES this car! I know....

I ran a couple of possibilities by him....Suppose the transmission craps out next month or the engine?

Any thoughts here? He is open and can cancel the scheduled work. Just sounds SO expensive!

xwesx

Shocks could really push this up, plus alignment, which is probably about $300 by itself. It really depends on the type of shocks/struts it has (I'm not familiar with this year). I think that just struts alone is something like $1,100 on my Subarus at the dealer. Parts are $700 through the dealer, though a real person can get them for about $400 and put in an honest 4-5 hours to have the job done. Still, it's a lot of work.

I was quoted $1,100 when my Audi dealer wanted to replace the brake pads. That only included "turning" the rotors, which I assume is just smoothing them up. I bought new pads for about $120. Rotors had some grooves here and there, but otherwise were fine. The pads seated without issue.

Mr_Shiftright

OK---

Brakes---he doesn't have to go to a Mercedes specialist for this type of work. Rotors and pads are very straightforward and any independent garage that works on multi-brand cars and has a good reputation should be able to do this work for $1000--$1200, depending on zip code---maybe less.

Front End--- here's a case of when someone says "worn" you want to know "how worn?". Are the tires wearing badly? Do the ball joints have a lot of play in them? Steering bushings really loose? Does the car handle badly, bounce up and down, clunk, etc. No doubt some of these items are tired but there's no need to do a restoration on a front end as long as it is deemed safe to operate.

Major Service--I can't comment without an itemized list.

I would spend $1500--$2000 on a car to keep it for another 5 years, but I wouldn't spend double the car's value I don't expect. That's not a crazy thing to do if he's going to keep it, because then he can amortize cost over the next 5 years.

But, as you say, what if something BIG decides to cut loose in that car? Generally the E320 is a very sturdy car and I don't see why it can't go 200K.

I'm not saying the repair shop is over-selling on purpose, but he might be too much of a perfectionist when it just isn't necessary.

I would definitely shop this car around to other shops--but of course not to chain stores, etc. Yelp is your friend here.

texases

I thought that vintage E320 (W210, right Fin?) were not great as far as reliability goes. Not my choice for a car to keep, but if he loves it, those prices don't surprise me.

fintail

Which shop? Give initials or something if you wish.

Prices aren't cheap, but labor and profit margins are high here. Fortunately for him, the engines and transmissions on these cars are fairly stout. It's the other things that go with age. I'd probably pass on the front end work so long as it is safe and it can be aligned. Brakes seems steep for a non AMG car, must be replacing lines and everything. I assume major service at that price is plugs, wires, transmission and cooling service, etc.

W210s aren't as bad as some make them out to be (at least in a mild climate, they can rust in harsh areas), but as you say, it's not worth a fortune anymore, pick your battles.

isellhondas said:

Need some input here if possible!

My best buddy has a much loved 1998 Mercedes E320. Great condition inside and out, 135,000 miles.

I the ten years he has owned it it has behaved itself pretty well for a European car and hasen't caused much trouble. He does keep on top of oil changes and most of the repars have been done by the dealer.

Finally, it has reached a service plateau whee some expensive stuff needs to be done. He has taken it to a top notch independent who has a reputation for being honest and for doing great work. What do you guys think?

1. Brake Job including 4 new rotors. Includes oil change etc with synthetics - 1700.00

2.. Front end rebuild....get this...3000.00!! Includes a BUNCH of replacement items including bushings, bearings, shocks and more. I am floored at 3000.00! Am I off base?

3. Complete tune up whatever that is anymore...Major service - 1000.00

I told him that I would strongly consider dumping the car. It has a KBB around 2500.00/

BUT.....He just LOVES this car! I know....

I ran a couple of possibilities by him....Suppose the transmission craps out next month or the engine?

Any thoughts here? He is open and can cancel the scheduled work. Just sounds SO expensive!

isellhondas

Mr_Shiftright said:

OK---

Brakes---he doesn't have to go to a Mercedes specialist for this type of work. Rotors and pads are very straightforward and any independent garage that works on multi-brand cars and has a good reputation should be able to do this work for $1000--$1200, depending on zip code---maybe less.

Front End--- here's a case of when someone says "worn" you want to know "how worn?". Are the tires wearing badly? Do the ball joints have a lot of play in them? Steering bushings really loose? Does the car handle badly, bounce up and down, clunk, etc. No doubt some of these items are tired but there's no need to do a restoration on a front end as long as it is deemed safe to operate.

Major Service--I can't comment without an itemized list.

I would spend $1500--$2000 on a car to keep it for another 5 years, but I wouldn't spend double the car's value I don't expect. That's not a crazy thing to do if he's going to keep it, because then he can amortize cost over the next 5 years.

But, as you say, what if something BIG decides to cut loose in that car? Generally the E320 is a very sturdy car and I don't see why it can't go 200K.

I'm not saying the repair shop is over-selling on purpose, but he might be too much of a perfectionist when it just isn't necessary.

I would definitely shop this car around to other shops--but of course not to chain stores, etc. Yelp is your friend here.

Thanks and I agree totally with you. He's in So. Calif and I'm in Washington so it's hard for me to give advise. I will say the independent he took it to has top Yelp reviews and is a place that people rave about.

He can't afford a new Mercedes and he's afraid that if he spends 10,000 or more for another used one that it'll need the same things or more. Do you know if those have weak front ends? He did say his tires are wearing on the sides and that he has a slight clunk at times. If he could run it to 200K I think he would be happy. He's sending me copies of the estimates that I should get tomorrow so I'll know more.

BTW this is the same guy who had a Cadillac with the Northstar before the Mercedes. He had an appointment to get the 5000.00 Northstar leak fixed whan a guy ran a stop sign and totaled it. At the time I told him he got damm lucky because the insurance company would have paid him the same if the leak were fixed or not!

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah, an E320 will nickel and dime you--the usual suspects with old Benzes: climate controls, electronics. But the basic running gear and overall build quality is pretty good.

fintail

I just read the E320 guy is in CA - good luck. Probably lots of expertise there, but you'll pay for it.

I don't know his budget, but if he loves having a MB (I can relate), the 2012-13 cars have really depreciated now, and have proven to be quite reliable. These years have an improved engine. Some other years, especially around 2003-04, I wouldn't risk.

Mr_Shiftright

In southern CA, shop rates are easily $135/140 per hour, and the hours, they do fly by.

berri

I think you're on the right track isell, take that sucker out on one of the crazier SoCal freeways and get it totaled. Maybe I'll start calling you Mr. Pragmatist

Mr_Shiftright

Insurance might give him $5K-$6K for it if it's nice. Those are "low miles" after all, given the 20 year time span. To total it you probably wouldn't have to do much more than cave in the grill, dent the bumper a little and bust a few headlights.

xwesx

He's certainly right about going out and spending $10K on another one. With any well-used car, the devil you know is often the better bet.

If his plan is long-term keeper, then I recommend that he not worry too much about resale value. His intent is to use it, and even at the numbers he's talking about, that's maybe a year of payments on a new car. And, most of that stuff is going to last well beyond a year. Some things, like the suspension components, are likely lifetime at this point.

isellhondas

The research I've done has led me to believe that he is paying top dollar for these repairs. I watched a couple of videos and I'm convinced that most of this suspension work could be deferred or even ignored. Yes, it may have a slight clunk or a squeak now and then that would probably worsen and, yes he may get increased tire wear but I don't think anything catastrophic would happen. In a video a guy takes a huge pair of Channelocks and squeezes the upper ball joint of course, there is "some" play in it so it's condemned as being bad. Which I suppose it is. These cars also have some tack arms with rubber bushings that get soft and crack.

Are they "bad"? well.....yeah they are. Is the car going to fall apart in the street? Don't think so!

BUT...it's his car! He loves it so I'm not about to rain on his parade. Oh, maybe very gently bt than I'll stop!

Mr_Shiftright

Ball joint play is okay up to about 1/8" th inch. If you see a loose tie rod end, though, that should not be postponed.

fintail

How long does he want to keep the car? Forever? If so, might as well do all he is willing to spend.

I assume this is a car with very nice paint and interior.

texases

I hesitate contradicting the mechanic who looked at the suspension. I would ask him what work could be deferred.

gsemike

I just bought an 09 BMW X5 with 93k. I figure for a car I really like with no payment, I won't mind having a repair here and there, especially since I only drive 6 or 7k a year but these prices are making me feel woozy

gsemike

stickguy

Looks nice. How much was that baby?

gsemike

Long Island Classics

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1964-buick-special/6501717493.html Short on details but looks presentable (except for the wheels) for less than 4 grand

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1990-jeep-grand-wagoneer/6486112099.html These seem to be appreciating

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1979-porsche-928-classic-5/6509646457.html Looks to be well preserved

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1986-chevrolet-corvette/6488581685.html Looks cleaner than most and the two tone has kind of a kitschy appeal

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/all-my-chevy-vehicles-for-sell/6504151082.html Kind if an unusual way to sell your car(s)

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1978-ford-mustang-king/6501266255.html Could these things actually be appreciating now?

https://longisland.craigslist.org/cto/d/1967-ford-galaxie-xl/6483117389.html Full sizer

stickguy

Don’t hate on me, but I like that mustang. Not at all that price though. After sitting 35 Years, I assume that one will need a lot of attention. And not like paint and interior are pristine.

gsemike

stickguy said:

Don’t hate on me, but I like that mustang. Not at all that price though. After sitting 35 Years, I assume that one will need a lot of attention. And not like paint and interior are pristine.

That's a real 10 footer. The close ups on the body look pretty bad, and with those zany decals, how would you ever restore it? You'd have to just paint it a solid color, and then there goes a lot of the charm

Mr_Shiftright

That 1990 Jeep Grand Wagoneer that "needs nothing" sure looks like it needs something. But, as you say, these are appreciating in value. Needs seats, some paintwork, a little rust repair--I wonder what it looks like underneath?

The Porsce 928 might be a decent buy if all the service records are up to date. These are fun, fast cars but they'll absolutely kill you if they aren't straight mechanically. It's very unusual for the leather seats to be in good shape.

'86 Corvette--fair enough for an unloved year of Corvette.

'64 Buick--the car has "rat" written all over it I'm afraid.

gsemike

Mr_Shiftright said:

'64 Buick--the car has "rat" written all over it I'm afraid.

Just a driver but for 4 grand? You need to show up at cruise night in something

isellhondas

My buddy's Mercedes....

Well, it's going to be two weeks before they can do the work so in the meantime he mailed me the estimate. the brake work has already been done so that is a paid for done deal. Frankly, I think some of these prices are nuts but please, someone set me straight if I'm wrong.

Rotors - Front 101.71 each Rears were 78.28 ea
Pads - Fronts 88.50 set Rears were 89.34
Brake Fluid - 16.17 - Solvant ( ?) 5.26
Wheel Bearing Kit - 112,36
Wheel Bearing Grease - 12.43 ** Whoever heard of charging for grease?

Labor -

Front Brake Job - 190.40 - Rear Brake Job - 261.80
Flush Brake System - 95.20
WHEEL HUB - Remove and Replace Both Front - 285.60

Am I off base or does 350.00 sound like a LOT of money when they didn't even have to machine the rotors?

I'll continue on the next post.....

isellhondas

FRONT END WORK

Upper Control Arm and Ball Joint Assy - R. Side - 223.72
Upper Control Arm and Ball Joint Assy L, Side 216,84
Lower Control Arm Bushing Kit - 261,86
Lower Ball Joints (2) - 123.60
Front Shock Absorbers - 320.32
Rear Shock Absorbers - 283.80

LABOR - Hang onto your socks!

Replace Lower Ball Joints - 449.82
Replace Upper Control Arms - 370.00
Replace Lower Control Arm Bushings - 119.00
Replace Front shocks -185.64
Replace Rear Shocks- 264.18
4 Wheel Alignment - 110.00
Haz Material Disp - 10.00

So. what do your guys think? Personally I think a good tech could knock out that front end work incl the
shocks in a few hours. am I tottally out of touch?

Thanks, your imput is both respected and appreciated. It's not too late for my buddy to find another shop!

texases

Has he asked on some of the MB forums?
I have no good idea on the costs.

isellhondas

TUNE UP

Spark Plugs (12) 119.28 - Must have 2 per cyl?
Spark Plug Wire set - 310.65
Mass Airflow Cleaner - 7.18
Throttle Body Cleaner - 3.78
Fuel System Treatment 5.74

LABOR - Gag me!

Labor to R&R Spark Plugs - 396.27
Labor to change Spark Plug wires - 95.20
EFI Service (?) 101.15

I'm choking guys!

fintail

Even a Mr. Badwrench like me would be doing my own plugs and wires at those prices.

Those prices look like full bore retail, maybe even with tax. Amazon has OEM Bosch wiring sets for $206.

isellhondas

Almost 400.00 just to change the plugs and another 95.00 for the wires?.. The parts are FULL BORE retail and then some for what I can determine. That is expected within reason I suppose!

fintail

I am not sure of any service difficulties on that engine - but I know it is a V6, not the easier old I6, maybe something is buried. My only experience with MB spark plugs and wires is on the fintail, which as one might expect, is quite easy.

What's the labor rate, maybe ~$150/hr?

xwesx

Hate to say it, but I'm not feeling horrible about those prices. Sky high to me, but for shop rates? Not so much. Jeebus, my local shop charged me something like $450 to adjust the timing and carburetor on my 1969 C20. They said they had to replace and gap the spark plugs before they could adjust the carb and timing, so, basically, they charged me about $250 for spark plugs that would have cost me about $50.

explorerx4

Does a car of that age(1998?) still have to get emissions tested?

isellhondas

Thanks for the input. Exactly what I wanted. As to emissions yes in Calif.

stickguy

here is a real time warp. Green interior with a CB radio? Don't find that on the new lot! But I think they have an extra digit in the price someplace.

https://southjersey.craigslist.org/cto/d/1976-thunderbird-barn-find/6514958473.html