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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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Comments
Sorry to burst your bubble, but all news about Toyota is not good news and all personal experiences with a Toyota are not good. I agree 100% that there are a lot of good things about Toyotas. Even those with hesitation have indicated repeatedly, that they loved their Toyota/Lexus EXCEPT for the hesitation. This isn't about trying to scare people out of buying one. Hopefully, these discussions will allow buyers to be informed. Hiding or minimizing the bad points helps no one (well, I guess it helps Toyota stockholders for the short term). Unfortunately for you, the discussion is about a potential flaw in Toyota's and we are going to continue to talk about it.
dla2, your personal experience is of great import to those trying to weigh their options or those trying to decide what to do with their own hesitating car. So don't be intimidated, because your experiences have been very beneficial. Your experience is also very telling of how bad this problem can be when it is evident. I believe like you that every V-6 5-speed auto probably has a lag/hesitation, but the degree of the lag is what varies, so that it is probably not detectable or barely detectable by some and so noticeable to others that it actually presents a safety hazard.
I do not agree with you. Discussing something is one thing. I have no problem with that. There are many posters here that bring very good information to this discussion. A few seem to want to remind people day after day at every opportunty that there are problems with this or that. That is not helpful discussion in my opinion. What you say is being helpful is just another way of saying * Don't buy a Toyota because I'm telling you they have all these problems* If you say it often enough you will convince some people. That is your purpose. No matter how you make it look it, that kind of talk is only meant for one reason. The only person getting any benefit out of doing it is the person telling the bad news. I am not saying Toyota makes perfect cars and I am not saying they have no problems. I am saying that most are here to discuss problems in a meaningful way . A few posters are not. They are here only to send a negative message--Don't buy Toyota.
I think that is wrong.
Please read my post number 656. That is a helpful post. That is what discussion is all about. Telling a story a dozen times about how you sold your Camry because you didn't like something about it isn't helpful. I can understand if someone tells it once or twice, but don't tell me that repeating it over and over isn't for some other reason. That is just bashing for no other purpose than to send a message.
The early LS400 has a serious problem regarding instances of sudden windshield fogging as do almost all Toyota/Lexus vehicles with automatic cimate control systems.
Those of you complaining about horrid A/C odors will be pleased to know that the new LS430's have a UV light source within the A/C plenum to combat the growth of the microbes that are the base source for that "dirty gym socks" odor.
And as of 2004 the RX330 even has a C-best solution ( 3 c-best customer options actually) for combating the issue of sudden windshield fogging. I am completely mistified as to why Lexus doesn't widely publisize the C-best options.
I bought a MY2000 RX300 AWD before I discovered that it really is only a FWD vehicle. I traded up to a MY2001 AWD RX300 to get VSC/Trac and HID head lamps.
Why.
Because even with the warts Lexus is the best of the best.
Are has been in the past IMMHO.
Would I but another RX, an RX330?
Not on your life!
Some may think the engine hesitation doesn't exist, and even fewer will insist it isn't hazardous. Having spoken with Toyota and Lexus personel over the past year, and from what I read in teh various forums, I have no question that there is an engine hesitation problem in many Toyota and Lexus vehicles.
How serious is it?
Damn serious IMMHO.
Back when I bought that first 92 LS400 I quickly discovered that its Trac system would almost instantly dethrottle the engine if the rear wheelspin developed, even of the shortest duration. After being left out in front of oncoming traffic with no gas pedal response a few times while the Trac system "unwound" the dethrottling servomotor I learned to turn off the Trac each and every time I started the car.
So, l think I have more than earned the right to BASH Toyota and/or Lexus if the conditions arise that make it appropriate to do so.
Right now I have a transaxle in my RX300 that is of questionable reliability. It is pretty obvious that the fluid is becoming contaminated with something, most likely worn clutch frictional surface material.
And I personally think that my fluid contamination is somehow a precursor to the hesitation symptom MANY are reporting.
Asking for help or sharing info is not the same as a jihad against Toyota, which is not appropriate here.
But you all are generally doing quite well with it, so...enjoy and continue please...
Shifty the Host
Or, are we buyng into some sort of mass hysteria syndrome, a feeding frenzy if you will. Just a thought
As for mass hysteria, that can happen but it won't happen here because we don't want to provide a "dumping ground" for a particularly upset owner's rage and angst.
We want people to share information from many different sources, and thus inform and encourage each other, hopefully with enough good data so that they know what they're talking about if they want to deal with their particular problem.
When I go for test drives with people, two things constantly amaze me. One, the number of people who can sense the most minute smell or sound when I can't, and the other, the number of people who are totally oblivious to noises or sensations that are setting off all my alarm bells. Go figure.
I appreciate the reminder by Administrater Mr Shiftright that people should not be using these forums as personal vendettas-just bashing for whatever reason they do it. I'm sure some of that goes on because people feel they have a right to do it. Maybe they do but it should not happen here. I see every Toyota or Lexus topic in Edmunds Forum has been posted many times with the same Pittsburg newspaper piece about hesitation. To me that's more than what these forums are all about. Perhaps an obsesion or someone trying to send a message. It's not right.It does not help anyone just fans the flame of discontent.
This discussion is about a hesitation problem, so it is most certainly going to be focusing on a negative (the problem) rather than the pluses of owning a Lexus or Toyota or any other make with the problem.
When people buy brand new cars, the last thing they want is for it to have any problems, how ever small they are. When there is a problem, people have every right to complain and criticize. I am not saying that its ok to bash the manufacturer though.
Unless people who have this problem don't complain about it, Toyota may not pay attention to the problem and fix it. I am going to make sure that my friends and family are aware of this if they consider buying the same car. I wish I had visited this site or known the article on the Post-Gazette prior to purchasing this car. That should have given an insight into what to look for when test driving.
My personal thoughts , based on what I have been reading and very good input by some experts on these boards, is that the problem is probably in all of the Toyota's with the V-6 5-speed automatic. It is just that there is variation in the length of the delay. This could be related to driving style (i.e., comments about how this tranmission "learns" the driving style of the primary driver). When it is a noticeable delay, I also believe that it is a safety hazard, which means it is a big deal regardless of the number of people having the problem.
I think it is mainly because these transmissions have more gears-5 insted of 3 or 4-and it just takes more time to shift through them
i don't think more gears means you have to sequentially shift through more of them to be in the proper gear for re-application of the throttle.
i believe you posted an experiment to perform with a manual transmission vehicle, and for those of us familiar with manuals, that was confusing: hesitation isn't a mis-shift (being in a gear higher or lower than optimal for current engine revs).
i think we can agree that hesitation is an application of the throttle that isn't immediately honored and is evidenced by a lag in the control system response to the command made by the operator. the reasons could be numerous.
some posters are claiming no hesitation, while some are claiming hesitation of a more or lesser degree. we have the additional complicating factors as we try to discuss the topic and some report their experience that the language people are using is a bit impercise and inconsistently applied. plus people have varying knowlege of the workings of their vehicles...
most notably, we can all claim some ignorance as to the impact of additional technology or control system strategies applied to assist in improved fuel economy or safety (for example stability control).
noone who is genuinely interested in this topic wishes to bash any manufacturer, specially scoti1.
If you went to an expensive restaurant, and ate the best-tasting meal you've ever had, but it made you throw up an hour later, would you call it a "great" meal? A "good" meal? Or a "bad" meal? Would you wish you had eaten somewhere else? (I would)
I've read every post in this forum, and quite a few more before this forum existed - in the Toyota Highlander Problems & Solutions forum. It's strange; many (if not most) of the posters don't have this problem. The moderator has never driven a car with it - and neither have I. I began many months ago to research the Highlander when I decided that I was going to trade up from my '99 Honda CR-V (it was a manual trans, BTW). I read all of these poster's stories, and chose to wait until the '06's come out. Meantime, I bought an '02 Highlander, and am overall pretty glad I did. I'm very grateful to all those who take the time to post and can give me some real information. Many post no information at all, only opinions - mostly pro (the "ain't got it" crowd) - and then the con (the "I got it bad" crowd). After awhile, the first group comes across as being Toyota Apologists; the second group, Toyota Bashers. Those that paid $20-40k and got a Hesitater, have paid for the right to complain. I've noticed that there doesn't seem to be any poster that has the hesitation, that continues to be a Toyota Apologist. Conversely, seems like all of the Apologists do not have the problem. Even still, on the whole, it's a good balance.
I've written before, as have others, that nothing we do in this forum helps the situation. I now disagree. I do not accept the fact that the future transmissions shouldn't or couldn't be better. It's a sure bet that if nothing is said about the problem, nothing will be done about the problem. While I'm certain that Toyota is working on the future, everyday, I'm just as certain that how much money and effort is spent on this issue will depend on their perception of how bad this issue is, versus, say, water leaks in their new 2005 Tacoma. Or whatever else is on the list to be updated.
I don't bash companies or people, but I don't accept the "they all do that" dodge. I won't bash, but I reserve the right to trash.
The soapbox is now free to someone else. I'll just read for awhile...
My style of driving, admittedly has become more conservative as I get older. I have been driving for 39 years. OMG! Am I really that old? LOL When I was a more agressive driver, all cars had carburetors, and they could, and did hesitate without warning! Perhaps (and no insult intended here) perhaps the older drivers are used to this kind of issue. dunno.
As an example only, I never look for the "hole in traffic", and always err on the side of caution. If a vehicle is approaching, and I can choose to eiother try to get in the space, or wait, I will always wait. If I am driving the V6 5 spd automatic Toyota, or any other car. So my point is, it is not a safety hazard for me. I am not saying that it isn't a saftey hazard for others, but it may depend on one's driving style. Which may aslo contribute to the learned portion of the trasmission. Perhaps more conservative driving teaches the trans to not react as you experience?????
Sorry for being so wordy.
respectfully, Jeff
i hope it's OK to post this.
this site indicates there is a moderately priced means to connect a laptop to your vehicle and pull diagnostic codes as well as sample real-time data:
here:
http://www.obd-2.com/
and specifically here for the toyota vehicles, there is an extended manufacturer specific paramter list that looks promising:
http://www.obd-2.com/toypida.htm
regards.
What happens if you're in the acceleration lane with ten cars backed up behind you?
And then a few start honking to get you to move on.
Un-nerving, right..??
The more we drive a newly acquired car the more used to its power and handling charactoristics we become. And then one day it catches us by complete surprise because it doesn't do what we have learned to expect. Of course it can be worse if this is like, the third MY of this model you have owned.
No big deal, a one time incident, no sweat, it doesn't happen again for a long period and so we write it off as some sort of happenstance.
But then it does happen again.
NOW you get a lot more conservative in simulier situations because you know that you can no longer trust the vehicle...
That you paid $50,000 for just a few months back.
Interestingly, the exacts same article appears in the American International Dealers Association - see www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=37367
Who'll be the first to post with a review of the "software upgrade"?
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Subject
slingshots
Discussion Thread
Response (John Doe) 10/02/2003 12:13 PM
Dear Mr. West:
Thank you for your response. I am sorry that the response was not the response you hoped for. I have documented your concern at our national headquarters.
If you have any further concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.
Sincerely,
John Doe
Customer Satisfaction Representative
Customer (Willard West) 09/30/2003 04:43 PM
John,
If, as you seem to suggest, this is/was an effort to enhance "driver feel", then Lexus has failed, MISERABLY!!
Given that other drivers and owners are complaining of the same "odd" feel I suspect a trip to the dealer would be a waste of my time and your money.
I rather doubt if anyone would continue to complain in writing such as they currently are given a reasonably comprehensive explaination of why the transmission is acting in this way. In the meantime I would suspect taht a goodly number of them are wasting your dealers time just as you suggest.
I would think that if, as I suggested, this is a safety feature then it would be more than worthwhile for you to do the required research and provide an detailed explanation of the transmission's operation.
Willard West
Response (John Doe) 09/30/2003 01:35 PM
Dear Mr. West:
I am following up with you regarding your inquiry. The driving-feel characteristics you describe can be normal operation of the vehicle, which can vary under different driving conditions and driving styles. Your dealer can test drive your vehicle to confirm if your vehicle is operating as designed. If your vehicle is operating as designed, the characteristics you observe are related to our efforts to balance the operation of the various mechanical systems of the car, while we seek to optimize driving-feel.
If you have any further questions or concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.
Sincerely,
John Doe
Customer Satisfaction Representative
Response (John Doe) 09/29/2003 12:40 PM
Dear Mr. West:
Thank you for contacting the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department regarding your 2001 RX 300. I am currently researching your submission. Please expect a response within the next three to five business days.
If you have any further concerns, you can also reach the Lexus Customer Satisfaction Department at 1-800-255-3987, Monday through Friday, 6:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m., Pacific Time.
Sincerely,
John Doe
Customer Satisfaction Representative
Customer (Willard West) 09/26/2003 03:26 PM
Dear Sirs/Ms,
I currently own a 2001 AWD RX300.
Some time ago I noticed that it seemed to have a tendency to feel as if it were "accelerating" during coasting on the highway or just before coming to a complete stop. After awhile I came to realize that since it was so repeatable that it was likely a SAFETY design feature. It did help me to come to this decision since I was aware that some years ago Cadillac had added an over-running clutch to their FWD vehicles to prevent the potential for loss of directional control due to front wheel/tire braking from engine compression on slippery roadbed surfaces.
I am a regular participant in Edmunds Town Hall's RX300, RX330 and Highlander threads.
During the past year or so there have been a number of posts complaining about their seat-of-the-pants feeling regarding transmission shifting activity as I have described above, a "slingshot" effect as one slows, coasting, to 29-30MPH, or in another case it was described as if just before stopping someone following "bumped" the leading vehicle slightly.
My response has been that since these are FWD vehicles, or in the case of AWD, predominantly FWD (95/5 F/R{???}), Toyota has found an alternative method, to GM's, to reduce the potential for loss of directional control resulting from engine braking on slippery roadbed surfaces.
Would you mind researching the issue for me to validate my responses since there seem to be a goodly number of doubting thomases out there in the RX world. And could you also advise me as to exactly how this effect is implemented, upshift, torque converter lockup, etc?
Willard West
The following is my response:
You may want to keep in mind that you are driving a FWD vehicle. Many manufacturers are going to extraordinary efforts these days to find ways to LIMIT the level of torque you can apply to the front DRIVE wheels when you are first starting up from a full stop. This is, of course, the most likely time that enough torque can be produced to result in substantial WHEELSPIN.
Substantial wheelspin on a FWD vehicle, or an AWD that is front torque biased (many are), can easily result in loss of directional control, even on a slightly slippery surface, let alone on ice or parked snow.
So just as ABS is designed to quickly release, moderate, the braking when IMPENDING wheel skid is sensed (turning, or rotational rate is declining VERY rapidly), modern day TRAC systems are designed to virtually INSTANTLY dethrottle the engine if wheelspin, slip, is sensed.
Since "impending" wheelspin resulting from engine torque isn't something that is predictable, no computable solution, the factory enters default engine torque limits into the TRAC system for use in the lower gear ratios with WOT operation.
So, your Sienna may already have the level of HP/Torque you really desire, but you simply can't use it for jack-rabbit starts.
"The vehicle didn't respond immediately when his wife pressed the accelerator while trying to merge into traffic, causing her to narrowly avoid an accident."
What this says is that the hesitation caused her to avoid the accident.
Below is the way I read it when I first saw it.
The hesitation kept her from accelerating as she moved, merged, into the hole in the high speed lane traffic and she only narrowly avoided an accident by "swinging" back into the acceleration lane.
WW: If you read the sentence, it can only be read one way. You know what he was *trying* to say because you know the issue, but look again at the way the sentence is written:
"The vehicle didn't respond immediately when his wife pressed the accelerator while trying to merge into traffic, causing her (WHAT CAUSED HER?--the vehicle? the hesitation?) to narrowly avoid an accident."
That is, he is literally saying that the vehicle or hesitation CAUSED her to NARROWLY AVOID an accident.
So thanks to the hesitation, she avoided the accident!
You know, without making sense in English, we are all doomed to misunderstand each other. This guy should know how to communicate and he don't none.
Try reading the article again. Yes, this article cites an old, poorly-worded story. But you're missing the news. Dated April 12, 2005 - Toyota announces "software grades". That's the news. Picking at the things that lead up to it is irrelevant.
Apparently Toyota thinks it's a problem - whether you or anyone else "wanted it to be" a problem. I admit I don't understand the meaning or the logic of your post #683. I'm unfamiliar with problems that appear only when we want them; it implies that they aren't there when we don't want them. Sounds like a fairy tale world to me.
ecotrklvr has made a mistake in his posting. shall we jump on him for his composition?
the message is the important thing - more so than the composition - unless you find it hyper-critical to marginalize it.
it's a manufacturer's concession and it legitimizes the experiences of the vehicle owners does it not?
So yes, I understood the statement, even initially, because of my own prior understanding of the situation.
Sloppy is as sloppy does. You guys are way too forgiving IMO, and without setting a standard for journalists, you may get even worse articles next year from local newspapers.
Demand the best!
I agree that the article's writer used the wrong words to convey the gist of the story of the woman who managed to "narrowly avoid" an accident. But so what? When someone talks about their "hot water heater", if I point out that there's no need to heat hot water, I do it only as a joke. The term is in common usage, even though it is wrong, so I overlook it. I humbly beg us all to forego the spelling errors and fractured prose of those that bring us info, and concentrate on the message.
There's "the story" and then there's the way the story is told. How about we comment on the message about Toyota and the software upgrade - and forget about the messenger?
This is a big day in the history of this issue. Lead us onward, Shifty.
Patrick
The article you guys are hanging your reputations on also says the NHTSA did a 5 month study on the hesitation thing and concluded the transmissions are working properly so they are no longer concerned about it. The article also says it is not a safety issue and there have been no accidents.
Geez, I have never seen so much made out of so little. You guys are flogging this thing to the moon with darn little to go on.
I stand with the moderater about the way that other piece about *narrowly avoided* is wirtten. I am no Shakespeare but even I can do better than that. Besides I don't believe half of what those kind of reporters write. Most of it is just to generate readership. Accuracy and integrity doesn't matter much to them.
About the second one I would say now that Toyota has made a change there will be the same result by NHTSA--end of story.
I think this whole thing is a few people making a lot of noise about a problem they want the rest of the world to agree with. There asre over 600 posts here all by the same clique of grumpy people. Well it sure looks like the rest of the world is pretty happy with their choices if you ask me because all we hear about in this forum is you guys. The Pittsburg Newspaper guy does not speak for the rest of the world either and i get from the way he writes that his latest piece is just a *look at what i did* pat on his own back.
I don't doubt that you guys think you have a problem with your rides. If i felt as bad about my ride as you guys seem to it would get fixed pretty fast. A new ride--end of story. But i would not spend the kind of time you guys do crying about the old ride that's for sure.
I am a firefighter and I can say for sure there are a whole bunch of things more important in life than carrying on a ridculous crusade about your car.
--------
Kraft - editting since our posts crossed in cyberspace. Glad you went back and actually read the article before criticizing it more.