Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

syswei

No one is predicting an LS350, just the possibility of an LS450h....which would overlap with the 2007 GS no more than the 2005 LS overlapped with the 2005 GS.

ljflx

My guess is the 600H will be a 450HP car. The 460 will be 360HP and the potential LS500 would be 400HP. They'd want bold - in your face - nice round numbers on the new entrants.

OAC - car looks better and better to me every time I look and it looked great the moment I looked at it to begin with.

mikegiller

I don't think so, and I usually agree with you. Those horsepower number aren't different enough from each other to differentiate or justify the amount of models.

Realistically I could see:

LS 460 - 370 HP
LS 500 - 400 HP
LS 600h - 440 HP

I am positive that the newly engineered hybrid system will be able to churn out a little more than 55 HP on a horsepower biased, no compromise design, especially when the RX 400h is putting out 45 HP on top of the 3.3 L with HSD.

The 4.6L/5.0L mated with HSD will do better.

Something tells me we will be impressed.

syswei

The Japanese site has a new video in the LF-Sh movie section, click a selection under "booth": http://lexus.jp/ms/

oac

My guess is the 600H will be a 450HP car. The 460 will be 360HP and the potential LS500 would be 400HP. They'd want bold - in your face - nice round numbers on the new entrants.

Sounds about right to me as well... Both you and Mike have similar numbers... These models better make good on their promise...

Yea...the LF-Sh prototype is a beaut ! A lil' this... a lil' that of tweak and its production time. I have my money waiting to hand to Lexus for an LS460, with Performance Package. I expect Nav/ML to be standard features on this car... All for $70K. 350HP is plenty good for me.... Already the 290 on my LS is plenty powerful enough, any more and I'll be paying lots of speeding tickets to my local sheriff...:)

gossiptracker

To be exact, your LS has only 278 hp.....Lexus has now updated their website to account for the shortfall....However, it has a great acceleration even at those hp numbers, although psychologically it does hurt going from 290 to 278...

I don't think the LS460 will have over 350 hp personally. With the exception of the IS, Lexus has never tried to play the hp game and I doubt they will have an entry level LS with 380hp....No way, it's not Lexus' style...Judging by the conservative, yet improved shape of the new LS, they will play the hp conservatively as well..

I do not think Lexus will have 3 engine choices either...They do not implement this on any of their current lineup....I think the LWB will be the LS600h and there will be no LS500....I really hope I am wrong though....

callmedrfill

First Ting: No LS350h

That would kind of nullify the GS450h, no?

And my #2: Two models?

A $65k LS460. A $5k Premium for LWB. And a $89k LS600H LWB AWD.

If the 500 only adds 40-50HP, why bother?

The only way I see that happnin' is the LS460 is SWB only, the LS500 is LWB only. The larger engine, extra std. features, and larger interior would justify a $10-15k price increase.

It would probably start where a LS460 w/Ultra Luxury Pkg. would top out (near $80k).

If there is a 500, I would add another $15k to the 600 price, with virtually everything standard, AWD, and the exclusivity of having such a rare Hybrid LS, the base could reach the mid-upper $90's!

A lot of this is contingent on where the latest, but not greatest, S-Class come to market.

The LS600H may be priced right on top of the S500?

This should be very interesting.

DrFill

idele

From the Tokyo Motor Show press release the power plant of the GS450h is a big technological advance. See my post yesterday on the GS450h forum.on it

mikegiller

If so, then why make an LS 600h that has a big V8 in it? Why not just make an LS 450h with under 400 HP and be done with it? Because they are playing the horsepower game now. It is possible to change you know?

Lexus is now trying to steer clear of bland and into the future. They are doing a good job at it as well.

You don't make a big 'splash' and shock the world by being the slow, modest guy.

ljflx

Prices are too high - IMO. I'd say the 460 is 63-65K and there is no longer just a premium car that holds in the upper 50's available. The LWB edition which is porobably the LS500 is $67K topping out at about $75K loaded up. Then you get to the 600H in LWB trim only starting around $77-78K but loaded up topping out around $85K. I think there will be options on the 600H that won't be available on the other LS modes. Maybe a speciall suspension, customized entertainment etc. That still leaves room for an LS super edition starting around $100K if they go there. The prices will seem a lot higher to many because there won't be any discounting on this car for a long time. I really hope it comes out in April. The longer the period to my lease is up the better. I'm due in late March 2007.

nvbanker

" it's not as if the current MB line up is such low quality, the old M class was the one solely responsible for the poor showing of MB in JD power studies. S class is right behind the LS on JD power IQS. The problems they've had were related to electronics, it's not as if their cars break down on the freeway."

What you say is essentially true, gossip - I would add, however, though, that in purchasing my last Sedan - I test drove an S-500 for a week, and the LS430 for 4 days, on an out of town trip, 400 miles. The S had a long list of little "things" that needed to be fixed before I would take delivery, admittedly none of them were power train related. But the car was full of ghosts. The passenger headrest went up and down and up and down at will while you were driving. Tons of cabin lights were out, and some lights on the dash were on, etc., there was a wind whistle in the driver's door, and the COMAND was half inoperable. I was still prepared to buy it, because I love the looks and feel of the cabin, and the exterior looks too. Also, love the way it drives.

Then I drove the LS. Nothing was wrong. NOTHING! It's not as pretty, and not as comfortable inside, but it's adequate, and not one issue had to be taken care of.

As much as I loved the design of the S, I can't afford down time. I became afraid of the MB, and bought the Lexus. I'm not sorry, except that I will likely never own an S-class like the beautiful one they make now, and I'm not sure I like the new one that's coming out.....

callmedrfill

A $4k price increase for a bigger engine and LWB?

Then who would buy the 460?

The 460 will be the volume model, and will be well protected.

And higher models will be inticing enough to get you to THINK about going in another $10-15k.

Having sold New Cars for a time, I have some background on how options and product mix form a strategy for a product line, and how the dealers can sell options and/or higher trim lines. Maybe someone will come to a dealer looking for a LS500, but end up being "sold" on a LS460 with many option pkgs.

Companies make more on cars sold with many options than a higher model with few options.

With major options like LWB, Bigger engines, Ultra Lux Packages, AWD, and Hybrid engines. A $25-30k spread from entry level to Fully Loaded is more than reasonable.

Similar products (12 cylinder S and 7) from Germany are $115k and up, so a $20-25k value advantage, at $90-95k, seems more than fair to me.

Lexus could probably get up under $100k, but will be conservative and stay close to $90k at the height.

Why sell something so good as an AWD, LWB, 400HP, Hybrid LS for $78k?

A S450 will go for that. So will a 750. An Ultra Lux LS460 will be $78k!

With Hybrids so hot right now, $90k is a low estimate.

DrFill

ljflx

Well - we'll see. I was implying $78K as entry and $85K as tops with options btw. We can only speculate at this point. Remember one of the auto mags said the 600H woukd start at $75K. Maybe there will be a SWB version of the 600H. I'd think the 460 would just be a standard car - maybe with nav and ML included and go in the mid 60's. If you want the fancy do-dads then you have to move up to the 500 and the 600H. It really will come down to how powerful that 600H is. If it's a V10-12 power output then maybe it gets into the 90's as you say. Whatever the price of the 600H is - you know there'll be a wait list for it.

I think when Lexus said this would be 89 all over again it's because there is somethng planned that we are clueless about. Maybe it's that Bose suspension, maybe it's something else. But there is going to be something exclusive and desirable available (beyond hybrid power) on that 600H - IMO.

anthonyp

After checking this out, a real v12 costs forty to fifty thousand dollars more in the other lines....I think it is way overpriced, and I further think most other people think so too....I would know Lexus would be a better deal, but they probably won`t rock the boat with what we would think to be a really good deal, say ten thousand dollars more that a well equipped ls....Their H model with the extra torque starrting out would give the appearance of a v12, but it would have shortcomings in the long haul Tony

syswei

After watching the new turntable video, I'm beginning to like the design more, though I still find the sides to be too flat and in need of more sculpting.

http://lexus.jp/ms/

...click on "LF-Sh" then "movie" then "booth"

lexa

Current base LS is 60K and fully loaded 69K
Base LS460 SWB RWD with 350HP V8 60K
Fully Loaded LS460 SWB RWD with 350HP V8 70K
Fully Loaded LS460 SWB AWD with 350HP V8 75K
Fully Loaded LS600h LWB AWD with 450HP V10 90K (The RX400h demands a 7K premium over the regular AWD RX so 15K for LWB and h is reasonable)

If there is a third model it has to be somewhere in the middle of 90K and 70K so for 80K we could get a LS500 SWB RWD with 400HP V10.

But more importantly, in order to get 450HP LS600h you need a 400HP engine. What do think it is? It is the 400HP V10. Doesn't that make sense?

mikegiller

But more importantly, in order to get 450HP LS600h you need a 400HP engine. What do think it is? It is the 400HP V10. Doesn't that make sense?

I don't know about that. With the RX 400h's hybrid putting out 45 horsepower on top of the 3.3L I highly doubt that this new HSD will only be able to put 50 more horsepower on top of a potent engine like, say the 4.6L which I believe will be in the 380 HP range. Add HSD to the 4.6L and I think that it will put out somewhere of an increase of 60 HP to get it to 440 HP.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the HSD mated to the V10, but I doubt that would happen, as that would be like an LS 650h in my mind.

Just my opinion though.

gossiptracker

Well either way, I'm glad you came to the Lexus family. I am not disputing the fact that a Lexus is better made, but rather that the S class is not as poorly made as some people in this forum seem to make it out to be. I've test driven an S500, and was quite impressed with it, however, it was not for a week so if there were more serious problems with it like the ones you experienced, I wouldn't have had a chance to notice them. I would be furious if those things happened to me.

gossiptracker

Who says they are putting a big V8 with a hybrid? Those are all speculations that this forum has created, nothing concrete. Toyota/Lexus are extremely secretive, no one will know for sure until the car comes out.

I am still not convinced they intend to play the hp game. Time will tell. Even with a hybrid, I highly doubt the hp will push over 400....Besides, a hybrid performance vehicle is completely untested in the marketplace, you are adding a few hundred pounds in weight, and could throw off your weight distribution...We will see how the GS 450 will do. At the same time, I applaud Lexus' hybrid strategy. They cannot compete on pure hp since BMW and MB have years of technical knowledge (F1) to make it work, while Lexus would be a newcomer.

syswei

I am still not convinced they intend to play the hp game. Time will tell. Even with a hybrid, I highly doubt the hp will push over 400....

IMHO if they're naming it the LS600h, I think it is a fair bet that the performance (combining HP and torque) will be in the same ballpark as an S600 or 760.

Besides, a hybrid performance vehicle is completely untested in the marketplace, you are adding a few hundred pounds in weight, and could throw off your weight distribution

You do increase weight substantially but since the battery is likely under the rear seat or in the trunk, you have the opportunity to come closer to 50/50 weight distribution. Past LSs have been slightly nose-heavy.

syswei

Just an observation....we spend an awful lot of time here talking about hp, but when push comes to shove, most of us won't be opting for the highest-hp version of the LS (or S or 7 or A8 or whatever). I'm pretty sure I won't.

gossiptracker

Yes I totally agree with you. However, in order to elevate your brand to truly compete worldwide in all markets with BMW and MB you need to have models in your lineup which have a high output engine. The new S500 will produce 382 hp (5.5 L displacement), and the new LS has to be able to match that hp output or top it (not necessarily in the base model obviously) in order to be taken seriously, especially in Europe.

gossiptracker

IMHO if they're naming it the LS600h, I think it is a fair bet that the performance (combining HP and torque) will be in the same ballpark as an S600 or 760.

I'm not so sure. The S600 has in excess of 500 hp. I don't think the new LS600h will be able to match that. A good measuring stick however will be the output from the new GS450h. I don't believe they have released any hp numbers?

syswei

On the GS450h they've only said something like "well in excess of 300hp". Helpful, huh?

I think we don't know enough about the LS600h to rule out high numbers. BTW the 760 has "only" 438hp, which isn't that far of a reach for a V8+hybrid, while the S600's 493hp would be tougher.

While the LF-Sh is described as having a V8, we don't know it's displacement (just speculating , but could it be a re-bored 4.6, getting to 5 liters???). And it's possible (just speculating) that the LS600h will have a more powerful (more powerful electric motors, more battery) or newer technology hybrid system than the GS450h. Until Lexus says something, we just won't know.

mikegiller

"This last trend suits the Lexus brand very well. Rather than develop a large, gas-guzzling V12 engine to power its top-range future luxury models, so that its LS series can compete head on with Audi's top-line A8 L W12 quattro, BMW's 760iL or Mercedes-Benz's S600, Lexus may offer its upcoming redesigned V8 with a hybrid option, delivering upwards of 400-horsepower with the fuel economy of a V6.

If this sounds outlandish, consider that the new RX 400h musters the power of a V8, matching BMW's X5 4.4 from zero to 100 km/h, while achieving four-cylinder economy car levels of fuel consumption. Pretty impressive."

Source: link title

"Lexus is giving strong consideration to launching a brand-within-a-brand of high-performance vehicles, akin to Mercedes' AMG line-up. The big difference, Clements told TheCarConnection, is that all the Lexus models would be hybrids. The Toyota division will closely watch the market reaction to the GS450h and RX400h to see if it should proceed with the hybrid performance project. Clements described the performance hybrid strategy as a "shield" against environmental concerns, promoting the idea of getting V-12 power with V-6 mileage."

Source: link title

Everyone can come to their own conclusion.

My conclusion is that this will all go through; that would be good for me, as I have intentions of purchasing a hi-po Lexi in the future.

lexusguy

The IS350 proves that Lexus is definitely playing the hp game. They trumped everybody, even the mighty Nissan VQ. The Lexus of a few years ago never would have made an engine with that much power.

anthonyp

Doesn`t the current model with the extra gear in the transmission, rated in the high two hundreds acelerate more quickly than the competition? Just a question Tony

motownusa

Agreed. If Lexus is serious about taken seriously, they need to offer a real V12 powerplant with close to 450 HP. A hybrid powertrain that gives the performance of a V12 isn't going to cut it. It is a great concept from a performance and fuel efficiency point of view but you can't argue against the prestige or the power of 12. Come on Lexus we demand a real V12 just like your competition.

rgsw

IMO most of the above postings should be posted in the "High End Luxury Marques" forum and not under the "2007 LS" forum. I don't care to read comparisons to MB & BMW and Lexus in general in this forum. This forum was designed for comments on the "2007 LS"

mikegiller

Yessir, you are right.

LS 430 - 0-60 mph in 5.9 secs. (278 hp, 312 lb-ft)

S 430 - 0-60 mph in 7.4 secs. (275 hp, 295 lb-ft)

S 500 - 0-60 mph in 6.3 secs. (302 hp, 339 lb-ft)

Lexus comming out with a 4.6 L and 5.0 L should prove quite exciting

Kirstie_H

Bingo! Further posts not directly related to the upcoming LS will be removed without notice. This is not a comparisons discusssion, and we're focusing on the LS here.

mikegiller

...it's so hard...

...sigh...

...10-4

callmedrfill

That's so '90's!! :P

Welcome to the 21st Century, folks!

Granted, the New LS may add 100-150 lbs, bringing it to around 4100 lbs., it would still have a healthy weight advantage over a 7 or S, much less a Pheaton (over 1000 lbs heavier!!).

No one will admit it, or see it this way, but the current LS, at 5.9 0-60, is already a fast car.

Would you rather have 0-60 in 5.0, 450HP, and get 17 MPG from a V12

Or would take 5.5 0-60, 390HP from a V8/Hybrid, and get 27MPG?

I think the LS is the beginning of the end of the V-12.

Who here is penny wise?

Who wants to be pound foolish?

Nothing exceeds like excess, but also at this point in time, a LS-level car getting 25MPG or more consistently, would be more prestigious and valuable than another 400HP land yacht, no?

DrFill

mikegiller

A V12 would simply be redundant.

I totally agree with you on this point: Adding the first ultra-luxury, most technologically advanced hybrid V8 to the high-end luxury segment is bragging rights in its own; much more prestige in this.

All the information I have read has stated that the new LS would be lighter than the current model by using lightweight materials and aluminum.

You really think that the new V8 HSD will get 0-60 in 5.5? Cmon', who are you trying not to offend here? I would have thought that you would give a little more credit to this new design.

My prediction for the LS 600h will be 0-60 in 4.8-5.0 seconds!

LS 430 gets 5.9 seconds.

Let's say that the new LS 460 gets 5.5-5.7 seconds. My guess for the LS 500 will be 5.2-5.4 seconds.

There is no way in hell that the LS 600h will get 5.5 seconds. That means that the LS 460 would probably get something like same times as the LS 430, a step backward in my mind.

Don't you just love horsepower?

gshocksv

F-1? Well, Toyota finished the season ahead of BMW Williams, so I don't think that's a valid argument.

True is, hp isn't that hard to obtain, just look at all the American muscle cars. HP is nothing without handling and balance, and I think MBZ and BMW have both done a pretty good job on. However, I also think the sport is overrated in this segment. Mercedes won't be selling too many S65 or S600, or even just S55. BMW is not selling that many 760 either, but you still need something to show the world that you can wrestle with the big boys. So I think the top of the line Lexus LS needs to have 400+ hp.

speedntktz

It's not just all about horsepower. Just ask the folks at Infinity. Look at the Lexus philosophy of balance and harmony. They put out a product that has so much more depth than power windows and a HEMI. Lexus balance Performance, Technology and Luxury in one package. The idea is not to over emphasize any one of those traits but rather have a total package that seemlessly intergrates all.

Porsche has never been a winner in the horsepower game, but they likely are the most profitable car maker on the planet. Plenty of other brands post better HP numbers yet Porsche has an incredibly loyal following. Lexus will have a similar following that is about how you feel about the car. Not 0-60 times, v12s or max horsepower.

The new LS will have a ton of new technology that Toyota has yet to let out of the bag. As news comes out about the GS450h, expect many of those goodies to be a part of the new LS.

lexusi

Well well, we r still waiting for kiyonaga-san but he seems to be busy,

Anyhow, concerning the new tech implemented in the LS, there is some nice point mentioned in the overview of the GS450h at lexus japan. it is mentioned:

The GS450h also features a world's first in safety techonolgy a pre-crash safety system so thorough, it even determines wether a driver is likely not looking straight ahead"

thats quit new here, i heard that Lexus was trying to develop a system, that has cameras focused on the driver head, and if the driver head moved as if he is not looking staight along with high speed and using the radar in the system that can detect obsticles, the car can warnes the driver or even brake if he is not paying attention?!

Can this be the new system or so called advanced lane departure system?? or its even a new different one?

I think we will see some great surprises with the new LS, believe me those Japanese know how to play it, and they play it well, I LOVE IT.

You can notice they repeat it again in the 2nd page of more information:

The GS450h is also equipped with the pre-crash safey system, which even has a driver-monitoring function that takes into account factors both inside and outside the car

Hmm, it feels wierd but iam starting to believe they have this system in the GS450h.

You can notice that they call it the pre-crash system, where the already exist system is the pre collision system?? so will the new LS have this new technology?

I dont know until when we have to wait to see the interior of the LF-Sh and the new techologies they have but iam afraid they wont release anything else, no interior pics and no more information, maybe until NAIAS ?? who knows, this makes me want to cry

I LOVE U LEXUS, DONT DO THIS TO ME, RELEASE SOME INFORMATION ABOUT THE LS, PICS, ANHTHING!

link--> http://lexus.jp/ms and go for GS450h,

cry u MB, BM lovers. LS WILL BRING UR GARBAGE TO DEATH!

Lexus

nissman

All I have read is speculation... I thought we had just started the Tokyo Auto Show!

lexusguy

I know a few car companies have been working on systems to determine whether you have fallen asleep at the wheel or not, but this is the first I've heard of anything thats actually production ready. If it is, congrats to Lexus. Infiniti beat the Germans to market with LDW, and this will give Lexus a chance to do the same.

jchan2

There's a reason why this brand is the number one selling luxury car line in America.

Read above.

killerbunny

I do not think Lexus will have 3 engine choices either...They do not implement this on any of their current lineup....I think the LWB will be the LS600h and there will be no LS500....I really hope I am wrong though....

Actually, you are right. My guess is the same: Lexus offers only 2 layouts per model: LS460 and LS600h lwb.

If you look at MB, they have about 7 classes and maybe >100 models when AMG is counted. Good way to keep customers confused.

callmedrfill

The GS will offer 3 engines when the 450h comes out.

So will the IS when they get Hybrid Tech for 2008.

So this may in fact be the Lexus Way from now on!

One more ting. I don't want Big Brother warning me if I look the wrong way, or if I hit a road reflector, or if I have gas, or if the light turned green.

If you're gonna be a bad driver, be a bad driver. If you are an aggressive driver (like me), fine. I don't want constant backtalk and arguing from my car.

How many wives do I need? :P

DrFill

lexa

I agree I do not like a talking car either. As a matter of fact I do not like to talk to my car either. I have miscommunications with my car through Voice Command Just like my wife! I think Voice Command was created by the Females on the development team because they just like to talk and order people around and if people are not around they order the car around!

garyh1

How many wives do I need?

Honey--

All your things are on the front lawn. I guess you'll need at least one more.

[Signed]

The former Mrs. Fill

nvbanker

"I've always thought there was some resemblance between the current S-class and the Taurus as well."

Just like when Mercedes copied the Ford Granada in 1975? lol.......

ljflx

"Porsche has never been a winner in the horsepower game, but they likely are the most profitable car maker on the planet."

I have to assume you mean on a unit car basis because Toyota makes more money in 3 weeks than Porsche makes in a year.

LS500 - big questionmark. I can only see this car being the LWB edition of the LS460. I don't think Lexus would restrict the LWB car to only the LS600H. If you are going to invest in a LWB and just about all of your competition is 6" or so longer than your car than you give it greater availability than just the 600H.

motownusa

I think having more than one V8 makes sense. It will give people more choices. If you want more luxury than out right performance get the LS460. I think the LS460 will probably have around 330 to 340 hp. That would be a nice step up from the current 278 hp. Those who want more can step up to the LS500 with around 380 or so HP. I hear the next S500 will get close to 380 Hp. The reason IMHO Lexus needs a V12 is because of the prestige a 12 cylinder car brings to the table. I think one reason Lexus isn't mentioned in the same league as MB, BMW, or even AUDI is because of a lack of V12. I don't know if a hybrid powertrain with the power of a V12 has the same effect as the real thing. But Toyota is soooo rich they would probably do both.

anthonyp

I for one would like a v12 or even a v10....It`s just something that being rational about doesn`t work for me.......There is a big BUT in here though...Imagine an extra fifty thousand dollars for it.....Now I`m with you....Like everything the cost gets away from us all....The new Lexus with the electrical motors will surely be a winner, but still a ways off Tony .

cyclone4

I don't know if I am in the minority or not, but this whole argument of Lexus having a V12 available makes zero sense to me. We are now in a totally different world in terms of what is prestigious or important than we were just a few years ago. The world is now much more concerned about the environment and fuel efficiency than it was in the past. Does it really make any difference between let's say 350 horsepower and 400 hp? Come on folks, who gives a hoot? Do we really need "rocket" engines here on the ground? In fact, I am of the opinion that most people would look down upon those car manufacturers that produce V12 size engines. Why are so many people here on this forum so obsessed about "the bigger the engine and more horsepower the better"? Isn't there a point where too much more horsepower is a total waste? I am one that can afford the most expensive MB or the most expensive Lexus, but I don't see the sense in buying a V12 size engine. Just give me luxury, comfort, safety, reasonable power, fuel efficiency, and all the technological marvels that go along with these qualities and I will be very happy. Am I really in the minority on this issue or what am I missing?

mikegiller

you are not. I am 100% agreeing with you here for these reasons:

1) More fuel economy in HSD-V8 combo

2) Better low end torque

3) Same horsepower as V12 w/fuel economy of V6 to boot

4) Reduced emissions

5) Something new to bring to the table, which in my opinion adds the prestige point due to it being a very exclusive item.

Want a V12? Well, you will be going shopping to several manufacturers. Want a car with V12 power, fuel economy, the most advanced electronics, comfort, speed, room, and luxury? That's crazy! Nobody makes that!? Oh, but somebody does... Lexus does, not MB, BMW, Maybach, Audi, Bentley, but Lexus; this is where the exclusivity and prestige comes into play.

The first flagship, luxury-hybrid with V12 power and 6 cylinder fuel economy in the most pretigious, luxurious, technologically advanced package in the world . . .

The Lexus LS 600h.

:shades: