I can't find the time to go back and re-read this entire Forum, so I'll just ask you - what vehicles do you / did you drive? Do you / did you have this hesitation problem?
First of all, we don't know for certain that there have been no accidents attributed to the DBW with 5-speed set -up. All I know is instead of being in total control of the car (as in the past), this -set up often decides what to do for you. There is an inherent and potential danger in the configuraton of this system. Also, the NHTSA did determine that the throttle (DBW) seemed satisfactory, They are further investigating the hesitation problem because of the thousands of complaints that some on this forum deem "imaginary." Toyota, apparantly is moving forward to correct the problem (because they have determined that there is a problem). Let's hope it is corrected and the posters on this forum will move to another because there will be no need to further discuss the matter.
bkinblk, I agree with you 100% on your post #702 (although I think pcorbs_dc may be an innocent bystander).
The big message in the new P-G article is that Toyota has come up with some sort of software upgrade. Yet the discussion has been fixated on editting the author, dissing the author, complaining about how much this article is being promoted, discussing NHTSA's involvement or lack of involvement, complaining about me, LOL, but nothing about the main part -- the software upgrade. I would certainly like to hear more from wwest and user777, on their thoughts on the meat of the article. Yes, the article is being discussed to death, but for all the wrong reasons.
Interesting that the fix is being covered under the Federal Emissions Warranty...
"Toyota and Lexus owners who decide to try the latest computer upgrade should know that the repair work will be covered under the cars' federal emissions warranty for eight years or 80,000 miles from the original sales date, so it should be free for all but the highest mileage cars, Hoyt said.
"The job takes about an hour, but a vehicle may have to be left longer than that, depending on the dealership's work schedule," he said."
All this attention on a sentence in a newspaper article is a diversion away from the real issue.
It's an approach politicians have mastered well, including the guy in the White House.
Some people have a real problem and now Toyota is trying AGAIN to fix it with new software. I don't want it. My c2005 is sometimes jerky at very low speeds, but it's not a deal breaker or unsafe situation for me. I know other folks would probably like to have my "problem" instead of their's.
Interested to hear from folks who get the new fix. And I'm glad the reporter gave a "voice" to frustrated car owners.
When I took my Camry to a very well respected shop forman that I happen to know, we went on a road test together. He drove while I held a box that was plugged in under the right side of the the driver-side dash. The box showed every upshift and downshift the trans made. (very quick to upshift, and very slow to downshift). My friend agreed that the car had some very odd shift patterns and that he had received many complaints regarding this. He went on to say that this computer software configuration was designed to lessen gross polluter potential and conform to the Ultra Low Vehicle Emission standards. He said that Toyota could definately reconfigure the software (as they did in the Sienna), but it might take time because of the red tape with the EPA. Also, Toyota would only do this if they were backed into a corner by unsatisfied owners. Well, that was only two weeks ago, and look what's happening now!
2005 Avalon XLS. Beautiful automobile. I traded a 2000 Avalon XLS with over 200,000 miles at time of trade (Feb this yr.). The old one never gave me a minute of trouble and was still running and looking great. They sold it to a friend and he loves it. There is nothing better on the market for the price than a Toyota no matter which model you pick. The new Avalon feels a little bit different because of the 5 speed auto, but it is always smooth and responds if and when I want it to.It certainly has more pep than the old one--more than you need really. As far as I'm concerned there is no problem with these cars unless you want to really be picky about the slightly different feel. I think that may be a big part of what is going on here. I also don't think any of the discussions by you guys who are beating this to death here had anything to do with *backing Toyota into a corner* about this issue. That is a little too much to swallow. By Tthe way, my brother bought an Acura last fall with a 5 speed and I can't tell any difference between it and my Avalon in the way the transmission operates. Even my brother admitsthe quality-fit and finish and interior- of the Avalon is much better though. It is also a quieter ride, although the old one was pretty quiet too.
One important conclusion that can be drawn from these discussions is that the degree of hesitation can be quite variable. It isn't just a perception problem or a sensitivity issue, although I am sure that once one is aware of the problem, they are much more sensitive to it when it occurs. From what I am reading, it truly can range from being hardly noticeable to quite apparent (and dangerous).
dla2, are you still around? You stated that if anyone drove your car, they would notice the hesitation, it was that bad (a deal killer for you since you ended up trading it in). I can't remember if you said you had driven other Toyota/Lexus' with the V-6 5-speed, but if you did, did you notice hesitation in those? Was it more or less than what you felt in your own car? just curious.
Well, then - I can't understand how you or anyone can comment on how irritating or dangerous this issue is, without having experienced the problem that they are complaining about.
I can appreciate defending an innocent manufacturer against slander and bashing. Toyota has already admitted that there's something that they're trying to fix. Can't you imagine someone else's transmission, spanning now 4 models years, having different firmware / software, and perhaps different hardware as well, that makes their behave MUCH differently? He fact that many people have taken the time to initiate lemon law arbitration over this thing tells me something. Add to this that many cars have been taken to dealers and tested - with Toyota footing the bill - as posted in this forum, tells me that some Toyota dealers see something as well. And now the fact that Toyota has taken the time to re-engineer a fix, and make announcements about it, tells me that Toyota sees something as well.
I wouldn't ever assume that my experience with my vehicle was going to be the same experience for other people with their vehicle, built in different facilities, at different times, with different firmware and software. That's kind of like saying that people that complain about their (insert Dell, Gateway, Compaq, or whatever here) computer with Windows ME are nuts because my same-brand computer with Windows 98 seems fine. Or that mine with XP SP2 is fine - why are you complaining about your Windows ME?
scoti1 wrote: would certainly like to hear more from wwest and user777, on their thoughts on the meat of the article i don't think i can add much re: the article. we could pull out of the article and focus on what we wanted, depending on our viewpoint.
but hey, i "flunked" the host, and my edmunds account is still active. shifty i respect and thank you for allowing people of differing knowlege, opinion, experience, interest etc, express themselves in a civil manner and exchange information when that becomes available. we are very fortunate that edmunds has these discussion forums.
i'm interested in the specifics of the SW upgrade. since the manufacturer isn't likely to disclose the specifics, if i owned one of these vehicles with significant hesitation, i'd probably want to instrument the vehicle with an OBD reader before the fix to capture the real-time data associated with the phenomenon a number of times (i presume that some owners can re-create it).
then, post-fix, i'd want to re-instrument the vehicle and capture data under similar conditions to see if it is possible to indirectly determine how they mitigated it. it would provide me with a quantitative / objective basis for assessing the amount of improvement and provide me with additional information useful in discussing the phenomenon with the dealership or other manufacturer representatives as required.
ecotrklvr- You really are the voice of reason- I enjoy your posts. Now for the benefit of all Forum posters, please follow me on a visualization/self actualization journey through the labyrinth of our minds. First, assume the lotus position, and repeat after me (eyes closed and breathing through your abdomen). Hmmmmmmmm, Hmmmmmm , Hmmmmm---There is no jerky shifting, Hmmmmm, Hmmmmm, Hmmmmm--There is no hesitation. Hmmmmm, Hmmmmm, Hmmmmm---kraft was right all along. Good class!! Now stand up and stretch. Lean over and grab your ankles and release all your built up tension. Good, good. Stand up again and smile. Oh, what a feeling! Class dismissed.
I think the point of conciliation among all points of view is that in solving ANY problem one has to learn to separate the useful information from the usless, wrong, bad, confusing, diversionary, etc. information.
It is easy to enrage the mob on any subject, and journalists are very good at this--unfortunately, it's not their problem to solve, and many of them (certainly not all) will shovel anything out at us to get our attention and feather their own nests.
In the article in question, the point about the new software is useful. The NHTSA comments are pure drivel: To quote"
"That probe was separate from another potential investigation that the NHTSA, citing a high volume of e-mails and telephone calls prompted by stories in the Post-Gazette early this year, said it may undertake after looking further into the matter."
What if you brought a bad cell phone into my store and I told you that "now that I am prompted by stories I've read about this product, I may undertake another look at your defective product after I look further into the matter".
Do you have that "empty bag" feeling? I do reading stuff like that.
But the new software, that might be interesting. It may also be a shrewd PR move as perhaps there will not be much public response to it (not many people actually affected) and the few tormented owners will be satisfied with a fix. That might be ideal for all parties concerned.
Are we really sure this is "new" software. Wasn't there some posts quite some time ago, late last year, about a Toyota or Lexus software fix that turned out not to really work?
And read the article carefully, even the Toyota representative seems to be hedging his bets, as if the fix had already been tried and found wanting.
I'm driving along at ~30MPH in the acceleration lane and no traffic openings are immediately apparent so I release the gas pedal entirely. Now, just as the transaxle begins its shift into a higher coastdown gear resulting from the throttle being closed, I spot an upcoming opening in the traffic and ease the accelerator pedal down. The engine/transaxle ECU responds by queuing up the next shift (some intermediate downshift since I am not yet really asking for acceleration torque) to begin as soon as the upshift is complete.
About now I notice that the engine hasn't responded to the gas pedal depression so I react by pressing further down on the gas pedal, maybe just about the time the transaxle receives the previously qued downshift (intermediate) command.
So now it ques a more serious level of downshifting since the ECU now senses that I desire a higher level of acceleration torque.
Remembering that the transaxle shifting sequence timing is entirely "open loop" and each shift sequence might involve as much as a second of time the above situation might very well result in the throttle remaining closed for an entire 2 seconds.
And at the end of the 2 seconds one should certainly expect a "lurch" and an engine jump to high RPM.
I think this is the real deal, and I'll tell you why. The Toyota PR guy stated something to the effect that the reprogram will "incrementally" improve shifting characteristics of the transmission, but that it won't "fix all the problems". This guy is good! Imagine if he had said that the "fix" would SUBSTANTIALLY improve the shifting characteristics. Well then, Toyota just admitted that there was something substantially wrong with the trans. Of course, by further stating that the reprogram will not satisfy of "fix all the problems", well then he was certainly covering his U No What. My feeling at this point is cautiously optomistic. I try to remember: No expectations=No disappointments.
First of all, we don't know for certain that there have been no accidents attributed to the DBW with 5-speed set -up
Well, conversely it hasn't been proven that a single accident occurred because of the faulty tranny or DBW. When somebody is accusing a manufacturer of producing a defective unsafe product, the burden is on them to prove that the product is unsafe by providing facts and figures. So far none of the critic has done so. Toyota has repeatedly said that not a single accident or injury happened because of the faulty tranny and until someone can come with verifiable proof that an accident occurring on such and such date was caused by Toyota's faulty car the critics really don't have much leg to stand on. I am by no means saying that the transmission in question is the best transmission in the world. However, until someone can prove otherwise, I am unwilling to believe that the transmission/DBW in question is dangerous as some critics of Toyota claim they are.
I don't believe there is any safety hazard with the hesitation thing. No accidents=no injuries=no figures to prove otherwise=exaggerated claims. I believe quite a lot of this thing is one exaggeration after another. The two or three second bit is way over what real hesitation there might be.Saying there are many who won lemon law settlements is another exaggeration. Sure, some people are *saying* there are, but that does not make it true. Saying many cars have been taken to dealers and tested with Toyota paying the bill is another exaggeration. How *many* is many and how can anyone say they know what the numbers are? The way I see this discussion going is if you don't agree with the bashers, and don't play their game, you are wrong and they will do what they can to run you off, or bury your opinions with a bunch of other exaggerations right after them.
kraft - no one wants to run you off, and no one is saying your opinions don't have value. no one is trying to bury your postings.
please if you'd care to try - prove there have been no accidents or injuries related to engine / transmission hesitation. realize, even if some accidents and injuries did occur as a result of an issue like this, it's unlikely that it would have been associated with the vehicle behavior and further, even more unlikely that it would have been reported. what you have is anecdotal reports of people estimating the severity of the hesitation, or situations they or their spouses have found themselves in.
further realize that even if there have been no accidents or injuries related to an issue (X), and let's leave X completely open to a range of issues - not necessarily hesitation, perhaps electronic steering failure or stability control yaw-rate or steering wheel sensor failure or other, that doesn't mean issue (X) isn't an issue negatively impacting safety.
and finally, because a corporate spokesperson states that issue (X) isn't a safety issue doesn't make that a true statement. remember the ford pinto?
i mean, logic and argument aside, how you or i perceive, reason and conclude what we do is a topic of discussion on another web-site, but that doesn't warrant trying to make you or anyone else go away from this forum on this web-site.
it's interesting you choose to classify persons with a differing opinion as yours on this topic as "bashers".
Depends on how hard someone pushes this safety thing whether it's brand-bashing or not.
If someone started plastering in the forum that Lexuses are dangerous, those comments would probably be deleted for "brand-bashing", yes.
But of course an occasional speculation as to what might happen with a dead gas pedal seems harmless enough.
The burden of proof probably rests with the person making the claim of a safety hazard, since Lexuses don't seem to be crashing left and right and no one has heard or seen anything to the contrary. With the Pinto and Corvair you had some pretty dramatic evidence, witnesses and police reports. Quite a different matter IMO.
Anyway, let's move on from this safety thing--it is way too speculative and as someone else said, is distracting from the real problem---how annoying and disappointing the hesitation is to the owner.
777 asks"please if you'd care to try - prove there have been no accidents or injuries" How can I prove there have been no accidents any more than someone here can prove there have been accidents or injuries. My point is this. If you can't prove it then don't say it. Why are you guys always insisting there are, that it is a safety hazard, when you have no way of proving it. If you can't prove it then why say it. The only answer I get is that you want people to believe it and you are saying it just to get the wind up. I think this whole thing is just a few guys making a big noise over something that doesn't amount to very much.
I believe the 5 speeds feel *different* than the old 4 speeds. It certainly does to me. Is this a *problem*? Not to me. Is it just a Toyota issue? I don't think so because there are reports of it for lots of other makes too. I don't feel there is a problem of hesitation to the extent these guys insist there is. I think these guys are making this thing into something more than there really is-for some reason-and I am not sure what that might be. Maybe they are just going thru what one person called *buyers remorse*. Maybe they don't want Toyota around any more. I know that only a few--always the same ones--people are making noises here unless there are a lot of people with the same usernames. I feel there is a lot of misinformation being posted and it makes me wonder what the motive is. I feel that the Pittsburg newspaper articles have been flogged repeatedly on most of the Toyota threads at Edmunds and I wonder why that is. Other than those things I guess I wonder why these guys are making such a big deal over me being here. It is almost like they don't want anyone here who does not agree with everything they say. So what do you think?
I don't know what to think because I haven't experienced the problem. None of my friends cars do this thing.
But I believe *something* is going on, definitely. Whether it is two seconds long, or dangerous, or even annoying, I don't know.
If it really is 2 seconds, that's pretty awful and totally unacceptable. But if, on the other extreme, it is a fraction of a second of a delay, well then that's a personal tolerance level type of thing.
I'd need to experience it to decide if it is within the range of what one might call "acceptable for the type" or not. By that I mean I'd have to see when it happens, what I'm doing to make it better or worse, what i can do to compensate or avoid it, or whether it even bothers me, or whether it is really a no-brainer defect.
At least your being honest. I thank you for that.I tried to be honest also. Some don't want it that way or seem to want to own this topic and make their own rules. Best to just let them go at it. Not much harm done because it seems they are all by themselves most of the time anyway.
Well I think most folks have tried to be pretty balanced about it. We'll trust to their good judgment and see how this hesitation situation developes over time.
.....since I left to go on a flying junket up the East and North Coasts of this awesome country.
Wwest, as a former aviator you might be interested in this. My wife an I have just had the good fortune to accompany our friend, a PA 44 owner, on flights of around 6000 miles in total along the N and E coastlines in the Eastern half of Aussieland. Quite an experience. Perfect weather and spectacular sights!!
Now it's early Sunday morning and time for the pre bedtime allotment of Macallan, and I've just finished a review of what's been going on here in the past 6 days.
Much discussion, but only one new fact has emerged in that time. Toyota has apparently found a remedy. That's certainly good news, and it certainly shows commitment to this issue by Toyota.
Shifty, a comment on your recent statement about a "balanced" approach. That's what I've been hoping for all along. I think I've used the term "balanced" on a number of occasions. Realistic, meaningful, and constructive discussion on this or any other issue, when a realistic conclusion is the objective, should take place ONLY in the presence of FACTS .
This discussion has not, for the most part, been characterized by facts; on the contrary it has been more characterized by opinion, speculation, theory, and in some cases, misinformation by one side or the other. That in and of itself is OK, as long as it's recognised as such, but it has to be recognised as more "argument" than "discussion." (Albeit a civil "argument"--well, most of the time anyway!) I think in that context you have allowed it to be "balanced", so thanks for that.
In terms of facts disclosed to date:
.The issue exists and is bothersome for some. .Toyota recognises its existence and has committed to fixing it. .A remedy of some description has been identified by Toyota. .No one can state conclusively if it is a widespread phenomenon. .No one can state conclusively how severe it is when it occurs; it apparently varies in duration, although the majority of reported incidents are "momentary" in nature. .Many other makes with 5 speed transmissions are reported to have similar characteristics. .Toyota seems to be the only automaker stepping up to the plate about it. .No one can state conclusively it is or isn't a safety hazard, and no accidents or injuries have been reported.
So it would appear the jury is very much undecided in this issue. Where does it go from here?
:confuse: My 2004 Sunfire doesn't seem to perform normally when cold. I start it up and apply the gas to warm it up in the morning and it has a slight whining sound coming from the engine area. After warming it up for a minute or so, I start to drive it and also notice the whining sound continue until the car reaches normal operating tempature, then it goes away. In these first 10 minutes or so until normal operating temp is acheived, the cars performance seems to be very poor, like a the engine power is being held back. The performance improves as the whining sound goes away.
The current ambient temp where I live has been between 5 - 10 degrees Celsius overnight lately. When the weather is colder, the problem is more prevalent.
The car operation manual says that I should be able to drive the car after 10 seconds of starting it without concern, but this problem makes me feel that driving the car is not good for engine unless I warm it up longer.
The car only has 12000 km on it and the dealership seems to think that this is normal. I don't.
Is there anyone that help me understand whether I do actually have a problem?
consult your owners manual and/or dealership specifically with respect to the operation of the transmission. i could be wrong about this - but i believe many vehicles are designed to use less than their full range of transmission gearing so as to actually speed up the warmup of the engine. once that is accomplished, the transmission can use the full complement of gears.
5 Celsius isn't very cold (about 40 degrees F) but aside from user's good suggestion you might look up what grade of oil you are using. You may want to drop down to a 5W or 10W. Your crankshaft has to plow through all that cold oil and that can put a load on an engine.
As for the whine, if it goes away I wouldn't worry about it.
Have you considered using a block heater, or even just a simple light bulb under the car at night? (if you have a garage).
I drove several other Camrys and a Lexus and they all felt similar to mine. I did not expiereance a major hesitation on any of them in the short time I drove but the shift pattern felt the same. Also during my arbitration the factory rep said if I did not like the way my car shifted I would not be happy with any of them. The regional rep and a tech rep in my arbitration where vary aware of the problem and had been though arbitrations on this issue before.
The only thing I can add about the safety issue is that this car frightened me big time about 4 times in 20,000 miles due to the hesitation issue. Thats why I don't own it anymore.
As for buyers remorse someone else mentioned I only wish they could have fixed it while I owned it so I could enjoy an otherwise beautiful automobile for many more years.
I admit to not being a very good writer. My last paragraph in post #742 would read better this way.
Someone mentioned buyers remorse. I only wish they could have fixed the problem while I still owned my camry so I could enjoy an otherwise beautiful automobile for many more years.
Yes, I do believe the problem exists-regardless it is Toyota or not. I purchased 2005 Toyota Camry LE-4 cyl., I could not even imagine it would hesititate on acceleration so much. And I thinlk it is a shame for Toyota to make such cars...But seems nobody care anymore because a lot of people buying only name...I decide to replace my 12 years old Olds 88 when original tranny broke at 154K. Honestly I feel that I almost wasted 20K... Hope I am wrong...
Thanks for the reply. Glad you are still checking in. Your experience seems to confirm the variability in the degree of hesitation and it could explain why it is non-existent or minor issue to some, but serious to others. Happy driving.
Fine, if any of you have a genuine concern about duplicate IDs, please e-mail me about who you think is doing this with what IDs and I'll check it out. But let's not air this online. I'd like to avoid that.
shifty - would you let us all know one way or another?
pilot130: the forum hasn't gone quiet. i think everyone is waiting to see how toyota is going to roll out the SW upgrade, and if people experience an appreciable improvement.
Sorry but forum discipline, complaints, etc. MUST be voiced off-line. You are all free to e-mail me directly but we never reveal the details of deletions or actions concerning another user, for the sake of privacy.
You may be right. It may take some time though until any meaningful information becomes available. We'll just have to wait and see how it unfolds. In the meantime, I spent a good part of this morning perusing all of the Toyota/Lexus threads, to get an idea of how many hesitation complaints there really are. Guess what, I found there are many more owners whose posts say they didn't have hesitation than those who claimed they did. Isn't that interesting?
I commented on this earlier. In an effort to keep this on topic, anyone have any comment on why the upgrade would be covered under the Federal Emissions Warranty? I know that we have speculated that the hesitation problem arose out of modifications to meet tighter emission/and or fuel consumption standards. Is this some sort of admission of that? Or is this just the logical warranty to cover this sort of problem. IFor the sludge problem, it wasn't even really a warranty coverage, but a policy of some sort.
It's Toyota's money that will pay for any of this. As such, they are free to call it whatever they want - Owner Loyalty, etc. Even if the Federal Emissions folks have any input into the fix, would they care about why Toyota spends their own money?
I'd bet that this is the name of an Accounting coffer - as in, "What do I charge these expenses to, Boss?"
"Well, what do we have that makes it sound like we're really concerned about it, but won't imply it's safety-related?" No proof, but a hunch.
I'm glad that they're doing something. I haven't posted lately for the reason offered - not much here to comment on, until some folks get back to us with post-upgrade reports.
Good Morning all (It's not morning here tho'): In keeping with Scoti1's wishes..... The topic is "Engine Hesitation-All Makes/Models". Research shows hesitation is characteristic to most, if not all, makes and models of 5 speed (and some 6 speed) auto transmissions. It is being reported in topics relating to vehicles with those transmissions, across the board. Why the discussion has not taken this into consideration is curious. It seems that Toyota/Lexus is centred as the prime discussion target regarding the issue. Whether or not this distinction is warranted is purely speculative. Nevertheless, a few facts have been identified as regards the hesitation characteristic as it relates to Toyota/Lexus. I have listed these in a previous post, but here they are again:
.The issue exists and is bothersome for some. .Toyota/Lexus recognises its existence and has committed to fixing it. .A remedy of some description has been identified by Toyota/Lexus. .No one can state conclusively if it is a widespread phenomenon. .No one can state conclusively how severe it is when it occurs; it apparently varies in duration, although the majority of reported incidents are "momentary" in nature. .Other makes with 5 speed transmissions are reported to have similar characteristics. .Toyota/Lexus seems to be the only automaker stepping up to the plate about it. .No one can state conclusively it is or isn't a safety hazard, and no accidents or injuries have been reported.
Centering the discussion on only one automaker, where most seem to experience similar issues, is perhaps something worth thinking about in 'Keeping This Discussion On Topic." Characterizing this issue as uniquely Toyota/Lexus Design Flaw, Defect, or tagging it with anything other than what we know for sure, is nothing more than speculation on our part. Discussing these rather ominous sounding implications may make for lively exchanges, but there's no factual value there. Speculating why Toyota/Lexus refers to Federal Emissions Warranty re their proposed remedy, again, is perhaps therapeutic but little else.
Please note I am not attempting to discourage any discussion, or marginalize anyone's input. The point was raised about keeping on topic. All I'm trying to do is put things in perspective.
I see posts that say Toyota has acknowledged that Lexus & Camry have hesitation problems. Where can I find articles on Toyota officially recognizing that Camrys have the hesitation problem?
Comments
I can't find the time to go back and re-read this entire Forum, so I'll just ask you - what vehicles do you / did you drive? Do you / did you have this hesitation problem?
The big message in the new P-G article is that Toyota has come up with some sort of software upgrade. Yet the discussion has been fixated on editting the author, dissing the author, complaining about how much this article is being promoted, discussing NHTSA's involvement or lack of involvement, complaining about me, LOL, but nothing about the main part -- the software upgrade. I would certainly like to hear more from wwest and user777, on their thoughts on the meat of the article. Yes, the article is being discussed to death, but for all the wrong reasons.
"Toyota and Lexus owners who decide to try the latest computer upgrade should know that the repair work will be covered under the cars' federal emissions warranty for eight years or 80,000 miles from the original sales date, so it should be free for all but the highest mileage cars, Hoyt said.
"The job takes about an hour, but a vehicle may have to be left longer than that, depending on the dealership's work schedule," he said."
It's an approach politicians have mastered well, including the guy in the White House.
Some people have a real problem and now Toyota is trying AGAIN to fix it with new software. I don't want it. My c2005 is sometimes jerky at very low speeds, but it's not a deal breaker or unsafe situation for me. I know other folks would probably like to have my "problem" instead of their's.
Interested to hear from folks who get the new fix. And I'm glad the reporter gave a "voice" to frustrated car owners.
The new Avalon feels a little bit different because of the 5 speed auto, but it is always smooth and responds if and when I want it to.It certainly has more pep than the old one--more than you need really. As far as I'm concerned there is no problem with these cars unless you want to really be picky about the slightly different feel. I think that may be a big part of what is going on here.
I also don't think any of the discussions by you guys who are beating this to death here had anything to do with *backing Toyota into a corner* about this issue. That is a little too much to swallow.
By Tthe way, my brother bought an Acura last fall with a 5 speed and I can't tell any difference between it and my Avalon in the way the transmission operates. Even my brother admitsthe quality-fit and finish and interior- of the Avalon is much better though. It is also a quieter ride, although the old one was pretty quiet too.
dla2, are you still around? You stated that if anyone drove your car, they would notice the hesitation, it was that bad (a deal killer for you since you ended up trading it in). I can't remember if you said you had driven other Toyota/Lexus' with the V-6 5-speed, but if you did, did you notice hesitation in those? Was it more or less than what you felt in your own car? just curious.
I can appreciate defending an innocent manufacturer against slander and bashing. Toyota has already admitted that there's something that they're trying to fix. Can't you imagine someone else's transmission, spanning now 4 models years, having different firmware / software, and perhaps different hardware as well, that makes their behave MUCH differently? He fact that many people have taken the time to initiate lemon law arbitration over this thing tells me something. Add to this that many cars have been taken to dealers and tested - with Toyota footing the bill - as posted in this forum, tells me that some Toyota dealers see something as well. And now the fact that Toyota has taken the time to re-engineer a fix, and make announcements about it, tells me that Toyota sees something as well.
I wouldn't ever assume that my experience with my vehicle was going to be the same experience for other people with their vehicle, built in different facilities, at different times, with different firmware and software. That's kind of like saying that people that complain about their (insert Dell, Gateway, Compaq, or whatever here) computer with Windows ME are nuts because my same-brand computer with Windows 98 seems fine. Or that mine with XP SP2 is fine - why are you complaining about your Windows ME?
would certainly like to hear more from wwest and user777, on their thoughts on the meat of the article
i don't think i can add much re: the article. we could pull out of the article and focus on what we wanted, depending on our viewpoint.
but hey, i "flunked" the host, and my edmunds account is still active. shifty i respect and thank you for allowing people of differing knowlege, opinion, experience, interest etc, express themselves in a civil manner and exchange information when that becomes available. we are very fortunate that edmunds has these discussion forums.
i'm interested in the specifics of the SW upgrade. since the manufacturer isn't likely to disclose the specifics, if i owned one of these vehicles with significant hesitation, i'd probably want to instrument the vehicle with an OBD reader before the fix to capture the real-time data associated with the phenomenon a number of times (i presume that some owners can re-create it).
then, post-fix, i'd want to re-instrument the vehicle and capture data under similar conditions to see if it is possible to indirectly determine how they mitigated it. it would provide me with a quantitative / objective basis for assessing the amount of improvement and provide me with additional information useful in discussing the phenomenon with the dealership or other manufacturer representatives as required.
It is easy to enrage the mob on any subject, and journalists are very good at this--unfortunately, it's not their problem to solve, and many of them (certainly not all) will shovel anything out at us to get our attention and feather their own nests.
In the article in question, the point about the new software is useful. The NHTSA comments are pure drivel: To quote"
"That probe was separate from another potential investigation that the NHTSA, citing a high volume of e-mails and telephone calls prompted by stories in the Post-Gazette early this year, said it may undertake after looking further into the matter."
What if you brought a bad cell phone into my store and I told you that "now that I am prompted by stories I've read about this product, I may undertake another look at your defective product after I look further into the matter".
Do you have that "empty bag" feeling? I do reading stuff like that.
But the new software, that might be interesting. It may also be a shrewd PR move as perhaps there will not be much public response to it (not many people actually affected) and the few tormented owners will be satisfied with a fix. That might be ideal for all parties concerned.
And read the article carefully, even the Toyota representative seems to be hedging his bets, as if the fix had already been tried and found wanting.
I'm driving along at ~30MPH in the acceleration lane and no traffic openings are immediately apparent so I release the gas pedal entirely. Now, just as the transaxle begins its shift into a higher coastdown gear resulting from the throttle being closed, I spot an upcoming opening in the traffic and ease the accelerator pedal down. The engine/transaxle ECU responds by queuing up the next shift (some intermediate downshift since I am not yet really asking for acceleration torque) to begin as soon as the upshift is complete.
About now I notice that the engine hasn't responded to the gas pedal depression so I react by pressing further down on the gas pedal, maybe just about the time the transaxle receives the previously qued downshift (intermediate) command.
So now it ques a more serious level of downshifting since the ECU now senses that I desire a higher level of acceleration torque.
Remembering that the transaxle shifting sequence timing is entirely "open loop" and each shift sequence might involve as much as a second of time the above situation might very well result in the throttle remaining closed for an entire 2 seconds.
And at the end of the 2 seconds one should certainly expect a "lurch" and an engine jump to high RPM.
The Toyota "oil gel" issue got resolved pretty quietly.
Well, conversely it hasn't been proven that a single accident occurred because of the faulty tranny or DBW. When somebody is accusing a manufacturer of producing a defective unsafe product, the burden is on them to prove that the product is unsafe by providing facts and figures. So far none of the critic has done so. Toyota has repeatedly said that not a single accident or injury happened because of the faulty tranny and until someone can come with verifiable proof that an accident occurring on such and such date was caused by Toyota's faulty car the critics really don't have much leg to stand on. I am by no means saying that the transmission in question is the best transmission in the world. However, until someone can prove otherwise, I am unwilling to believe that the transmission/DBW in question is dangerous as some critics of Toyota claim they are.
The way I see this discussion going is if you don't agree with the bashers, and don't play their game, you are wrong and they will do what they can to run you off, or bury your opinions with a bunch of other exaggerations right after them.
please if you'd care to try - prove there have been no accidents or injuries related to engine / transmission hesitation. realize, even if some accidents and injuries did occur as a result of an issue like this, it's unlikely that it would have been associated with the vehicle behavior and further, even more unlikely that it would have been reported. what you have is anecdotal reports of people estimating the severity of the hesitation, or situations they or their spouses have found themselves in.
further realize that even if there have been no accidents or injuries related to an issue (X), and let's leave X completely open to a range of issues - not necessarily hesitation, perhaps electronic steering failure or stability control yaw-rate or steering wheel sensor failure or other, that doesn't mean issue (X) isn't an issue negatively impacting safety.
and finally, because a corporate spokesperson states that issue (X) isn't a safety issue doesn't make that a true statement. remember the ford pinto?
i mean, logic and argument aside, how you or i perceive, reason and conclude what we do is a topic of discussion on another web-site, but that doesn't warrant trying to make you or anyone else go away from this forum on this web-site.
it's interesting you choose to classify persons with a differing opinion as yours on this topic as "bashers".
If someone started plastering in the forum that Lexuses are dangerous, those comments would probably be deleted for "brand-bashing", yes.
But of course an occasional speculation as to what might happen with a dead gas pedal seems harmless enough.
The burden of proof probably rests with the person making the claim of a safety hazard, since Lexuses don't seem to be crashing left and right and no one has heard or seen anything to the contrary. With the Pinto and Corvair you had some pretty dramatic evidence, witnesses and police reports. Quite a different matter IMO.
Anyway, let's move on from this safety thing--it is way too speculative and as someone else said, is distracting from the real problem---how annoying and disappointing the hesitation is to the owner.
How can I prove there have been no accidents any more than someone here can prove there have been accidents or injuries.
My point is this. If you can't prove it then don't say it. Why are you guys always insisting there are, that it is a safety hazard, when you have no way of proving it.
If you can't prove it then why say it. The only answer I get is that you want people to believe it and you are saying it just to get the wind up. I think this whole thing is just a few guys making a big noise over something that doesn't amount to very much.
I don't feel there is a problem of hesitation to the extent these guys insist there is. I think these guys are making this thing into something more than there really is-for some reason-and I am not sure what that might be. Maybe they are just going thru what one person called *buyers remorse*. Maybe they don't want Toyota around any more. I know that only a few--always the same ones--people are making noises here unless there are a lot of people with the same usernames. I feel there is a lot of misinformation being posted and it makes me wonder what the motive is. I feel that the Pittsburg newspaper articles have been flogged repeatedly on most of the Toyota threads at Edmunds and I wonder why that is. Other than those things I guess I wonder why these guys are making such a big deal over me being here. It is almost like they don't want anyone here who does not agree with everything they say. So what do you think?
But I believe *something* is going on, definitely. Whether it is two seconds long, or dangerous, or even annoying, I don't know.
If it really is 2 seconds, that's pretty awful and totally unacceptable. But if, on the other extreme, it is a fraction of a second of a delay, well then that's a personal tolerance level type of thing.
I'd need to experience it to decide if it is within the range of what one might call "acceptable for the type" or not. By that I mean I'd have to see when it happens, what I'm doing to make it better or worse, what i can do to compensate or avoid it, or whether it even bothers me, or whether it is really a no-brainer defect.
Wwest, as a former aviator you might be interested in this. My wife an I have just had the good fortune to accompany our friend, a PA 44 owner, on flights of around 6000 miles in total along the N and E coastlines in the Eastern half of Aussieland. Quite an experience. Perfect weather and spectacular sights!!
Now it's early Sunday morning and time for the pre bedtime allotment of Macallan, and I've just finished a review of what's been going on here in the past 6 days.
Much discussion, but only one new fact has emerged in that time.
Toyota has apparently found a remedy. That's certainly good news, and it certainly shows commitment to this issue by Toyota.
Shifty, a comment on your recent statement about a "balanced" approach.
That's what I've been hoping for all along. I think I've used the term "balanced" on a number of occasions.
Realistic, meaningful, and constructive discussion on this or any other issue, when a realistic conclusion is the objective, should take place ONLY in the presence of FACTS .
This discussion has not, for the most part, been characterized by facts; on the contrary it has been more characterized by opinion, speculation, theory, and in some cases, misinformation by one side or the other.
That in and of itself is OK, as long as it's recognised as such, but it has to be recognised as more "argument" than "discussion." (Albeit a civil "argument"--well, most of the time anyway!)
I think in that context you have allowed it to be "balanced", so thanks for that.
In terms of facts disclosed to date:
.The issue exists and is bothersome for some.
.Toyota recognises its existence and has committed to fixing it.
.A remedy of some description has been identified by Toyota.
.No one can state conclusively if it is a widespread phenomenon.
.No one can state conclusively how severe it is when it occurs; it apparently varies in duration, although the majority of reported incidents are "momentary" in nature.
.Many other makes with 5 speed transmissions are reported to have similar characteristics.
.Toyota seems to be the only automaker stepping up to the plate about it.
.No one can state conclusively it is or isn't a safety hazard, and no accidents or injuries have been reported.
So it would appear the jury is very much undecided in this issue.
Where does it go from here?
The current ambient temp where I live has been between 5 - 10 degrees Celsius overnight lately. When the weather is colder, the problem is more prevalent.
The car operation manual says that I should be able to drive the car after 10 seconds of starting it without concern, but this problem makes me feel that driving the car is not good for engine unless I warm it up longer.
The car only has 12000 km on it and the dealership seems to think that this is normal. I don't.
Is there anyone that help me understand whether I do actually have a problem?
As for the whine, if it goes away I wouldn't worry about it.
Have you considered using a block heater, or even just a simple light bulb under the car at night? (if you have a garage).
The only thing I can add about the safety issue is that this car frightened me big time about 4 times in 20,000 miles due to the hesitation issue. Thats why I don't own it anymore.
As for buyers remorse someone else mentioned I only wish they could have fixed it while I owned it so I could enjoy an otherwise beautiful automobile for many more years.
Someone mentioned buyers remorse. I only wish they could have fixed the problem while I still owned my camry so I could enjoy an otherwise beautiful automobile for many more years.
Thanks for the reply. Glad you are still checking in. Your experience seems to confirm the variability in the degree of hesitation and it could explain why it is non-existent or minor issue to some, but serious to others. Happy driving.
Agree 100% with "let's not go there again.
thanks
Shifty the Host
pilot130: the forum hasn't gone quiet. i think everyone is waiting to see how toyota is going to roll out the SW upgrade, and if people experience an appreciable improvement.
thanks, and please continue your discussions!
Shifty the Host
We'll just have to wait and see how it unfolds.
In the meantime, I spent a good part of this morning perusing all of the Toyota/Lexus threads, to get an idea of how many hesitation complaints there really are.
Guess what, I found there are many more owners whose posts say they didn't have hesitation than those who claimed they did.
Isn't that interesting?
I'd bet that this is the name of an Accounting coffer - as in, "What do I charge these expenses to, Boss?"
"Well, what do we have that makes it sound like we're really concerned about it, but won't imply it's safety-related?" No proof, but a hunch.
I'm glad that they're doing something. I haven't posted lately for the reason offered - not much here to comment on, until some folks get back to us with post-upgrade reports.
In keeping with Scoti1's wishes.....
The topic is "Engine Hesitation-All Makes/Models".
Research shows hesitation is characteristic to most, if not all, makes and models of 5 speed (and some 6 speed) auto transmissions.
It is being reported in topics relating to vehicles with those transmissions, across the board.
Why the discussion has not taken this into consideration is curious.
It seems that Toyota/Lexus is centred as the prime discussion target regarding the issue.
Whether or not this distinction is warranted is purely speculative.
Nevertheless, a few facts have been identified as regards the hesitation characteristic as it relates to Toyota/Lexus.
I have listed these in a previous post, but here they are again:
.The issue exists and is bothersome for some.
.Toyota/Lexus recognises its existence and has committed to fixing it.
.A remedy of some description has been identified by Toyota/Lexus.
.No one can state conclusively if it is a widespread phenomenon.
.No one can state conclusively how severe it is when it occurs; it apparently varies in duration, although the majority of reported incidents are "momentary" in nature.
.Other makes with 5 speed transmissions are reported to have similar characteristics.
.Toyota/Lexus seems to be the only automaker stepping up to the plate about it.
.No one can state conclusively it is or isn't a safety hazard, and no accidents or injuries have been reported.
Centering the discussion on only one automaker, where most seem to experience similar issues, is perhaps something worth thinking about in 'Keeping This Discussion On Topic."
Characterizing this issue as uniquely Toyota/Lexus Design Flaw, Defect, or tagging it with anything other than what we know for sure, is nothing more than speculation on our part.
Discussing these rather ominous sounding implications may make for lively exchanges, but there's no factual value there.
Speculating why Toyota/Lexus refers to Federal Emissions Warranty re their proposed remedy, again, is perhaps therapeutic but little else.
Please note I am not attempting to discourage any discussion, or marginalize anyone's input.
The point was raised about keeping on topic. All I'm trying to do is put things in perspective.