Well no Lexus forum would be complete with your unique style of post.
We'll see how the two cars shape up once they're seen in person because all this shift of that and end of this talk is little silly imo. Just one car from anyone isn't going to end the careers of the others in the segment, something seemingly lost here. BTW, I don't hold Lexus' lower price point against them, just don't tell me about sales volume equalling superiority when you're selling a car that is 15-20K cheaper. Of course its going to sell better!
Well the A8 didn't really get a facelift in the traditional sense, they just added the new grill to all A8 models. The V10 S8 is the newest member of the A8 family.
Oh it will keep its place as the best seller status in the U.S market, but in Europe Lexus can forget any King thinking....it is a much tougher game. Over there they are a little more serious about a new MB, BMW or Audi when they debut and other cars just don't get much attention, especially ones that aren't built there. Lexus has a long way to go before they can even begin to unseat the Germans in Europe. One new LS isn't going to do it. It takes a whole brand of exciting cars and something more than sedans/suvs to unseat companies like MB/BMW in the minds of Europeans. Now that proposed Lexus sports car will garner some real attention from Europe's enthusiasts.
Will the New Mercedes S gain, maintain, or lose US market share to the LS?
Well I since both are new and coming to the market withing months of each other I think they will both gain (the S at a lower rate due to price) at the expense of BMW, Audi and Jaguar. Or the whole segment could expand the way the middle-luxury class has this year, but I doubt that at these prices. The S will have a few months jump on the LS to market. The VW Phaeton will likely be affordable enough for me to lease one by this time next year. :P This also depends on where the S450 is priced, we already know the S500 will be a 88-90K car to start.
I can see the LS460 starting at 63-65K this time around topping out around 80K with all the options, which is right around where the S450 will be base priced. You know kinda like how the current LS430 topping out where the current S430 starts.
I can see the LS460 starting at 63-65K this time around topping out around 80K with all the options, which is right around where the S450 will be base priced. You know kinda like how the current LS430 topping out where the current S430 starts.
I can see it already... the excuses why the S would lose market share to the LS... its the pricing ! And pray tell, why is the MB S-class priced so high relative to its peers, so much so that it may be hurt by its price ???
But Lexus already have an answer for that excuse: there will be three LS models - LS460, LS500 and LS600h. The pricing would definitely rise all the way to the $90K, negating your old worn excuse that the LS is cheaply priced.... So better start thinking of another excuse right about now...
Man, you guys have been busy since my last post about 24 hours ago-about 80 posts! Yes, you are correct that it takes a lot to unseat MB and BMW in Euoupe or the world because they sell so many cars. But I don't care if that happens or does not happen. I live in the US and I have different needs and desires. I drive more in a month than most people in other parts of the world drive in a year! I need a luxurious, fast, depadable, safe, comfortable, quite, large car with a great dealership network and service. My 04 LS has endured more Gs than most S and 7 owners would even think about. The engine/transmission and handling of LS may not be the best but is good enough to be the best in everyday driving. I don't take my car to the track, nor do most other MB and BMW owners but those owners demand a higher level of performance that Lexus has not offered so far. LS handles great but leans quite a bit on turns. That is the compromise that I am willing to accept for a comfortable ride. Do I like BMW type handling yes but only with Lexus comfort on the straight, long, and congested freeways of S Cal. People I know are changing brands more and more because they are not happy with what they have. They jump from MB to BMW, from MB to Audi, from BMW to MB and some times to Lexus. Some if they do change to Lexus will never go back because once you have driven a Lexus for a while all other cars seem mechanical. It is so smooth and so nice IMO. Now with the new designs, the looks of the Lexus is having the same impact IMO, the design is so fluid that other makes just look like ordinary cars. Add to that additional performance there is even more reason to change to Lexus. But some people will not be caught dead in a Lexus or a Lexus dealer just like I would not be caught in MB dealer. That is why we have different brands so people choose what they like. Frankly, Lexus is not a perfect brand just like the other makes are not but since Lexus started in 1989, we have seen a major improvement in German cars in term of design, features, and performance. What we have also seen is that they had to keep their prices in check and because of that their quality has suffered. But hopefully they will fix that. If they do then Lexus has to make better and better cars. So you see-it is all win-win.
Amazing, you have the pricing and model information already? Due tell. What is worn is sales rants that ignore other factors, price being one of them. This end of the world crap is equally worn.
Amazing, you have the pricing and model information already? Due tell.
Going by what I've read and heard.... LS460 around 350-360HP, LS500 around 400HP, and LS600h (V12-like performance, with a V6-like fuel economy) should be >400HP total. You would not expect such a car with such features to sell for peanuts, would you ? A price right around the low to mid-80K base may be projected for the 600h, while the base 460 may start in the mid-60s... with the 500 in the low-low $70 range.
Well we'll see. I hardly see it matching the Europeans, mainly BMW and especially Mercedes in price. Lexus will still be cheaper, but according to you that is not a factor in it selling better.
Hi again, this forum really shows how the battle will be between lexus and other brands, just want to comment on what ppl are saying here, that lexus will not affect MB, they are saying that MB will sell cars no matter what lexus do, i agree u are partially right, but MB is now selling a better cars thanx to lexus that tought a company that is almost 100 yr of age how to make luxury cars, same goes to BMW. This LS will steal customers from else where, MB will cry out loud when they see their customers are at least thinking of having a look at the LS, believe me its so hard to lose a customer, and those germans will suffer it alot
Now going to the price thing, come on ppl, why do MB make a lesser car for more price tag? why do they have the CD player at a time as an option in an 80$ car!! you can not blame lexus becoz they are making a great car that has everything including things MB doesnt have with a far much better quality for less price! is this a lexus mistake or MB mistake, i say, at least MB, build near lexus quality car, lol.
Yes its a matter of taste, ppl should be different in that, iam ok with it, but when it comes to fact, this should not affect they way u rephrase facts. you can go and buy the "new" S class, or 7 series or Audi, but u at least have to admit that lexus is building the best cars,
One point that is kind of funny, what about with that handling thing, hmm are we buying cars to race with? lol, thats really funny, becoz u can not notice a huge difference in this unless u r flying with the car, what i means, who cares about that minimal difference in handling, i say, u better have a nice, comfortable car, that u can cruise the hightway, becoz believe me u wont even see the difference in handling that much, but a good news for those who likes how it should handle, the IS350 is amazing in this, the GS also, lexus is balancing the suspen really well now.
silly point, what with the new ES? i heard that this gonna be the new ES becoz its kind of small to be the new LS!! are u out of ur mind! LOL, this is surely the new LS, look at the so called SPEC in the japanese website, the car is even bigger than the current LS, open ur eyes and ur MIND!
LAST thing, iam kind of disappointed here, Mr. Kiyonaga said things that arent good, including that grill thing, we really want to see this grill on all LS' its so nice and breath taking, of course iam not expectin 20' wheels but at least make it optional, this would be awesom. and guys what with the LS460, LS500, and LS600h! why all this engine variants? i dont get it, do either 460 or 500, why both?
I can not wait for the spec and interior of the car, Kiyonaga didnt mention anything about how the interior will be, plz not the BMW style, i hate it, hate it, its sense-less. anyway, its in 22nd this month, so we wont be waiting alot i hope.
Hi all I just going now left you with a short video where I am sort of doing a small interview with a Toyota official (actually this is one of many of my old colleagues who still work at Toyota). Due to the nature that we both aren’t very good English speakers, the interview therefore the interview format would be all in Japanese and I was hoping that someone in the forum who knows Japanese well enough to translate it with English since I wasn’t sure I would have too much time to translate all the contents in the video into English. Nevertheless, I was planning to present this video to all of you by posting a weblink to my personal webpage so you can view them yourself. However one of the Japanese automotive website have offer me 350000 yen to post my video onto their website, so the video is now in their hands now and you can view it on this weblink http://www.carview.co.jp/tms/2005/movie/okazaki_lexus/default.asp. Enjoy this rare video oppanunity and I will update my post as soon as I can find a couple of free hours where I can sit down and writing my post. So please be patient!
Look this link aren't working well...Okay here's another link for you to try it...hope it would work http://www.carview.co.jp/tms/2005/movie_list.asp and click on the video with that shows a pic on the LS T. Kiyonaga
The reason why Lexus is selling more than the Europeans is not because it's a few $$$ cheaper. It's because it's a better car overall. Name Luxury nameplates that are cheaper than the Germans, like 6-10 maybe? So, price is defintely not the primary reason. I agree with M that it takes the entire lineup to gain prestige status in the World but Lexus still has the potential to become one, 7-10 years down the road if they keep on building cars the way they do on this new LS. Once Lexus lineups start to appear in movies then maybe it could be the beginning of a mighty brand.
Thats a great clip, but we really need the subtitle here, anyone?? plz translate it and post the link, Kiyonaga U R A LUCKY GUY thanx for sharing this with us, waiting for more information, concerning the spec of the car and the new tech in it.
The LS will expand it's domain into S500 territory.
Between hybrid technology, improved styling, and improved performance, the LS will match or exceed anything Mercedes chooses to field in the near future.
I love the three light design. But I have not been able to locate a front turn signals on it. So that leads me to believe the light design will change. I am guesing the three lights are for different ranges. The current LS does not have a good range on the low beam and Lexus has been defending it by saying if it projected further it would bother the on coming traffic. So my guess is the outer light is normal low beam, the middle is a long range low beam for road driving and the inner light is the hi beam. I call it tri-xenon in opposed to bi-xenon! You are right this is another bragging right for I got more lights than you do! I hope we do not loose the killer whale look of this car (that is what I think it looks like with the LS-Fh design with this light cluster) because the light cluster is a concept design. I think they can easily add a LED strip to the side to make it even more interesting or even use the LF-X design. I hope the grill makes it to production too. It is the exact same grill design as the LF-C and LF-S. I was just looking at the LF concepts and after seeing the LS, there are a lot of similarities in design elements.
1. Is the concept the short wheelbase version? How much longer will the long wheelbase version be?
2. Will there be a 5.0 liter gas engine version?
3. Will there be hybrid versions built around 3.5 liter, 4.6 liter, 5.0 liter gas engines? Or maybe just 4.6?
4. Will the triple-headlight design be in the production car?
5. Will the car have the Bose suspension? If not, does the suspension differ from the current generation LS, and if so, how? If you're not familiar with it, see this: http://www.automobilemag.com/news/0410_bose/ ...the video clip is particularly compelling.
6. Any plans for a diesel or a diesel-electric hybrid, particularly for the European market?
7. What drivetrain/wheelbase combinations will be offered for the U.S. market, what will the price point be for each, and when will each ship?
And some other questions:
8. Has a decision been made to go ahead with an LF-A type 2-seater sports car, and when will it ship? Will it have a V10? Might the V10 make it into a LS?
9. Any plans for Lexus to make something along the lines of the Mercedes R-Class? Or generally, to make some sort of crossover based on the Sienna? (My wife drives an LX now and wants something that seats 7+ but gets better mileage.)
10. When will hybrid powertrains be offered on the GX and LX?
11. Any decision yet to go ahead with a super sedan that would compete with Bentley, etc?
12. Is it true that the next LX will be based on the Sequoia platform? When will it ship? (Sequoia platform is too big for us...will the old LX/TLC platform remain?)
13. Some hybrid skeptics question the longevity of the battery. Have you seen any data that suggests how efficient the battery will be after, say, 10 years? At what point would someone have to replace a battery?
(Just as an aside, if we don't see a 7+ passenger Lexus with better MPG than the GX/LX soon, my family may opt for a 2007 Acura MDX.)
Thank you in advance for any light you are able to shed on these issues.
A few things to clear up. First off, the residuals of the old S class is not relevant because I don't imagine most S and LS vehicles are leased, at least not that I'm aware of. Secondly, the S has a much higher starting point, and as we have seen with all higher end luxury vehicles (LS excluded b/c it's base price is only 57k), their residuals are not holding up well the last couple of years.
I'm a huge Lexus fan, and I think their vehicles are superior to MB for my driving needs. However, it is not up for argument as to which is a more prestigious brand, one has 16+ years of history, the other 100+. Therefore, strategically, MB S class has to be priced higher than the LS. Lexus would not have been successful pricing at the same level as MB when they came out, and it would not work out now either. It takes time (longer than 16 years) to command such pricing powers. Lexus fans, let's not all act like we are German executives and working for MB (remember 1989) and claim that our products are far too superior to all others!
The pricing on the new LS will stay in line with the outgoing model (base price that is). Look at Sep 2005 sales of LS (1800 units vs S class of 1,041), but you cannot make a claim that LS sells better than S b/c they compete on a huge price difference. When all is said and done, Lexus has to make up the large revenue difference on volume, while MB makes it up on price.
Lexus has had an amazing track record the past 16 years, there is no denying that. They have been successful building a better car, at a better value. Being the number one seller of luxury cars in the U.S. is not always an accomplishment. Lexus has stated their target sales for the new IS is 40,000+ units, and who knows what their target is for the new LS. Lexus already sells almost 300k units a year, can it safely increase that numbers while gaining prestige? That is the real issue, I think Lexus has to be extremely careful of this, b/c it could dilute the brand whereas MB does not have intentions of selling 300k so as to preserve the prestige because if everyone drives one, why would you pay a premium?
When you pull up to an expensive restaurant, which vehicles take center stage in the valet? I usually see MBs and BMWs even though they sell a lot less than Lexuses. However, when driving home, it's the Lexus owner who is the one smiling b/c he just saved 20% on his car.
What does that tell you? It just says that Europeans care more about name than quality. They know their cars are not as reliable than the Japanese. Even MB CEO said that. Here we drive a lot more than Europeans and we don't want our cars in shops all the time.
Well first of all, you can be assured the new S Class will be of very high quality. MB has learned. Secondly, it's not as if the current MB line up is such low quality, the old M class was the one solely responsible for the poor showing of MB in JD power studies. S class is right behind the LS on JD power IQS. The problems they've had were related to electronics, it's not as if their cars break down on the freeway.
Europeans do care about the name, that's a lame excuse for saying Lexus is relatively unheard of in Europe. 21k vehicles sold a year in all of Europe, that's about as irrelevant as you can get in the luxury market there. Yes Lexus has done well in the U.S., but that's about the only place they've nailed it. A lot of hard work lies ahead, getting Lexus to Japan was a good first step.
It doesn't matter what the problem is, engine or electronics. If there is a problem, it goes to the shop. Americans can't afford that since we depend on cars, unlike Europeans. BTW, one of my friends' brand new E class caught fire while he was driving it in HK.
Wow, that new S class design looks hideous. The old model looked nice but this one makes me want to puke. What were they thinking?
What I find funny is people who criticize the current LS design (mainly Euro car fans) will act like this new S class looks so good. I know people have their own tastes and stuff but I seriously think anyone who honestly says the new S classs looks great is mega biased. hahaha
The new LS design looks tight and anyone who actually thinks it looks like a BMW or MB is smoking something or is just simply trying to stir stuff up. I have seen people say car A looks like car B in the past were the models are way off but those comparos are NOWHERE near as crazy as anyone trying to say this new LS looks another brand's model. If they think this then I guess they think Charlize Theron looks like Rosanne Barr.
As for the whole sales thing...S class sales or 7 series class sales wont be destroyed because of this car. Lexus could make the most perfect car in the world for a price of 20 grand and people would still buy BMW & MB simply because they are brand/name buyers not product buyers. As for the low price of the LS being reason why it has sold better than the S class...um, I'd say no. The reason it has sold better is probably because it is the better overall car. People who can afford these cars can pony up the extra for the MB or BMW but choose not to because they realize they are overpriced. They realize the LS is the better package and value is a part of the package.
Oh and bringing up Euro sales I dont think matters that much because dont they use MB sedans for taxis in Europe? I'd guess the prestige of BMW and MB in Europe is far less than it is here in North America...they probably see them more as common cars like we do Fords which does not mean I am trying to say those brands are of the same quality...just merely saying I would guess they are very common there from what I have read in the past.
Then again, I dont care about sales figures in general because they dont equate to a car/product being better...it takes one look at top selling products in the world to see this.
Anyway, I eagerly await the new LS...it will dominate its segment in terms of sheer quality and package.
Hi All, Wow a busy forum!!! I think the new LS is a considerable improvement over the current one. I'm not ready to give it the "Miss Universe" title yet however. Maybe "Miss Asia-Pacific" for now. I still think the Audi takes the first prize in the styling dept followed closely by the current Mercedes S-Class. I won't be rushing to trade my 05 in for this one, but will definitely consider it. I don't think it is 1989 all over again either. The original LS had more flair to it, especially in the rear design.
I don't think anyone can improve their quality so quickly. The problems didn't begin overnight and they will not be solved overnight. These manufacturers need to stop cramming all sorts of pointless electronics into these cars. I still haven't seen the point of all this Drive by wire stuff. This isn't a F-16 for pete's sake.
We are quite convinced that a number (of customers) after looking at Lexus in showrooms will decide for BMW because we are basically...the more dynamic of the premium brands in there," he boasted.
You can't copy and paste the success (Lexus) has had in the United States 16 years later. Different markets require different solutions," said Walter Hanek, who heads Japan operations for Volkswagen's premium division Audi.
Despite its U.S. success, Lexus did little to crimp sales of Mercedes and BMW cars there, Hanek said, instead attracting customers from "weaker" brands such as the home-grown Cadillac, Lincoln and Mercury as well as European names like Saab, Volvo and Audi.
U.S. sales at Mercedes-Benz and BMW have both grown to about 200,000 units from around 80,000 when Lexus joined the fray, Hanek said.
And to think that some of my posts were defending these arrogant SOBs...let 'em have it Lexus....
Hi, Considering what this excus said, this is kind of funny, becoz 16 years back, when lexus was first introduced to U.S, the same thing happened and i remember, BM excutive said that lexus wont change anything, or did he said what is LEXUS? is it something lawers use (that the tru thing, becoz lexus is the abberv of a code used by lawers) anyhow he did say that, he said those japanese can not make luxury cars, but now what iam seeing is that Japanses are teaching germans how to make a luxury car, in a tough way.
lexus japan's sales will raise, will raise more than this excut said, they are simply try to keep their face by saying such things. yah its tru BM, and MB sales increased in U.S despite lexus presence, but wont those sales were hugely different if lexus wasnt there? i say, lexus dominated U.S and now its time to dominate the globe. I dont care how many car do they sell, but believe me those lexus' will be pointed on and ppl will see this is the best car in the world. this excutive reminds me of a balloon that is reaching the over inflation era, and soon it will BOOM, exploid :P
Sorry MB, but ur S class is ugly bugly compared to the LS, and plz dont let me start with the interior, i have one Q for MB engineers, what were u thinking with that interior! dont u get what bangle did to BM.
concering the SPEC of the new LS, we r waiting, but we wont be disappointed.
Yawn! We've been over this time and time again and no one is saying otherwise, but if you get a kick out of repeating it knock yourself out. Secondly this is the wrong forum for a debate, this is about the new LS. The other board is where the debate should continue.
By a few years do you mean the past 15 years. I have been a strong MB fan since the inception of the E-Class and the beginning of the design re-birth at MB. Amazing how the fans of the eurpean makes can slam Lexus for boring style and lack of character. Yes Lexus has been ultra conservative in styling for the past 15 years. Yes the out going S class is a thing of beauty, timeless and classic. But do you not remember the ugly luxo box that preceded the current out going S class? The CLS and the SL are by far some of the most beautiful cars in modern day to hit the road. MB quality is not going to fix itself over night. Don't try and blame the quality perception of MB on the US built M class, when quality has been lacking across the entire line up. MB is trying to make too many different types of cars. With DaimlerChrysler boss Jurgen Schrempp leaving and Dieter Zetsche taking his place, expect MB to get serious about the threat from Japan. Zetsche is responsible for Chrysler's profitable turnaround and great sellers like the new 300. Just don't claim that quality problems with the new S are a thing of the past as I won't claim that the new LS will be the new Luxo king of the hill.
Heh, if they are that outright arrogant in the public eye, I wonder just how conceited they are about their problems behind closed doors.
Ze pried ov ze Dzermanz iz too overvelming for zem to change zer cheap veys.
If I were them I would be saying, "Oh no! Ze Japaneze are kumming! Vee betta try kharda ziz tiem arund! Letz redo ze S-CLASSEN (again)!"
What have they done to such a nice looking car (Exterior of the current S-Class was very nice, however I think the interior kind of sucked; that is my opinion) is overwhelming. The new S looks like its wearing an uncoordinated slab of body-armour. I get the impression that it is quite narrow, like the look of an oversized sneaker.
I am not a fan of MB interiors, though. The current interiors on the new GS, SC, IS are what I would design if I could make an interior on a car minus the lack of tones in the leather (Let's all go to the dealerships and tell the Lexus reps that new colours need to be added. If there is enough request then they just might do something!).
Lovin the look of the new LS; muscular, sporty, elegant and sleek. The V10 from the LF-A would do great in there... it is music to my ears.
"your dire predictions of the same thing back in 2001 when the current LS came out. You said the same thing back in 2001 and the sky didn't fall then because of new LS and isn't going to fall now."
I never predicted the sky would fall in on the S-class in 2001/2002. I predicted the sky would fall in on MB - and it has. But now I think the sky may fall in on the S holding up it's high MSRP here in the US for the reasons I noted last night. The S-class is the most important car in the MB line-up. I can already hear a thousand people saying it's the E but it's the S's success and price sustainability that determines what the E can fetch in price and it's the E that is the bread and butter money maker for MB. So you have some real serious trickle down effects that are possible here. I'd be concerned - it's that simple.
Are you from outerspace? Who drives more per year? Who own more vehicles per household? I lived in Europe before and I have relatives there. We don't need to own cars there. But I can't live without cars in America. In Europe, car is luxury item. In American, car is an neccessity. Now you tell me who depends on cars more, Americans or Europeans?
Maybe the new S will be successful, but that Maybach-like style isn't, IMO, better than the exterior skin it is replacing. The current S-class style is a classic. Real sleek and gorgeous. To change it to a Maybach, is downright sad. The rear fender flares, and the arches just don't give it the look of a grand luxury marque. If the new LS comes out with that sleek, muscular, sporty, and luxurious exterior with an interior to match, then the S will have a real serious problem in the f/s lux sedan market here in NA. Notice how a brand spanking new e90 is already under significant discount. How the mighty have fallen.... I will go out on a limb and predict that the new S500/550 will not sustain a $90K retail price. Rather it will be priced closer to the higher end LS-600h, whatever that price comes out to be. Just my prediction...
So you think they will adjust the price downward???If they do they may do it by adding alot of the options as standard....From what I have read their seat may be the most comfortable seat imaginable, and that for me would be a big inducement, along with the standard options....Tony
The new LS looks like it will be georgeous (Can't wait to see the interior!!). (If the "base" gets AWD, it will definitely be in our garage next fall!!).
The new S seems to me a rehash of the old one (in my humble opinion).....(although haven't seen yet in person, maybe will look better...).
We really needed you strategically placed in Tokyo right now - lol.
Absolutely !!!! Its killing me that I swapped jobs at the most inopportune time Not to worry I just need to contact my former colleagues in the Tokyo office for some info. For me, I am heading out to the UK next week. Maybe those in Europe may know more than we do here in NA ??
Europe roads I've been on seem to get the same tie-ups we get here. Europe, to me is no different then here at all. You can get by on one car if you live and work within the confines of a city with mass transportation (there or here). But if you live in the burbs you almost always need two cars in a married family with or without children. When the kids get big enough it can grow to three or four.
I think we need a reward for the first person to get us pix of the inside of this beautiful car!! Shouldn't Lexus be coming forward with some more news now that the real consumer portion of the show is about to start? We can't possibly have this car on display for 10 days and not see what it looks like inside, or have better technological data and more details about the different wheelbases and their related standard equipment.
Cmon', where do you think those fender flares and the character line came from on the S-Class. It is so funny, because this dawned on me just as I was driving and saw a Focus. The momment I saw it, it ocurred like a revelation.
Notice that both cars have grotesque fender flares and both have a character line that goes from front fender to above the rear fender "flare".
VS.
Sorry everybody. I just couldn't resist with all this "even the new LS looks like such and such other 'high-end' car" talk. Meanwhile, ze Zderman'z S looks like an 'entry-level' Ford to me.
PS: Shock number 2 - Even the design of the greenhouse is similar!
Only in your world has the sky fallen. You seem to be content on judging Mercedes on their sedans only, particularly the S-Class. The S is the most important as far as prestige goes in their 4-door models, but the E is their bread and butter. This I should be concerned tone has been given since 2001 and nothing has happened yet on the level of which you constantly predict. All this mumbo jumbo about MSRP and what not just talk and nothing more at this point. I really thought you had a point a while back but I see its nothing more than hype on the same level as the above. You see a likeness to a Ford Taurus in the current S-Class but you see no such likeness between the previous Avalon and the current LS430. That alone tells me that your outlook is colored. Mercedes isn't just one sedan or two sedans, they have a whole range of cars in case you didn't notice.
Comments
We'll see how the two cars shape up once they're seen in person because all this shift of that and end of this talk is little silly imo. Just one car from anyone isn't going to end the careers of the others in the segment, something seemingly lost here. BTW, I don't hold Lexus' lower price point against them, just don't tell me about sales volume equalling superiority when you're selling a car that is 15-20K cheaper. Of course its going to sell better!
Well the A8 didn't really get a facelift in the traditional sense, they just added the new grill to all A8 models. The V10 S8 is the newest member of the A8 family.
M
M
DrFill
Well I since both are new and coming to the market withing months of each other I think they will both gain (the S at a lower rate due to price) at the expense of BMW, Audi and Jaguar. Or the whole segment could expand the way the middle-luxury class has this year, but I doubt that at these prices. The S will have a few months jump on the LS to market. The VW Phaeton will likely be affordable enough for me to lease one by this time next year. :P This also depends on where the S450 is priced, we already know the S500 will be a 88-90K car to start.
I can see the LS460 starting at 63-65K this time around topping out around 80K with all the options, which is right around where the S450 will be base priced. You know kinda like how the current LS430 topping out where the current S430 starts.
M
I can see it already... the excuses why the S would lose market share to the LS... its the pricing ! And pray tell, why is the MB S-class priced so high relative to its peers, so much so that it may be hurt by its price ???
But Lexus already have an answer for that excuse: there will be three LS models - LS460, LS500 and LS600h. The pricing would definitely rise all the way to the $90K, negating your old worn excuse that the LS is cheaply priced.... So better start thinking of another excuse right about now...
The Lexus brand is the top selling luxury brand in the NA market. Of course, the LS is the top selling full-size luxury sedan in the NA market....
but shush, we don't want that to be public info !!!
btw, congrats on joining the Lex family.
M
Going by what I've read and heard.... LS460 around 350-360HP, LS500 around 400HP, and LS600h (V12-like performance, with a V6-like fuel economy) should be >400HP total. You would not expect such a car with such features to sell for peanuts, would you ? A price right around the low to mid-80K base may be projected for the 600h, while the base 460 may start in the mid-60s... with the 500 in the low-low $70 range.
M
Now going to the price thing, come on ppl, why do MB make a lesser car for more price tag? why do they have the CD player at a time as an option in an 80$ car!! you can not blame lexus becoz they are making a great car that has everything including things MB doesnt have with a far much better quality for less price! is this a lexus mistake or MB mistake, i say, at least MB, build near lexus quality car, lol.
Yes its a matter of taste, ppl should be different in that, iam ok with it, but when it comes to fact, this should not affect they way u rephrase facts. you can go and buy the "new" S class, or 7 series or Audi, but u at least have to admit that lexus is building the best cars,
One point that is kind of funny, what about with that handling thing, hmm are we buying cars to race with? lol, thats really funny, becoz u can not notice a huge difference in this unless u r flying with the car, what i means, who cares about that minimal difference in handling, i say, u better have a nice, comfortable car, that u can cruise the hightway, becoz believe me u wont even see the difference in handling that much, but a good news for those who likes how it should handle, the IS350 is amazing in this, the GS also, lexus is balancing the suspen really well now.
silly point, what with the new ES? i heard that this gonna be the new ES becoz its kind of small to be the new LS!! are u out of ur mind! LOL, this is surely the new LS, look at the so called SPEC in the japanese website, the car is even bigger than the current LS, open ur eyes and ur MIND!
LAST thing, iam kind of disappointed here, Mr. Kiyonaga said things that arent good, including that grill thing, we really want to see this grill on all LS' its so nice and breath taking, of course iam not expectin 20' wheels but at least make it optional, this would be awesom. and guys what with the LS460, LS500, and LS600h! why all this engine variants? i dont get it, do either 460 or 500, why both?
I can not wait for the spec and interior of the car, Kiyonaga didnt mention anything about how the interior will be, plz not the BMW style, i hate it, hate it, its sense-less. anyway, its in 22nd this month, so we wont be waiting alot i hope.
Lexusi
I just going now left you with a short video where I am sort of doing a small interview with a Toyota official (actually this is one of many of my old colleagues who still work at Toyota). Due to the nature that we both aren’t very good English speakers, the interview therefore the interview format would be all in Japanese and I was hoping that someone in the forum who knows Japanese well enough to translate it with English since I wasn’t sure I would have too much time to translate all the contents in the video into English. Nevertheless, I was planning to present this video to all of you by posting a weblink to my personal webpage so you can view them yourself. However one of the Japanese automotive website have offer me 350000 yen to post my video onto their website, so the video is now in their hands now and you can view it on this weblink http://www.carview.co.jp/tms/2005/movie/okazaki_lexus/default.asp. Enjoy this rare video oppanunity and I will update my post as soon as I can find a couple of free hours where I can sit down and writing my post. So please be patient!
T. Kiyonaga
T. Kiyonaga
Lexusi
Between hybrid technology, improved styling, and improved performance, the LS will match or exceed anything Mercedes chooses to field in the near future.
This will fail to become a factor in the future.
DrFill
I am guesing the three lights are for different ranges. The current LS does not have a good range on the low beam and Lexus has been defending it by saying if it projected further it would bother the on coming traffic. So my guess is the outer light is normal low beam, the middle is a long range low beam for road driving and the inner light is the hi beam. I call it tri-xenon in opposed to bi-xenon! You are right this is another bragging right for I got more lights than you do! I hope we do not loose the killer whale look of this car (that is what I think it looks like with the LS-Fh design with this light cluster) because the light cluster is a concept design. I think they can easily add a LED strip to the side to make it even more interesting or even use the LF-X design.
I hope the grill makes it to production too. It is the exact same grill design as the LF-C and LF-S. I was just looking at the LF concepts and after seeing the LS, there are a lot of similarities in design elements.
1. Is the concept the short wheelbase version? How much longer will the long wheelbase version be?
2. Will there be a 5.0 liter gas engine version?
3. Will there be hybrid versions built around 3.5 liter, 4.6 liter, 5.0 liter gas engines? Or maybe just 4.6?
4. Will the triple-headlight design be in the production car?
5. Will the car have the Bose suspension? If not, does the suspension differ from the current generation LS, and if so, how? If you're not familiar with it, see this:
http://www.automobilemag.com/news/0410_bose/
...the video clip is particularly compelling.
6. Any plans for a diesel or a diesel-electric hybrid, particularly for the European market?
7. What drivetrain/wheelbase combinations will be offered for the U.S. market, what will the price point be for each, and when will each ship?
And some other questions:
8. Has a decision been made to go ahead with an LF-A type 2-seater sports car, and when will it ship? Will it have a V10? Might the V10 make it into a LS?
9. Any plans for Lexus to make something along the lines of the Mercedes R-Class? Or generally, to make some sort of crossover based on the Sienna? (My wife drives an LX now and wants something that seats 7+ but gets better mileage.)
10. When will hybrid powertrains be offered on the GX and LX?
11. Any decision yet to go ahead with a super sedan that would compete with Bentley, etc?
12. Is it true that the next LX will be based on the Sequoia platform? When will it ship? (Sequoia platform is too big for us...will the old LX/TLC platform remain?)
13. Some hybrid skeptics question the longevity of the battery. Have you seen any data that suggests how efficient the battery will be after, say, 10 years? At what point would someone have to replace a battery?
(Just as an aside, if we don't see a 7+ passenger Lexus with better MPG than the GX/LX soon, my family may opt for a 2007 Acura MDX.)
Thank you in advance for any light you are able to shed on these issues.
I'm a huge Lexus fan, and I think their vehicles are superior to MB for my driving needs. However, it is not up for argument as to which is a more prestigious brand, one has 16+ years of history, the other 100+. Therefore, strategically, MB S class has to be priced higher than the LS. Lexus would not have been successful pricing at the same level as MB when they came out, and it would not work out now either. It takes time (longer than 16 years) to command such pricing powers. Lexus fans, let's not all act like we are German executives and working for MB (remember 1989) and claim that our products are far too superior to all others!
The pricing on the new LS will stay in line with the outgoing model (base price that is). Look at Sep 2005 sales of LS (1800 units vs S class of 1,041), but you cannot make a claim that LS sells better than S b/c they compete on a huge price difference. When all is said and done, Lexus has to make up the large revenue difference on volume, while MB makes it up on price.
Lexus has had an amazing track record the past 16 years, there is no denying that. They have been successful building a better car, at a better value. Being the number one seller of luxury cars in the U.S. is not always an accomplishment. Lexus has stated their target sales for the new IS is 40,000+ units, and who knows what their target is for the new LS. Lexus already sells almost 300k units a year, can it safely increase that numbers while gaining prestige? That is the real issue, I think Lexus has to be extremely careful of this, b/c it could dilute the brand whereas MB does not have intentions of selling 300k so as to preserve the prestige because if everyone drives one, why would you pay a premium?
When you pull up to an expensive restaurant, which vehicles take center stage in the valet? I usually see MBs and BMWs even though they sell a lot less than Lexuses. However, when driving home, it's the Lexus owner who is the one smiling b/c he just saved 20% on his car.
Europeans do care about the name, that's a lame excuse for saying Lexus is relatively unheard of in Europe. 21k vehicles sold a year in all of Europe, that's about as irrelevant as you can get in the luxury market there. Yes Lexus has done well in the U.S., but that's about the only place they've nailed it. A lot of hard work lies ahead, getting Lexus to Japan was a good first step.
BTW, one of my friends' brand new E class caught fire while he was driving it in HK.
What I find funny is people who criticize the current LS design (mainly Euro car fans) will act like this new S class looks so good. I know people have their own tastes and stuff but I seriously think anyone who honestly says the new S classs looks great is mega biased. hahaha
The new LS design looks tight and anyone who actually thinks it looks like a BMW or MB is smoking something or is just simply trying to stir stuff up. I have seen people say car A looks like car B in the past were the models are way off but those comparos are NOWHERE near as crazy as anyone trying to say this new LS looks another brand's model. If they think this then I guess they think Charlize Theron looks like Rosanne Barr.
As for the whole sales thing...S class sales or 7 series class sales wont be destroyed because of this car. Lexus could make the most perfect car in the world for a price of 20 grand and people would still buy BMW & MB simply because they are brand/name buyers not product buyers. As for the low price of the LS being reason why it has sold better than the S class...um, I'd say no. The reason it has sold better is probably because it is the better overall car. People who can afford these cars can pony up the extra for the MB or BMW but choose not to because they realize they are overpriced. They realize the LS is the better package and value is a part of the package.
Oh and bringing up Euro sales I dont think matters that much because dont they use MB sedans for taxis in Europe? I'd guess the prestige of BMW and MB in Europe is far less than it is here in North America...they probably see them more as common cars like we do Fords which does not mean I am trying to say those brands are of the same quality...just merely saying I would guess they are very common there from what I have read in the past.
Then again, I dont care about sales figures in general because they dont equate to a car/product being better...it takes one look at top selling products in the world to see this.
Anyway, I eagerly await the new LS...it will dominate its segment in terms of sheer quality and package.
Wow a busy forum!!! I think the new LS is a considerable improvement over the current one. I'm not ready to give it the "Miss Universe" title yet however. Maybe "Miss Asia-Pacific" for now. I still think the Audi takes the first prize in the styling dept followed closely by the current Mercedes S-Class. I won't be rushing to trade my 05 in for this one, but will definitely consider it. I don't think it is 1989 all over again either. The original LS had more flair to it, especially in the rear design.
I don't think anyone can improve their quality so quickly. The problems didn't begin overnight and they will not be solved overnight. These manufacturers need to stop cramming all sorts of pointless electronics into these cars. I still haven't seen the point of all this Drive by wire stuff. This isn't a F-16 for pete's sake.
SV
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=motoringSummary&storyID=2005-10-20T0- 73621Z_01_NOA027372_RTRUKOC_0_AUTOS-JAPAN-LEXUS.xml
We are quite convinced that a number (of customers) after looking at Lexus in showrooms will decide for BMW because we are basically...the more dynamic of the premium brands in there," he boasted.
You can't copy and paste the success (Lexus) has had in the United States 16 years later. Different markets require different solutions," said Walter Hanek, who heads Japan operations for Volkswagen's premium division Audi.
Despite its U.S. success, Lexus did little to crimp sales of Mercedes and BMW cars there, Hanek said, instead attracting customers from "weaker" brands such as the home-grown Cadillac, Lincoln and Mercury as well as European names like Saab, Volvo and Audi.
U.S. sales at Mercedes-Benz and BMW have both grown to about 200,000 units from around 80,000 when Lexus joined the fray, Hanek said.
And to think that some of my posts were defending these arrogant SOBs...let 'em have it Lexus....
Considering what this excus said, this is kind of funny, becoz 16 years back, when lexus was first introduced to U.S, the same thing happened and i remember, BM excutive said that lexus wont change anything, or did he said what is LEXUS? is it something lawers use (that the tru thing, becoz lexus is the abberv of a code used by lawers) anyhow he did say that, he said those japanese can not make luxury cars, but now what iam seeing is that Japanses are teaching germans how to make a luxury car, in a tough way.
lexus japan's sales will raise, will raise more than this excut said, they are simply try to keep their face by saying such things. yah its tru BM, and MB sales increased in U.S despite lexus presence, but wont those sales were hugely different if lexus wasnt there? i say, lexus dominated U.S and now its time to dominate the globe. I dont care how many car do they sell, but believe me those lexus' will be pointed on and ppl will see this is the best car in the world.
this excutive reminds me of a balloon that is reaching the over inflation era, and soon it will BOOM, exploid :P
Sorry MB, but ur S class is ugly bugly compared to the LS, and plz dont let me start with the interior, i have one Q for MB engineers, what were u thinking with that interior! dont u get what bangle did to BM.
concering the SPEC of the new LS, we r waiting, but we wont be disappointed.
Lexusi
M
www.mercedes-benz-usa.com
Ze pried ov ze Dzermanz iz too overvelming for zem to change zer cheap veys.
If I were them I would be saying, "Oh no! Ze Japaneze are kumming! Vee betta try kharda ziz tiem arund! Letz redo ze S-CLASSEN (again)!"
What have they done to such a nice looking car (Exterior of the current S-Class was very nice, however I think the interior kind of sucked; that is my opinion) is overwhelming. The new S looks like its wearing an uncoordinated slab of body-armour. I get the impression that it is quite narrow, like the look of an oversized sneaker.
I am not a fan of MB interiors, though. The current interiors on the new GS, SC, IS are what I would design if I could make an interior on a car minus the lack of tones in the leather (Let's all go to the dealerships and tell the Lexus reps that new colours need to be added. If there is enough request then they just might do something!).
Lovin the look of the new LS; muscular, sporty, elegant and sleek. The V10 from the LF-A would do great in there... it is music to my ears.
Take this BMW and M-B!
I now have reason to save money.
15. New safety and ergonomic features for the LS?
16. 7 or 8 speed or CVT transmission?
17. Please describe improvements in the hybrid system as compared to the system deployed in the RX400h.
Thanks again.
I never predicted the sky would fall in on the S-class in 2001/2002. I predicted the sky would fall in on MB - and it has. But now I think the sky may fall in on the S holding up it's high MSRP here in the US for the reasons I noted last night. The S-class is the most important car in the MB line-up. I can already hear a thousand people saying it's the E but it's the S's success and price sustainability that determines what the E can fetch in price and it's the E that is the bread and butter money maker for MB. So you have some real serious trickle down effects that are possible here. I'd be concerned - it's that simple.
The new LS looks like it will be georgeous (Can't wait to see the interior!!). (If the "base" gets AWD, it will definitely be in our garage next fall!!).
The new S seems to me a rehash of the old one (in my humble opinion).....(although haven't seen yet in person, maybe will look better...).
Regards,
Mikeroch.
Absolutely !!!! Its killing me that I swapped jobs at the most inopportune time
Cmon', where do you think those fender flares and the character line came from on the S-Class. It is so funny, because this dawned on me just as I was driving and saw a Focus. The momment I saw it, it ocurred like a revelation.
Notice that both cars have grotesque fender flares and both have a character line that goes from front fender to above the rear fender "flare".
VS.
Sorry everybody. I just couldn't resist with all this "even the new LS looks like such and such other 'high-end' car" talk. Meanwhile, ze Zderman'z S looks like an 'entry-level' Ford to me.
PS: Shock number 2 - Even the design of the greenhouse is similar!
I bet they (MB) hoped we wouldn't notice this.
:shades:
. . . Good time not to be an MB fan. . .
http://www.edmunds.com/used/2000/ford/taurus/909/photogallery.html?pg_type=Sedan&imgsrc=%2- Fpictures%2FVEHICLE%2F2000%2FFord%2F5894%2F003917-T.jpg
M