Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

nvbanker

I haven't, and wouldn't even consider anything Audi at this point. They're irrelevant for me.

stevekilburn

I am alarmed at this propaganda to lure LS 460 into value pricing snake pit. Once this new LS 460 gets into value pricing game the down ward spiral is a real possibility.

Those who are clamoring for value-pricing on this board can buy GS or even avalon, they do not need LS 460/460L at all.

LS 460 should be reserved only for buyers who want the best of the best. Whether LS 460 has best of the best handling is a question, but in all other departments it is clearly superior.

LS 460 should be priced head to head with Audi and BMW 7-series. Not even a penny less.

stevekilburn

LS 460 does not need value pricing at all. That is toyota's department. LS must gun for the top dollar.

Dr. Fill is right on the money, this relentless increase in market share can destroy Lexus image. In my opinion, Lexus should quickly do a mid-term re-haul of GS which has been a disaster and retire the ES 350 altogether. ES 350 is doing significant damage and contributing to the perception that lexus handling is sloppy.

ljflx

Same for me nvbanker. Audi's there but it's irrelvant and I think most US lux buyers feel the same way. I'll always be a Lexus or MB buyer (I'd take my chances on reliability with the GL if I were SUV shopping today. I've read a lot about that SUV recently and while it still has the quirky nav and other things MB seems to have nailed that SUV in most of the key areas and supposedly it's a great ride with adequate handling) Lexus and MB have what makes a true lux car or SUV nailed. MB's problem is they've been there for awhile so improvements are like watching a mature tree grow and the overemphasis on styling, which is partially a byproduct of maturity may be too much. I saw an S550 on the road trailing an S500 old model today. The old car was far better looking to my eyes. Watching Lexus grow and improve is like watching a tree in early life grow, particularly as they evolve the LS from a US based car to a world wide car in 2007. Hence Lexus new features become more noticable. It's the same in any business. The new guy has more growth of product to show.

Lexus took a step toward a tighter ride in 2001 and will take a larger step in 2007. The euro suspension - which was much more obtainable in the 2001-3 model years - was an excellent handler and surpassed the base S-class in handling to me and I drove both many times. The story I get from my dealer is the Euro buyers shopping Lexus wanted the Euro mated to a longer wheel base car so maybe we'll start seeing it again now that a LWB car is here or maybe the new car will be a lot tighter and not need that suspension. I also noted that Lexus is making this LS600HL in a 209" frame which makes it the longest car in the segment by 4". Someone at my dealership has ridden in it and says the ride is stunning with excellent handling. Supposedly Lexus increased the size of the HL to squeeze out that dream ride. We'll see. I am really looking forward to that car but my wife is a little intimidated by the thought of car a foot longer than the current car.

Topspin - the initial LS had a $35K base but most models shipped here had options that put the car to $42-43K. The S at that time or just after Lexus came out was probably a $60-65K car.

stevekilburn

Lexus has to dramatically cut down on its low-end vehicle lines and go up-market with LS and other higher end models. it must improve its vehicle mix to become more top heavy.

I would say the vehicle lines should be

Sedan: IS, GS and LS (with racing versions for each, ex: IS 500). Price them head to head with 3,5 and 7-series.

SUV: RX, GX and LX (accelerate the new model introduction). Price them head to head with M-class, GL and Range Rover respectively.

Hard Top Coupe Convertible: Have SC move up to compete with SL and may be a "GC" to compete with SLK.

And remove all the stupid flab like ES 350 which is a blotch on entire Lexus line. besides ES is not relevant outside US.

If Lexus hopes to compete with BMW and Benz, it better get its priorities straight and close its ears to value propagandists.

stevekilburn

link title

here is the link. Enjoy the pictures, text and great video.

houdini1

I agree that the LS should be priced as high or even higher than the S class, because it is a better car in all respects. What you need to concentrate on is getting Mercedes to LOWER their prices accordingly.

Audi is also not on my radar screen.

atlas7

"Lexus has to drastically cut down on it's low end vehicles", yeah right and BMW is going to stop making the 3 series and MB will stop making the C class,,,,None of this is going to happen. The Lexus E350 keeps getting better and is a fine entry point for the Lexus buyer. It is selling like hot cakes in the US, the worlds largest car market. All of the Lexus models will "swim up stream" in areas of performance, reliability, luxury, etc...It is happening across the sedan product line and I suspect the SUV's and SC are next to "swim up stream" with new models. Regardless Lexus will deliver more for less. This will never change when you compare Lexus prices to the Germans.

ljflx

You want them to stop producing a car that sells 90K units a year. That is a money machine for them. It'll never happen and many ES cars are now reaching $40-42K pricetags. Not bad for an entry point vehicle and higher than some of the competition. What a hole that would be in their model line-up. No chance on earth of this even being discussed at Lexus HQ (unless the person bringing it up wants to be fired on the spot) let alone happening.

Anyway this is a 2007 LS discussion, not an ES or even a Lexus brand discussion.

tagman

This discussion about value has occurred many times on this and the HELM forum. The bottom line is always the same.

Most realize that "value" is an inherent and important component of the Lexus marketing strategy for the U.S. market. It also provides an important platform from which to launch other markets. Without the American market, the rest of the global picture would have serious difficulties, from a number of business perspectives. I'm quite sure ljflx understands this, and many of the rest of you do.

In any event, it is quite surprising to see the praise for Lexus at a peak, and then on the other hand to slam them as if they do not know how to market their own cars. Rest assured, Lexus is quite brilliant at building quality vehicles that appeal to the masses, as well as marketing them.

To stay on topic for this forum, as many of you will appreciate . . . the top-of-the-line LS600hL will create a new upper tier for the LS, and that vehicle will bring upper-end pricing to the LS. This vehicle will represent an "exclusive" vehicle and will be essentially without any real competition, IMO. Thus the price premium for this vehicle can be substantiated.

Again, particularly for the upcoming standard LS, value will continue to be an essential marketing component.

TagMan

nvbanker

"Lexus took a step toward a tighter ride in 2001 and will take a larger step in 2007."

There is also a slight difference between the ride and handling of my 02 LS, and my 05 LS. The 05 is discernably tighter in the steering tolerance, though still weighted properly, and the ride is considerably more responsive. The tires and wheels were the same, exactly, so it has to be the car. The body style changed in 04, and I assume that's when the engineering change to the suspension also changed.

nexuslexus

Has anybody else noticed a bit of a decline in the quality of the posts to this board.

This is a board about the upcomming LS (right now, heavily focused on the LS600hl).

This is not the place to discuss the BMW 7-series, the MB S550 or the A8. Some discussion of them is ok, but we really don't need to have page after page of arguments over which is better, whether Lexus should increase the pricing, or what not. This is a form for information that we find, not for making incoherent and frankly amatuer suggestions to the most profitable automaker in the world.

Many of us are busy people, and we don't have time to read through all of these posts... if we could keep it on topic, that would be great.

Thanks,

nexuslexus.

tagman

Has anybody else noticed a bit of a decline in the quality of the posts to this board.

Yes, you are smart to notice. And be warned that this is the same damaging process that a particular poster did to the HELM forum . . . constantly and relentlessly telling Lexus how to run its business and price structure, instead of accepting that Lexus is quite capable of doing what it does best.



TagMan

123itsdee

i was on a lexus site and if you dont remember. the previous body style of the lexus ls was released on october 12th so look for the new ls 460 to come on that day or right around that time

nvbanker

Not sure you can draw that conclusion logically. There is no commitment on the part of Lexus to introduce all model changes on Oct 12 each time. Frankly, I'd be very surprised if they were quite that focused on precision as far as introductions. For what purpose would they do that? I don't think you have a date.

nexuslexus

Its true that Lexus most likely doesn't focus on releasing the product on the same date as the other LS was released. However, it is reasonable to assume that the next LS will be released in or around the month of October. This is not new news.

drfill

I'd bet good money that the 3 major mags are driving the LS as we speak, and preparing their "First Drive" columns for their October "2007 New Car" issues!

So just wait another couple of weeks for your copy to arrive in the mail! :shades:

C&D and MT should have a Full Test for November.

Steve

Good job finding that article!

The translation is rough, at best, so I can't really get their drift, but they seemed to be impressed!

I don't really follow your beef with the ES, doh.

There seems to be a lot of GS-bashing going on. It is selling with the highly-acclaimed M35/45 in a virtual dead heat, so I would throw so much dirt on it.

I think Lexus would be quicker to move the LS upmarket if the GS caught on better.

The GS should be edgier, like the 5-series. Or the IS. But the IS could be tightened up too.

If the GS would sell 40k, consistently, the LS would be free to fight at a higher price point. Lexus may not want an unseemly gap from $45k to $65k. :surprise:

DrFill

oac

I'd bet good money that the 3 major mags are driving the LS as we speak, and preparing their "First Drive" columns for their October "2007 New Car" issues!

So just wait another couple of weeks for your copy to arrive in the mail!

Thanks... can't wait for those "First Drives" and especially the comparos with the usual "reliables". We'll see how it goes.

BTW, early indication suggests an Oct 21st or thereabout release date. That's what my dealer confirmed to me... I dunno how much in the know he is. The same guy who told me to prepare for a $72K LS460 SWB. I'd rather special order mine at the mid-60s. I don't want all the junk they pack in just to hike the price.

middlp23

eeeeeeek :sick:

middlp23

The 05 is discernably tighter in the steering tolerance, though still weighted properly, and the ride is considerably more responsive

My dad has an 05 LS and it actually was quite entertaining driving through a twisty canyon near where we live. Maybe not as composed as his 02 5 series, but still very surefooted.

oac

The way the Euros talk about LS posters, you'd think no one but themselves can read the HELM board. Sheesh... Nothing would make me post on that board again... Yes, I know you Euro fans are lurking around here, but its a waste of your time baiting people here... Here its all about the new LS series.

BTW, words from those in the know is that the new LS600hL has a ride and handling unmatched, and should set a new benchmark. The 460 ain't bad either, but not in the same league as the 600hL. Also, more Lexus models on the way including possibly a V-12h.... Hmmmmm.... Sounds like the competition ain't seen anything yet !

Here is a link to the First Drive from Canada... a mix of good and *so-so* news about the new LS... Everything but not enough handling in the twisties (nothing a good set of 20s and stiffer springs cannot fix)... Otherwise, the best LS thus far... Is that good enough for ya ?

http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/07ls460.htm

cyclone4

This is quite impressive oac! I'm sure that the Euros will concentrate on the "so-so" news of its handling and forget about everything else. It does not sound like they tested the sport tuned front and rear air suspension model does it? I wonder how that would do on the twists and turns for those that care? It will be very interesting to read about other test drives in the next several weeks. I am personally waiting for the LS600hL, but I have a friend who is on the list to purchase the LS460L. I will be test driving it myself soon after he takes possession.

I totally agree with you about the other board. I wouldn't be surprised if it dies in time since there will be few, if any, Lexus posters left there.

cyclone4

ljflx and anyone else in the know....I just read in the specs (Lexus site) that the LS600hL will be 202.8 inches long. However, I see where ljflx says that it will be 209 inches in length. Which is it?

ljflx

Let's just focus on this car and forget the trivial stuff.

Here's the news I got on the car. It will be out around Oct. 15th and that's from a high source. But it could be here a week or so earlier or later. So timeframe is October 8-22nd. This guy drove the LS600HL and the LS460L. The LS460L handling is much more European but the ride is even better, quieter and smoother than the current car. The car is a technology marvel and everything is a piece of cake to learn in 5-10 minutes. Acceleration and torque is great. Interior is phenomenal and the ML has been tuned to new heights. The guy says the 600HL is the best lux sedan he's ever driven. Given this guy has owned Bentley's in the recent past that's a heck of a compliment.

The reviews are already callable as far as I'm concerned. Euro mags and Euro review lovers will be looking for the bad in the car and will downplay the technology and grudgingly admit it's new benchmarks. The Canadian review OAC put up already hints at that. The difficult to read German review last night was actually quite sincere and from what I've been told about the car seems to capture it's essence a lot better than the Canadian review. None of this matters as demand for this car is already phenomenal and I'm a lot more concerned about some pricing that may go $10K over sticker for the first 6 months than I am about what a reviewers opinion is. It's all dependent on Lexus production but let's keep in mind that story awhile back that the LS430 production was phased down two months early in order to rev up the LS460 production. So maybe there'll be enough supply. Let's hope so.

ljflx

Cyclone - I saw that as well in the original specs and then in updated specs from Non-Lexus sources it says 209". Could be the 600H is 202" and the HL is 209". I'd rather the car be in the 202-205" range. I'll see if I can find out later this week.

nexuslexus

There is no 600h. The 600 only comes in the LWB form.

cyclone4

Thank you Len! I always appreciate everything you have to offer about these vehicles.

I am also hoping that it is more like 202-205" rather than 209". But, I am still going to get one even if it turns out to be 209" long.

uvawahoo

Ironically, I've read a lot of posts saying that Lexus sells because it offers value. The only problem w/ that comment is that the "IS, ES, GS, RX, GX, and LX" are pretty much priced EXACTLY like their competitors. The IS is priced just like the 3-series, ES doesn't really have a direct competitor, but can cost around 40K, the GS is priced just like the E-Class, Infinite M, which is 50k for a V6 and 60k for a V8 (loaded). The RX is slightly cheaper than the ML, but doesn't offer a V8 comparison. The GX and LX are both priced pretty high as well, w/ the GX in the 50's and the LX in the 60+.

So, really, the only two cars that are being offered at some sort of "value" is the LS and the SC. And the SC is not really a value car, b/c it's its between the SLK and SL, which is pretty much it's current pricing point. The main difference between MB and Lexus is that after the GS, Lexus doesn't jump another 30k to get to the next car. Before the MB CLS came out, MB would jump from a 60k E-Class to an 85-90k S-Class.

Lexus is actually offering direct pricing for ALMOST EVERY car they sell. It's only one car that they offfer some sort of value, and have been able to create a huge following. I'm not sure if they should price directly w/ an S-Class, but pricing a little bit higher won't be too bad.

ljflx

There is no 600H for the US. There is a 600H for Japan and other parst of the world.

Kirstie_H

Please stay focused on the 2007 LS - this isn't:
1) a comparisons discussion
2) an alternate location for HELM conversation
3) a secret "talk about other members" topic

Some posts have been removed, as will further off-topic messages. Thanks for sticking to the LS!

oac

There is no 600H for the US. There is a 600H for Japan and other parst of the world.

Correct... We get only the L here. Maybe someday the 600h will also come to the our shores...

oac

There was, some will argue, a typo in the recent in-print info provided by Lexus in their new Lexus magazine which states that the 460L is 208.2", but somewhere on its website, it says 202.8"... So which is it ? I am inclined to believe its more like 202.8" for the 460L which should be the exact same length for the 600hL. But, I may be wrong.

syswei

here

nvbanker

I think you're safe in assuming that initially, from October possibly til April, the dealers won't be "dealing" much, with possible add-on stickers as well. I think they'll have supply, but they'll fly off the lot - dealing won't be necessary to move them.

That's why I'm going to wait another year before I pull any triggers - but I'm sold on the car.

oac

In the autobild.de *test* of the LS460L v S550, they mentioned that the 0-100kph for the LS460L is 5.7s, while for the S550 its 5.4s... However, Lexus gave a 5.4s 0-60mph. One may surmise that the tested LS460L by the Germans was a Euro-speced version with lower gearing ratios, which will make it a tad slower than the US-speced. Anyone assume that may be the case ? I have always found Lexus' tested acceleration numbers to be dead-on ! So I am inclined to believe a 5.4s 0-60 for the 460. The 460L may be at 5.5s tho' since its slightly longer. Besides, the current LS430 is rated at 5.7s 0-60 with its *smaller* 278HP rating... So with 380 ponies, and 8-speed, getting to 60 from a standstill should be better, no ?

LS460L pictured with an S550... looks good..



BTW, I have not seen any spec for the Cd for these cars. Anybody have a clue ? The current LS430 has like 0.25 or something ridiculously low.

middlp23

So according to the press release, both rear seats will still be available with some kind of recline just like the current LS... does anyone know what the heck escaine is? Oh and where would that 11th(!) airbag go?

syswei

anyone know what the heck escaine is?

I assume a synthetic suede, like alcantara.

ljflx

On October 1 we'll get a clue about LS supply as that is when Toyota reports sales for September. Remember sales is shipments from the factory not cars sold by the dealers.

nvbanker

The LS 460 and 460L go on sale in Canada in October. Prices will be announced closer to that time. A new hybrid version, the LS600hL will be introduced for 2008.

bugfiat

I just picked this up.

http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/road-test.jsp?id=822

tagman

Now that's a reality check. Interesting.

Some of the same issues as before, but add the grabby brakes.

Really rather soulless, engine lacks low down grunt, grabby brakes.

The refinement is a given.

TagMan

stevekilburn

The review seems like a subtle attack on Lexus.

1. The car isn't even out in the market and this reviewer by the name "Andrew Frankel" already gave ratings in reliability and quality department. Deceptive for sure!

2. Only 2.5 stars in image! The luxury institute rated Lexus as right behind Porsche and Benz based on an objective survey by wealthy respondents. Ahead of BMW, Audi, Jaguar, and Cadillac. Lexus by no measure needs to prove to this reviewer what its image is.

3. Running costs: First he talks about Lexus' higher fuel economy, a stunningly efficient engine compared to thirsty S-class, but then he goes on to contradict himself and bad mouth lexus by giving 3.5 stars.

4. In its class LS 460 has the highest fuel economy and lowest rate of depreciation. Why 3.5 stars then??

This reviewer lacks integrity.

ljflx

This is why I said earlier to expect this type of stuff from certain reviewers. You've got to understand the mindset - they don't want anyone to upset the applecart so they will look for the negatives, accentuate them to the hilt and give little value to the positives. This will likely be the case (much more) overseas, where Lexus is an oncoming threat than it will be here, where they are already dominant. It's so predictable that it's a joke. Reminds me of Euro Disney.

drfill

How can a 4300lb car have a lack of low-end grunt, but get to 60MPH in 5.5 seconds? :confuse:

Let's not gloss over that picture of the two cars! It reminds me of when I saw both cars at the Houston Auto Show in February, sitting maybe 10 yards away from each other.

The Benz a little swoopier, a little glitzier up front, but carries a little cellulite out back.

The Lexus a little more conservative in front, but noticably better than before, and the back has the Germans beaten rather easily.

It's not that the Lexus LS is a particluarly beautiful car, but it is more akin to the last-gen S-Class in that it just goes for an attractive design, and doesn't let bad styling ruin it.

The new S took the next step, and made some missteps.

DrFill

ljflx

Here's a quote from the Canadian review that OAC put up last night:

"Despite these improvements, the big Lexus does not excel on twisty back roads. It is best suited to highway cruising. Driving in excess of 200 km/h on the autobahn did not feel much different than idling along at half the speed. But it is no sports car and tossing the big sedan around on tight curves too soon after lunch will soon have you wondering if you might toss something else."

Now here's the Engliushman's version:

"While the car floats down the road so serenely, it seems hard to conceive that it's going to be sufficiently firm and responsive to make it worth punting through some quick curves.

Well, it has a surprise waiting for you. Although it does quickly start begging its electronic safety systems to rescue it from its nasty driver if you try to bully it through a hairpin, in faster turns progress is much more assured. Indeed in long, fast curves it settles very securely onto its springs and can barrel through with great aplomb without compromising the comfort of those on board."

So one guys losing it while the other is surprised how easily the car handles the same twists. These reviews already contradict each other and all you're reading is a personal subjective opinion made up in advance of ever driving the car. Somewhere else I read a quote that went something like this

"you can't love the car but you have to be a great admirer of it."

Come again? What the heck does that mean. It means you can't love it because you set your mindset that way in advance - as I noted earlier.

tagman

Anyone daring enough to predict the outcome of the S-Clas and LS comparisons? Because of the differences in the reviews let's consider the overall concensus as it unfolds and defines itself.

Personally, I predict that the LS will be recognized as the best Lexus ever, with improvements in almost every category across the board. I predict that there will still be some deeper and lingering criticisms of the performance/handling characteristics of the car. I predict that the car will be particularly recognized for its refined and quiet nature.

I predict that in the final analysis, the Mercedes Benz S-Class will still be considered the benchmark, as it is at this very moment in time, but the '07 LS will be closer than ever nipping at its heels.

I predict further down the road that the LS600hL will become an exclusive type of vehicle that will have no competition in the true sense and will set an entirely new standard for a niche market vehicle.

Given all the new technology, I predict that there will be an unfortunate, but minor technical issue with the new LS, but Lexus will weather the storm nicely.

I predict record sales, as all of you do, I'm sure.

More later . . .



TagMan

ljflx

Does it matter, Tag. They are (will be in the case of the LS) both great cars and will bring great enjoyment to whoever buys them. I think the mags that prefer performance will favor MB and those that put less emphasis there will go Lexus.

BTW - I saw your post today before it was deleted and best of luck with the Lotus. Also Bull run about to start.

hpowders

Sounds like the electronically enhanced brakes that I so detested on the GS430 have been transferred to the 2007 LS.
This does not auger well. Those brakes were hyper-sensitive and impossible to modulate to a smooth stop.

I guess potential customers will have to try the brakes for themselves and see if this could be a potential deal-breaker.
A shame.

tagman

Thanks, lj. Much appreciated.

BTW, you are right about the mindset going in . . . it will tip the scales in either direction.

Bottom line for those looking for a terrific luxury car with tremendous value . . . '07 Lexus LS appears to be a great choice.

TagMan

hpowders

Steve. You have to try the car for yourself. Don't rely too much on the reviews.
When the 2007 LS comes out, go to your Lexus dealer and drive one.
If you do, please post here about how you found the brakes.

All the reviewers found fault with the 545. I didn't listen.
I leased the car and am quite glad I did.