Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)

Mr_Shiftright

Sounds like you have the right stuff already to do well in arbitration.

Get well organized, have all your documents in order, stay calm and DON'T make any claims you can't back up (i.e., "I practically killed myself!" or "my wife and family is afraid to step inside the car"). Save that for the stage.

Your post here sounds like a great "method"...step by step chronology, repeated failure of the dealer to correct the problem, car no fun to drive anymore, other cars you've driven don't do this (other makes), etc.

Hard to say about losing money at this point...

wwest

take along a copy of the August 2003 TSB, it lays out in exacting statements the three circumstances where folks seem to be encountering the engine hesitation. I know it only applies to the ES series, but still, it just might help.

Someone, here maybe, said that their service department tried to apply the ES TSB "flash" update to their xxxx. It didn't work, but it might be helpful being able to go into arbitration with the name of the service person who at least made the attempt.

user777

some quantitative, objective, real-time data pulled off the obd-ii interface, plotted up in MATLAB or EXCEL might be handy to have with you.

josh5

I've done some research on behalf of this forum, in addition to what already exists. To the best of my resources, this is what I found regarding Toyota's position on the hesitation.

I have been in contact with a Lexus factory rep for some time now. When news hit this forum of the ES TSB coming out, I confirmed that it was coming out and posted. But the factory rep said it was supposed to come out in May, not April. Now believe me, if you've read my posts, you know I have done due diligence in trying to get the hesitation fixed. When post #788 provided a link to the TSB, my heart was racing with hope.

I have now confirmed that the TSB from the link on post #788 is a fake...at least that's what Lexus says. It is very unclear who found this TSB, and where it originated. It is not on any official site that I could find.

Also, the REAL TSB to address hesitation in the ES will NOT be coming out in May now. According to Lexus, it will be August at the earliest, and December at the latest. Originally they said May, so December may change.

This is all I know. I don't have it in writing. But as always, I am passing along all the information I have at hand. If Lexus is giving me false information, and this all proves to be untrue, I apologize.

Mr_Shiftright

That TSB info was from the ace reporter we were talking about. But of course he could have been led down the garden path by Toyota, or he could have puffed it up to make himself look important----who knows?

Important thing is that it doesn't seem to be true, if in fact you've done your homework like you seem to have done.

bkinblk

I guess they are aware of the problem and they (Toyota-Lexus) are working on a fix. Meanwhile, those of us with the problem have to keep the faith or bail out and take a loss. I would like to believe that the manufacturer is aware of this forum, would like to resolve the issue and have us go away. We will have 1000 posts very soon. I hope Toyota realizes there is legitimacy with our complaints and concerns. If Toyota loses 1% market share, they lose hundreds of millions. Anyone listening?

jbollt

Actually, bkinblk mentioned the TSB he had seen posted in the Lexus ES300 forum (post # 4862) by poster named "future1". I put the link in my post #788 for convience to this forum. While it appears to be "legit" I suppose it's possible that anyone with a word processor program could have edited it, but why?

Didn't a poster here (bkinblk post #841) recently say they had taken their Camry to a shop foreman at Lexus to see if the new upgrade could work on the Camry? Don't remember any comments that the TSB was non-existant, just that the code wouldn't work on the Camry.

Jeff

bkinblk

Yes, it was me. When I visited the Lexus dealer, we tried to reprogram my Camry with Lexus codes, but they were not compatible. Also, it showed my car had the most recent update available. He also showed me many TSB's on his computer, that showed ECU reprograms which he said made 50% of the people happy, He had recently done a new reprogram on a Lexus ES-330, but hadn't heard from the owner.

tinkerbell2

Well I took your advice and went back to the beginning of topic to learn what's being learned re hesitation. I now know there are 11 posters who have put over 90% of posts in this topic. There is a very closed group posting here.
That is to say, 805 posts out of 875 are by the same 11 people. The rest are posts one or two times by different people who came into the discussion and didn't stay.
There are 22 posts saying they don't have any hesitation, and 10 who say they do.
All but three of the ten say their hesitation is momentary. The other three say theirs is severe one says three seconds.
One person said they returned their car through arbitration, and two say they are going to try. There are three separate argument in the topic about it being a safety hazard, with nothing really being settled in any of them. There are about 25 different theories about what may be the cause of hesitation.
So I really haven't learned a whole lot other than it's quite an active discussion mostly by 11 posters, and not much in the way of conclusions has been reached among them.
I still have no idea why hesitation is present for some and not others like me who don't have it. If it was a designed in problem, then you would thing everyone would have it. More importantly, there would be a whole lot more than 11 people talking about it. So what gives?

wwest

is everything.

There are three circumstances related in the TSB of August 2003. All three seem to be consistent with at least one aspect of each of the various posts of engine hesitation here at Edmunds.

1. How often does any of us come up to a traffic light and just barely before coming to a full and complete stop the light changes to green and we then hesitate, dither (on and off, should I or shouldn't I?) the throttle, and then decide to go.

And even when we do have these events "line up", how often might we apply the gas pedal just at the very instant the transmission ECU commands an upshift to conserve fuel, reduce emissions, and prevent engine compression braking on the off chance the roadbed is slippery?

I have said, and I have absolutely no doubt that I can prove, these transmissions ALWAYS upshift during coastdown.

Or any simulier circumstance, not just a changing traffic light.

bkinblk

wwest- o.k. probably true. Your point is.........?

bkinblk

Tink- Welcome #12. As with any cause in life, there are only a few who are passionate enough to step up and take a position. "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore". I am glad you don't have any issues with your car, but I am facinated that you find this forum so irrelevant. You should continue your investigation on the hesitation issue by researching other Lexus and Toyota forums and car reviews. Furthermore, it is a problem that is ackowledged by Toyota-Lexus. You will find this has been an issue dating back to 2002. Today, as a matter of fact, I looked at a forum on Autobytel where Lexus owners (many) were talking about the aggravation of driving a car whose transmission did not meet their expectations. Believe me, I have a lot better things to do than waste time on any forum, but I have found that if there is an answer to this problem, it most probably will be discovered and shared on this forum before it is shared anywhere else.

scoti1

wwest, what you describe explains why an individual car may hesitate some of the time but not all the time. However, those with the most severe symptoms (i.e., a very noticeable hesitation) seem to feel it every time that they go from a coast to a sudden acceleration. Your theories sound good to me because you know more about this than I do, but can you explain, given your theory, why someone would consistently have hesitation? - that means that they have these events line up every time...

scoti1

I am erasing my post -- I thought I found another article to corroborate the one in the Pittsburgh paper, but it turns out it was just a link to that same article. Sorry for wasting space.

tinkerbell2

By the tone of your answer I gather you don't appreciate me being here. That's unfortunate, but I don't feel I must make an apology for it. I did not say this topic was irrelevant and I don't feel that way either. I do get the impression it is a closed discussion with a select few participating and your answer just adds to that.
Please try to understand my viewpoint. I was directed to go here by reading other topics such as RX 330 where it was stated the discussion on hesitation was here. I own an RX330 and I am interested in finding out about it. I don't want it happening to me. I am genuinely interested in finding out why it only affects a few rather than all. I find that very odd and I wonder why you don't spend time looking there before searching out a root cause. You might find there's more relevant information by going down that road before spending all your time chasing theories.
Maybe being mad as hell is clouding your good judgement?
One more thing. I do not intend to become number 12. If you and your associates don't wish to answer my question, just say so. I won't bother you any more. Just don't editorialize about it.

scoti1

I have asked the same question. It hasn't been answered for me, either, but I am not in a snit about it. I will continue to be polite and hope the answer is forthcoming as we learn more.

bkinblk

Tinkerbell2- No offense intended. Welcome. I have only been on this forum since late March. The only reason I became active was because I knew there was something "wrong" with my transmission on the drive from the dealership to my office. Since then, I have been determined to get to the truth of the matter. Toyota's response has been "they all do that," and "it's a characteristic of the DBW -5-speed transmission." After owning over 30 cars and trucks, I feel that response is unacceptable. Since I am married to this car for the remaining 34 months of the three year lease, and since the car is so un-enjoyable to drive, I want to be one of the first to bring it in for the mysterious and much anticipated "fix" if there is one. I think having one more "investigator" on this forum is of great benefit, #12, ha, ha.

Mr_Shiftright

I don't think a "design problem" needs a 100% failure rate to be legitimate. I can't think of any factory defect from the past on any car with a 100% failure rate. A rate of 10% would be more than enough to qualify as a real problem in a car.

user777

it might be a mistake to assume that only 11+70 = 85 posters have visited the forum, and 70 chose not to "stay". you and i don't know how many people read the forum nor return on a frequent basis. we also shouldn't assume each person should feel obligated to make a post because they are following the discussion.

you state: "if it were a designed in problem, then you would thin(k) everyone would have it".

well a design can have a number of features to make it fault-tolerant (or not). it's possible a manufacturing defect, a part performing out-of-spec, or mis-assembly causes the system to exhibit this characteristic.

why are some people experiencing vehicle stability control issues? why are some people experiencing transmissions failing to shift? why are some vehicles shutting down at highway speed? why do some vehicles require their owners to turn the system off and back on to reset them?

(i'm not speaking about any single manufacturer or vehicle line here).

our vehicles are getting rather complicated and feature rich. apparently they are becomming more difficult for owners to understand and operate, dealers to fix, and manufacturers to develop, test, field and support.

the matter is a bit wider than engine hesitation, but we have to start somewhere.

join us. stay. be assimilated.

legendman

"I have been determined to get to the truth of the matter. Toyota's response has been "they all do that," and "it's a characteristic of the DBW -5-speed transmission."

Exactly, which is no excuse at all.

"After owning over 30 cars and trucks, I feel that response is unacceptable"

So do I. I agree completely. I have been driving cars for over 35 years and I KNOW when there is a problem, and indeed there is one, and it's potentially quite serious. By the way, it's happened to me 3 times in the span of about ten days.

A few dealers have honestly and candidly admitted to me that Toyota/Lexus knows all about the problem, followed by their adding that to-date, there has been no fix, no service campaign, no notice to customers, no nothing. (Some dealers have not been so honest)

It's the dirty little secret that Lexus doesn't want to talk about and hopes will go away. Well, it's not going away, and if they wait like Ford did, they are going to end up with a fiery crash that incinerates a family and then watch Lexus' star come crashing down to earth.

The Japanese tend to be a very proud people who have, over the years, consistently demonstrated an aversion to "losing face". I say better to do the right thing now, face the music and do the right thing; than do the Ford Pinto/Ford Explorer/Firestone/Congressional hearings thing -- later.

dla2

I have documented my arbitration along with my opinion on the process in earlier posts. basically my arbitrator looked at the following 3 things:

1. Loss of value.
2. effect on drivability
3. safety

I don't see that the value of the camry has been effected (yet) so I would focus on 2 and 3 with 2 being your best shot.

tinkerbell2

I appreciate the invitation to participate in this discussion, but I'm afraid I must respectfully decline. I don't mean to cast any aspersions on many contributors who are earnest and honest in this discussion, BUT, (always a 'but' doncha know) I see some scary stuff going on at the same time which I get concerned about.
When comments are made like 'dirty little secret', and 'congressional investigations', and 'Lexus star will come crashing down', or that 'families will be incinerated', and so on, that tells me there are some posters who are intent on doing serious harm to an objective discussion.
When I see posts to participate in websites like that 'Toyota Designflaw' site, this tells me that doing harm is being actively promoted here.
When I see posters who try to adopt a neutral ground get intentionally discouraged by others, I don't think there is any room for people like me, and it won't be long when I get told to leave. I alreadly been informed if you don't have a problem then this isn't the right place for you.
I am also concerned about things like the faked Lexus TSB which became the topic of much discussion before it was disclosed as a fake. This to me says even more about somebody's intentions to do harm.
So thanks anyway. I just don't have a good feeling about the way things are going. Good luck to those who are making the sincere effort.

jbollt

tinkerbell2...You said "I am also concerned about things like the faked Lexus TSB which became the topic of much discussion before it was disclosed as a fake."

I'm not sure that we as a group have concluded that it is a fake. There was some initial enthusiasm that it was "the fix", and then some let-down that it was just an update to an old TSB (adding the later models Lexus ES's to the TSB), but I personaly can't recall anyone confirming it is fake. In fact, bkinblk stated he has visited with a shop forman at a Lexus dealer and seems to indicate that the "updated TSB" exists, it's just not compatible with his Camry. BTW, it would make sense that the Lexus code isn't compatible with the Toyoya, as Lexus would have more and different things being controlled by the ECU, memory seats, as one example.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that we have totally determined that the TSB is fake. I encourage you to stay involved, as I am. I have no obvious hesitation in my 2005 Highlander, but remain here as I am interested in keeping informed on my vehicle.

My hope is that my contributions to this forum are considered positive

Mr_Shiftright

I think loss of value is a better argument than safety, since the bad PR is readily demonstrable to the arbitrator with a few print-outs but the safety claim is specious.

Drivability is, I agree, your best shot, also demonstrable by test drive or print-outs.

I suppose you could take the arbitrator out and crash into something, but.....

bkinblk

On my way to work this morning, I was slowing down to about 10mph at a red light. It then turned green, and I stepped on the gas. No immediate response from the gas pedal, then jerk, off I went. This is normal, right?

Mr_Shiftright

Were you in overdrive at the time? If so, that 's not a good idea. Try to drive in 4th in the city and see how it works out. That's what you are supposed to do anyway, regardless of the type of car you drive.

But IF....IF...the car were in 5th gear OD at 10 mph and you stomped on it and it didn't go anywhere, yeah, I'd say that was normal.

So try staying out of OD in urban traffic and let us know how the car behaves.

bkinblk

I think I was in OD. In my 2000, it didn't make any difference, it just downshifted unnoticeably. In the Toyota owners manual, they suggest you always drive with the OD on. This week I will drive around town with the OD off, and report back.

user777

shifty - these systems aren't designed for the common folk to be shifting out of drive under normal circumstances are they? my 5spd AT (different manufacturer, and not DBW) lets me cost down and when i ask for power, i get it without delay and without a bump from behind feeling. supposidly, other people with the same vehicle as the poster don't have the hesitation or the bump. how can it be normal, and how can you be prescribing driving in 4? i admit that every time you mention this, i get lost.

wwest

Personally I have little doubt that the referenced TSB is real and I think anyone saying it is fake should be asked to prove it. And don't forget, it coinsides, verifies, the statement the Toyota rep made to the Post reporter.

Unless that was a fake Toyota rep also.

bkinblk

wwest- that's a great point. Let's keep hope alive.

bkinblk

I thought it would be interesting to find out if all the posters that have problems have Japanese manufactured (V.I.N. begins with a J), or American manufactured cars (V.I.N. begins with a 4). Mine is an American made.

user777

that's too bad. some people's approach and communication style are more refined or metered than others. if anyone was overtly trying to run you off, then I think one of the hosts would chime in. if you pull isolated phraseology from posts and conclude the group is being steered by conspiracy advocates or radicalists, then i might understand your hesitation to participate, but i highly doubt anyone is purposefully trying to bring down any specific manufacturer(s) by posting here.

i hope you realized the "be assimilated" comment (i.e. if one stays long enough everyone will be of similar opinion) was a joke. i doubt that's going to happen.

nc_scott

I'm sorry, but 80% of the time I'm on the highway to and from work and when I get off at my exit, there's a traffic light. Am I expected to shift out of OD every time I leave the highway? That simply doesn't make sense and shouldn't be "expected" of drivers to do, even if they're driving around town off and on. I know I'd forget to switch the OD back on when I get to a high cruising speed which would then do what to my transmission? Damage? Excessive wear and tear?

My experience is identical to that one just described. Coasting to a red light, it changes before you come to a complete stop and you expect a response when you, the driver ask for acceleration, yet there is a lag, you instinctively press a little harder and then the "jerk" response. I don't find it so annoying that I'm looking to sell my '05 Solara, however it is quite annoying when you're driving around a parking lot at the mall between 5 and 15mph and experience it around every turn.

jbollt

I'm sorry Shifty, I agree with nc scott...While it might be a test to see if the OD is causing the hesitation, it is unreasonible IMHO to ask drivers to change what gear they use in a modern automatic trans. (unless, perhaps we are talking about mountain driving). The Owners manual for my '05 Highlander says "Always drive your vehicle with the overdrive on for better fuel economy and quieter driving."

nc scott..please explain what you are experiencing at 5-15mph in a mall parking lot. It was my understanding that the hesitation came on a rather substantial application of the gas pedal....perhaps I am wrong.

nc_scott

jbollt - It's the similar situation, slow driving, going around a turn in a parking lot, simply giving it a little gas when coming out of the curve/turn, and there's a lag. It's less pronounced, but it's there.

Fortunately I haven't had the issues others are reporting with a lag/hesistation at higher speeds merging onto highways or changing lanes after coasting a little and wanting to re-accelerate.

All of my cases are between 5 and 15mph and are of the nuisance variety. But after spending 32k on a supposed semi-luxury vehicle I'd expect better handling. I waited for Toyota to come back out with the Solara convertible before buying one and this is the thanks I get. ;-)

Oh, and I don't have the OD button that for instance my 97 Celica had. The 05 Solara has the option for manual gear shifting, but not OD button.

jbollt

"Oh, and I don't have the OD button that for instance my 97 Celica had. The 05 Solara has the option for manual gear shifting, but not OD button."

So this vehicle may have a different transmission, than the standard Toyota/Lexus 3.3L DBW 5 speed, or it may have different software.

edit: The Toyota website calls the trans in the Solara a "5-speed electronically controlled sequential automatic overdrive with intelligence (ECT-i)"

Lexus says this about the RX "Five-speed automatic Electronically Controlled Transmission (ECT). Dual shift programs, engine/transmission networking, flex-lockup torque converter, sequential-shift automatic transmission (with available Four-Wheel Air Suspension)"

I couldn't find any reference to sequential in the ES series Lexus

scoti1

I don't doubt that TSB is real, either. I just don't think it is the one, The Fix we are all hoping for. It sounded like that was what the PR man was referring to in the quote in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette article -- that quote sounds like a news release for a new TSB that covers software upgrades in all 5-speed automatics in 2002 - 2005 MYs -- it even says it will be covered for 8 yrs under the Federal Emissions warranty - pretty specific. The TSB we were provided a link to coincidentally has a recent date on it, but appears to be an update of an ES300 bulletin to apply to ES330s -- it doesn't fit what was described in the article.

What happened? Could be that Don Hammond (the article author) misunderstood what the PR guy was saying or the PR guy may have been deliberately misleading. There is still the option that he is a lousy reporter, but I wouldn't base that on the one editorial mistake (that only Shifty caught initially, BTW).

bkinblk

I back up nc_scott completely. He describes exactly what happens during slow speeds. When I pull in my son's school parking lot, I slow to an idle while slightly depressing the pedal, the car revs to 2000 rpm, then shifts into second. If I let off the pedal completely, then step on it again, there is a noticable jerk, then the process starts all over.

jbollt

"I slow to an idle while slightly depressing the pedal, the car revs to 2000 rpm, then shifts into second. If I let off the pedal completely, then step on it again, there is a noticable jerk,"

Well, I guess I am lucky, because I DEFINATELY don't have this condition.

nc_scott

Very interesting jbollt - so with the slight variations in the transmissions, it appears there are variations of the "issues" being reported. Again, I feel very fortunate to not have the experiences others are at higher speeds. That to me would be well beyond the "nuisance" factor I'm living with.

josh5

wwest,

I asked Lexus to acknowledge the ES April 2005 TSB. I showed it to them, and they said it was not generated by them, that it was a fake. I think that proving it's a fake is less important than proving it's real.

That is why we're here. No one has proven that the TSB is real, and Lexus backs it up that it's not. It does not come from an official source or site. Believe me, I wish it was real. The burden of proof lies on authenticating that document. If it's not authenticated, that proves it's a fake. So there you have it.

If it's real, someone please prove it. That would make my day, because then I could go to my Lexus contact with evidence that contradicts their statement to me...that I passed along to this forum.

jbollt

josh5, I fail to see why someone would create a fake TSB. What benefit would it be? I wonder if your Lexus dealer is just unaware of it yet.

I bet we have all seen incidents where a dealer denied the existance of a TSB, only later to have it (suprisingly) appear.

wwest

NOT!

How is it then, that a Lexus service person tried to apply the TSB "flash" firmware reprogram procedure from this actual TSB to another vehicle but failed?

Unless I misread the earlier post on this matter or the poster was trying to mislead.

I have spoken to many Toyota and Lexus sales and service persons over the past year or so. Some of them willingly admit and discuss the problem and others tell me they never heard of it.

When I first learned of several C-best options, here on the internet, that could be applied to my 2001 AWD RX300's climate control system the service manager at Bellevue Lexus denied that they existed. It was only after I printed the post and took it in to show them that they went searching through several offices and desk drawers and finally found a copy of ALL of the C-best options for my car. But what was important to me was that they had C-best option listings of a later date/revision than the one we applied that did not include all of the available c-best options, and by a wide margin yet.

Why does Lexus (and Toyota??) continue to HIDE these c-best option lists from their consumers??

wwest

I suspect that if we rigged up a system that when the gas pedal position was fully released the "mod" lied to the engine ECU and told it the gas pedal was partially depressed but at the same time opened the power source to the actual throttle servomotor so it remained fully closed the ECU would NOT go into the coastdown upshift sequence and now when the gas pedal is actually depressed and we pass the "true" gas pedal position to the ECU and simultaneously restore the servomotor power the hesitation symptom would be eliminated.

Anyone on the eastside of the Seattle area that is DEFINITELY experiencing the hesitation symptom want to give it a try??

Detect that the gas pedal is at "idle", wait for the throttle servomotor to fully close the throttle and then open the throttle servomotor power source while "feeding" the engine ECU with a false gas pedal "depressed" position sinal until such time as the gas pedal is again, in actuality, depressed.

scoti1

I already mentioned my experience with dealerships and TSBs --similar to wwest's.

I just checked NHTSA and Alldata lists for TSBs and there is still nothing listed for the 03 and 04 ES 330's, but I did find the Aug. 03 TSB referenced (the one that was supposedly updated) on the Alldata site:

TC004-03R AUG 03 A/T - Poor Shift Quality

I would expect their to be some delay (or how about lag or hesitation, LOL) between the issuance of a TSB and when it appears in NHTSA and Alldata lists. I don't think it means much that nothing is listed there. Just something more to ponder.

bkinblk

I was the one who had a shop foreman with Lexus try to reprogram the most recent Lexus code into my Camry ( I did not notice the date). They were incompatible. I did not show him a copy of the so called "fake" April 1, 2005 TSB revision. I think I'll go back today and show it to him and see what he says. Meanwhile, because his computer could pull up the most recent Toyota TSB's and reprogramming codes, he showed me that my car (manufactured in Feb. 05 )already had the most recent program. That is not to say that there isn't a "fix" (as the Toyota PR rep stated) in the near future.

scoti1

I posted the following in the ES300 forum - it is in reply to the post that included the link to the TSB being discussed here. I will wait and see what Future1 replies. Sounded like he was going to take it to his dealership (I think Future1 has participated in this discussion, too.):

#4893 of 4893 Re: Transmission Fix [future1] by scoti1 Apr 25, 2005 (4:42 pm)
Bookmark | Reply | Edit | Delete

Future1, can you provide a little more info on that TSB? We have been debating it in the Engine Hesitation forum and could use some input from you.

We cannot find this April '05 update of the TSB listed on any of the usual sources (NHTSA, Alldata). One of the posters took a printout to his dealership and was told it was a fake. Another person was told that his '05 model vehicle already had the most recent update performed. I am thinking that maybe this is too new to have reached the dealerships. Have you had any luck getting the work performed? Can you share where you obtained the TSB?

wwest

of "Lexus" and "TC004-03"..

Turned up several posts of circa August 2003 wherein owners had the TSB applied, but no good results.

Another search:

august+2003+tsb+lexus+ hesitation

indicates this TSB is far from "fake".

jbollt

..if the dealerships that deny that a new TSB exists are looking up the TSB, seeing that the date is Aug 4, 2003, and not looking any further on the actual TSB. The link shows that it is dated Aug 2003, and in a red box, it says "REVISION NOTICE April 1, 2005." The Aug 2003 date is in bigger font than the Revision date, and it IS the same TSB #.

bkinblk

It might be the same TSB, but the April 1, 2005 revision shows new calibration I.D's. Also, just to claify, I own a Camry with the most recent calibration available. If the Lexus TSB revision dated April 1, 2005 and has new calibrations for the newer models of Lexus, can Toyota be far behind ? The Toyota PR guy said the new calibrations would start with Lexus, then Toyota would follow shortly thereafter.
I think it is still too soon to tell. Has anyone on the Lexus forum had the most recent upgrade available?