Not a "naysayer". Not a "shill". Not a "Toyota Rep"--PR, or any other kind. Nor deserving of any of the other uncomplimentary remarks directed my way either. A Toyota Rep indeed!! Kind of a dumb question really. Why would you even ask, and what difference would it make anyway? Or was it just another subtle attempt to provoke? (It didn't BTW) Read the profile--it's the truth. Or is that something you aren't comfortable with?
You know, we have those "emotorcons" (hey, I don't write this stuff) down below to let people know you are just teasing. Try to use them please because it is so easy to misread the "tone" of posts. I have to delete anything smacking of "bickering" and that's a shame because the whole post has to go, when it might have some good info in it.
Maybe he's just a healthy skeptic....a "prove it" kind of person.
This type of "yes it is" / "no it isn't" always occurs when a good deal of the info is anecdotal. By "anecdotal", the true meaning of the term is "not subjected to rigorous scientific testing"----anecdotal doesn't mean "not true".
Nor does it mean it didn't happen to you, nor does it mean it didn't happen to your service manager....seems to me the issue is (for some people) how extensive is it....1% of all Lexi, 3%....100%?
I think that's what he was driving at, if I read his posts correctly.
You know it's like casualty rates for a soldier....if we who are not in the war hear "only 1% casualty rate" we say...hey great not a problem....but if you ARE the casualty, the casualty rate is 100%.
So you can look at defects like this from different points of view.
Most people who have this problem are just trying to get it resolved. The pervasiveness of the problem is of little concern (other than the fact that there is strength in numbers) if you are one of the 1% or 20% or whatever. To belittle someones problem, because in ones opinion is not widespread, is insulting. To claim any anecdotal report is "fiction" is insulting and does nothing to contribute to the discussion or finding a solution. Most of us are adults with at least some form of computer savvy and are well aware of the pros and cons of the internet without the constant reminders that people can post false reports - this makes it appear that the previous poster is being accused of this.
(i was asked to "Ease up on emoticons, huh?" appears only two are allowed, lol)
Oh I think you can post more emotorcons if you wish :shades: but it can be overdone :sick:
Well as Host I see your point and it's well taken----if I may interject, I think the "conflict" arises when the occasional person WITH the real problem casts it as a catastrophe for Toyota, as if cars were dropping off the road left and right. This does seem to be perhaps a bit hyperbolic. Maybe that's what ticks off someone else, I dunno.
But I agree 100%, any sober complaint here should be treated with respect, absolutely.
My standing advice for any type of complaint with a car has always been for the victim to remain calm, get your facts in order, records in order and be doggedly persistent. I mean, "strength in numbers" FEELS good and all, but if you think about it, the battle is won at the arbitration table or on the phone in hand to hand combat. If you rely on media pressure to affect an outcome, that is a very very long term strategy IMO.
Wow :surprise: I got that message after just two emoticons earlier. Maybe they just need to be spread out in the post :shades: Seems to be working. LOL
I promise to stop..
Editting to add, I just noticed that these are eMOTORcons. just got that. Edmunds should be embarrassed
The issue of transmission and engine hesitation in Toyota/Lexus has already been acknowledged by Toyota. All you skeptics need to find something else to defend. Toyota spent their time and money coming up with fixes, and are just now beginning the difficult period of implementing them. There's never been a need to prove anything to anyone, except to Toyota, and that's been done.
I'm not surprised that people who depend on automotive manufacturers for even part of their income, would defend them even "after the bell". I don't know why anyone else is surprised about that. I just take it all with a bit of salt, or Shiraz, depending on the time of day. Let's not put those people in a position to jeopardize their income, or those of their families.
Just realize that these forums are open to anyone. They're a great asset to us all. People post for a wide variety of reasons. Some don't have the hesitation, and won't believe anything written about it, no matter what. But who cares? Changing someone's opinion here means nothing, compared to convincing Toyota. Happily, that's battle's over now. Thanks to all of you that spent their time in dealing with the mess.
Now that most (Please!!) of the acrimonious rhetoric has been indulged in, I hope you'll allow an opportunity to respond. Mert2 says: "Coming here and dismissing everyone's complaints?" This is just bit hyperbolic IMO. Hasn't happened and I think you know it. The main issues I'm skeptical about, (and have stated repeatedly) are (1) Those who claim the problem is across the board--I don't think that's entirely true; (2) That it's a safety issue--so far no one has made a substantive case; (3) Delay intervals are 2,3, or more seconds--I see this as more hyperbolic embellishment; and finally (4) Some posters evidently don't want ANY diversity of opinion allowed in these forums--IMO, that's a real problem! Mr. Shiftright says: "A healthy skeptic....a "prove it" kind of person?" Absolutely correct. So is it a crime? Thanks Shifty. Mr. Shiftright also says: "I think that's what he was driving at, if I read his posts correctly?" Yes, that's what I'm driving at!! Thanks again Shifty. Scoti1 says:"To claim any anecdotal report is "fiction" is insulting?" Hyperbole perhaps? Statement wasn't made to that effect by me or anyone else!! Scoti1 also says: "To belittle someones problem, because in one's opinion it is not widespread, is insulting?" Scoti, do you consider all skepticism as belittling or insulting--or is this just more hyperbole? You always seem to push the "Insulting" button whenever things aren't going your way. Ecotrklvr says: "Just realize that these forums are open to anyone. People post for a wide variety of reasons...." Wise words IMO.
Having said my piece, I hope to continue here when and if, and I certainly don't plan on going away--as some apparently would like to see happen. Now maybe it's time to get back on topic???
In my conversation with the service manager and the parts guy at Lexus of Memphis I was told the TSB for the ES330 wasn't really working, customers still complaining, and until it did the TSB for the RX wouldn't be available.
My diagnostic ECM check gave me a 'code 27' which refers to the above sensor. The sensor is expensive, so before replacing it I wonder if the problem may be a corroded contact or open circuit rather then the sensor itself. Also, is anyone familiar with replacing the sub oygen sensor?? My guess is that it could be difficult to remove nuts and bolts that have been roasted on a regular basis for the last 13 years. Any comments would be much appreciated.
I agree with what you say. The majority of the people on this forum have a problem that should not be in a quality vehicle. I for one dont care about technical analysis, or legal mumbo jumbo. I just want my HL to shift like my other Toyotas (2 Avalons and a Tacoma). If these forums helped Toyota to get motivated then great. This is the same Toyota that stonewalled on the 3 liter engine gel until pushed. Its never about the problem its all about the resolution. The # of people on these forums compared with the # of vehicles is insignificant. The apparent fact that Toyota has responded with TSBs is a miracle. I will take advantage of the TSBs at next servicing, and cross my fingers.
I think I'm done. Had the TSB done last Friday, and so far, I think it shifts worse than before. There is more "jerkiness" from a dead stop through accelleration, (as if the engine retards just after the shift), the same hesitation, and the same indecisive shifting, and the same unhappy owner. I faxed the performed TSB to the NCDS who will set another arbitration date. I wish I had good news for the diligent posters in this forum who are earnest in their quest for a "fix". However at this point in my journey, I'm ready to jump on my bicycle and pedal away.
Sorry to hear that. Makes me rethink my idea to have TSB done. I have been living with slow shifting and jerky low speed starts for over a year and this tranny has trained me how to drive it. I dont like it but I can live with it. It will shorten my HL experience and give me cause to look elsewhere.
Sorry about your bad news. What a frustrating process this has been for you.
With Lemon Law :lemon: buybacks, they usually want you to let the dealer perform 3 or 4 repair attempts. I wonder if NCDS will want to see more than just one attempt. I would recommend at minimum, go back to the dealership and tell them the fix didn't work, just to get it on record.
How many times have posters told of tech rep responses:"That's the way it's supposed to work" Lots of times, right? I recently spent some quality time with a good friend who works for an Auto Manufacturer--a senior person in design and engineering. We talked about the "Problem." Guess what? He tells me Auto Transmissions ARE designed to "delay" shifting--or as some owners put it "Shift Sluggishly". It is more noticeable on the 5 and 6 speed versions for no other reason than there are more shift points than the 3 and 4 speed models. The newer trannys are designed to shift "softly" to give the public what they apparently want--quiet, mushy, barely noticeable operation -- for the "average" driver who apparently values those characteristics. But the "average" driver drives less aggressively than others--slower accelleration habits, less speed changes while driving, less aggressive braking, etc., and the delays or sluggish shift points don't bother them--it's what they expect in a car. The more aggressive driver will notice the sluggishness, because their driving style accentuates the design characteristics inherent in the newer trannys. These drivers are asking the tranny to perform beyond its design limits, ie, asking it to make shift changes to another gear before the previous gear cluch is fully released. The result will often be a harsh "jolt" when the partially released clutch lets go and the next one engages, This type of premature shift change will actually cause faster wear patterns in the clutches BTW, so all you guys who complain about delay under heavy accelleration are likely killing your tranny more quickly!! Apparently there is a mechanical fix which will correct the sluggish shifting--by replacing the standard clutch friction springs with heavier ones, the delay can be eliminated--BUT much harsher shifting will happen and most people don't want that either. Apparetly the electronic fix being touted here MAY modulate shift patterns slightly, but apparently not sufficiently to eliminate completely the designed in delay we are hearing about. It's one of the few options the Manufacturer has to modulate shift patterns without completely rebuilding the tranny with heavier friction springs. Manufacturers are NOT, however,going to provide a wide selection of clutch friction springs to rebuild every customer's tranny to adopt to their specific driving style. My friend is NOT a Toyota employee--he works for one of the Big Three--and says every manufacturer today is designing the same kind of sluggishness into their 5 and 6 speed trannys. So what's my point? For those considering arbitration, if you are trying to show that your tranny isn't performing as designed, you've got a tough slog ahead. Perhaps those tech reps have been telling the truth all along.
pilot130. by putting the word "problem" in quotes, i'm sure you are risking being viewed as invalidating the posters that are experiencing a real problem...
that written, if what your friend says is true, we'd be hearing about similar problems across vehicle makes / manufacturers. while there have been some isolated reports from others with non-Lexus / non-Toyota vehicles experiencing odd shifting behaviors, the totality of reports just don't seem to fit the assertion you or your friend are making.
That's what I was told. He should know because he designs 'em. If you don't want to accept his explanation, that's fine with me. In my opinion, it makes a lot of sense. BTW, there are more than just "isolated" reports with other makes--look around.
Re "invalidating" posters claims? Horse pucky--you know that's not true, and it certainly isn't why I put the quotation marks there-- or is that just more hyperbole?? Next thing you''ll be accusing me of insulting posters by wishing them a "Good Day".
Scoti1--be advised use of quotation marks with the word *problem* is not permitted. It may invalidate poster's complaints!
PS. Yup, it's anecdodal and hearsay--I admit it. (unlike others!). But it may have some effect on Arbitration Litigants, and that's why I raised the point. They should be careful in challenging the "That's the way it's supposed to work" defense. It could blow up on them. Even you should appreciate that word of caution. It was intended to help, not hinder. But you chose to diss it. Not surprising.
doesn't know XXXX about automatic transmissions. The clutch "springs" are used, ONLY, to release the clutch frictional surfaces. Hydraulic pressure is used to engage the clutch packs. That's what the dutycycle, PWM, modulated pressure solenoid is used for, to "adjust" the hydraulic pressure, allowing "soft" engagement for non-aggressive shifts vs quick engagement for aggressive throttle openings.
And you don't have to be an aggressive driver in order to have the need to be aggressive with the gas pedal in order to be able to merge into traffic. Eastbound on SR520 before the evergreen point bridge, to name just one place in MILLIONS.
The only inordinate delay the six speed in my Porsche C4 ever experiences is the result of my own indecisiveness.
But you are perfectly correct on one point. The delay is the result of the need to prevent premature failures of the newer transaxles as is happening in the earlier 4 speed automatic transaxles.
I also can't believe the aggressive driver theory. There are instances of people reporting hesitation in some vehicles and not in others. If your friend's theory was accurate, wouldn't an aggressive driver feel the sluggishness and hesitation in every vehicle they drove? It isn't happening that way.
You are being overly harsh with your assessment of my friend's knowledge and experience. Should you be considered any more correct than he is? He is what I said he is, with no embellishment, I assure you. He didn't say springs were used both ways as you suggest. All he said was the springs can be replaced (he also said they can also be taken out entirely as desired), in order to eliminate the delay DESIGNED into these latter day trannys. But the result will be harsher shift patterns. He also said as you did, that delays designed into these trannys is as much to protect them as it is to satisfy customer preferences. I also believe your Porsche transmission is designed with much more sporty shift characteristics than a family sedan or SUV (including 4WD's), so I would fully expect it to shift more aggressively--with no hesitation at all Using a Posche in comparison to Family Cruisers is like comparing a 737 to an F22 and postulating why they're different. Cheers.
Good advice. I will take it back one more time to show due diligence. Strange, the dealership did not even road test the car after the TSB was performed. As for my driving habits, I drive this car just like I drove me 2000 V6, perhaps more aggressive than some, but not unreasonable. There have been posters in the past that catagorize themselves as older and "not a lead-foot", who stated that they will "just get used to it."
I don't expect you, nor did I ask you to believe the aggressive driver theory. I am obliged though, to remind you of your earlier "Anecdotal and Hearsay" comment directed at my post about it. I take it that was intended to discredit what my friend said. What's good for the goose is good for the gander then. Re those people you say are "reporting hesitation in some vehicles and not in others". Do your sentiments re "anecdotal and hearsay" apply to these as well? Cheers.
There have been posters in the past that catagorize themselves as older and "not a lead-foot", who stated that they will "just get used to it."
Yes..I am older, fifty something...I can't believe amn getting that old...oh well....i used to drive very agresssively, but have moderated my thinking (in a lot of areas) in my old days. LOL....
I have an 03 V6 Highlander, and an 05 V6 Highlander. I have been actively reading about this issue for a very long time, every day....and wanted to be sure it wasn't a problem for me before I bought my 05 in march. It wasn't, and still isn't
I switch back and forth between the 03 and the 05 Highlander regularly, and can say without a doubt that they shift differently. Period. The 03 shifts a little smoother, but the 05 is fine for me....I have not experienced any hesitation in the 05. I suspect it is there, but not noticed by my driving style, or my wife's, btw.
I have eaglerly watched for the FIX, justt because i like to have the most up to date software, but have decided to wait, as i enjoy driving my 05 more than the 03. (better mpg, and more power.)
bkinblk...I am not at all finding fault with your feelings with your Camry's shifting. I can relate....as I have also been extremely unhappy with prior purchases that others have enjoyed....Good luck with your attempts....I hope you can get the car fixed, cause thay are very nice vehicles.
No, I have the RX330 transaxle shop/repair manual right here. But I don't need to refer to it to be sure of my response. Springs are used ONLY to release the clutch surfaces and hydraulic pressure ONLY is used to overcome the spring pressure, and more, to force the clutch frictional surfaces into contact.
Just think of it in the same way the old style drum brakes worked.
Maybe I am being a bit too hard on your friend since you do seem to have a perchance to hear things in a way that only fit your model.
For instance I NEVER said that springs were used in both directions.
The six speed in my C4 is manual, the Porsche automatic, Tiptronic, is a five speed.
My anecdotal/hearsay comment was not intended to discredit. It was tongue in cheek. You descredit other posts because they are anecdotal but get a bit touchy when others suggest that yours are the same. My suggestion is that you try to have a more open mind when you read other's anecdotal reports if you expect us to do the same with yours.
So Wwest, what in your learned opinion, would be the result on shift patterns if you replace the clutch springs with stiffer ones, or (better still), remove them entirely?
Oh yes--almost forgot--do you really think comparing a Porsche C4 to a Camry, Highlander, etc., is a fair comparison, or (better still) expecting a Camry, Highlander,etc., to perform like one?
Again, the clutch springs are used to RELEASE the clutches, uncouple the two frictional surfaces. Remove them and the clutches would likely stay engaged long enough to wear prematurely. Stiffer springs would simply result in a quicker uncoupling once the hydraulic pressure holding them engaged is released.
"Guess what? He tells me Auto transmissions ARE designed to "delay" shifting-or as some owners put it "shift sluggishly."".
One of us is confused. The above statement is perfectly correct.
But totally off point.
The discussion here is centered around the period of time BETWEEN SHIFTS, the time period in which the transaxle is presumptively between gears and therefore there can be no motive force applied to the drive wheels.
" It is more noticeable on the 5 and 6 speed versions for no reason other than there are more shift points than the 3 and 4 speed models."
I don't find that shifting my C4 with 6 gears is any more complex than my 93 Ford Ranger, so why should the ECU in the Toyota 5 speed find it so?. And again, here on this thread the discussion seems to be about how long it takes to shift, not the delay involved in the decision to shift.
And please keep in mind that most of the whiners and complainers on this thread are doing so because their previous driving EXPERIENCES are different from what they're encountering with the Toyota and Lexus FWD V6/5-speed combination.
"The above statement is perfectly correct." My main point exactly. Thank you Wwest.. At least we agree--for once. As I said earlier, my point about the designed in delay was to alert anyone contemplating an arbitration, and who might be confronted with that claim by the manufacturer. Apparently it is engineered in on purpose, so when the manufacturer (or service technician) says "That's the way it's supposed to work", they're not misleading you..
But you didn't fully answer one other question, namely how would shift patterns change if (a) Stiffer springs were installed, and (b) Springs were removed entirely. You kinda sidestepped on that one. Let me answer it--at least as far as (b) is concerned. Shifts would be faster and more aggressive, but wear would occur faster. (well, you got the wear part right!) Now tell us more about (a).
PS Just a piece of friendly advice. It is unwise to refer to those posting about the problem as whiners and complainers. I was accused of it and a complaint was made about me, but in reality I had just replied to someone elses post with that heading on it. Funny thing--no one complained about the originator of the phrase. Go figure. You're welcome BTW.
Aw shucks!! Your post comes as both good news and bad news: First the good news--every senior citizen appreciates being considered younger than he/she really is. Nine years old is more than I deserve but I'll take anything I can get at this stage in life! Now the bad news--Skepticism--some of which is my doing--has more or less kept this topic alive. Looks like you'll have to find a surrogate (more mature?) skeptic to respond to, or interest in this topic may decline.
Please accept my sincere apologies too Wwest--For failing to meet your avowed standard of maturity in knowledge, wisdom, experience, and debating skills--altho' I must admit I never figured you as a quitter. Thanks too for the Starbucks Latte offer, however a nine year old should be more into slushies. Coffee can be harmful at that age! G'day.
wwest, I just did a quick advanced search using your name for posts on Edmunds over the last week. I can say first, you are prolific and second and most importantly you are also consistent in your efforts in trying to provide helpful advice and theories to Toyota and Lexus owners. Keep it up!
bkinblk, Hope you will keep on posting. Let us know what the dealer says when you bring it back in.
Blaming the problem on aggressive driving is a cop out. In most of our large urban areas, aggressive driving is necessary for survival. To intentionally build a car that cannot stand up to these conditions should be criminal. Saying that "they all do it" or "it is operating as designed" is also a cop out and does not mean that it isn't a problem. Based on some of wwest's theories, it sounds like this characteristic was indeed intentional, however, they probably did not thoroughly test it under all driving scenarios. As has been stated before, it if isn't a problem, why is Toyota trying to fix it?
A couple of corrections to your post Scoti: First, no one has "Blamed the problem on aggressive driving" as you have stated. I believe the statement should be amended to show what was really said, namely "Aggressive driving habits may accentuate the delay designed into trannys." In other words, it's already there, aggressive driving habits may make it more noticeable for those who choose to drive that way. Also, suggesting that one must drive aggressively to survive--most would agree that's completely wrong headed thinking,and the most appropriate rebuttal to it is that you may believe it's right, but you may also end up *dead right* by choosing to adopt that philosophy. People who drive aggressively have a tendency to get hurt-or hurt others--and even you must admit accident stats strongly support that fact. To me that's a far more serious problem than the one we're talking about in this forum. Furthermore I strongly disagree with your characterization of such a design as "criminal". Perhaps you're just venting a little, but describing it as "criminal" strikes me as tending toward alarmist hyperbole. On the other hand, advocating aggressive driving could easily be considered as such--if not criminal, pretty darn close to it....
Semantics Scoti, and as Wwest would put it--way off point. When one chooses to merge into fast moving freeway traffic, there are two alternatives--it can be done safely by looking for the right opportunity and by using the merge lanes effectively, or they can do it aggressively and just charge in, hoping to get up to speed in time enough to avoid getting run over. Which is the wiser of the two? Now if you're driving a Neon (or any other low powered/slow accellerating vehicle)..........................how do you suppose they manage? Or maybe they should be banned from freeways as having *criminal* intent by virtue of their design?
pilot130- If your in LA, or any other large metropolitan city, you need to keep up with the flow of traffic and at all times, drive defensively. You need a car that reacts instantly (similar to all 40 cars I've owned and over 1400 cars and trucks I've sold as a retired car salesman). If you would like to drive a 77 Olds Delta 88 with a rose on the antenna and feather the gas pedal in the slow lane, then that would be your business. I prefer to drive a car that "knows" what gear it's in and "knows" when to GO. Skeptics should present a valid argument in order for their argument to have any credibility.
I like Neons. Albeit slow, they DO NOT hesitate and DO accelerate when needed. Unlike those sitting in the middle of the freeway waiting to get run over.
Not only in LA or metropolitan city, imagine someone running a red light or stop sign and is going to hit you on the side. You might just need to drive "aggressive" for that moment and the 1-2 seconds of hesitation might be a difference between live and dead. I don't care if my car is totaled or what. I care more for my life and my families.
Okay, a line of cars has filled the acceleration lane, STOPPED!
So, I'm last in line, shall I wait, remain in place, until the cars ahead move out (meantime ticking off all of the impatient drivers behind me, horns blaring!), or should I creep forward like everyone else until there is no acceleration lane left and now I MUST accelerate VERY aggressively in order to quickly match speed and blend into the upcoming space...??
When my wife took in her 2004 Camry for the 30,000 mile factory service, I suggested that she tell them that it would pause before accelerating so that we would have the problem documented before the warranty expired. The car has paused for up to three seconds upon acceleration from day one...but since it's her car and the pause didn't bother her, I had ignored it. The service manager called it a "hesitation" and recommended that she upgrade the service from the normal $105 version to the $366 version in order to solve the problem by undergoing a fuel induction service and an auto transmission flush. She bit and went for it. Of course a fuel injector cleaning and a transmission flush did nothing for the problem. When she came home and night and described that they had called it a "hesitation", I Googled "toyota hesitation acceleration" and came to these boards, where I saw the TSB information. I called the dealership the next morning and asked the service manager if he was aware of a TSB that solved the hesitation problem and he said that he wasn't aware of a problem or of the TSB.. I quoted the TSB number to him (TC005-05 for the 1MZ-FE engine) and he said he would look it up and call me back. Amazingly, he actually called me back and requested that I bring in the car the next morning. Well, they flashed the ECM with the TC005-05 and now the Camry responds normally and will actually burn rubber when you chomp down on the pedal! It's like a new car. Many thanks to this forum. P.S. I'm going to try and get back my $261 that they overcharged me for the "solution", but I know that's an uphill battle that's probably not worth fighting.
I travel routinely to large metro areas by plane and auto--Toronto, Detroit, Chicago, New York, Boston, Miami, etc. Often rent cars when visiting these cities. I'm not at all unfamiliar with traffic in these urban freeway environments. I agree that it's sometimes intimidating. I agree with you that defensive driving is the way to go--but aggressive driving is an accident waiting to happen. I don't do it. It isn't necessary. It isn't wise. One does not *need* a car that reacts instantly or has lightning accelleration. No one does. That's a valid argument. Ask your local emergency response medics. They'll tell you all you want to know about aggressive drivers.
PS My family and I lived in France for three years. You think LA is a tough place for driving? Try Paris!! (Tell us about it--if you survive!)
Comments
BTW, premium fuel was an illusion. Today was a horrible driving day.
I'll probably have the TSB done for my first oil change in a couple thousand miles. Surely it won't make it worse.
Bad news is I had a little fender-bender so if I try to unload it I'd take an even bigger hit. Not satisfied with this car at all.
Not a "shill".
Not a "Toyota Rep"--PR, or any other kind.
Nor deserving of any of the other uncomplimentary remarks directed my way either.
A Toyota Rep indeed!!
Kind of a dumb question really.
Why would you even ask, and what difference would it make anyway?
Or was it just another subtle attempt to provoke? (It didn't BTW)
Read the profile--it's the truth. Or is that something you aren't comfortable with?
thank you
MrShiftright
Host
Most of us are here seeking a resolution, I can't figure out why you're here other than to downplay the problem.
I'm just having a hard time figuring out what you get out of that.
This type of "yes it is" / "no it isn't" always occurs when a good deal of the info is anecdotal. By "anecdotal", the true meaning of the term is "not subjected to rigorous scientific testing"----anecdotal doesn't mean "not true".
Nor does it mean it didn't happen to you, nor does it mean it didn't happen to your service manager....seems to me the issue is (for some people) how extensive is it....1% of all Lexi, 3%....100%?
I think that's what he was driving at, if I read his posts correctly.
You know it's like casualty rates for a soldier....if we who are not in the war hear "only 1% casualty rate" we say...hey great not a problem....but if you ARE the casualty, the casualty rate is 100%.
So you can look at defects like this from different points of view.
Well as Host I see your point and it's well taken----if I may interject, I think the "conflict" arises when the occasional person WITH the real problem casts it as a catastrophe for Toyota, as if cars were dropping off the road left and right. This does seem to be perhaps a bit hyperbolic. Maybe that's what ticks off someone else, I dunno.
But I agree 100%, any sober complaint here should be treated with respect, absolutely.
My standing advice for any type of complaint with a car has always been for the victim to remain calm, get your facts in order, records in order and be doggedly persistent. I mean, "strength in numbers" FEELS good and all, but if you think about it, the battle is won at the arbitration table or on the phone in hand to hand combat. If you rely on media pressure to affect an outcome, that is a very very long term strategy IMO.
I promise to stop..
Editting to add, I just noticed that these are eMOTORcons. just got that. Edmunds should be embarrassed
The issue of transmission and engine hesitation in Toyota/Lexus has already been acknowledged by Toyota. All you skeptics need to find something else to defend. Toyota spent their time and money coming up with fixes, and are just now beginning the difficult period of implementing them. There's never been a need to prove anything to anyone, except to Toyota, and that's been done.
I'm not surprised that people who depend on automotive manufacturers for even part of their income, would defend them even "after the bell". I don't know why anyone else is surprised about that. I just take it all with a bit of salt, or Shiraz, depending on the time of day. Let's not put those people in a position to jeopardize their income, or those of their families.
Just realize that these forums are open to anyone. They're a great asset to us all. People post for a wide variety of reasons. Some don't have the hesitation, and won't believe anything written about it, no matter what. But who cares? Changing someone's opinion here means nothing, compared to convincing Toyota. Happily, that's battle's over now. Thanks to all of you that spent their time in dealing with the mess.
Mert2 says: "Coming here and dismissing everyone's complaints?" This is just bit hyperbolic IMO. Hasn't happened and I think you know it.
The main issues I'm skeptical about, (and have stated repeatedly) are (1) Those who claim the problem is across the board--I don't think that's entirely true; (2) That it's a safety issue--so far no one has made a substantive case; (3) Delay intervals are 2,3, or more seconds--I see this as more hyperbolic embellishment; and finally (4) Some posters evidently don't want ANY diversity of opinion allowed in these forums--IMO, that's a real problem!
Mr. Shiftright says: "A healthy skeptic....a "prove it" kind of person?" Absolutely correct. So is it a crime? Thanks Shifty.
Mr. Shiftright also says: "I think that's what he was driving at, if I read his posts correctly?" Yes, that's what I'm driving at!! Thanks again Shifty.
Scoti1 says:"To claim any anecdotal report is "fiction" is insulting?" Hyperbole perhaps? Statement wasn't made to that effect by me or anyone else!!
Scoti1 also says: "To belittle someones problem, because in one's opinion it is not widespread, is insulting?" Scoti, do you consider all skepticism as belittling or insulting--or is this just more hyperbole? You always seem to push the "Insulting" button whenever things aren't going your way.
Ecotrklvr says: "Just realize that these forums are open to anyone. People post for a wide variety of reasons...." Wise words IMO.
Having said my piece, I hope to continue here when and if, and I certainly don't plan on going away--as some apparently would like to see happen.
Now maybe it's time to get back on topic???
Okay touch gloves and come out smiling :P
Shifty
In my conversation with the service manager and the parts guy at Lexus of Memphis I was told the TSB for the ES330 wasn't really working, customers still complaining, and until it did the TSB for the RX wouldn't be available.
The # of people on these forums compared with the # of vehicles is insignificant.
The apparent fact that Toyota has responded with TSBs is a miracle. I will take advantage of the TSBs at next servicing, and cross my fingers.
With Lemon Law :lemon: buybacks, they usually want you to let the dealer perform 3 or 4 repair attempts. I wonder if NCDS will want to see more than just one attempt. I would recommend at minimum, go back to the dealership and tell them the fix didn't work, just to get it on record.
Lots of times, right?
I recently spent some quality time with a good friend who works for an Auto Manufacturer--a senior person in design and engineering.
We talked about the "Problem."
Guess what? He tells me Auto Transmissions ARE designed to "delay" shifting--or as some owners put it "Shift Sluggishly".
It is more noticeable on the 5 and 6 speed versions for no other reason than there are more shift points than the 3 and 4 speed models.
The newer trannys are designed to shift "softly" to give the public what they apparently want--quiet, mushy, barely noticeable operation -- for the "average" driver who apparently values those characteristics.
But the "average" driver drives less aggressively than others--slower accelleration habits, less speed changes while driving, less aggressive braking, etc., and the delays or sluggish shift points don't bother them--it's what they expect in a car.
The more aggressive driver will notice the sluggishness, because their driving style accentuates the design characteristics inherent in the newer trannys.
These drivers are asking the tranny to perform beyond its design limits, ie, asking it to make shift changes to another gear before the previous gear cluch is fully released.
The result will often be a harsh "jolt" when the partially released clutch lets go and the next one engages,
This type of premature shift change will actually cause faster wear patterns in the clutches BTW, so all you guys who complain about delay under heavy accelleration are likely killing your tranny more quickly!!
Apparently there is a mechanical fix which will correct the sluggish shifting--by replacing the standard clutch friction springs with heavier ones, the delay can be eliminated--BUT much harsher shifting will happen and most people don't want that either.
Apparetly the electronic fix being touted here MAY modulate shift patterns slightly, but apparently not sufficiently to eliminate completely the designed in delay we are hearing about.
It's one of the few options the Manufacturer has to modulate shift patterns without completely rebuilding the tranny with heavier friction springs.
Manufacturers are NOT, however,going to provide a wide selection of clutch friction springs to rebuild every customer's tranny to adopt to their specific driving style.
My friend is NOT a Toyota employee--he works for one of the Big Three--and says every manufacturer today is designing the same kind of sluggishness into their 5 and 6 speed trannys.
So what's my point?
For those considering arbitration, if you are trying to show that your tranny isn't performing as designed, you've got a tough slog ahead.
Perhaps those tech reps have been telling the truth all along.
by putting the word "problem" in quotes, i'm sure you are risking being viewed as invalidating the posters that are experiencing a real problem...
that written, if what your friend says is true, we'd be hearing about similar problems across vehicle makes / manufacturers. while there have been some isolated reports from others with non-Lexus / non-Toyota vehicles experiencing odd shifting behaviors, the totality of reports just don't seem to fit the assertion you or your friend are making.
If you don't want to accept his explanation, that's fine with me.
In my opinion, it makes a lot of sense.
BTW, there are more than just "isolated" reports with other makes--look around.
Re "invalidating" posters claims? Horse pucky--you know that's not true, and it certainly isn't why I put the quotation marks there-- or is that just more hyperbole??
Next thing you''ll be accusing me of insulting posters by wishing them a "Good Day".
Actually, this is the fix being touted by Toyota for the "Problem".
BTW, your report is anecdotal and heresay, to use some of your own terminology. :P
It may invalidate poster's complaints!
PS.
Yup, it's anecdodal and hearsay--I admit it. (unlike others!).
But it may have some effect on Arbitration Litigants, and that's why I raised the point.
They should be careful in challenging the "That's the way it's supposed to work" defense. It could blow up on them.
Even you should appreciate that word of caution. It was intended to help, not hinder.
But you chose to diss it. Not surprising.
And you don't have to be an aggressive driver in order to have the need to be aggressive with the gas pedal in order to be able to merge into traffic. Eastbound on SR520 before the evergreen point bridge, to name just one place in MILLIONS.
The only inordinate delay the six speed in my Porsche C4 ever experiences is the result of my own indecisiveness.
But you are perfectly correct on one point. The delay is the result of the need to prevent premature failures of the newer transaxles as is happening in the earlier 4 speed automatic transaxles.
He is what I said he is, with no embellishment, I assure you.
He didn't say springs were used both ways as you suggest.
All he said was the springs can be replaced (he also said they can also be taken out entirely as desired), in order to eliminate the delay DESIGNED into these latter day trannys.
But the result will be harsher shift patterns.
He also said as you did, that delays designed into these trannys is as much to protect them as it is to satisfy customer preferences.
I also believe your Porsche transmission is designed with much more sporty shift characteristics than a family sedan or SUV (including 4WD's), so I would fully expect it to shift more aggressively--with no hesitation at all
Using a Posche in comparison to Family Cruisers is like comparing a 737 to an F22 and postulating why they're different.
Cheers.
I am obliged though, to remind you of your earlier "Anecdotal and Hearsay" comment directed at my post about it. I take it that was intended to discredit what my friend said.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander then.
Re those people you say are "reporting hesitation in some vehicles and not in others".
Do your sentiments re "anecdotal and hearsay" apply to these as well?
Cheers.
Yes..I am older, fifty something...I can't believe amn getting that old...oh well....i used to drive very agresssively, but have moderated my thinking (in a lot of areas) in my old days. LOL....
I have an 03 V6 Highlander, and an 05 V6 Highlander. I have been actively reading about this issue for a very long time, every day....and wanted to be sure it wasn't a problem for me before I bought my 05 in march. It wasn't, and still isn't
I switch back and forth between the 03 and the 05 Highlander regularly, and can say without a doubt that they shift differently. Period. The 03 shifts a little smoother, but the 05 is fine for me....I have not experienced any hesitation in the 05. I suspect it is there, but not noticed by my driving style, or my wife's, btw.
I have eaglerly watched for the FIX, justt because i like to have the most up to date software, but have decided to wait, as i enjoy driving my 05 more than the 03. (better mpg, and more power.)
bkinblk...I am not at all finding fault with your feelings with your Camry's shifting. I can relate....as I have also been extremely unhappy with prior purchases that others have enjoyed....Good luck with your attempts....I hope you can get the car fixed, cause thay are very nice vehicles.
Jeff
Just think of it in the same way the old style drum brakes worked.
Maybe I am being a bit too hard on your friend since you do seem to have a perchance to hear things in a way that only fit your model.
For instance I NEVER said that springs were used in both directions.
The six speed in my C4 is manual, the Porsche automatic, Tiptronic, is a five speed.
So Wwest, what in your learned opinion, would be the result on shift patterns if you replace the clutch springs with stiffer ones, or (better still), remove them entirely?
Oh yes--almost forgot--do you really think comparing a Porsche C4 to a Camry, Highlander, etc., is a fair comparison, or (better still) expecting a Camry, Highlander,etc., to perform like one?
How's that for an open mind?
"Guess what? He tells me Auto transmissions ARE designed to "delay" shifting-or as some owners put it "shift sluggishly."".
One of us is confused. The above statement is perfectly correct.
But totally off point.
The discussion here is centered around the period of time BETWEEN SHIFTS, the time period in which the transaxle is presumptively between gears and therefore there can be no motive force applied to the drive wheels.
" It is more noticeable on the 5 and 6 speed versions for no reason other than there are more shift points than the 3 and 4 speed models."
I don't find that shifting my C4 with 6 gears is any more complex than my 93 Ford Ranger, so why should the ECU in the Toyota 5 speed find it so?. And again, here on this thread the discussion seems to be about how long it takes to shift, not the delay involved in the decision to shift.
And please keep in mind that most of the whiners and complainers on this thread are doing so because their previous driving EXPERIENCES are different from what they're encountering with the Toyota and Lexus FWD V6/5-speed combination.
As I said earlier, my point about the designed in delay was to alert anyone contemplating an arbitration, and who might be confronted with that claim by the manufacturer.
Apparently it is engineered in on purpose, so when the manufacturer (or service technician) says "That's the way it's supposed to work", they're not misleading you..
But you didn't fully answer one other question, namely how would shift patterns change if (a) Stiffer springs were installed, and (b) Springs were removed entirely.
You kinda sidestepped on that one.
Let me answer it--at least as far as (b) is concerned.
Shifts would be faster and more aggressive, but wear would occur faster. (well, you got the wear part right!)
Now tell us more about (a).
PS
Just a piece of friendly advice.
It is unwise to refer to those posting about the problem as whiners and complainers. I was accused of it and a complaint was made about me, but in reality I had just replied to someone elses post with that heading on it.
Funny thing--no one complained about the originator of the phrase. Go figure.
You're welcome BTW.
Remember, I'm not among the naysayers.
Insofar as SPRINGS, I thought post 1411 covered the issue totally and completely and if you don't then TT.
I'm beginning to "talk" down to you in the same way I would a nine year old and that isn't good for either of us.
If you're ever in Seattle and want to discuss this over a cup of coffee (Starbucks Grande Latte) look me up.
Your post comes as both good news and bad news:
First the good news--every senior citizen appreciates being considered younger than he/she really is. Nine years old is more than I deserve but I'll take anything I can get at this stage in life!
Now the bad news--Skepticism--some of which is my doing--has more or less kept this topic alive. Looks like you'll have to find a surrogate (more mature?) skeptic to respond to, or interest in this topic may decline.
Please accept my sincere apologies too Wwest--For failing to meet your avowed standard of maturity in knowledge, wisdom, experience, and debating skills--altho' I must admit I never figured you as a quitter.
Thanks too for the Starbucks Latte offer, however a nine year old should be more into slushies. Coffee can be harmful at that age!
G'day.
Blaming the problem on aggressive driving is a cop out. In most of our large urban areas, aggressive driving is necessary for survival. To intentionally build a car that cannot stand up to these conditions should be criminal. Saying that "they all do it" or "it is operating as designed" is also a cop out and does not mean that it isn't a problem. Based on some of wwest's theories, it sounds like this characteristic was indeed intentional, however, they probably did not thoroughly test it under all driving scenarios. As has been stated before, it if isn't a problem, why is Toyota trying to fix it?
First, no one has "Blamed the problem on aggressive driving" as you have stated.
I believe the statement should be amended to show what was really said, namely "Aggressive driving habits may accentuate the delay designed into trannys."
In other words, it's already there, aggressive driving habits may make it more noticeable for those who choose to drive that way.
Also, suggesting that one must drive aggressively to survive--most would agree
that's completely wrong headed thinking,and the most appropriate rebuttal to it is that you may believe it's right, but you may also end up *dead right* by choosing to adopt that philosophy.
People who drive aggressively have a tendency to get hurt-or hurt others--and even you must admit accident stats strongly support that fact.
To me that's a far more serious problem than the one we're talking about in this forum.
Furthermore I strongly disagree with your characterization of such a design as "criminal". Perhaps you're just venting a little, but describing it as "criminal" strikes me as tending toward alarmist hyperbole.
On the other hand, advocating aggressive driving could easily be considered as such--if not criminal, pretty darn close to it....
When one chooses to merge into fast moving freeway traffic, there are two alternatives--it can be done safely by looking for the right opportunity and by using the merge lanes effectively, or they can do it aggressively and just charge in, hoping to get up to speed in time enough to avoid getting run over.
Which is the wiser of the two?
Now if you're driving a Neon (or any other low powered/slow accellerating vehicle)..........................how do you suppose they manage?
Or maybe they should be banned from freeways as having *criminal* intent by virtue of their design?
Not only in LA or metropolitan city, imagine someone running a red light or stop sign and is going to hit you on the side. You might just need to drive "aggressive" for that moment and the 1-2 seconds of hesitation might be a difference between live and dead. I don't care if my car is totaled or what. I care more for my life and my families.
So, I'm last in line, shall I wait, remain in place, until the cars ahead move out (meantime ticking off all of the impatient drivers behind me, horns blaring!), or should I creep forward like everyone else until there is no acceleration lane left and now I MUST accelerate VERY aggressively in order to quickly match speed and blend into the upcoming space...??
There is a REAL WORLD out there.
In my experiance sometimes that can be done without being aggressive and sometimes it can't. both can be safe if done correctly.
The service manager called it a "hesitation" and recommended that she upgrade the service from the normal $105 version to the $366 version in order to solve the problem by undergoing a fuel induction service and an auto transmission flush. She bit and went for it. Of course a fuel injector cleaning and a transmission flush did nothing for the problem.
When she came home and night and described that they had called it a "hesitation", I Googled "toyota hesitation acceleration" and came to these boards, where I saw the TSB information.
I called the dealership the next morning and asked the service manager if he was aware of a TSB that solved the hesitation problem and he said that he wasn't aware of a problem or of the TSB.. I quoted the TSB number to him (TC005-05 for the 1MZ-FE engine) and he said he would look it up and call me back. Amazingly, he actually called me back and requested that I bring in the car the next morning.
Well, they flashed the ECM with the TC005-05 and now the Camry responds normally and will actually burn rubber when you chomp down on the pedal! It's like a new car.
Many thanks to this forum.
P.S. I'm going to try and get back my $261 that they overcharged me for the "solution", but I know that's an uphill battle that's probably not worth fighting.
New York, Boston, Miami, etc.
Often rent cars when visiting these cities.
I'm not at all unfamiliar with traffic in these urban freeway environments.
I agree that it's sometimes intimidating.
I agree with you that defensive driving is the way to go--but aggressive driving is an accident waiting to happen.
I don't do it.
It isn't necessary.
It isn't wise.
One does not *need* a car that reacts instantly or has lightning accelleration.
No one does.
That's a valid argument.
Ask your local emergency response medics.
They'll tell you all you want to know about aggressive drivers.
PS
My family and I lived in France for three years.
You think LA is a tough place for driving?
Try Paris!! (Tell us about it--if you survive!)