Talking about more info on the new LS, does anyone notice how much interest the new LS is garnering on Edmund's than, say the new S-class ??? There are >1000 posts on this topic, vs less than 100 on the S. Hmmmmmmm..... Not a good sign of interest in the latter...
I think the notion of a V12 lux car lacks sense in the hybrid age that's coming. Toyota already has a V12 in its lineup in Japan and it's possible it will find it's way to an LS. But more powerful hybrid battery power will render the V12 passe in the near future. If you're Lexus you shouldn't want to chase the past in the V12 when you're leading the future with hybrids.
Cyclone - V12 like power is not about the larger market. It's about the smaller market and it's a cost of doing business. Forget logic as it doesn't apply. What that type of power is about is a car that can set itself apart for people that want to be set apart. Lexus needs to build it at some point because a brand that wants the high cache lux name needs to build a car for those people that want to be set apart. Otherwise you sit and watch others get that press instead of you. It's a small investment to make - especially for a giant like Toyota - for a larger halo effect prize on a brand that will shortly get a lot of global press. You don't need a Maybach or a Rolls but you need an S600 fighter or maybe better something that's a few steps higher.
I always respect your opinion and I greatly appreciate your insight on these vehicles ljflx. I do see your point here about "others get the press instead of you". But my goodness, I am thinking that we have reached the point where these people that want to be set apart with "rocket power here on the earth's surface" are a rapidly dying breed. Oh well, I will leave to Toyota/Lexus to make the right decisions. I am just hoping (maybe it's against hope) that Lexus has a hybrid version of the LS460 or LS 500. That would be awesome in my opinion.
All of you, Guys enogh with this engine thing, i dont care about the engine LS will have, i care about the GIZMO it will have, the new things, technologies, thats we should care about,
the Current LS matches the 750 engine and S500, we expect more with the 4.6 or 5.0 and that difference will be more than enough,
we need more luxury features, like the GS450h thing i mentioned up, thats what we need, plz stop all this fuzz about the engine, and search to look for new lexus techn
Thanks Cyclone. BTW - I have no interest in a car that is 500-600HP. But a 450HP hybrid I'd give serious consideration to - more so for the higher lux features that will be in it than the power. A 400HP hybrid that gets excelent mileage is sufficient and will be a much ballyhoed car and you can bet it'll get on Newsweek and/or Times cover.
Don't pay attention then. I am with maxellman. Some are interested in discussing this topic.
On a side-note, there is no information on the specifics of technologies and, if there are, please enlighten us.
Then, and only then, will we stop speculating about the engines, as this is the only info we have.
Go ahead, buy ear muffs (or turn off you monitor), because I don't think anybody will stop talking about it until we either get tired of it or there is some new info on the LS!
Any tech that finds it's way into the GS will be available in the LS and probably standard on the 600H. I think we tend to speculate more on engines than technology because it's more guessable. But you raise a good point. Until we hear more about the features and tech on this car we should start speculating on technology as well. What happened to kiyonaga? I was hoping he'd have some data points for us by now.
"I don't at all care to have a "gazzillion" horsepower that goes from zero to 60 in "3 seconds". I would be more than happy to have a smaller engine that gets terrific gas mileage with the very latest technogical marvels. My current 2004 LS430 has enough acceleration for my taste."
I totally agree - my 430 is plenty powerful in all of my needed applications. Gas is going up, folks - and it's not going to be $1.50 ever again - so why the horsepower race? Getting my LS to get me 20 mpg in town, would be a much better idea, so that I don't have to drive a dang Prius someday. I want to keep my luxury sedan, nice and big, but efficient.
I hope Toyota doesn't get GM like since they are now getting so big, and lose touch with the needs of their market..... Big Company Disease (BCD) is an evil thing that destroys great companies.......
"There may be a stigma that there should be no V6 in a flagship car that may negate the halo image created by the LS 600h AWD."
I'm not sure there is a stigma - but I certainly have an issue with a V-6 in my luxo-cruiser. For example, I would not consider the Cadillac CTS with the 6 in it. It's blown, so it's fast, but not smooth enough or balanced enough for luxury feel - I have no interest in it. Lincoln has put V-6s in their LS and their Continentals of the past, and they sell them, but I don't like them, and if I were Bill Ford, no Lincoln would ever have anything other than a throaty V-8 in it. It would be part of the brand image, same for Cadillac.
Lexus, Bimmer & MB however, make cars from soup to nuts, so they are going to have some 6s in them, but I won't buy one. If I want a 6, I'll buy the Avalon, and save the extra trunkload of cash.
Guys, I didnt mean u should stop speaking about the engines and so, but we need to thing about new staff lexus promised to implment in their new LS, thats what i meant, and thanx ljflx for supporting this. I know its hard to guess, but at least, we need opinions about the headlights, any word that those will make to the production model? I mentioned the pre-crash system. what do u think about it?
Then 2nd point, that clip Kiyonaga-san had it, did anyone translate it? anyone knows Japanese here? a friend? we need to know what they talked about? they surely mentioned mercedes but what did they said.
And about all this BMW talk, the threat from lexus as they say, how do u think lexus will do and what do lexus needs (new tech) to overcome all those?
"One more ting. I don't want Big Brother warning me if I look the wrong way, or if I hit a road reflector, or if I have gas, or if the light turned green.
If you're gonna be a bad driver, be a bad driver. If you are an aggressive driver (like me), fine. I don't want constant backtalk and arguing from my car.
How many wives do I need?"
ONCE AGAIN, I agree with Dr. Fill! Absolutely correct, Dr, (and absolutely frightening that we agree!) :surprise:
There are so many messages that I just don't have time to read them anymore. I remember back a while ago looking day after day for new information, and now I'm trying to weed through the bantering on engines and such and waiting for HARD information. What happened to the information we were supposed to receive with the media opening of the tokyo show? Has it not opened? Is the media not interested? I scanned the New York Times today and found nothing. Whats going on?
Also, can we try to keep messages away from the discussion of S class vs. Lexus... we all have our preferences, and obviously most of us prefer the LS or we wouldn't be here.
AHH lexus... thoust irritate me so. Give us the info!
" I know its hard to guess, but at least, we need opinions about the headlights, any word that those will make to the production model? I mentioned the pre-crash system. what do u think about it?"
About those headlights... I love them. Someone had mentioned on another forum that he heard from Lexus that the 3 beam LED lights would only make it into production form of the LS 600h and same goes for the grille. The non-HSD LS's will get a toned down grille and conventional projector headlights.
On the pre-crash system... good idea. Despite the opposition, I think that on long highway drives, which is expected from the LS, being a big cruiser, this will help a lot of people avoid senseless accidents. This is a good thing. Cmon guys, don't let typical male arrogance get in the way of saving your freakin' life!
Auto Week says the new LS460 will have a newly engineered V8 so no V10 The LS600h will have the power of a V12. Another AW article puts the power of RWD GS450 at 340 which is 33 more than the 3.5L V6. That is 16.5 per wheel. LS600h will be AWD so that's another 66 HP on top of the 4.6L. So for the LS600h to go over 400HP, it just needs 334HP for the V8 which will probably be in my opinion between 340 and 380. Putting the HP range for the 600 at 406-446HP.
Hmm... very interesting. With the GS 450h said to have "the power of a V8" and getting 340 HP (which I like very much the idea of) then I would take a stab at it and say that the LS 460 will get 360 HP. Couple the 4.6 L with 4 electric motors and you have 430 HP.
Lexus is already the top-selling luxury car in the US, and now the Japanese carmaker is aiming for world domination when its new LS goes on sale late in 2006 to rival the S-Class and 7 Series.
At the Tokyo Motor Show Lexus unveiled its Flagship Sedan Concept Car, or the LF-Sh, and this prototype's design is pretty close to that of the production model.
The striking LF-Sh is a showcase of the new Lexus design direction and also shares its styling cues with the new IS.
But the best feature of this concept hides under its bonnet where a 5-litre V8 hybrid engine lurks.
No info is yet available about this unit's performance figures but insiders say that it is a match for the V8s on offer from Mercedes and BMW.
This engine is heading for the production model, which will also come with a normal 4.6-litre V8 engine.
"The LF-Sh concept gives a peek at the redesigned LS 460 production car, due next spring.... ...Okamoto, who was closely involved in engineering the first- and second-generation LS sedans, compared the sharpness of the concept car's surface to a Japanese sword.
"It is not at all like any other car," he said. "The flagship's driving performance, compared to the (Mercedes) S class or (BMW) 7 series, can excel over these other makes. The generation to come will have the same impact and shock as the first generation LS 400."
Okamoto said the sedan is an important step to move Lexus from a luxury brand to a prestige brand."
So, does anyone know yet whether or not there will be a hybrid version of the LS460? I sure hope so, since as I have posted on several occasions, I am not interested in purchasing an LS600h with a "gazillion" horsepower. Why not make the 460 a hybrid as well with all the technological marvels that gets at least 30-35 mpg in the city and at least in the upper 20s on the highway. In my opinion, this is what Lexus should be striving for. It would seem to me that those that want the mucho horsepower can go for the LS600h but it would not get as good a gas mileage.
So, does anyone know yet whether or not there will be a hybrid version of the LS460? I sure hope so, since as I have posted on several occasions, I am not interested in purchasing an LS600h with a "gazillion" horsepower.
Reading between the lines on the news we are getting, it will appear that only ONE trim would get the hybrid - the LS600h. Standard on this trim is AWD, while the LS460 will have AWD option. It will also appear that there would only be two trims - LS460 (4.6L V8) and LS600h (5.0L V8-h). Maybe both will get a SWB/LWB variants, I dunno... But the news is slowly but surely getting out in trickle... thanks mostly to Mike.
Wrong. The speculation is on every automotive site ... this forum did not "create" it.
It's basically guaranteed that the new LS will have a hybrid V8 option.
The new 4.6L V8 by itself will not be too far from the 400HP mark.
The GS450h has been confirmed to have about 340HP. This puts the GS460 and LS460 somewhere around the 350 - 360HP range.
The RX400h's electric motors add around 60HP, and untold amounts of torque to the regular gas engine. This is also keeping in mind the 3.3L V6 in the RX400h is detuned to just a little over 200HP.
Logically the LS600h, or whatever it's name will be, will most likely have over 400HP total output, not to mention a godly amount of torque. The 4.6L V8 will probably be detuned a bit to seamlessly be integrated with the electric motors.
Actually, in terms of handling, hybrids have proven to be pretty good. Take the Highlander hybrid and the RX400h ... both are faster, and also handle better than their gas counterparts. Yes, there is increased weight, but the weight helps those two SUVs achieve better weight distribution, and they ride on a slightly stiffer suspension.
The only performance-limiting factor of a hybrid would be the batteries being drained, but batteries get better everyday.
Lastly, Toyota *can* compete on HP, but they just don't want to. It's like a schoolyard game, where kids compete who can run the farthest, jump the highest, etc etc.
I am still holding out hope for an LS460h. But who knows for sure? If the LS600h were to get 30-35 mpg in the city I would go for it. But I doubt this will be the case. Sooner or later, I bet the 460 will also be a hybrid. I may have to wait a year or two.
"If a potential timeline were to be put together for the LF-Sh / LS, it would look a little bit like this. The introduction of the LF-Sh with full details will take place promptly before the cars public showing at the Tokyo Motor Show, which just took place. Having completed its purpose of appetizer to the world, focus would shift to the production LS, scheduled to make an appearance in production-ready form at the 2006 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, this coming January. Finally, the long wheelbase and high-performance hybrid versions would be shown at the New York International Auto Show in April. Expect sales for the regular LS to begin late 2006. 4.3 liters, for the first time with this new generation Lexus will be offering an alternative. The LS flagship (and Lexus flagship for that matter) will be the LS 600h, a hybrid-assisted version of the LS 460 generating the equivalent power of a car with a 6.0-liter engine (V8 or V12; whichever sounds more dramatic). Aside from offering unheard-of levels of performance, the LS 600h will also be a most economical full-size sedan, with diesel-like fuel consumption and even lower emissions."
I agree with everything you said. But the whole thing does not make sense. If GS450 is 340 why would the GS460 be 350-360. So the 4.6L must be 380 or so. But again the GS 450 is supposed to be the top range? Why would the GS460 have more HP then. We are missing something!
"Kazuo Okamoto, executive vice president for r&d of Toyota Motor Corp., said the LS 460 will have a newly engineered V-8 engine, as well as an all-wheel-drive hybrid V-8 edition with the equivalent power of a 6.0-liter V-12".
What exactly does this mean? Will the engine size be the same as the 460 and then be renamed LS600h because it's a hybrid? I take it that the engine will indeed be bigger for the 600h with amazing gas mileage ("diesel-like fuel consumption") as Mike posted above. That would indeed be very impressive.
The GS450h has not been confirmed at any hp rating as of yet.....The only confirmation is that it is in excess of 300 hp....I believe they used the same terminology for the launch of the IS350, and that came in at 306.....Car and Driver has speculated that it could have 340-350 hp, I also remember C&D speculating that the 2004 refreshed LS will have a higher output engine....that never materialized....
However, it would not be surprising if the hybrid does push 340 hp (GS450h)....And the LS will have to come in around that number b/c we are assuming the GS will get that engine as well...if you have a higher output engine than the hybrid, why bother paying a premium for the hybrid?
Yes the gasoline engine will be the same as the base LS....4.6L....The hybrid will produce a minimum of 60 horses on top of that....However, usually the engine is tuned a bit lower than if it were by itself (RX400H is a perfect example where the 3.3L engine only produces 204hp in the hybrid vs 220 by itself)...I'm assuming that will continue with the LS600h, but it is believed that Lexus will unveil the latest hybrid technology in the LS600h so things could be slightly different....
We've all assumed the GS will get the new 4.6 L engine, but maybe that will not be the case......The current GS V8 is priced at $52k and change....You cannot charge a higher price than that already established for the 4.6 vs the 4.3...And I would assume the Gs450h will be priced higher than $52k (this is where Lexus will become extremely profitable - even more so than now).....Obviously it will have more standard options available, but the 4.6L gasoline will cannibalize the sales of the Hybrid...since Lexus is selling the technology based on "performance"....
This leaves the 4.6 on the LS in a class of its own and with a possible range of 340-380 hp and that would further set the LS apart as the flagship model...Maybe 380 hp is not out of the question for the 4.6....I might be turning into a believer...
I believe there will be two engines - a 4.6L V8 and a 5.0L V8. The *base* LS will have the 4.6L, and the top-end (flagship) LS600h will have the 5.0L V8-Hybrid). Maybe later, Lexus may decide to offer the 5L V8 model to slot between the LS460 and LS600h.
See what Lexus did with the new IS twins - a 204HP low-end, and a 306HP high-end - a 100HP difference. We could get same thing with a 340HP LS460, and a 440HP LS600h, laying the groundwork for a 380HP LS500/AWD by MY2008...
If your speculation is correct, then Lexus will have to release the 5.0 L engine as early as the release...I'm assuming this is a new engine in Toyota's garage, unless it's somehow shared with the new Tundra, etc....So if we assume it is a completely new engine, and Toyota has spent some serious amount of R&D, why only mate it to a hybrid which I assume will not be the high selling model and not recoup your investment as quickly?
The LS should have 3 engine choices....4.6, 5.0 and the 600h hybrid....Then the 4.6 will only produce slightly over 300 hp, maybe 320-330 tops...That would make sense if there are 2 engine choices and a hybrid, especially when you factor in the GS....the 4.6 then will produce an output below that of the hybrid GS....
Fun to speculate but an interior shot to match the exterior would be nice and should nave been shown by now.
In the past Lexus has said the battery for the LS hybrid would be gen 2 - adding power and taking on more highway driving - thereby further improving highway MPG. This is why the V12 type power wuth V6 type economy was the initial marketing words on the car over a year ago. OAC will remember that as he posted similar words several times. So I'd expect that any comparisons to the battery in the RX and it's power enhancement will be outdated and too low of an estimate. If V12 power is the key word here than the power output is likely to be the V12 7 series at the low end and the V12 S class at the high end. I think it'll be closer to the BMW at around 460HP. I still think we get 3 engines - the 460, the 500 - which would be a specialty tuned version of it for a LWB car and then that engine mated with the battery in the 600H.
"It is not at all like any other car," [Toyota's Okamoto] said. "The flagship's driving performance, compared to the (Mercedes) S class or (BMW) 7 series, can excel over these other makes."
Hm, isn't that what Toyota said about the 2006 GS and IS over their BMW and MB counterparts?
The GS isn't outperforming anything.
The IS350, while the fastest in straight-line, doesn't beat the 3 or even the G35 in driving dynamics.
I hope that Lexus talking heads stop blabbering about how their going to outperform this and that from BMW and just stick to what they're good at. The over-promises and under-deliveries in terms of driving dynamics are getting old now.
"A hybrid version of the LS is in the wings, and there's more beyond that...
...'For Lexus, hybrid technology is extremely important,' he [Mr. Okamato] says. 'We want to change the concept of the vehicle. What we have been discussing among the engineers is that the feel of driving the car should be more like a jet liner.'"
Like a jet liner eh? I have a feeling that the interior concept of the car will be quite striking and luxurious, obviously, but with some new, futuristic design elements that will rock the boat.
Lexus is building this car up to be quite the unveiling and the world will be amazed in it.
I stand by my predictions that there will be a 460, 500, and a 600h.
We'll see. We do not know much about this car yet. This promise is quite a bit difference than what was said about the GS and IS, no? I mean, correct me if I am wrong. In addition, the GS will be receiving the 3.5 L and 4.6 L. The car is in its 1st model year, give it a break, especially when Lexus is in the process of making over all aspects of the model ranges. This will make a lot more sense when the total make-over is finished! This is a work in progress!
Every car company and every car line is a work in progress. There is always something more powerful and more advanced in the works, both in house and with competitors.
In any case, that issue is unrelated to my point.
The words may be different, but the "promise" is essentially the same as before.
Before the intro of the 2006 GS, some Lexus official came out and said how it's going to beat or at least match the 5 series in driving performance. Not even close.
Before the intro of the 2006 IS, some Lexus official came out and said how it's going to beat or at least match the 3 series in driving performance. Hasn't happened in overall driving dynamics, although the IS350 is the fastest in straightline.
Before the intro of the 2007 LS, Okamoto is making the same claim. Based on their past credibility, I'm not holding my breath.
BTW, the 2007 S600 makes 510 hp and 612 torque. Hope the LS600h is packing some serious heat to "outperform" that.
There in lies the problem, jrock. You see the glass half-empty, others see it as half-full. Lexus will be successful in their new strategy. Notice the GS outselling the M that is supposedly more sporty. Notice how the IS is selling out of the gate... And BMW-ophiles are moaning about the lack of this... or the lack of that... but the car is what it is... Another home run from Lexus....It will hit its conservative 40K sales target for MY2006. So what exactly are you complaining about over-promises and under-deliveries !!! For a company this rich, this powerful, this smart, and this successful, I won't be throwing stones at them, you know.
Toyota can buy BMW and MB combined, and still have gobs of $$$ left... Do you wanna say they don't know what they are doing ? Only the few BMW-fanatics take Denny Clements words verbatim and twist them against the new GS and IS, and now trying the same with the new LS. It won't work...
Anecdotal evidence for ya: See how much interest the new S is garnering on Edmunds'... vs the new LS ? Who do you think the market anticipation lies on the most ... MB, BMW or Lexus ???
Is it forgone that we will be seeing a GS460? I keep hearing about this car and as far as i'm aware it hasnt been confirmed. If any model is going to share a 4.6L engine, it would be the SC. If lexus deems that the 430 needs more power, they can retune the engine. Far more feasible than dropping in another.
"Notice the GS outselling the M that is supposedly more sporty."
This has nothing to do with the M or sales.
"Only the few BMW-fanatics take Denny Clements words verbatim and twist them against the new GS and IS, and now trying the same with the new LS. It won't work..."
Instead of defending Lexus blindly at every turn and try to make it seem as if it's somehow the fault of "BMW-fanatics" (BTW, I hope you don't think I am one. I admit that I have my biases and those are against BMWs if anything.), you should just look at the facts.
FACT: Lexus officials said specifically that the GS and IS will outperform their BMW counterparts.
FACT: The GS and IS do NOT perform their BMW counterparts.
They said what they said. No twisting is necessary. It's not about glass half-full or half-empty.
This song and dance about how they're making a "BMW beater" in driving dynamics is getting old.
Lexus cars have other things going for them and many other superior attributes. They should push those. No need to even mention BMW. When you consistently make promises that don't deliver, you lose credibility.
The LS600h may turn out to be 760i and S600 beaters in driving performance, as Okamoto stated. But based on their past history, I'm not betting the farm on it.
BTW, this is not a knock on the car itself, which I hope and predict will be an excellent vehicle.
A bunch of MB execs said they had no reliability or quality issues over the years either and that those issues they said they didn't have are now fixed and behind them. Sure. I'm surprised so many people miss out on the fact that this is all about getting headlines and creating some spice and controversy. Do you know how many steakhouses say they are the best in NYC? All you need is to get one person to agree with you to make such a claim. Is what Lexus says held to a different standard than others. There is enough BS coming out of all the lux mfrs and 20 years from now they'll be an equal or greater amount. It's called marketing. BMW's ultimate driving machine statement is a marketing statement, not a factual one. There are many cars that are more ultimate than BMW in driving dynamics.
I agree with that. Toyota actually does deliver on many of the things they promise... so one does get one's hopes up, and it's disappointing when it just turns out to be marketing jargon. Just based on what happened with the IS and GS, when I read Okamoto's statement about BMW, my initial reaction was, "Here we go again....".
That said, even if they're less sporty, I'll still get the IS350 over the 330i and the LS over the 7.
Not the GS over the 5 though. I found the GS disappointing in too many non-driving related aspects as well.
Comments
Cyclone - V12 like power is not about the larger market. It's about the smaller market and it's a cost of doing business. Forget logic as it doesn't apply. What that type of power is about is a car that can set itself apart for people that want to be set apart. Lexus needs to build it at some point because a brand that wants the high cache lux name needs to build a car for those people that want to be set apart. Otherwise you sit and watch others get that press instead of you. It's a small investment to make - especially for a giant like Toyota - for a larger halo effect prize on a brand that will shortly get a lot of global press. You don't need a Maybach or a Rolls but you need an S600 fighter or maybe better something that's a few steps higher.
the Current LS matches the 750 engine and S500, we expect more with the 4.6 or 5.0 and that difference will be more than enough,
we need more luxury features, like the GS450h thing i mentioned up, thats what we need, plz stop all this fuzz about the engine, and search to look for new lexus techn
Thanx
Lexusi
On a side-note, there is no information on the specifics of technologies and, if there are, please enlighten us.
Then, and only then, will we stop speculating about the engines, as this is the only info we have.
Go ahead, buy ear muffs (or turn off you monitor), because I don't think anybody will stop talking about it until we either get tired of it or there is some new info on the LS!
I totally agree - my 430 is plenty powerful in all of my needed applications. Gas is going up, folks - and it's not going to be $1.50 ever again - so why the horsepower race? Getting my LS to get me 20 mpg in town, would be a much better idea, so that I don't have to drive a dang Prius someday. I want to keep my luxury sedan, nice and big, but efficient.
I hope Toyota doesn't get GM like since they are now getting so big, and lose touch with the needs of their market..... Big Company Disease (BCD) is an evil thing that destroys great companies.......
I'm not sure there is a stigma - but I certainly have an issue with a V-6 in my luxo-cruiser. For example, I would not consider the Cadillac CTS with the 6 in it. It's blown, so it's fast, but not smooth enough or balanced enough for luxury feel - I have no interest in it. Lincoln has put V-6s in their LS and their Continentals of the past, and they sell them, but I don't like them, and if I were Bill Ford, no Lincoln would ever have anything other than a throaty V-8 in it. It would be part of the brand image, same for Cadillac.
Lexus, Bimmer & MB however, make cars from soup to nuts, so they are going to have some 6s in them, but I won't buy one. If I want a 6, I'll buy the Avalon, and save the extra trunkload of cash.
Then 2nd point, that clip Kiyonaga-san had it, did anyone translate it? anyone knows Japanese here? a friend? we need to know what they talked about? they surely mentioned mercedes
And about all this BMW talk, the threat from lexus as they say, how do u think lexus will do and what do lexus needs (new tech) to overcome all those?
Thanx
Lexusi
Does anyone have interior shots of the new LS yet? I used the search feature for the forum with no luck.
Thanks!!!
sorry man, but we are all waiting for something, lets hope they release something soon
Lexusi
If you're gonna be a bad driver, be a bad driver. If you are an aggressive driver (like me), fine. I don't want constant backtalk and arguing from my car.
How many wives do I need?"
ONCE AGAIN, I agree with Dr. Fill! Absolutely correct, Dr, (and absolutely frightening that we agree!) :surprise:
Also, can we try to keep messages away from the discussion of S class vs. Lexus... we all have our preferences, and obviously most of us prefer the LS or we wouldn't be here.
AHH lexus... thoust irritate me so. Give us the info!
About those headlights... I love them. Someone had mentioned on another forum that he heard from Lexus that the 3 beam LED lights would only make it into production form of the LS 600h and same goes for the grille. The non-HSD LS's will get a toned down grille and conventional projector headlights.
On the pre-crash system... good idea. Despite the opposition, I think that on long highway drives, which is expected from the LS, being a big cruiser, this will help a lot of people avoid senseless accidents. This is a good thing. Cmon guys, don't let typical male arrogance get in the way of saving your freakin' life!
All right guys, I'll compromise.
If somehow the car sense you are drunk (breath sensor) or are falling asleep (snore sensor), the car automatically loses power, and slows to a stop.
Then says "Don't you make me break my foot off in your @$%!"
Artie Lang is funny! :P
Other than that, let's have only one ego in the car. Less catfighting saves lives too!
DrFill
As Kramer would say it - Giddyup.
Lexus is already the top-selling luxury car in the US, and now the Japanese carmaker is aiming for world domination when its new LS goes on sale late in 2006 to rival the S-Class and 7 Series.
At the Tokyo Motor Show Lexus unveiled its Flagship Sedan Concept Car, or the LF-Sh, and this prototype's design is pretty close to that of the production model.
The striking LF-Sh is a showcase of the new Lexus design direction and also shares its styling cues with the new IS.
But the best feature of this concept hides under its bonnet where a 5-litre V8 hybrid engine lurks.
No info is yet available about this unit's performance figures but insiders say that it is a match for the V8s on offer from Mercedes and BMW.
This engine is heading for the production model, which will also come with a normal 4.6-litre V8 engine.
Source: link title
Redoing my calculations, I can see the LS 600h putting out 460 HP from a 380 HP 5.0 L.
Now giddyup!
...Okamoto, who was closely involved in engineering the first- and second-generation LS sedans, compared the sharpness of the concept car's surface to a Japanese sword.
"It is not at all like any other car," he said. "The flagship's driving performance, compared to the (Mercedes) S class or (BMW) 7 series, can excel over these other makes. The generation to come will have the same impact and shock as the first generation LS 400."
Okamoto said the sedan is an important step to move Lexus from a luxury brand to a prestige brand."
Source: http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=103436
So, spring 2006 - GS 450h, LS 460/500 - better performance than S or 7? Sounds good to me.
Where in the heck is Kiyonaga with more news?
Reading between the lines on the news we are getting, it will appear that only ONE trim would get the hybrid - the LS600h. Standard on this trim is AWD, while the LS460 will have AWD option. It will also appear that there would only be two trims - LS460 (4.6L V8) and LS600h (5.0L V8-h). Maybe both will get a SWB/LWB variants, I dunno... But the news is slowly but surely getting out in trickle... thanks mostly to Mike.
BTW, Mike did you say you are 19 yrs old ???
It's basically guaranteed that the new LS will have a hybrid V8 option.
The new 4.6L V8 by itself will not be too far from the 400HP mark.
The GS450h has been confirmed to have about 340HP. This puts the GS460 and LS460 somewhere around the 350 - 360HP range.
The RX400h's electric motors add around 60HP, and untold amounts of torque to the regular gas engine. This is also keeping in mind the 3.3L V6 in the RX400h is detuned to just a little over 200HP.
Logically the LS600h, or whatever it's name will be, will most likely have over 400HP total output, not to mention a godly amount of torque. The 4.6L V8 will probably be detuned a bit to seamlessly be integrated with the electric motors.
Actually, in terms of handling, hybrids have proven to be pretty good. Take the Highlander hybrid and the RX400h ... both are faster, and also handle better than their gas counterparts. Yes, there is increased weight, but the weight helps those two SUVs achieve better weight distribution, and they ride on a slightly stiffer suspension.
The only performance-limiting factor of a hybrid would be the batteries being drained, but batteries get better everyday.
Lastly, Toyota *can* compete on HP, but they just don't want to. It's like a schoolyard game, where kids compete who can run the farthest, jump the highest, etc etc.
And some more info:
"If a potential timeline were to be put together for the LF-Sh / LS, it would look a little bit like this. The introduction of the LF-Sh with full details will take place promptly before the cars public showing at the Tokyo Motor Show, which just took place. Having completed its purpose of appetizer to the world, focus would shift to the production LS, scheduled to make an appearance in production-ready form at the 2006 North American International Auto Show in Detroit, this coming January. Finally, the long wheelbase and high-performance hybrid versions would be shown at the New York International Auto Show in April. Expect sales for the regular LS to begin late 2006.
4.3 liters, for the first time with this new generation Lexus will be offering an alternative. The LS flagship (and Lexus flagship for that matter) will be the LS 600h, a hybrid-assisted version of the LS 460 generating the equivalent power of a car with a 6.0-liter engine (V8 or V12; whichever sounds more dramatic). Aside from offering unheard-of levels of performance, the LS 600h will also be a most economical full-size sedan, with diesel-like fuel consumption and even lower emissions."
Source: link title
What exactly does this mean? Will the engine size be the same as the 460 and then be renamed LS600h because it's a hybrid? I take it that the engine will indeed be bigger for the 600h with amazing gas mileage ("diesel-like fuel consumption") as Mike posted above. That would indeed be very impressive.
However, it would not be surprising if the hybrid does push 340 hp (GS450h)....And the LS will have to come in around that number b/c we are assuming the GS will get that engine as well...if you have a higher output engine than the hybrid, why bother paying a premium for the hybrid?
Isn't it fun to speculate?
This leaves the 4.6 on the LS in a class of its own and with a possible range of 340-380 hp and that would further set the LS apart as the flagship model...Maybe 380 hp is not out of the question for the 4.6....I might be turning into a believer...
See what Lexus did with the new IS twins - a 204HP low-end, and a 306HP high-end - a 100HP difference. We could get same thing with a 340HP LS460, and a 440HP LS600h, laying the groundwork for a 380HP LS500/AWD by MY2008...
Speculating, of course...
The LS should have 3 engine choices....4.6, 5.0 and the 600h hybrid....Then the 4.6 will only produce slightly over 300 hp, maybe 320-330 tops...That would make sense if there are 2 engine choices and a hybrid, especially when you factor in the GS....the 4.6 then will produce an output below that of the hybrid GS....
In the past Lexus has said the battery for the LS hybrid would be gen 2 - adding power and taking on more highway driving - thereby further improving highway MPG. This is why the V12 type power wuth V6 type economy was the initial marketing words on the car over a year ago. OAC will remember that as he posted similar words several times. So I'd expect that any comparisons to the battery in the RX and it's power enhancement will be outdated and too low of an estimate. If V12 power is the key word here than the power output is likely to be the V12 7 series at the low end and the V12 S class at the high end. I think it'll be closer to the BMW at around 460HP. I still think we get 3 engines - the 460, the 500 - which would be a specialty tuned version of it for a LWB car and then that engine mated with the battery in the 600H.
Hm, isn't that what Toyota said about the 2006 GS and IS over their BMW and MB counterparts?
The GS isn't outperforming anything.
The IS350, while the fastest in straight-line, doesn't beat the 3 or even the G35 in driving dynamics.
I hope that Lexus talking heads stop blabbering about how their going to outperform this and that from BMW and just stick to what they're good at. The over-promises and under-deliveries in terms of driving dynamics are getting old now.
"A hybrid version of the LS is in the wings, and there's more beyond that...
...'For Lexus, hybrid technology is extremely important,' he [Mr. Okamato] says. 'We want to change the concept of the vehicle. What we have been discussing among the engineers is that the feel of driving the car should be more like a jet liner.'"
Source: link title
Like a jet liner eh? I have a feeling that the interior concept of the car will be quite striking and luxurious, obviously, but with some new, futuristic design elements that will rock the boat.
Lexus is building this car up to be quite the unveiling and the world will be amazed in it.
I stand by my predictions that there will be a 460, 500, and a 600h.
Now, if we can see the interior, pleaaaaase?
In any case, that issue is unrelated to my point.
The words may be different, but the "promise" is essentially the same as before.
Before the intro of the 2006 GS, some Lexus official came out and said how it's going to beat or at least match the 5 series in driving performance. Not even close.
Before the intro of the 2006 IS, some Lexus official came out and said how it's going to beat or at least match the 3 series in driving performance. Hasn't happened in overall driving dynamics, although the IS350 is the fastest in straightline.
Before the intro of the 2007 LS, Okamoto is making the same claim. Based on their past credibility, I'm not holding my breath.
BTW, the 2007 S600 makes 510 hp and 612 torque. Hope the LS600h is packing some serious heat to "outperform" that.
Toyota can buy BMW and MB combined, and still have gobs of $$$ left... Do you wanna say they don't know what they are doing ? Only the few BMW-fanatics take Denny Clements words verbatim and twist them against the new GS and IS, and now trying the same with the new LS. It won't work...
Anecdotal evidence for ya: See how much interest the new S is garnering on Edmunds'... vs the new LS ? Who do you think the market anticipation lies on the most ... MB, BMW or Lexus ???
'nuff said...
This has nothing to do with the M or sales.
"Only the few BMW-fanatics take Denny Clements words verbatim and twist them against the new GS and IS, and now trying the same with the new LS. It won't work..."
Instead of defending Lexus blindly at every turn and try to make it seem as if it's somehow the fault of "BMW-fanatics" (BTW, I hope you don't think I am one. I admit that I have my biases and those are against BMWs if anything.), you should just look at the facts.
FACT: Lexus officials said specifically that the GS and IS will outperform their BMW counterparts.
FACT: The GS and IS do NOT perform their BMW counterparts.
They said what they said. No twisting is necessary. It's not about glass half-full or half-empty.
This song and dance about how they're making a "BMW beater" in driving dynamics is getting old.
Lexus cars have other things going for them and many other superior attributes. They should push those. No need to even mention BMW. When you consistently make promises that don't deliver, you lose credibility.
The LS600h may turn out to be 760i and S600 beaters in driving performance, as Okamoto stated. But based on their past history, I'm not betting the farm on it.
BTW, this is not a knock on the car itself, which I hope and predict will be an excellent vehicle.
That said, even if they're less sporty, I'll still get the IS350 over the 330i and the LS over the 7.
Not the GS over the 5 though. I found the GS disappointing in too many non-driving related aspects as well.