Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)

josh5

Here's the thing...

I didn't take the TSB to a dealership at first. A Lexus corporate factory rep said it was fake. I DO NOT know if what he tells me is true...but I hope it is true to the best of his knowledge.

I have now contacted a dealership on it who has never heard of the April 2005 update. I showed them the TSB with the April update, and pointed out April 2005. They said it's a forgery.

The TSB has an April 2005 update, sure. That is the portion they say is fake. It is in addition to a REAL TSB, the ES 03/04 one according to Lexus.

So it's a quandary.

This is why it is essential to know where the TSB with the April 2005 update came from. I have no idea why someone would fake it. It makes no sense, other than it gets us riled up. I am just reporting what Lexus tells me.

I hope it turns out to be real. I need it to be to get any results from a dealership. If Lexus says it's a fake, it doesn't do us any good. Only if it's real does it help us.

scoti1

Anyone in denial should check out the Lexus ES300/330 forums and the Transmission Problems in ES300? discussion. This little discussion in Engine Hesitation is only the tip of the iceberg.

Mr_Shiftright

If your transmission has an OD lockout button, then you should use it at low speeds, definitely. If it doesn't, then you have no choice I guess. Do what your owner's manual suggests.

On many cars, they lock you out of 5th gear until the engine warms up (I believe Lexus has this feature). Why is that there? To prevent excessive wear to transmission and engine.

I always lock out OD on any automatic I'm driving in the city if I have that option. It's a good idea.

bkinblk

On my way home from work today, I stopped at the same Lexus dealsership and talked to the same shop foreman that I talked to on Friday. This time I took a copy of the so-called "fake" TSB. He told me it was the real thing and that he recently reprogrammed an ES-330 with the new revised calibration I.D. He said there was no way to tell if this is the same "fix" as was originally reprogrammed in 2003 because it is a different code. He did not road test the car to determine if it made a difference, but he said he wouldn't be able to tell anyway, since these cars always drive fine for a couple days after a reprogram or reset until the care "learns" your driving pattern. He has not heard from the owner of the car in a week (that's good news). So, maybe the Toyota PR rep is being truthfull when he stated that a new software program was being rolled out first on the Lexus, then Toyota shortly thereafter. We will have to wait and see.

wwest

I have a letter right here in hand dated September 11th, 2004 from Rick Podorski, Western Regional Service Manager for PCNA, Porsche Cars North America.

It is in response to my enquiry of September 1, 2004 regarding the status of a firmware update fix for the climate control system in my 2001 Porsche C4. The C4's climate control system often ("part of the system's normal operation." R. Podorski) cools the windshield so severely on a hot and humid day, or night, that the exterior surface of the windshield will fog over, sometimes almost instantaneously.

I had noticed on a web forum that the VW had issued a firmware update for the Touareg SUV that corrected this very problem. So basically my question was if VW has fixed the touareg climate control then the VW fix will probably be applicable to the Cayenne and maybe my C4.

Here is a single sentence from my letter which will indicate just how well we can expect a factory service representative to keep up on these things.

"Porsche Cars can appreciate the time you have spent researching this matter with another manufacturer, but these are two different systems that cannot be compared."

The VW Touareg and the Porsche Cayenne climate control systems CANNOT BE COMPARED!

Hmmm...

Maybe someone should inform the workers and/or the buyers in the jopintly owned Porsche/VW factory where both are build using 90% of the same components.

Just as asian manufacturers primarily use NipponDenso, many european manufacturers use Bosch as a resource for electrical and electronic designs. I verified just last evening that an owner of a new BMW has exactly the same complaint. His solution is to lay a towel over the windshield airflow outlet ducts in the summertime to prevent the windshield outside temperature from declining to dewpoint.

Mr_Shiftright

what it says in the Lexus owner's manual about how to use the 5 speed automatic transmission?

Appreciate that....

imidazol97

That delay may be to speed engine warmup for pollution control standards. The torque converter probably doesn't lock up until the engine is partly warmed up either.

ski

Shifty, dla2, wwest, bkinblk, user777 - Thank you for your responses so far, I am taking notes. Looks like developing a drivability argument may be a good bet, followed by a possible loss of value.

I happen to own a 98 Sienna, which accelerates so smoothly compared to my 05 Camry and am considering using that in the drivability argument.

User777 - ok, someday you can decipher for me.

josh5

ES April 1, 2005 TSB is NOT a fake. It is real, but...

I know I said that Lexus told me it was a fake. They did. I know I was the one to to ask for proof that it was real. Wwest challenged me to find proof it's a fake. I investigated, made some contact with Lexus corporate, did more homeowork.

Here is why there is confusion as to whether or not it's real:

First, the April 1, 2005 TSB update is real. It is for the ES ONLY. But it may not fix the hesitation, because it hasn't been tested in the U.S. All of the Lexus dealerships recieved the TSB, and are going to privately test it on their own ES's. Some dealerships and factory reps are unaware of the new TSB because it is an addendum to such an old TSB, that it is buried in their system. The dealerships are under instruction from corporate not to test it on the public's (our) cars, because it may not work. If it doesn't, they don't want another customer satisfaction nightmare like the first attempted fix for the ES that didn't work.

If the April 1, 2005 TSB does work, it should be put into effect in May.

I really apologize for stirring up any doubt about this TSB. But sincerely, no one could prove it. Now it is at every Lexus dealership. So anyone who doubts that hesitation is real, you can go into a Lexus dealership, and BAM, there's proof that hesitation is a fact--if you believe that's what the TSB is addressing.

But realize, if you want your car fixed, wait. If you call them to do the reflash, Lexus says it WILL NOT put it on our cars until it's tested and proven to fix the problem.

I will definitely keep this forum updated, as always, with the best information I have at hand. Please forgive my earlier contention of the TSB. It was the information Lexus told me.

Lastly, I was told by Lexus that if this TSB works on the ES, it will pave the way for an RX TSB next. That would happen between August and December as I said in an earlier post.

bkinblk

josh5- If you read my earlier post, I told this forum that my Lexus guy did indeed perform the upgrade (based on the revised TSB) on a customer's ES-330. Today, the Lexus guy told me he had not heard from the customer in about 10 days (so far, so good). Hey, at least Toyota-Lexus acknowledges that there are issues with this transmission and/or software and finally seem to be doing something about it. I don't think it's the same old "fix". I don't think Toyota wants to extend this nightmare any longer than they have to.

bkinblk

bkinblk

ski- May the force be with you. I am rooting you on. Keep us posted on any future developments. Like a pro golfer, I am reading your putt, so I can use the same line!

cam1

We own a 2004 Solara (with Lexus engine and 5-speed trans) which is our 6th new Toyota. My wife drives it, and she has been complaining about this ever since we got the car, so I took it for a test drive recently to see what she was talking about. It's every bit as bad as she said it was at low speeds, but what I found most alarming was its behavior at higher speeds. All you have to do is get off the throttle for a few seconds, then floor it (as if, say, you were on an onramp and needed a burst of acceleration to avoid an accident) to experience what the controversy is all about. Nothing happens for over a second (one thousand one, one...) and *then* you get all the acceleration you need. Anyone who drives a car with this drivetrain should try this experiment themselves, rather than find out the hard way that there's a problem with these cars.

Just wanted you to know there's more than 10 people here with this particular problem.

Toyota Canada has ignored my calls, so far, and the dealer has not been able to assist in any way. I'll be bringing the recently announced fix to their attention in a couple of weeks, fwiw, but I'm not optimistic that it'll do any good. I suspect most people here are as frustrated as I am, and I'll be monitoring this site for news on potential solutions.

BTW, my service department believes this is *not* a safety issue. I respectfully disagree.

scoti1

There are more than 10 reporting the problem in the first 200 posts on this forum, so that comment about only 10 here was a WAG.

dodge and deflect.

ecotrklvr

Hey - TInkerbell2 - Stick around. You have already given us all a great post. 11 Posters? I guess I'm one already, and I don't post that often unless I see a need that no one else is addressing.

I'm sticking around to see how Toyota is going to respond to this - it's really a soap opera about transmission control systems. It might end soon, and there's way more heat than light in this Forum, to be sure. But there is some light. Loved your analysis of the people posting here. Keep it up - please. We need a fresh perspective.

future1

Wow, lovely forum -- and I thought I was the only one who took the Lexus transmission straight to the heart.

I am posting here because we were discussing the Lexus transmission in, well, the Edmund's Lexus ES330 Forum, and I posted the link to the April 1st Lexus TSB. Then all hell broke loose here in this forum -- apparently many people here have been pursuing perfection very passionately. Someone from this forum asked me about the authenticity of that TSB.

Here a few thing that I wanted to clarify:

1. I own a 2005 Lexus ES330, bought it in Feb 2005. I was initially interested in the 2005 Avalon (which has the same-coded U151E transmission as Lexus ES330 and certain Camry, Solara, Highlander, and Sienna models), but after test driving it, I found the throttle not responsive enough. So I figured if both ES330 and the new Avalon have the same problem, I'll go with the Lexus. I should also state that most people in the Avalon's forum disagree with me, as they believe that Avalon is perfectly smooth and responsive.

2. I found the April 1st TSB in question in another Lexus forum. Can't post a link, because it's against this board policy, but I guess you can figure it from these two words: club lexus. Hope that the host of this forum lets this through, considering how much interest it generated. Maybe we can all figure this out.

3. I have no idea how genuine this TSB is, but I think it's unlikely someone would invest their time to fabricate something like this.

4. I have not yet had a chance to run it by my dealership, but I will pay them a visit this Saturday. Will report here after that.

5. I'll try to contact the person who posted this TSB in the other forum and figure out where this information came from. Will update here once I know more.

Fair enough?
Future1.

bkinblk

future1- Thanks for the update. Please read my post #921. Today, I called a large Toyota dealer in California. Service guy said he was aware of the new revision, but they were not reprogramming customers cars until they are positive it is an effective "fix". It will be interesting to review other posters experiences and hopefully, find we are moving in the right direction for those of us with the U151E transmission.

kreativ

josh5, I fail to see why someone would create a fake TSB. What benefit would it be? I wonder if your Lexus dealer is just unaware of it yet.

I bet we have all seen incidents where a dealer denied the existance of a TSB, only later to have it (suprisingly) appear.

The problem when people say they spoke to their Lexus dealership is that they usually only speak to one or two people, neither of which is usually the person you'd want to talk to for a recently-released update like this. Did the person at the dealership he went to even take the time to pull up the TSB on the computer?

This has happened to me a few times. It's usually an unwillingness of the service advisor(s) to look into the matter further, with an "if I don't know about it, it doesn't exist" attitude. I don't even bother talking to them now about technical matters...I talk to the tech directly and have him relay to the service advisor what needs to be done.

bkinblk

Good question. Personally, I talked to the Lexus shop foreman who walked me back to the service bay where he brought all the TSB's pertaining to the ES. At a Toyota dealership, I knew the shop foreman, and we went on a road test in my car with the scanner hooked up. On the call I made today, I did only speak to a Lexus service writer at the largest Toyota dealership, so take it for what it's worth. I am only trying to gather as much information as possible, and with the help of the two forums, separate possible fact from possible misinformation. I hope it helps

kreativ

My post right after yours was actually concerning the situation in which someone at his dealership told him he had a "fake" TSB (the bold italics is a quote of someone else's previous post - I probably didn't make that too clear). So I'm sorry if it seemed like I was calling out your previous post. Anyways, you've provided good information and you actually know a Lexus tech who has done the update. Sounds like you're connected to the right person (i.e. the shop foreman) at both Toyota and Lexus dealerships.

future1

I got a response from a fellow who initially posted the TSB in another forum. He said "I got it from http://techinfo.lexus.com, for $10/day I had access to TSBs, repair manuals, among other things".

scoti1

future1,

Thanks for clearing that up so quickly!

So, it looks like the TSB revision for the ES300/330 is likely the real thing.

It also appears that the Post Gazette article, which implies that Toyota/Lexus has a software upgrade for all the the 5-speed automatic transmissions is a little misleading.

I am looking forward to hearing from the ES300/330 owners to see if this does the trick! I know with the previous upgrades that initially the drivers felt like it fixed the problem, but the old hesitating ways returned. If you read through the Transmission Problems in ES300? forum at the time of the release of the first TSB, there are some owners who initially reported positive results but later changed their tune when hesitation returned. I think it took several months and several 1000's of miles of driving before the condition returned, so if initial results are positive, that will be good, but realistically, it may take some time to determine if it is The Fix.

ecotrklvr

Hey all -

future1 showed us the link for the Lexus tech info. It's not so widely known, this tech info site. I found out about the parallel site for Toyota a few months ago, and it's helped me tremendously.

Please not that there is no TSB for this issue on Toyota yet, but everything else about your toyota is there. And the TSB should be there soon.

Toyota's is link title

Now that I'm on a roll, Lexus' is link title

Now that I looked, they seem to be the same site - not so strange, really - Toyota being the parent company for both marques, as well as Scion.

scoti1

Thought some of you contemplating arbitration or lemon law would be interested in this reproting from the ES300/ES330 discussion:

#4903 of 4907 Re: ES 330 Transmission [scoti1] by lepflorida Apr 27, 2005 (3:29 pm)
Reply | E-mail Msg

Thanks for your advice Scoti1. Lexus has agreed to buy me out of my lease of a year and a half before the lemon law process went to arbitration. The only charge is a Florida required mileage charge, which I will gladly pay. Lexus is expected to pick-up my ES330 within 30 days. Thanks!

bkinblk

That's good information. I still have hope that there is a fix forthcoming. I would rather not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

scoti1

I hope a fix is eminent, too. However, it sounds like they have been working on a fix to no avail for at least 3 years now. It is disappointing that some are succeeding with a buy back while others are not. This matter should be handled consistently by Toyota. Not by who has the sharpest lawyers, the better speaking skills to present their arguments, or the kindest arbitrators.

lmacmil

Picked up this 2005 SE-V6 3 weeks ago. Essentially the same powertrain as my wife's 2004 Highlander. The hesitation seems less noticeable in mine than hers. In fact, if I wasn't looking for it, I probably wouldn't have noticed it at all. Certainly doesn't seem to downshift any slower than the 2000 Olds Intrigue I just sold.

Could it be because I drive a little more agressively and the tranny has adapted to my style or have there been some programming changes to make it less noticeable?

cam2003

Brought my car back to dealer yesterday regarding non-response transmission. I had my car re-programmed last Oct at 17K. I found big improvement after ECM calibration. Now at 20K, the problem comes back just like before.
The dealer said they would check. One hour later they called me at home and said they found nothing wrong with my transmission :mad: . They asked if I am the only driver (yes I am). Then they started to explain the car learned my driving habit and I should drive more aggressive...blah blah...
They would charge me 1hr labour if the ECM got reset because this item was not in Toyota warranty. I called Toyota Canada and complained about it. Later on, the dealer agreed to reset ECM without charge.
This morning when I picked up the car, I found nothing change for transmission. Probably the guy just lied to me about reset ECM.
Well, it's total waste my time with the dealer. :mad:

bkinblk

Sounds like a familiar and frustrating story. However, I believe that it proves that with the proper recalibration or correct software, this car could perform as it should. I hope Toyota fast-tracks the so-called "fix" and this forum becomes nothing but a fond memory.

scoti1

You can still find reports of some 2005 vehicles that still have the problem. The problem does not seem to be noticeable in every vehicle for some reason. You may have gotten lucky on your new purchase (or unlucky on your 2004, if you want to look at it that way ). Hope you continue to have smooth driving in your new ride.

xpfshost

After reading up to page 10 (after which my eyes were almost permanently crossed), I hadn't noticed reading of the hesitation problem with a 4-cylinder + 5-speed auto tranny. Did I miss something? I just purchased a '05 Camry LE Auto and was wondering if anyone had noticed the problem in this type of car. Thanks!

xpfshost

kreativ

Maybe with the 4 cylinder, the emissions requirements can still be met without fudging up the transmission behavior? I can't say I've seen anyone with a Toyota 4cyl./5spd combination complain about the transmission either. The Solara 4cyl. has also moved to a 5 speed transmission for '06 model year.

bkinblk

That's a good point. I have not seen any posts with complaints about the 5 speed trans in the 4 cylinder. A couple of reasons may be possible. One is that the 5 speed with the 4 cylinder started with the 2005 model, so we may not have heard from any owners. The other reason is the one you suggested (there is no problem). If anyone with a 2005 model 4 cylinder is reading this forum, please let us know if you have had any hesitation problems.

wwest

Did the 2002, 2003, ES300 have the new (5 speed??) transaxle (as in the 2004 RX330) or did it have the old transaxle like my 2001 AWD RX300?

My reason for asking is that the August 2003 TSB makes it quite clear that those earlier ES300's had/have the exact same engine hesitation symptom as is being described in newer FWD V6 engined Toyota and Lexus vehicles.

So it appears that the engine hesitation is not unique to the newer transaxles, unless the 2002 ES300 already had the new (5 speed?) transaxle.

Anyone know for sure?

wwest

Answered my own question.

Just read Liz Kim's review of the 2002 ES300 right here at Edmunds.

The new 5 speed transaxle was introduced in the 2002 ES300. Two of the reviews make mention of the downshift delay, "car seems confused." Couldn't find any mention of DBW, e-throttle.

So the engine hesitation symptom as "we"(***) understand or define it is seemingly "tied" to the new 5 speed transaxle.

Just confirmed, the 2002 ES300 was DBW, e-throttle.

*** WE = those with Toyota/Lexus FWD V6 vehicles.

happycamry

Yes, there have been several posts in the Camry forums on 2005s with the problem. We have a five week old 2005 Camry LE 4 cylinder that now has 1K miles. It's very slugglsh when accelerating after being stopped at a red light and shifts roughly as it then shifts into the next gear. (second or third?) It doesn't do it every time, but often enough that it's quite annoying. It's like the car is holding itself back and I've read on Edmunds forums of similar complaints. At higher speeds it's generally pretty smooth but occasionally feels like it goes intro neutral for a second or two when accelerating when the car is at about 38-42 mph. I'm also hoping for a software fix. Any advice or similar experiences out there???

wwest

Apparently lots of FWD V6 5-speed transaxle Toyota and Lexus owners are hoping for a software fix. One hasn't been forthcoming since the 2002 ES300 was introduced in late 2001 so I suspect the issue is hopeless.

Toyota and Lexus would not let this issue build in the public eye if a software fix would do the job. Since it goes all the way back to late 2001 and Toyota/Lexus have not come up with a fix it must be a regulatory issue somehow.

But the real question is why did they continue to build more of the same??

scoti1

Why do they continue to build more of the same? Can only be that they don't know how/can't fix the problem, period. It is my opinion that the alleged software upgrade is simply a placebo.

wwest

Their statistician told them that court awards for the small number of deaths and injuries wouldn't cost nearly as much, in dollars and PR, as a full across the board recall campaign.

NUMBER$

Plus, how do you go about proving that the engine hesitation led to your injuries, led alone a loved one's death.

Look at all the naysayers here at Edmunds that are likely to populate the jury pool.

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt you or anyone could ever prove such a claim. That's why it's not a great tactic. They'll slaughter you on that one.

bkinblk

There is definately a strong current of pessimism lately on this forum. Does anyone really believe that there is no hope for a fix as promised? I don't buy into the conspiracy theory.

Mr_Shiftright

I'm not pessimistic myself and I think anyone who really looks hard at Toyota's record will not be pessimistic. I'd bet big money on Toyota. It's not solely a technical challenge as much as Toyota coming to understand (and believe) that there IS a problem, and exactly where the problem lay. Is it ALL in the electronics? Is driver behavior related? What percentage of cars are affected? Is it software or hardware? All this takes time to unravel, especially in big dinosaur-like companies. slow and steady.....

scoti1

Yeah, I can guess you can say I am pessimistic and I am sure that the bottom line is a major motivator in whatever they end up doing about it, conspiracy or not.

Why am I pessimistic? I agree with Wwest's point that they have been working on this since at least 2002 and if it was easy to fix (as you would expect with a software issue), it would have been fixed by now. That does't mean that they aren't on the brink of an earthshattering discovery that will solve the problem tomorrow, but the track record so far on this problem is not good. That leads to pessimism. I would label myself as "hopeful, but pessimistic".

bkinblk

Hey-- but I'm running out of time. I only have 34 more months on my 36 month lease!

Mr_Shiftright

"I would label myself as "hopeful, but pessimistic". '

That makes you a skeptic. A skeptic can have his mind changed, a pessimist never can.

scoti1

Is that a definition? You are the writer so I will defer to you. I am deeply distrustful of Toyota at this point and uncertain of their ability to develop a solution to the problem. I am still hopeful for a solution (i.e., I most certainly could be wrong in regards to my distrust and uncertainty), but I am not holding my breath

wwest

That back in the early days of the RX300 (possibly earlier) they started using the torque converter lockup clutch for more than just OD.

Both my 2000 and 2001 AWD RX300 Lexus shop manuals seem to indicate that the lockup clutch is engaged anytime the vehicle is in cruise mode, no "high" level of torque needed from the engine or the torque converter/multiplier for acceleration. Disengaged only during acceleration, shift sequencing, and to prevent engine stalling during coastdown or slowing to a stop.

I have no question that using the lockup clutch in this manner, along with upshifting during coastdown or slowing to a stop, would have resulted in a significant level of additional fuel economy along with muchly improved emissions.

But.

Somewhere along the line they discovered that using the lockup clutch in this way, and/or upshifting the transaxles during coastdown, was to the detriment of the frictional surface of the clutch pack(s).

The first RX300 was shipped in 1998 and so the new fuel economy and emissions numbers are well entrenched in the public mind by the time these transaxles begin to show signs of premature failures. And how do you go about telling the public, the EPA and CARB that you screwed up and now you must recall a Gazillon Toyota's and Lexii to fix the transaxle firmware.

And oh, by the by, a simple firmware fix is available (only use lockup for OD) but would result in higher emissions and ~10% lowered fuel economy for this entire fleet.

So, by 2001 the engineers came up with a quick and dirty solution. No time to road test.

DBW, e-throttle.

"If we can prevent the engine from developing high levels of torque while these clutches are engaging and disengaging then their frictional surfaces will not wear out prematurely...."

What is that movie that's out on DVD now....??

Something about unintended consequences.....

So, if I am correct then a FIX would of necessity apply to the entire Toyota and Lexus FWD fleet from at least 1998 forward.

Good luck seeing a fix this century.

scoti1

Let's assume that what you firmly believe is true. The most economical solution could be to modify firmware as you suggested, so the vehicles only use the lock-up for OD. Then Toyota would pay the EPA fine for not complying with emission/fuel economy requirements. I am assuming fines would be on a per-vehilce basis. They may need to also give some compensation to the owners for their lowered fuel economy (free oil changes?). This may not be such a great solution from Toyota's perspective if the problem is widespread, but if it is small, why not? Whether it is easily proven or not, it just seems intuitive to me that many of the situations described have put drivers in a dangerous position that they would not have been in if the car had accelerated as expected, which makes it imperative to fix the existing models and not just future ones.

bkinblk

This Friday, I have an appt with the regional rep in my area. He will road test the car, and I'm sure, report that the car performs "normally" and suggest a reset of the EPU. Toyota's "Customer Experience" tells me that I must first go through this charade in order to file for arbitration. My ace in the hole might be that I immediately recognized the problem with the transmission and attempted to return the car 3 days after purchase. I now have about a ream of material supporting my position. Who knows, maybe it will help.

wwest

Just what are the penalties and fines for requiring a recall that puts the ENTIRE FLEET of FWD vehicles out of spec. with the EPA, CAFE, and CARB regulations and standards of the time.

Might CARB actually require junking the vehicles??

Anyone know the answers?

And if you happen to be a Japanese company....

How do you bring yourself to admit that each and every vehicle you shipped since 98(??) that doesn't have the the hesitation symptom is subject to premature transaxle failure? And how do you go about admitting that you knowingly and willingly put your vehicle owners lives at risk even after you come to the realization that some instances of engine hesitation could result in serious bodily injuries or even death.