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Those who are clamoring for value-pricing on this board can buy GS or even avalon, they do not need LS 460/460L at all.
LS 460 should be reserved only for buyers who want the best of the best. Whether LS 460 has best of the best handling is a question, but in all other departments it is clearly superior.
LS 460 should be priced head to head with Audi and BMW 7-series. Not even a penny less.
Dr. Fill is right on the money, this relentless increase in market share can destroy Lexus image. In my opinion, Lexus should quickly do a mid-term re-haul of GS which has been a disaster and retire the ES 350 altogether. ES 350 is doing significant damage and contributing to the perception that lexus handling is sloppy.
Lexus took a step toward a tighter ride in 2001 and will take a larger step in 2007. The euro suspension - which was much more obtainable in the 2001-3 model years - was an excellent handler and surpassed the base S-class in handling to me and I drove both many times. The story I get from my dealer is the Euro buyers shopping Lexus wanted the Euro mated to a longer wheel base car so maybe we'll start seeing it again now that a LWB car is here or maybe the new car will be a lot tighter and not need that suspension. I also noted that Lexus is making this LS600HL in a 209" frame which makes it the longest car in the segment by 4". Someone at my dealership has ridden in it and says the ride is stunning with excellent handling. Supposedly Lexus increased the size of the HL to squeeze out that dream ride. We'll see. I am really looking forward to that car but my wife is a little intimidated by the thought of car a foot longer than the current car.
Topspin - the initial LS had a $35K base but most models shipped here had options that put the car to $42-43K. The S at that time or just after Lexus came out was probably a $60-65K car.
I would say the vehicle lines should be
Sedan: IS, GS and LS (with racing versions for each, ex: IS 500). Price them head to head with 3,5 and 7-series.
SUV: RX, GX and LX (accelerate the new model introduction). Price them head to head with M-class, GL and Range Rover respectively.
Hard Top Coupe Convertible: Have SC move up to compete with SL and may be a "GC" to compete with SLK.
And remove all the stupid flab like ES 350 which is a blotch on entire Lexus line. besides ES is not relevant outside US.
If Lexus hopes to compete with BMW and Benz, it better get its priorities straight and close its ears to value propagandists.
here is the link. Enjoy the pictures, text and great video.
Audi is also not on my radar screen.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Anyway this is a 2007 LS discussion, not an ES or even a Lexus brand discussion.
Most realize that "value" is an inherent and important component of the Lexus marketing strategy for the U.S. market. It also provides an important platform from which to launch other markets. Without the American market, the rest of the global picture would have serious difficulties, from a number of business perspectives. I'm quite sure ljflx understands this, and many of the rest of you do.
In any event, it is quite surprising to see the praise for Lexus at a peak, and then on the other hand to slam them as if they do not know how to market their own cars. Rest assured, Lexus is quite brilliant at building quality vehicles that appeal to the masses, as well as marketing them.
To stay on topic for this forum, as many of you will appreciate . . . the top-of-the-line LS600hL will create a new upper tier for the LS, and that vehicle will bring upper-end pricing to the LS. This vehicle will represent an "exclusive" vehicle and will be essentially without any real competition, IMO. Thus the price premium for this vehicle can be substantiated.
Again, particularly for the upcoming standard LS, value will continue to be an essential marketing component.
TagMan
There is also a slight difference between the ride and handling of my 02 LS, and my 05 LS. The 05 is discernably tighter in the steering tolerance, though still weighted properly, and the ride is considerably more responsive. The tires and wheels were the same, exactly, so it has to be the car. The body style changed in 04, and I assume that's when the engineering change to the suspension also changed.
This is a board about the upcomming LS (right now, heavily focused on the LS600hl).
This is not the place to discuss the BMW 7-series, the MB S550 or the A8. Some discussion of them is ok, but we really don't need to have page after page of arguments over which is better, whether Lexus should increase the pricing, or what not. This is a form for information that we find, not for making incoherent and frankly amatuer suggestions to the most profitable automaker in the world.
Many of us are busy people, and we don't have time to read through all of these posts... if we could keep it on topic, that would be great.
Thanks,
nexuslexus.
Yes, you are smart to notice. And be warned that this is the same damaging process that a particular poster did to the HELM forum . . . constantly and relentlessly telling Lexus how to run its business and price structure, instead of accepting that Lexus is quite capable of doing what it does best.
TagMan
So just wait another couple of weeks for your copy to arrive in the mail! :shades:
C&D and MT should have a Full Test for November.
Steve
Good job finding that article!
The translation is rough, at best, so I can't really get their drift, but they seemed to be impressed!
I don't really follow your beef with the ES, doh.
There seems to be a lot of GS-bashing going on. It is selling with the highly-acclaimed M35/45 in a virtual dead heat, so I would throw so much dirt on it.
I think Lexus would be quicker to move the LS upmarket if the GS caught on better.
The GS should be edgier, like the 5-series. Or the IS. But the IS could be tightened up too.
If the GS would sell 40k, consistently, the LS would be free to fight at a higher price point. Lexus may not want an unseemly gap from $45k to $65k. :surprise:
DrFill
So just wait another couple of weeks for your copy to arrive in the mail!
Thanks... can't wait for those "First Drives" and especially the comparos with the usual "reliables". We'll see how it goes.
BTW, early indication suggests an Oct 21st or thereabout release date. That's what my dealer confirmed to me... I dunno how much in the know he is. The same guy who told me to prepare for a $72K LS460 SWB. I'd rather special order mine at the mid-60s. I don't want all the junk they pack in just to hike the price.
My dad has an 05 LS and it actually was quite entertaining driving through a twisty canyon near where we live. Maybe not as composed as his 02 5 series, but still very surefooted.
BTW, words from those in the know is that the new LS600hL has a ride and handling unmatched, and should set a new benchmark. The 460 ain't bad either, but not in the same league as the 600hL. Also, more Lexus models on the way including possibly a V-12h.... Hmmmmm.... Sounds like the competition ain't seen anything yet !
Here is a link to the First Drive from Canada... a mix of good and *so-so* news about the new LS... Everything but not enough handling in the twisties (nothing a good set of 20s and stiffer springs cannot fix)... Otherwise, the best LS thus far... Is that good enough for ya ?
http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/07ls460.htm
I totally agree with you about the other board. I wouldn't be surprised if it dies in time since there will be few, if any, Lexus posters left there.
Here's the news I got on the car. It will be out around Oct. 15th and that's from a high source. But it could be here a week or so earlier or later. So timeframe is October 8-22nd. This guy drove the LS600HL and the LS460L. The LS460L handling is much more European but the ride is even better, quieter and smoother than the current car. The car is a technology marvel and everything is a piece of cake to learn in 5-10 minutes. Acceleration and torque is great. Interior is phenomenal and the ML has been tuned to new heights. The guy says the 600HL is the best lux sedan he's ever driven. Given this guy has owned Bentley's in the recent past that's a heck of a compliment.
The reviews are already callable as far as I'm concerned. Euro mags and Euro review lovers will be looking for the bad in the car and will downplay the technology and grudgingly admit it's new benchmarks. The Canadian review OAC put up already hints at that. The difficult to read German review last night was actually quite sincere and from what I've been told about the car seems to capture it's essence a lot better than the Canadian review. None of this matters as demand for this car is already phenomenal and I'm a lot more concerned about some pricing that may go $10K over sticker for the first 6 months than I am about what a reviewers opinion is. It's all dependent on Lexus production but let's keep in mind that story awhile back that the LS430 production was phased down two months early in order to rev up the LS460 production. So maybe there'll be enough supply. Let's hope so.
I am also hoping that it is more like 202-205" rather than 209". But, I am still going to get one even if it turns out to be 209" long.
So, really, the only two cars that are being offered at some sort of "value" is the LS and the SC. And the SC is not really a value car, b/c it's its between the SLK and SL, which is pretty much it's current pricing point. The main difference between MB and Lexus is that after the GS, Lexus doesn't jump another 30k to get to the next car. Before the MB CLS came out, MB would jump from a 60k E-Class to an 85-90k S-Class.
Lexus is actually offering direct pricing for ALMOST EVERY car they sell. It's only one car that they offfer some sort of value, and have been able to create a huge following. I'm not sure if they should price directly w/ an S-Class, but pricing a little bit higher won't be too bad.
1) a comparisons discussion
2) an alternate location for HELM conversation
3) a secret "talk about other members" topic
Some posts have been removed, as will further off-topic messages. Thanks for sticking to the LS!
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Correct... We get only the L here. Maybe someday the 600h will also come to the our shores...
That's why I'm going to wait another year before I pull any triggers - but I'm sold on the car.
LS460L pictured with an S550... looks good..
BTW, I have not seen any spec for the Cd for these cars. Anybody have a clue ? The current LS430 has like 0.25 or something ridiculously low.
I assume a synthetic suede, like alcantara.
http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/road-test.jsp?id=822
Some of the same issues as before, but add the grabby brakes.
Really rather soulless, engine lacks low down grunt, grabby brakes.
The refinement is a given.
TagMan
1. The car isn't even out in the market and this reviewer by the name "Andrew Frankel" already gave ratings in reliability and quality department. Deceptive for sure!
2. Only 2.5 stars in image! The luxury institute rated Lexus as right behind Porsche and Benz based on an objective survey by wealthy respondents. Ahead of BMW, Audi, Jaguar, and Cadillac. Lexus by no measure needs to prove to this reviewer what its image is.
3. Running costs: First he talks about Lexus' higher fuel economy, a stunningly efficient engine compared to thirsty S-class, but then he goes on to contradict himself and bad mouth lexus by giving 3.5 stars.
4. In its class LS 460 has the highest fuel economy and lowest rate of depreciation. Why 3.5 stars then??
This reviewer lacks integrity.
Let's not gloss over that picture of the two cars! It reminds me of when I saw both cars at the Houston Auto Show in February, sitting maybe 10 yards away from each other.
The Benz a little swoopier, a little glitzier up front, but carries a little cellulite out back.
The Lexus a little more conservative in front, but noticably better than before, and the back has the Germans beaten rather easily.
It's not that the Lexus LS is a particluarly beautiful car, but it is more akin to the last-gen S-Class in that it just goes for an attractive design, and doesn't let bad styling ruin it.
The new S took the next step, and made some missteps.
DrFill
"Despite these improvements, the big Lexus does not excel on twisty back roads. It is best suited to highway cruising. Driving in excess of 200 km/h on the autobahn did not feel much different than idling along at half the speed. But it is no sports car and tossing the big sedan around on tight curves too soon after lunch will soon have you wondering if you might toss something else."
Now here's the Engliushman's version:
"While the car floats down the road so serenely, it seems hard to conceive that it's going to be sufficiently firm and responsive to make it worth punting through some quick curves.
Well, it has a surprise waiting for you. Although it does quickly start begging its electronic safety systems to rescue it from its nasty driver if you try to bully it through a hairpin, in faster turns progress is much more assured. Indeed in long, fast curves it settles very securely onto its springs and can barrel through with great aplomb without compromising the comfort of those on board."
So one guys losing it while the other is surprised how easily the car handles the same twists. These reviews already contradict each other and all you're reading is a personal subjective opinion made up in advance of ever driving the car. Somewhere else I read a quote that went something like this
"you can't love the car but you have to be a great admirer of it."
Come again? What the heck does that mean. It means you can't love it because you set your mindset that way in advance - as I noted earlier.
Personally, I predict that the LS will be recognized as the best Lexus ever, with improvements in almost every category across the board. I predict that there will still be some deeper and lingering criticisms of the performance/handling characteristics of the car. I predict that the car will be particularly recognized for its refined and quiet nature.
I predict that in the final analysis, the Mercedes Benz S-Class will still be considered the benchmark, as it is at this very moment in time, but the '07 LS will be closer than ever nipping at its heels.
I predict further down the road that the LS600hL will become an exclusive type of vehicle that will have no competition in the true sense and will set an entirely new standard for a niche market vehicle.
Given all the new technology, I predict that there will be an unfortunate, but minor technical issue with the new LS, but Lexus will weather the storm nicely.
I predict record sales, as all of you do, I'm sure.
More later . . .
TagMan
BTW - I saw your post today before it was deleted and best of luck with the Lotus. Also Bull run about to start.
This does not auger well. Those brakes were hyper-sensitive and impossible to modulate to a smooth stop.
I guess potential customers will have to try the brakes for themselves and see if this could be a potential deal-breaker.
A shame.
BTW, you are right about the mindset going in . . . it will tip the scales in either direction.
Bottom line for those looking for a terrific luxury car with tremendous value . . . '07 Lexus LS appears to be a great choice.
TagMan
When the 2007 LS comes out, go to your Lexus dealer and drive one.
If you do, please post here about how you found the brakes.
All the reviewers found fault with the 545. I didn't listen.
I leased the car and am quite glad I did.