Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

mikegiller

...and if they do that, like you suggest, then putting the V10 into their exclusive performance division cars would be differentiation in and out of its own. (V10 LF-A, LS, GS, IS... that could be what the hood scoops were needed for.)

ljflx

But this is the most detailed write-up I've seen and it makes a lot of sense to me. According to this there will be the LS460 gas engine at 350HP and probably just a SWB car. Then comes the hybrid version of it as depicted in the LS-SH in Tokyo at 400HP (though I'd bet it is a bit higher - say 420-430) and that is available in SWB or LWB (bear in mind the SWB car will be about 3" longer than the current car to begin with). Finally - on top of that will come the LS-600H which is the new V12 equivalent car but in hybrid form. I'll bet you that car gets the V10 + battery and is over 500HP, perhaps 550HP. I'd see three pricing schemes if this were true. A 65K base car with the ML and Nav as standard (jury is out on AWD on this one).. Then you get a $76K LS-SH which is really an Ultra + hybrid. AWD and LWB probaby can take this to the low 80's. Then finally you get - in limited production - the LS-600H which is 100-105K with everything standard. I'd say a sport version of the LS-SH and the 600H are possible as tuned cars when they get there.

My guess on Lexus silence here is that they are waiting for the final go on the LF-A and then you'll get in rapid sequence - the LS-SH amd LS 460 with details at the Detroi showt, and the LF-A and LS600H with details at the NY show.

I'm speculating but looking at the business logic of all this. Through my connections in the media information business I do know, first hand, that Lexus has a ton of ad money lined up for network TV planned in the next 12 months.

This is a killer strategy. Lexus brings two hybrids - one for the masses and one for the exotics to the industry before anyone brings one out. They also hold in place a base car for the masses and keep it in an affordable area. Changes at the top can happen quickly when new technologies are adopted and this car will get a lot of press and headlines and is being very well received on top of that already.

It will be very interesting.

http://www.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=51009&pg=1

objectiveview

Actually, i'm not too sure about the US, but the JDM honda legend (both sedan and coupe), got the NSX's 3.2L V6.....not too sure about any other versions.

And yeah, liking the look of the LF-A more and more.........but they need to do something about the front lights.......i think thats whats putting it of.

Looking at how lexus operates, everything shares an engine with something..not too sure if they'd want to share the "f1 developed" status of the LF-A with another car, but its definitely possible that a detuned version could end up in an "AMG-like LS" or even SC.

ljflx

"Looking at how lexus operates, everything shares an engine with something"

But Lexus is making a break from how they operated in the past with this world wide debut. We can already see it with AWD and LWB options that are coming. The one size fits all days are over. They'll be sharing as usual in the normal vein of any lux car maker. The 460 engine will go into the GS,SC, Suv's and possibly the IS. The base hybrid wil do the same in the GS and Suv's and possibly the SC. But the V10 hybrid will only work into the LS 600H and will be further tuned for the LFA and the LS600H tuned versions. That's how I'd read the tea leaves at this point

kiyonaga

Hi I am back!
I would first like to apologize for my delay in responding your messages, apparently my grandparents (both are 9 decades old) have suffered a cold and I have to travel back to Sapporo take care of them for a couple of days. Due to the nature that they both are living in small villages, there’s absolutely no opportunity for me access any wireless network, so I was unable to post anything for last week. I already told my assistant to send a brief message to explain my delay, but somehow she wasn’t unable to do so, which is understandable since she doesn’t communicate English very well. Anyways I guess I should begin state my opinion on the LS. But before I begin I need to inform Mr. syswei that I would need a couple of days of research before I might arrive your answers you desperately need. But don’t put too much hope that I can respond them fully since I found some of the questions you asked can involve with materials that Toyota doesn’t want to reveal and I don’t need to explain as to why this is indeed the case.
To pick up where I left off last time, one of the main concerns that many of you were wondering was just how much they should expect to pay for the new LS. Some of them went to believe (from newspaper articles) that the base LS should cost 8 million and a fully loaded hybrid sedan should cost 10 million yen and so forth. But what I am pleased to report was that despite the number of improvements you should expect to see on the LS, the PRICE increase should be very modest. For example from what I told during the auto show, a LS 460 standard wheel base with standard features should only cost you around 6.2 million yen (may-be a bit higher or less) compare to 5.9 million that the current Celsoir are selling now in the market. Unfortunately such standard model would only be available in other countries and the Japanese market would have none of them since most of the buyers usually opt with the fully loaded model instead (which by the way should cost around 8 million yen for standard wheelbase and around 8.3 million for the longer wheelbase), making such less equipped model unnecessary to sale in the marketplace. Just to let you know that the longer wheelbase version should add about 18 to 20 cm of leg room than the standard model, which could bring to the legroom levels pretty close to my 6 year old Century standard wheel base sedan. In addition the LS 600h should only cost, at the most in the low 9 million yen level and I think this is a pretty acceptable price, given with it’s higher levels of fuel economy and power output.
In terms of the question on whether I have an opportunity to view the interior of the LS concept? All I can say, unfortunately was I was unable to do so since my colleagues explain to me this is not yet an appropriate time to unveil, which I don’t understand by the way as to why this is the case. Therfore I hope they would eventually unveil the interior at some point during the autoshow, otherwise we might have to wait until the Detroit Auto to find out.
Anyways I am now heading out to work right now and I do apologize that I have to do a lot of catch up with the flow of the discussion. But I ensure to catch up with the discussion as soon as I can.
Take care

T. Kiyonaga

syswei

Thank you Kiyonaga-san! We look forward to hearing from you again.

syswei

the longer wheelbase version should add about 18 to 20 cm of leg room than the standard model

That's huge, 7-8 inches. Compares to a 14cm difference between the 750i and 750Li.

lexusi

Kiyonaga-san you are most welcome, thanx for the hints, hmm at least we know something for sure now, we know:

1) two platforms, LWB, and SWB
2) Two engines, LS460, and LS600h
3) and modest price increase.

thanx for that, but please we need to hear from you how it looks in reality, how the curves looks and the overall apearance of the car.

concerning the interior and the new things they have in the car? will they release anything or we will have to wait for NAIAS?

other than that, thanx and hope to catch you soon,

Sayonara

Lexusi

syswei

Well, Lexus may have different pricing policies in the US vs Japan, but if we work with percentages (as opposed to current f/x rates), the base LS460 would work out to 60k (up from 57,175), a loaded swb 77.5k, a loaded lwb 80.4k, a (presumably loaded?) LS600h maybe 89k.

If there is a 8+k difference between a loaded lwb 460 and a 600h, I think that would be rather too much (certainly more than the RX330 vs RX400h) unless there are additions, equipment-wise, beyond the hybrid system. More than the market would bear, imho.

ljflx

I see the 600H at or over $100K and I have a pretty good feeling that there will not be a loaded 460. The cars that load up the options (as they exist today) as standard equipment will probably be the hybrids only. Then you add the options of LWB and AWD. I just don't see it making sense, particularly in pricing to get a SWB gas car up so high. No one will buy it and the hybrid will be the car that residualizes high vs the gas car. Let's see further details but the dual hybrids - a base and a high end makes a lot of sense to me. There's been too much talk of V12 power with V6 MPG. I believe strongly that is your 600H and it will not come cheap. In between it makes immense sense for Lexus to have a lower powered hybrid that later becomes the staple car.

callmedrfill

First Ting: Lexus not going over S500 out of the box.

The S500 will list for around $90k, as it does now, when introduced. Why swing over your target?

Value is Lexus' calling card, and with every new introduction, they make sure and emphasize that.

Imagine a LS600h, that gets 27MPG, has 425HP, 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and cost less the same as a S500?

Maybe out of some sort of compassion, a sliver of mercy, they may come over it, but not over $100k. At least I wouldn't. They can't go from $72k max to $100k+ in one generation.

My Hot #2: LS460 gets AWD and LWD options.

Why kill the Golden Goose? That will be your heart and soul, protect it, don't just blatantly milk it. The LS460 will have AWD and LWB as options, but this may take the car past $75k.

I see a $64+k base price, which may (or may not - optional?) include the cost to get an 8-speed box, which Inside Line is ready to confirm, and LWB being $5k, and AWD being about $3k, with other options, the car tops out no more than $85k. Then the 600 starts $5k higher.

And my 3-way is when Lexus talks about a car over the LS, I believe they are speaking of the LF-A.

They have compared it to Aston Martin, SL65, Ferrari F430. All these cars can definitely be considered "above" the LS in price and prestige.

They're not gonna make a better sedan than the LS600h, and they won't be making any V12 cars anytime soon, so V10 is as high as it gets, so, ipso factso, the LF-A is the top.

We now have clarity. Nice!

DrFill

ljflx

The prices we are discussing are really tied to news we don't have pinned down accurately. Auto express is reporting the 600H will be over 500HP. If that is the case there will be a major - as in $20K+ price difference to any other LS. Could it be we get a 350HP gas, that gas engine + low performance battery for the LS-SH producing 400-420HP and a 400HP gas + high performance battery in an LS600H giving 500+HP. The stories are all over the map on this new car. That usually means different sources leaking different model data. If the LF-A gets done maybe they really go thru the roof on HP in the 600H mating that V10 with a high performance battery with potentially up to 600 horses.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/59234/now_ls_is_going_green.html

ljflx

The prices we are discussing are really tied to news we don't have pinned down accurately. Auto express is reporting the 600H will be over 500HP. If that is the case there will be a major - as in $20K+ price difference to any other LS. Could it be we get a 350HP gas, that gas engine + low performance battery for the LS-SH producing 400-420HP and a 400HP gas + high performance battery in an LS600H giving 500+HP. The stories are all over the map on this new car. That usually means different sources leaking different model data. If the LF-A gets done maybe they really go thru the roof on HP in the 600H mating that V10 with a high performance battery with potentially up to 600 horses.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/59234/now_ls_is_going_green.html

xerok00l

http://www.bangkokpost.com/Motoring/28Oct2005_motor54.php

Key sentence: "Power is expected to come from a 4.6-litre V8--up from the existing 4.3-litre--churning out some 370hp, while driving the rear wheels. A more powerful 5.0-litre V8 with some 410hp and four-wheel-drive is also expected."

Did they just made up those numbers or does anyone think they actually got them from a good source?

kiyonaga

As far as I know from my colleagues, there's only "ONE" price point for the LS600h with long wheel base. So I would expect this model should be loaded with lots of optional equipments plus an additional grill that distinct itself from the gas model. On the other hand one of the important things (believe it or not) that I discovered during my discussion with my colleagues was that they never mention anything related the LS500. This in turn have make me to believe that Toyota would not likely (as of today) to place in a 5.0L V10 into the LS series. Of course this is just only my present hypothesis and can subject to change!
I think I might need to re-contact my colleagues soon to see if this is what they have told me last week.
T. Kiyonaga

syswei

Thanks again, Kiyonaga! Our forum is privileged to count you as a member.

callmedrfill

A V10 is unnecessary and redundant, with a superpowered hybrid available, who would want a V10 and lose 10-15MPG in the process?

The Hybrid will be loaded, AWD, LWB, ML, with few options, and be priced at or slightly above the S500, and the LS460 will have plenty to fill the gap from $65k to $90k or so.

AWD, LWB, Ultra Lux Pkg., 8-speed could be an option, Bose Suspension, 19" Wheels. That should account for $20k. Then the 600 can start.

One thing I might see is the V10 at some point becoming the base engine, and the V8 being used for the SC, GS and IS only. Then you may have LS500 and LS600.

I question the efficiency and smoothness of a V10 being enough to pass muster in an LS.

DrFill

gossiptracker

I disagree, the LS does not have enough market traction to garner 100k, regardless if it's a LWB hybrid. There is just no market for such a car, and Lexus will not price above 90k. The first 100k vehicle from Lexus will be the LF-A production version.

objectiveview

some incorerent rammbling and abstract points to note:
1) Didnt Toyota already say that the hybrid would have a V8 power plant? whats with the speculation about a V10 hybrid?
2) Toyota HAS a V12 engine................ seeVVV
3) Maybe a car above the LS does not necessarily mean the LF-A....toyota produces a V12 sub limo transport car akin to the Maybach called the century
4) Did i miss a toyota press release saying the 4.6 is going into the GS to replace the 4.3? whats the 450 hybrid for then? i dont see the 4.6 being used outside the LS line for anything but a performance based GS/IS

nvbanker

I have to say at this point - that I think putting a V-10 in a car this size, with gas prices and availability like it is, is GM level thinking. This is not the time. Hybrids, sure, though I don't yet buy into that technology as a staying strategy, but a V-10? Even the rich people will question the wisdom of buying that monster in this car. You just don't need it.

objectiveview

well said........

Just occured to me though, two points of curiosity
1) what happens in Japan to the Toyota Celsior, Aristo, Crown, Mark X (& Chasers) ?? will they be sold alongside Lexus? They cost pretty much the same......
2) Hybrids and water......i dunno how toyotas hybrid system is set up or how the cells/motors are enclosed. How reliable are they to drive through water and how safe are they in a crash?

nvbanker

Good question: My firemen friends in my neighborhood are way against Hybrids. They are concerned about the weight of the batteries in a crash, and the car shorting out in a crash, making it even more dangerous to rescue passengers. Clearly, there are concerns, but if anybody can make them work well and safely, it would be Toyota.

nexuslexus

As far as I have been able to find out, Toyota/Lexus aren't planning to release any more information on the LS before the North American International Auto Show- though I will keep you posted if I hear anything new.

ljflx

Logically everyone is right about this. So why are their cars with V12's. It's not about logic, it's about bragging and there are people that will buy a car like that.and the auto rags will shout to kingdom come about it. Which is why mfrs. build them in limited supply. Let's be logical about the price of gas. If it's $3 a gallon (BTW in central NJ I'm as low as $2.52 for super again and diesel is back to 40-50 cents a gallon higher) and you get 15MPG and drive 12K miles a year that is a $2400 a year gas bill. If you are in a V8 that does 150% better in mpg you are still paying $1,600. So it's all of $800 cheaper on a car that may cost $30-50K more. No rich person will scream about that if he/she is willing to pay the price premium to begin with. When it gets dicy and the pressure mounts on someone's psyche is if there are gas lines.

ljflx

" Imagine a LS600h, that gets 27MPG, has 425HP, 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and cost less the same as a S500? "

Agreed - it would blow the S500 out of the water plus it looks a lot better as well.

But imagine instead if the car you describe is your Lexus LS-SH at $78-84K and the LS 600H is instead a 550HP car that is priced at $95K (barely over an S500 and way lower than an S600) and topping out at $100-102K. Then Lexus addresses the V12 crowd with a green car. Will they do it? Don't know - the news on this car is really confusing and the Canadian link I posted yesterday paints that type of a possibility.

jchan2

I think they would dump the Windom, Harrier, Celisor, and Aristo, (along with the Altezza) but so far they've been selling them side by side in Hong Kong.

callmedrfill

If Toyota wanted the Century here, it would've been here by now. Same with the V12, as Toyota has been building both for at least a decade.

So don't hold your breathe for either.

As we have seen with magnificent beast like the Supra, MR-2 Turbo, and soon-to-be-late Land Cruiser, Toyota is not a big fan of limited production vehicles. Another knock against a V12.

Of course, with the LF-A, this stance will be modified somewhat.

The V-12 is the next Beta!

V8 now make 400HP, so why buy/sell a V12? You do have to, as Toyota likes to say, make a business case for making something like that. It's a whim at this point.

As for the price of a 600h, I would find out what Merc is selling the 500 for in Feb, then lay it just under neath it (by like $500), and see what Mercedes does next.

Mercedes sets the Market. Lexus takes the Market!

It's like hitting an old lady over the head and stealing her groceries. I feel kinda bad for the old girl!

DrFill

mikegiller

Soarer (SC 430), Celsior (LS 430), Aristo (GS), Altezza (IS), Windom (ES 330), Harrier (RX), are all scrapped. Toyota is still producing Crowns and the Mark X as they were never Lexus to begin with.

I am sure Toyota thought about how the car would respond to a puddle. I am sure of it!

ljflx

Well we had about 21" of rain here in central NJ this month and I saw a number of Prius' driving thru deep puddles with no problems at all. BTW the Euros seem to be abandoning the diesel only strategy and are also going hybrid gas and hybrid diesel. Diesel is again the most expensive gas around my parts by a landslide number. But the GS and LS will beat them to market by 1-2 full years.

nvbanker

Oh, Dr.: I was visiting my Lexus dealer the other day to get a new key programmed, and it took way too long, so I was checking out the showroom while I waited. They had every model on display there, except the LX470. Is it out of production for 2006? Will it be replaced?

nexuslexus

I know i'm not the Dr. but there is a 2006 LX. It will be replaced, but not this year.

BTW... getting keys reprogramed has always been a pain for me. First they require to to round up every single one of your keys, at which point they then reset them all. A- this means I have to find all the keys and B- I have to collect everyone's keys, take the right one off the ring, then when I'm done, I have to put it back. A lot of effort for having radio frequency keys, especially considering I have never had my car stolen, nor known anyone who has, RF key or not.

nvbanker

Thanks for the answer, nexus - and you're so right. They took forever to program the keys for me, but at least they gave the old ones back to me, so now I have an abundance of keys to lock up The main issue I had was the 3 hours I had to wait. My Lincoln dealer just gives me a car and says we'll call you. They were nice and all, but slow....

callmedrfill

I wish I had a hint of a clue of an idea!

Supposedly, the next LX would be based off of the next Sequioa.

Which would be based off of the Next Tundra.

Which won't appear for another year.

So the Sequioa wouldn't be for another year.

Which means the LX wouldn't be for ANOTHER year.

I COULD see Lexus ditching that genre, and going big with the LF-X concept for 2008, and leaving the Range Rover class, and starting a large Crossover class.

The LF-X is VERY big in person, much larger than the FX, around the size of a SRX. That should've been out by now. I guess it has gotten lost in the shuffle with the new IS and GS and GX and RX. There are only so many new vehicles you can put out in 2 years.

DrFill

nvbanker

Well, they've made the GX look as artificially big as possible for now, lifting it, skirting the wheels and fenders, and putting huge wheels on it. I don't know that I'd put a ton of money into that bigmobile right now - gas being what it is and all....

ljflx

At one point I had heard the GX would gain size and become what the LX is now and the LX becomes a super cushy opulently lux SUV that shared its' platform with the Sequoia. The HPX or LF-X (however people want to remember it's debut at auto shows) was then supposed to flow into the crack left open by the GX as a bigger RX that is much more car or minivan oriented. It was actually supposed to be based on the GS platform and be a real good handler. So you have big and small car-like SUV's and big and small truck like SUV's. Whether or not any of this was ever really planned or still holds water today I don't know.

MB may be proving to be a good guinea pig to see if there is a market for that type of vehicle with its' R-class. Personally I think Lexus would have been a lot better at opening that market than MB though. Me - I'd have written a check on the spot at the NY auto show if that HPX was ready for market and based on those near me and reviewing the car - so would many of them.

syswei

MB may be proving to be a good guinea pig to see if there is a market for that type of vehicle.

Particularly if the R sells poorly, which it may, I think Lexus should try to make the HPX/LF-X more SUV-like in its marketing if not its substance. The RX is essentially marketed as an SUV, not some sort of new-fangled "we invented a new category, come try it out" - and has been a smashing success. If Lexus makes the HPX/LF-X then imho they should take the same approach. Put in SUV-type seating, not the 2nd and 3rd row captain's seats as in the R. And market it as a SUV with better MPG, not as a new category of vehicle.

nexuslexus

What I would really like to see is a sienna competitor, what the MB R-class was supposed to be- a Town and Country sized, seven seat crossover.

While the sienna XLS Limited (i have one of those too) is nice, it is not as well made or luxury oriented as my lexi.

callmedrfill

But a picture is worth a thousand words on the R-Class, or as they call it in other forums, the Hearse-class! :P

And $70k? The HPX/LF-X wouldn't be mid-$50's!

I would leave all Revolutionary vehicles to others if I were them.

Not much Chrysler-magic in that one.

DrFill

ljflx

That R-class really does have a hearse look in its rear. It looked real good in proto-type but turned out looking terrible in production. There's no guarantees that the HPX will live up to its proto-type styling. But if it does it will be a knockout. One thing for sure - the Jetson interior style will not make it to the production car.

I agree with Syswei - if they build it - and they most certainly should - market it as a wagon type SUV with car-like handling, ride and gas mileage.

carlisimo

A Lexus V-10 would have to be the theoretical engine going into the LF-A, wouldn't it? If that ones' getting nearly 500hp from 4.0L, it'll be a bit high strung for a luxury car.

I suspect we'll see a move away from value, though. Lexus finally has a look of its own, and the brand has made a name for itself when it comes to luxury. They'll be trying to get away from the "cheaper Mercedes-Benz" thing, because now they can. If they need another reason, Hyundai's going to be coming after that title in a generation or two.

callmedrfill

Hyundai still has plenty of work to do to become a paragon of quality, like Toyota has, and the fact that just because they make now decent cars with many features and DECENT quality, doesn't mean we have another Lexus in the making.

I think Audi was to be the "cheaper Mercedes", and that has followed VW's road to inconsistency.

If Lexus stays near, but not in Mercedes ballpark for another 10 years of so, Mercedes may HAVE TO come to them! I wouldn't start picking on their market strategy now.

Value is valuable.

DrFill

ljflx

Lexus will play the value card for a long time to come and for a simple reason - their build costs are much lower than Mercedes. The price ranges on Lexus cars will increase as they build in greater features, options and choices of LWB and AWD IE. But I agree with callmedrfill that the value proposition will hold and the longer-term market will adjust to them and not the other way around.

jchan2

I'd like to see a Lexus van, sure the Sienna XLE Limited looks great, but sometimes it never hurts to have that slanted L badge.... (not to mention the wonderful dealer service, loaner cars, and Mark Levinson stereo)

nvbanker

I'm missing something, jchan - my Lexus dealer is certainly nice and professional. But "wonderful dealer service, loaner cars and Mark Levinson stereo"?

Wonderful dealer service: Went in to get a replacement key - mine cracked. When I arrived at the time the lovely lady who called me told me to, they had no record of my appointment. Still, they took me in - and took 3 hours to program the key. I requested a loaner car - my Lincoln dealer never fails to give me a loaner car even for an oil change - no chance, unless the car would be there for over 8 hours on warranty service. So, that's not wonderful to me..... I guess Lincoln has spoiled me on loaner cars. Also, I wasn't impressed with the appointment snafu.

The Mark Levinson stereo, I have always failed to understand what's so great about it. It has absolutely no base whatsoever, and if you do tune it for some base, and put in some music that has it, you'll rattle the speaker in the back. That's not great. Maybe you know how to tune it better than I do - I have Nav so the audio is on the screen. It's so heavy on treble, although I will admit you get some stuff through on the music that other stereos don't pull out - but it's all in the treble range. Again, the last two Lincolns I've had have had an Alpine in it, and whatever my current one is - they have both walloped the tail of the Mark Levinson.

What am I doing wrong with the stereo to appreciate it, jchan?

rgsw

Can't see what the above posts have to do with the "2007 Lexus". Perhaps it should be posted on the LS 430 forum?

Kirstie_H

Let's do try to stick to the upcoming LS rather than veering off on current model conversation. Thanks!

jchan2

I don't know. I've never had a Mark Levinson stereo. Infiniti uses Bose.
Well, a Lexus dealer's service would certainly be better than the Toyota dealer, but I guess I don't know, since I don't own one. (a Lexus)

Anyways, back to the 2007 LS. Any word on pricing yet?

dennykrane

Thank you rgsw and kristie h ........this post really gets off the topic at times.

I would like and hope to hear about the interior of the 2007 ls. The interiors have always been outstanding so I think that it will continue.

Also wuold like to hear about the option packages that lexus usually have .

I guess these things will develope soon.

Thanks DK

callmedrfill

That they won't bite BMW's interior rhyme, like the S-Class has, and there won't be anything like an iDrive.

My feeling is if Lexus does intend to stretch the dynamics of a car's ability to work with it's owner better, it will spend it efforts on voice activation improvements, as this does not require more buttons to master, or compromise ergonomics.

DrFill

jchan2

I hope it doesn't have iDrive.