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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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Did they not notice? Did they think people wouldn't mind? I wonder....
Here is the list that Lexus/Toyota provided, and none of them worked!
Let's pray this time.
Bulletins for 2002 Lexus ES 300 V6-2995cc 3.0L DOHC MFI
TC004-03R AUG 03 A/T - Poor Shift Quality
TC002-02 JUN 02 A/T - Harsh 2nd to 3rd Gear Shift at High Altitude
But my RX300 ALWAYS responds, virtually instantly, with a downshift when I depress the throttle.
But I have NO QUESTION that something is wrong within my transmission. At 38k miles my transmission fluid began to look very dirty and smelled burnt. I changed out the fluid. Same thing at the next oil change so I changed out the fluid, 4 quarts, again. Within a week it looked dirty again. Change out the fluid, drop and clean the sump pan, also drain the ATF from the diff'l. 5 quarts this time.
A week later and the fluid is still looking okay.
Something is contaminating my transaxle fluid enough to prevent it from functioning properly as a simple hydraulic fluid.
Additionally there seems to be far too many reports of premature transaxle failures in the RX300 series such as mine.
So I think, my surmise, is that Toyota has "fixed" the premature failures in the RX300 series by eliminating the quick downshifts in the RX330 series.
Suppose, when my RX does a "quick" downshift, the previously commanded upshift is still in progress and now the newly commanded downshift results in the transaxle being in two gear ratios simultaneously for a few millseconds, say 80 to 100. No big deal in the short term but after 40k miles the fluid is so contaminated with the clutch frictional surface wear debris it cannot fully function as designed.
The fix...
Change the firmware programming on the RX330 series to prevent any downshifts until the previously commanded upshift is complete.
Importance to the EPA or CARB?
NONE!
Complaints of engine hesitation begin to be noticed.
Change the firmware back to the revision for the RX300 series?
Then who picks up the tab for all those failed, within warranty, transaxles?
Eliminate the upshift sequence altogether, or delay the upshift sequence?
No, NO, NO, says the EPA and CARB!
Toyota is in a TOUGH PLACE.
I don't agree with that. It sounds like you're saying the American car companies didn't troubleshoot in advance of delivery...
And I read the Pilot and Accord discussions here. The new model Accord had many problems that seemed to run through the model and the Pilot had (has) some problems that should have been found in advance of delivery.
I won't mention the sludge issue that runs through some Toyotas and Volkswagens.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Not quite what I'm saying.
I'm saying that American car companies, especially in the 1970s and 80s, didn't debug their products prior to releasing them on the market, so the customer got to do the R&D. Honda and Toyota on the other hand, released cars that were, for the most part, "good to go" and didn't not manifest catastophic failures of major components. So the Japanese got a reputation for reliability that was really based on excellent R&D. They "did their homework" whereas American automakers rushed product to market to "keep up".
It's not like that now, but my point was that with the intense competition and intense pressure to conform to regulations, maybe Toyota rushed something (think of US space program issues...)
They has this to say:
"Our test car was sticky on throttle tip-in, causing pause-then jerk-away starts however velvelty the right foot probed..." Later thay said "...under braking background downshifts can sometimes be felt as a mild tug."
proves even a well crafted post from an automotive person (not a reporter) can lead to mis-interpretation, or a questioning of motivation or communication prowness.
its interesting that two other posters here keep taking what is obvious to some, non-genuine shots at the postings of others or the reports of people experiencing and reporting the hesitation here.
i drive a non-DBW 5spd that does not hesitate (or gear hunt). if this hesitation affects everyone's 5spd transmissions to a more or lesser extent - i guess i'm either lucky or quite insensitive to the phenomenon then.
other people with the same DBW-5spd models, from one particular manufacturer - the same as other posters reporting an issue with hesitation, claim that they do not have a hesitation (or gear hunt) problem either. are they just lucky or insensitive also?
a number of people have reported the hesitation issue to an agency considering a further investigation of the issue.
a certain manufacturer steps up and admits to having an issue with hesitation and claims to be actively researching / working to mitigate the issue.
If Car X has a "history of head gasket failure", that means maybe 5 out of 100 cars, not 100 out of 100. A company with 100% failure rate would be out of business (can you say "Yugo"?).
So it is the "norm" to experience completely opposed testimony from two owners of two identical cars.
one would think then, if only a small fraction of vehicles exhibit the issue, then:
a). dealers wouldn't tell people "they all do it"
b). they'd fix the vehicles that exhibited the problem
either they don't understand the problem (which i highly doubt), or perhaps it is large N (which I have trouble believing), or they've made a calculated decision not to correct the out-lyers and to stick with a design that has a characteristic which now they can't completely mitigate with SW for whatever reason.
now i don't understand the solution space, because i don't know the problem space or how it may be mitigated, but i speculate there is a HW component that cannot be corrected by SW. SW is relatively cheap and easy. Its HW which can be time consuming, costly, and even perhaps risky to fix.
on the other hand, there's something attractive about the argument that they achieved some rating on emissions or fuel economy based on their design, and altering will cost them that rating.
in the end, if people really feel their safety is compromised, i think you should be more willing to see it as a safety issue. think stimulus-response and also increased mental load when automation doesn't work as expected. a momentary hesitation you aren't expecting can leave someone mentally reconciling and thus performance impared, regardless of the vehicle's ability to respond!
"system" = (human + vehicle), and input/output transfer process and performance is a complex function of both entities and their interaction.
I'd be particularly interested in knowing what a "non genuine shot" is.
Thanks.
FYI, if what you meant is what I think you meant, I can assure you at least one of those two other posters will quietly go away and leave y'all to your ruminations.
Let's try to keep our comments directed toward ideas, components, cars, machinery, the industy, etc. and not toward other people in this forum. That's a good rule of thumb.
If you heard it from a factory technician who is visiting the dealer, then that IS Toyota talking.
As for customer service responses, I used to train those people, and I can tell you that they don't often know what's going on in the big picture. They are front line troops thrown in to blunt attacks but don't always know the strategy of the generals. Their view is quite limited in scope but they can be helpful within the grasp of their own power to help you.
Message received--loud and clear.
Time for "one of those two other posters" to leave.
It's been nice.
Feel free to disagree or correct me. Others have...
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Why this particular question?
if only we could hook up one of these obc-ii interfaces to a laptop, capture some data, and post it for us all to have a look. not only might we learn something, the extent of the delay period for that vehicle would be captured, and we'd also hopefully get a handle on what the transmission, throttle position etc were doing in the process of coast down and re-application of the gas.
we could eliminate the guessing and theorizing.
surely shifty can find someone in his region to loan him a car for a few hours, right? now if only edmunds would cough up the $120 dollars for the interface and SW (or maybe a good friend with the equipment).
you'd think someone on the edmunds staff would want to start their own sleuthing effort on this don't you?
wait a minute, don't manufacturers advertise here? maybe that isn't possible for shifty to do anything more for us than take the drive and report subjectively on what was experienced.
still, it would be instructional for us to "see" what is going on. objective data could reveal quite a bit for everyone if someone were willing to invest the time and effort and a few dollars.
shifty - i assume you asked around and there are no problems in the edmunds vehicles being used for long-term testing of the make and models which have generally been discussed right?
So there is no guessing of how much delay of DBY if the data is captured.
More advance setup is to hook up to hydraulic relays for the transmission.
Well, one day I will do it ...
So i'd be surprised if Toyota tried to use that as an excuse for the engine sludge.
I think, for the benefit of the posters here, a meeting of "those with", and "those without," would be a major eye opener....perhaps for both.
I definately notice the trans in my 2005 HL shifts differently than my 2003 Highlander (3.0V6, 4 spd automatic, NON DBW), but it is not objectionable to me. If I had to find fault, it would be the VERY slight feeling that has been described here as "slongshot effect" on deceleration. To me, it is not an issue, but as I have 3 recent model Toyotas in the immediate family, I remain interested. (the 3rd is a 2003 Camry 4cyl 4 spd automatic DBW)
Have any of you have tried to specifically contact the Toyota PR person named in the newspaper article? Just a thought.
my thought though - you being in the biz, i figured maybe you call in a favor and could get a hold of a loaner reader to capture some data off a vehicle like his.
seems bkinblk might be receptive to having someone capture some info.
imagine how powerful some quantitative data which we could look at would be in helping everyone understand this issue.
Also - Have a heart. Shifty's already got all the credibility he needs. He also appears to make his living in the car biz - how much longer could that go on if he started writing The Bad News About Toyota. He's a journalist, and I don't mean that in the Geraldo Rivera sort of way.
I propose he remain an the excellent impartial observer and moderator that he is, and not be put into a position to decide which of the two polarized groups here that he'd would side with.
It's happened to me three times already ... I am driving at slow speed, in an intersection, or manuevering in city traffic and when I step on the gas -- nothing -- the car pauses with NO acceleration for a moment and then WHAM, the torque converter or whatever it is in the powertrain turns and then slams power to the drive shafts and the car lurches forward.
I have recently learned that over the last few years Toyota and Lexus had a well documented problem that sounds remarkably similar to what I am experiencing. Needless to say this is disconcerting, and dangerous! I just bought the car less than 10 days ago. No notice was given to me by the dealer that such a problem was preexisting in this car line.
Anybody else having/had similar problems and if so what's been done about it? Has it been fixed? Apparently TSB's (Technical Service Bulletins) addressing this problem were issued in 2003 and 2004 model years. Was the problem ever corrected? Any TSBs in 2005 Lexus cars?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Have you reported this problem to your dealership? If so, what did they say? You may want show them a copy of the Post Gazette article and see if they know anything about it.
Why does it affect just a few and most don't seem to have it?
Nah, hosts have no access to loaner cars but I have dealer friends so maybe I can score something.
Of course, the car I drive is only a "database of one", so I'd rather drive a specific "problem car".
I wouldn't diss the car, just report what I felt when I drove it, without judgment.
I have no idea what this means, but perhaps some of you more technically savy folks can comment on this, and any relation to the "funny"shift feeling some are reporting.
At "low" idle and low road speed the power stearing pump doesn't move enough fluid to provide full assist, especially if your intent was to slow for a sharp/hard turn. Bringing the idle rate up after you enter the turn would result in an initially hard stearing wheel turn pressure.
Obviously no harm in the system anticipating what your intent is.
Sometime while parked simply turn the stearing wheel and see if the idle rate doesn't also jump then.
Same, thing, slightly different effect, when the A/C compressor kicks in at idle. In that case the idle speed doesn't change much, just more fuel and air to provide the additional HP/torque.
Why don't I have it, and all my friends don't have it, but you make out like it's more important than Iraq. What's going on gentlemen, or is this another one of those Wendys finger-in-the-chili episodes?
You really need the first 856 posts on this thread, and few dozen more on Toyota Highlander Problem and Solutions, to know if that is a "simple question". It isn't. Read and learn.
We challenge ideas, we don't name-call. I know you are enthusiastic, but this topic is a touch sensitive for some people stuck with cars they are not happy with.
You've gotten a reasonable response. Read up on the forum, catch up to us, and if you still have a question, by all means ask it.
If you need some help with rules and regs, please e-mail me. In the meantime, join the party but please exhibit courtesy.
Shiftright the Host
Someone on another forum asked what Toyota did to cause the hesitation problem.
Its more actually what they DIDN"T DO!
My 2001 AWD RX300's transaxle always upshifts in certain circumstances. First, if I'm cruising along at highway speeds and fully release the gas pedal. Second, just before coming to a full stop. The latter event is often referred to as the feeling of being bumped from behind just short of coming to a full stop, and the first as the "slingshot effect".
Remember that the lower RPM the engine runs the lower will be the frictional and pumping losses, resulting in lower emissions from burned fuel and last but not least better overall MPG.
JQP: So far, so good. So what's the problem?
What if I suddenly change my mind about coming to a full stop (the point at which my RX would normally downshift into 1st) and decide to ZOOM forward? Or in the highway coastdown mode I simply reapply gas pedal pressure?
JQP: What could be wrong with that?
Well, nothing, unless I happen to instigate the change at about the same time, instant, the transaxle begins the initial upshift sequence.
JQP: So, why can't the upshift be cancelled or over-ridden so the transaxle can quickly respond to my new "command".
That's actually what my 2001 AWD RX300 seems to do. No hesitation, it just downshifts and goes ZOOM!
JQP: There has to be more to the story, so what's wrong with the Sienna?
Trust me, we'll get to that.
In the meantime here's a bit more of my RX300 story.
The transaxles in the RX300 series seem to be failing somewhat prematurely, some just inside the warranty period and some beyond.
My own RX300 has the trailer towing package, extra transaxle fluid cooler in front of the passenger side front wheelwell. I removed the trailer hitch the week I purchased the vehicle, new, directly from Bellevue Lexus. The vehicle has been out on the road during fairly severe winter weather, but has never carried more than 4 passengers. Basically has never seen anything close to what would be considered ROUGH service.
And my owners manual has no requirement for transaxle fluid flush, drain, or replenishment for the life of the vehicle. I spoke to the service manager at Lexus of Bellevue just last week who informed me that is still the factory's position. He said they recommend inspections of fluid condition at each 30,000 mile interval but no changeout unless the inspection indicates a need.
At 38,000 miles, mid-2004, my inspection of the ATF in my RX300 definitely indicated a need. So I drained and replenished the ATF.
At 45,000 miles, ~3 weeks ago, the ATF again looked dirty and smelled burned. Fiirst I just repeated the procedure of last year, 4 qts out, 4 qts in. Within a week my ATF looked as dirty as before. This time, via some advice from a post herein, I drained the diff'l and dropped and cleaned the sump pan. Used 5 qts this time for refill. So far so good, a week later and the new fluid is still looking clear.
JQP: So what, FACTUALLY, does the above tell us?
Something within the transaxle is degrading too rapidly, moreso that projected by the factory, and that is resulting in contamination of the ATF to such a high level that it cannot perform its core function as a simple hydraulic fluid.
JQP: What, pray tell?
I really don't know, don't have any idea. I initially guessed that the heat from the fluid within the VC, Viscous Clutch, in the nearby PTO, Power Take Off, was overheating the ATF.
But now I realize that doesn't account for the high level of contamination I'm seeing in the ATF. Additionally I have just recently learned that the PTO and VC run in 80 Wt gear oil, not in the ATF.
JQP: And this has what to do with the Sienna??
I only have a supposition, surmise.
In my RX300 when the previously commanded upshift is cancelled, or over-ridden with a downshift, a servere downshift at that, the transaxle somehow ends locked briefy in two gear ratios simultaneously, say for only a few tens of milliseconds. But over time, 40,000 miles, the additional wear of the clutch frictional surfaces unduly contaminates the ATF. So, the contamination of the ATF could accelerate the failure of these transaxles, and even if the ATF is changed out often enough to not be a factor in the early failures the additional clutch wear might be.
JQP: And how does the Sienna play into this??
The Toyota and Lexus engineers eventually came to realize the core causative factors of the RX300 series permature transaxle failures and then came up with the simpliest, less expensive, and overall most viable solution absent going to the EPA and CARB hat in hand.
Convert the vehicles to DBW so that the engine and transaxle ECU could PREVENT the engine from responding to the driver's "command" if it interfered with the shift sequencing of the transmission
What, in your opinion, is the reason some claim to feel no hesitation (tinkerbell2) and others find it severe enough to trade in and take a loss on their vehicle (dla2)? You have presented a scenario that would explain why you would not feel the hesitation every time you slowed then suddenly accelerated, but not the "why some and not all?" questions.
Have sent in arbitration paperwork for hesitation on my 05 Camry V6 LE.
BTW, I’ve been following these forums since buying the car and am aware of the history and all issues involved.
My specific complaint lag in response to accelerator input, followed by abrupt acceleration, most noticeable under 10mph. I also notice less definable erratic shifting abnormalities at all speeds that just make driving the car un-enjoyable.
Noticed it shortly after buying the car in late Sep 04, but believed I would get used to it, or the car would “learn” my driving habits.
After 1700 miles I was getting frustrated and took it in. Told that’s normal, give it a few more months to learn you driving habits. Knew I was being fed a line.
Gave it a while longer, complained again at about 3500 miles, same official answer, but tech confided privately that he’d had many complaints, and believed Toyota was working on a fix.
Then I opened up a complaint with Toyota, was scheduled to drive the car with the local service manager. Same answer - that’s normal.
Called Toyota back, said I wasn’t happy with answer, next step was to schedule a drive with a regional rep. Before the drive was scheduled, was called back by local service manager, said that field engineer instructed him to change the transmission. No, I didn’t believe it either, and didn’t believe that it would fix the problem but they’re the experts.
Invoice showed both a transmission change and reprogram of the ECU. That was in early March and over 5000 miles. Was able to replicate hesitation before leaving the premises.
Gave it a week to be fair, called local service manager back - said he’d confer with field engineer. Called back and said they had a brand new program that would fix it. So in late March and about 6000 miles, they reprogrammed ECU. Was able to replicate hesitation before leaving the premises.
Gave it a week to be fair, called local service manager back - said that’s just the way the Camry drives, sorry, can’t do anything else.
Called Toyota, was offered to start arbitration process, have sent in paperwork.
Now looking for advice on how to win this thing and not lose several thousand dollars by trading it in.
Thanks in advance,
Ski