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Comments
A solution would be the new Passat Wagon version. It's very difficult to commit design flops on the rear of a wagon, although it is possible!
And that's just what I want..to pay $25K or more for a car and have it mistaken for a $15K car. Tee hee hee.
The side view looks OK though.
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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Seriously... if you put the two side by side, the only similarity is the logo.
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Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
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M
Most of the complaints of the passat are directed to the move upscale and the ditching of the "peoples car" image. In fact, VW's corporate entity is considering changing it's name to distance themselves from the "people car" moniker.
"According to a report in the German press, Volkswagen is considering changing the name of the group to Auto Union.
The logic would be that Volkswagen is both a car brand and the name of the holding company that also controls Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Seat and Skoda (plus the soon-to-be relaunched Bugatti brand). Auto Union was a famous name in the 1930s and itself was a holding company for four German car manufacturers, including Audi.
Volkswagen is not commenting on the report. "
Note, this would change the corporate name, not the car brand name.
Lease rates are under $600 (think I saw $550 or so)
but...I guess we're getting away from the Passat, which I don’t think has been officially released and I suspect (going on VW’s track record) that it will be a while before anybody (referring to the public at large) has an opportunity to drive one.
That has to be the stupidest idea I heard so far about VW. VW's name has a lot of goodwill built these past 6 decades.
VW move upscale?(did these bozos in VW management forget the luxury marques they own). Why cannibalize them!
If VW continues with its Kamikaze mission of self destruction there will be no VW in the upcoming decades---unless it is competently managed and owned by Toyota. Now that is an idea worth noting.
What makes VW and Mercedes a depressing case study is that these two marques have among the best auto engineers in the world combined with the worst management since Worldcom/Enron.
As future VW/MB sales decline worldwide watch out for the following buzzword---The Strong Euro. They will blame all their problems on the Euro without acknowledging any ineptitude on the part of management! This story is as depressing as those serious German Film dramas.
Just like when you go buy a Mercedes you say “Mercedes” not DaimlerChrysler; or buy a Dodge Caravan, not a DaimlerChrysler Caravan.
I think it’s a great idea. I think the VW name stands for a lot, but if (when) I go buy my Gallardo I don’t want to see the VW logo on the side of the engine even if they are responsible for it.
Don't know much about their management.
DrFill
M
Hyundai laughs at VW quality right now. Kia has hope in their eyes!
DrFill
I agree with your above statement about VW. And yes MB has better reliability/quality stats---but that does not make MB better. For a luxury marque like MB, being close to or below average is inexcusable.
If you look at historic reliability stats--MB used to be NUMBER ONE. My wife drives a 83 MB300D and it has been bullet proof since the day my father bought it 22 years ago. That is what MB quality should be!!!
Now for VW, I think average quality would be quite a radical improvement. I am very eager about test driving the new 285hp Passat wagon but I am somewhat worried about owning it since I hate long term expensive commitments to my auto mechanic.
Good point! Despite my scornful rebuke about VW reliability--I am still interested in a Passat.
Please note the despite the fact the CR recommends the 6 cylinder Passat, its latest reliability is not exactly stellar!
The MB stats are a disgrace!!!
As far as Mercedes improving I think it will take some time because the surveys that carry the most weight, the 3-5 year ones aren't going to show any improvement because anything made between 2000-2002 is already on the road and during those years Mercedes really didn't even say anything about having a problem so I know they didn't do anything. The proof will be there, if they've done anything when the 2005 onward models are looked at in the long term surveys. A lot of survey clutchers seem to miss this. Mercedes did improve in the JDP initial quality survey, whatever thats worth. Consumer Reports is all bad circles and what not, but I'm not totally convinced on their methods. Are subscribers the only ones that can get a survey from them? If they're using previous models to give a "projected" reliability rating I think their surveys are bs because that doesn't allow for changes that VW or Mercedes could have made to the product since then. I think I like the JDP method at little better, if I'm correct on the CR method???
M
Indeed they are the only ones, hence skewed results as this group (CR subscribers, of which I am one) is quite atypical. Useful evaluations of refrigerators and TV's, but reliability data that's based on subscribers that bother to return the survey (an even more esoteric sampling)?
Need to add salt.
However, considering that [basically that people feel OK with their government] is the reason given for our relatively low participation as voters (in the US), I can see how that might have a kernel of truth to it.
It's the only one I've seen of the wagon.
Edumnds has pictures of the Sedan under future vehicles.
Here are the pics they have posted
But you will be paying $38K+ for the top of the line Passat (V6 AWD). Expect to pay less for the turbo FWD.
M
M
no 4-motion for the moment,and expecting the new passat to be in for mid-november.....but with vw you never know!!!
Unfortunately cant recall where I read it, but the Haldex system is suppose to be superior.
Haldex is usually heavily FWD based (like 100%) until slippage occurs when it can send torque to the rear.
If I am not mistaken it is design decission what is initial torque split so it would be interesting to see the real spec.
Krzys
I have not been able to find similar articles about Haldex drives. When I found out that the TT used that system, I assumed that it was because the TT was originally a front wheel drive car with a "sideways placed" engine, quattro (but not Torsen, because it wouldn't work with the east west engine) was added -- but that the Haldex TT was nominally 95% FWD 5% RWD (instead of nominally 50 50)-- which coincidentally is the same for Volvo's.
Having owned three TT's and taken an impressive drive in a Volvo S60 type R, I can attest that I really found nothing to hang my hat on that would make me claim Haldex was "inferior."
It just seems out of character, so to speak, for the VW/Audi group to NOT use torsen -- since they (especially Audi) have always made such a big deal in their literature about the efficacy of torsen.
Now, then, we've really got it muddied up. I assume VW is doing what it is doing with the new Passat for one primary reason and one secondary reason: money and packaging. You figure out which one is primary and so on. I can only assume that the new Passat's AWD will be determined by the package for the price circumstances. Apparently Torsen just won't work with the packaging considerations that apply.
The Haldex system is compact, relatively lightweight, and is easily integrated in either transverse or longitudinally mounted engines. People used to argue that it s not truly full-time AWD since it is usually implemented to be almost FWD under normal driving. Without additional sensors and electronic, it thus used to be a reactive system – though it would react to wheel spin within a few degrees difference of rotation, which is pretty fast. Still, that's not always what you want. When all 4 wheels are driven, you are much less likely to get into trouble in the first place (e.g., because more traction is available for steering). The modern Haldex implementations therefore are much more tightly integrated with ESP, and have yaw angle measurements, throttle opening, and steering parameters available. Thus, the clutch pack will close proactively under many circumstances, giving the same protection (if not better) than other permanent AWD systems, while maintaining the low fuel consumption of FWD on straight driving.
Moreover, the new Haldex systems can transmit such a large amount of torque that they effectively fully lock up. In that case, 100% of the available torque is transmitted to whatever axle grips (and with open front/rear diffs and traction control, to whatever wheel grips). This is great when starting out or driving slowly on snow and ice. The system will also pretty much lock up when you get started fast from a standstill, on any surface. So, as far as torque is concerned, it doesn’t matter that the front axle is permanently driven and that there is no mechanical center diff. The majority of torque can still go to the back, if advantageous.
This system is similar to the automatic transmission Subaru Forester, except that (AFAIK) in VWs and Audis it uses more input parameters. In the manual transmission Forester and Imprezas, there is an additional mechanical (open) center diff; the clutch pack works around/in addition to that – but without electronics, simply through viscous locking. That has the advantage that you have permanent AWD (without binding) even with the clutch pack open. However, such a system is evidently heavier and uses more gas.
As in the manual transmission Forester, the Torsen center diff requires a double drive shaft to the front (one from the engine, one back to the front), and so is also fairly heavy and requires a longitudinal engine layout. The Torsen's main advantage used to be that it distributes more torque to the more slowly rotating axle (the one with grip) without electronic intervention. In that sense it is simple. However, that is also its biggest drawback: it cannot be integrated into modern cars' ESP systems, because it has no electronic input. It also never fully locks up. So, you might find your self in a situation where one wheel has grip, but you can't move forward. Traction control helps a little, but it pretty much bogs everything down (because the Torsen wants to send more torque to the axle that is most braked by traction control).
Away from theory, all reviews of well-implemented Haldex systems I have read are extremely favorable. In addition to its behavior in sporty driving (on wet or dry roads), it also gets good marks in snow. AutoBild recently had a review of a number of AWD vehicles in snow and ice, and the Golf 4Motion came pretty much out on top.