You are correct "One does not *need* a car that reacts instantly or has lightning acceleration." One does need a car that reacts the same every time. The problem here is you just never know. Even my 65 cutlass with the hesitating quadrojet is at least consistent.
I am considering getting a V6 Highlander but these hesiation comments have me concerned, but how serious and prevalent is the problem?.I have owned 6 different cars ( 3 toyotas) with automatic Transmissions and none of them have shifted "perfectly" in every situation. They all shifted smoothly during normal acceleration, but most of them would occasionally hesitate, or shift abruptly, if pressed in an unusual circumstance. Some were better than others, but it sounds like the problems here are more than that? I have test driven both the 4 and 6 cyl models and did not notice anything unusual. I pushed them pertty hard and the shifting seemed within normal limits. So is this a problem that takes awhile to develop, or that only affects a portion of the transmissions produced? Is buying a highlander a gamble that I will get one with a bad transmission? Were the transmissions produced by different plants? It just seems like quite a few people have BIG problems while others don't report any. And I have not read any reviews that mention the problem so I am very confused.
Any info would be most appreciated, don't want to buy myself a headache.
jim70...I had exactly the same concerns, as we were thinking about adding an 05 Highlander to the 03 we already had and love. We did the test drive thing, and even tried the example this forum folks indicated was a "certain" to experience the hesitation....we found nothing unusual, and now have over 7,000 miles of satisfaction. It does shift differeently than the 4 spd autoi in our 03, but noi hesitation, and we are very satisfied.
My advice--for whatever it's worth--take the one you want to buy (whatever make or model)--for a good long test drive. Try to submit it to every conceivable driving condition you can think of (as close to your *average* driving requirements as possible), and assess it accordingly. If it meets or comes close to your requirements, then consider buying it. If it doesn't, try someone else's make and model. At the end of the day, try to make the best deal you can for the make and model of your choice. A Toyota Highlander is a good place to start. They are as good as any. Do not be overly alarmed by what you read here. Remember--only the ones who have an issue (or think they have) are the ones who make the loudest noises. If you peruse this topic in its entirety, you will find there aren't that many who complain about the hesitation issue. The vast silent majority are the ones to really listen to--only problem is they don't make much noise! Obviously, they have no need to.
Okay, here's one of the silent ones. I've only posted here once before about my wife's 04 RX330. (Really, just a gussied up V6 Highlander so take heed in your decision) The car is absolutely beautiful, fairly quiet and very comfortable, but in stop and go traffic it's shifts much worse than the 93 Explorer it replaced. On the highway...no complaints plenty of power, smooth and quiet...getting on to that highway...better cross your fingers and pray or wait for enough space if your coasting around 20 and need to hit the gas it will not respond for at least 1 sec. With today's technology no car should do this let alone a $40K Lux SUV
It will soon go in for its 10K oil change will investigate the TSB then. Good luck with your decision.
FYI--Here's another silent majority opinion on the issue ( From the Highlander Problems and Solutions Forum) :
"I also have an '05 HL V6 AWD and have noticed the "hesitation" only very slightly; and I find I am already, after 3 months of driving, pretty much used to the feel of it.
I can only add this comment - I test drove a number of other 2005 makes (Murano, Mazda6 to name two) and found the same issue with them. Reading other forums on different makes also leads me to believe the issue is wide-spread. Most any new vehicle today will have the electronic throttle or drive by wire, thus most any new vehicle will have the issue. I would rather have a Toyota than some of the others. Get used to it, folks. :>)"
One does not *need* a car that reacts instantly or [...]
This is simply a non-truth which has been discussed numerous times.
I assert, if everytime you applied the gas the vehicle hesitated with the same exact delay - a human could eventually learn to compensate for it to some greater or lesser extent, but it would collide with very low-level cause and effect learning which the brain of the operator has accomplished (starting with other activities as an infact including of course years, no probably decades, of driving with countless accelerator activation and response cycles in other vehicles).
I also assert it could be extremely dangerous from the standpoint that unpredictable hesitation would jeopardize other mental processing such as distance / speed / timing estimation which the brain performs, some of it based on this prior learning. It is also unsafe in that the hesitation in certain contexts can cause the operator to spend precious time reconciling the discrepant response.
I also contend it may also be unsafe (even if predictable and repeatible) as it collides with the mental models of other drivers... In some contexts, the system must extend beyond 1 car, 1 driver. Remember, other drivers are also constantly estimating distance / speed / time; assessing intention and capability.
This sort of thing isn't conscious. It happens at a very low-level. Have you ever driven to someplace familiar / routine (like work) and had the thought at some point - how did I get here? And dealing with the discrepant, constantly being vigilant to compensate for behavior that doesn't fit pre-learned mental model takes time; extra mental effort and can disengage you from the activity at a most critical time.
When there is this sort of disconnect, how the "system" (car, driver, other drivers) will perform is a bit of a dealer's choice.
Any way I look at it, I cannot accept this was a purposful design artifact by the respected Toyota Engineering community, from a safety standpoint, a performance standpoint, and product acceptance / driving enjoyment standpoint.
Further to my earlier posts regarding your concerns about which make or model to purchase............... I would also advise not overreacting to emotional statements which sometimes appear in these forums, such as: "better cross your fingers and pray or wait for enough space if your coasting around 20 and need to hit the gas it will not respond for at least 1 sec." With all due respect to those who make such statements, it is obvious they are by far more expressive than necessary, and don't really represent reality. I can understand someone's frustration at what they feel is a problem, and their right to express their frustration, but when the dust settles, reality eventually arrives on the scene. Good luck in your research, and I hope whatever your decision may be that your expectations are met in every respect..
User777 has presented us with an excellent dissertation on how distractions can affect drivers. It is a very impressive intellectuallized analysis of common situations drivers frequently experience. Your analysis could serve as an excellent legal rationale to describe cause and effect of a variety of other such driver distractions, ie: Using cell phones, smoking, drinking the morning coffee, putting on makeup, irritation with other drivers........and a myriad of other very common distractions we are faced with on the road. Well done.
Some were better than others, but it sounds like the problems here are more than that? I have test driven both the 4 and 6 cyl models and did not notice anything unusual. I pushed them pertty hard and the shifting seemed within normal limits. So is this a problem that takes awhile to develop, or that only affects a portion of the transmissions produced?
We have a '99 V6 Camry. It, too, shifts a little *weird*. But, it always responds when you press on the pedal.
It is nothing like what my '05 V6 Camry is like. My first post on this forum was saying that I noticed funny shifting, but didn't think it was a problem. The car has since gotten much worse. You simply cannot take a test drive long enough, IMO, to be sure that there isn't a problem. I don't know about how other new cars drive -- I was only interested in a Camry based on my previous experiences with the cars. Some have said that it is only present in the V6 cars, not the 4 cylinders.
And don't listen to the malcontent on this board that says there isn't a problem yet doesn't even own one of the cars - Toyota has acknowldeged that there is a problem. Our motivations are clear - we want smooth shifting cars, others are less so.
Some of the posters are emotional because they have had experiences that bring out the emotions....such as pressing down on the accelerator to merge with oncoming traffic and finding yourself slowly ooozing out onto a roadway and becoming a sitting duck....bracing for the impending impact. A feeling that I had never had before in 45 years of driving.
I'm confused. Webster defines "malcontent" as "actively discontented person". A good case can be made to show that the real "malcontents" here are those who are "constantly and actively expressing their discontent" with how their Toyota vehicles perform. Please--no offense intended!! I guess I don't qualify as a malcontent, because I'm perfectly happy with how our Toyota Highlander ( traded the old one on an 05 two months ago!!) performs. It feels "different" but every new vehicle does to a degree--in our case, it's quite acceptable. Furthermore I am not advocating that the issue being called a "problem" doesn't exist--never have. What I am saying, and I believe it's closest to the truth of the matter, is that what is being referred to as a "problem" is, in reality,a designed in "characteristic." Having said that, I fully realize that some may believe it is a "problem", and have no issues with their characterization of it as such. If they choose to call it a "problem", that's OK with me. I also have no issues with their desire to ask for a tranny that adjusts itself for every driving style, and jumps forward instantly when they hammer the accellerator. If that's what they want, so be it--but chances are they aren't going to get it because the car buying public has demanded something else from automakers. Yes, Toyota has admitted they are aware their trannys don't meet everyone's expectations--call it "acknowledging a problem" if you wish. Yes, they are committed to develop a "fix". I suggest we should be saying "good for them", and also recognize what they are trying to do is well beyond what many other automakers do for their customers. Nuff said for now.
05 Highlander Owner. 03 Avalon Owner. 04 Silverado Owner. 56 Thunderbird Owner. (Yeah Shifty, I finally found a good one!) 55 Chev Convert.Owner 47 Caddy Convert. Owner 77 Volkwagen Convert. Owner Jag XK140 Drophead Coupe Owner. Aerostar Owner. Not a Toyota Shareholder. Just a contented Toyota Owner.
The problem is serious but, honestly, we do not know how prevalent it is. If this were the vehicle I wanted, I would wait it out, at least until Toyota can come up with a viable fix.
Sure glad to hear that the ECM fix worked on your car. Please do report back in a month or two, though. I have read on the Lexus forum about the problem returning after a period of time.
no. these are different, and very high-level distractions leading to extra tasking which tends to be more uniform in time (unless you spill that cup or poke yourself in the eye). they are also very much the result of choices the operator has made, although the argument can be made that others on the road have their safety compromised as a result, without their choice, and i'd agree with that. i don't advocate any of these behaviors of course.
in contrast, the hesitation impacts and collides with low-level cause-and-effect learning and cognitively loads the operator when the discrepant hesitation occurs. the loading or tasking which occurs because of this is very very different. also, unlike those other behaviors you mention, the hesitation is not the choice of the operator, infact quite the opposite (unless of course - one, if fully aware of the situation, decides to go ahead and purchase the vehicle anyway).
Well, I won't argue with you, other than to suggest your issue can be intellectualized ad nauseum and it won't change anything. My position on it is, simply put, that a distraction is a distraction is a distraction.........regardless of its origin! Claiming the hesitation is a unique distraction tantamount to instant destruction is to completely ignore those far more serious, self induced distractions we all create for ourselves each and every day. I mentioned just a few, but you and I both know there are literally dozens more examples.
Regarding the hesitation issue itself, I have maintained all along, and continue to do so, that it doesn't qualify as a safety hazard--In spite of the smoke being blown at it by the resident peanut gallery. All the hypothetical/fictional doom and gloom scenarios these folks create here are miniscule compared to the risky (and sometimes really dumb) things we all do behind the wheel of our precious vehicles.
In discussing safety, one would, it would seem, have to differentiate between random distracting events and predictable ones, like cell phones, or like a 100% guaranteed hesitation every time you step on the gas (like on old carburator cars with bad accelerator pumps).
More to the point though--without confirmed accidents, a vehicle could only be described as "potentially" dangerous, not actually dangerous. And if the accidents don't roll in after a while, the potentiality goes down accordingly until it eventually hits the somewhat more benign realm of "really annoying".
More to the point though--without confirmed accidents, a vehicle could only be described as "potentially" dangerous, not actually dangerous. And if the accidents don't roll in after a while, the potentiality goes down accordingly until it eventually hits the somewhat more benign realm of "really annoying".
You said it best. I think people have been posting somewhat inflammatory statements without providing any substantive evidence as to the danger of the transmission problem.
Even "really annoying" to a significant number of people is unexceptable.
For me driving with this hesitation is like driving with someone randomly covering your eyes for a second. No problem on an open clear road but not cool during a lane change.
Former Camry owner 65 Cutlass conv. owner (complete with hesitating 4 barrel carb) 56 Chevy owner 64 Volvo p-1800 owner 2000 Acura TL owner (replaced the Camry)
We cannot say whether or not there have been accidents. It is a "potentially" dangerous problem, and there are enough reports of close calls that make me believe that there probably have been some. Just my opinion. But I am not sure it would be obvious at the accident scene, if an accident were to occur, that it was the result of a hesitation or delay.
Excuse the off topic diversion. I'd be interested in buying your P1800 if or when it might ever be available--provided of course it's in decent shape. I'm looking for one in show (or close to) condition, and I'm willing to pay a fair price..Rust was a huge problem in that marque, but they were (and still are) a very attractive little sports car.
Now, back to topic. Re your post--a couple of questions. (1) What do you consider "a significant number of people", and what number do you have in mind in that respect?" (2 Would it be fair to say the the term "annoying" means different things to different people?" (Example: What might be annoying to one might not be to another)
Oh I think "really annoying" is unacceptable, too. That's why I put the adverb in REALLY.
Trying to be dispassionate about it, and taking ten deep breaths, I got to thinking if I heard someone insisting that cars were (my words) "death traps" because of this problem, I'd have to say this was in fact hyperbole of a high order. But I don't mean to downplay the irritation one must feel with it, or in my case, the disappointment I would feel having a new car do this now and then.
If memory serves, I believe there are a number of insistings (direct and implied) in this forum that vehicles with the hesitation condition were "death traps." I agree that would qualify as hyperbole in the highest order--if not downright irrational. I'll buy "irritation", but categorizing it as a "potential" safety hazard--no way. Talking on a cell phone (or similar act) while driving--that is clearly a "potential" safety hazard. A momentary (ie 1 second) hesitation condition doesn't come anywhere near that category.
Thanks but it's not currently available. It took me to long to find a good rust free example to give it up now. It's currently in the middle of a mild restoration. I think they are one of the best looking sports cars of all time. Check e-bay. I will also apologize to everyone for the diversion and return to the topic.
err - this logic is faulty. i don't believe it likely you're going to get police reports indicating vehicle was hit from behind, or t-boned making a left-hand turn, or vehicle swerved and entered another lane and got hit to avoid another vehicle that seemed to stall because vehicle in front hesitated due to an engine / transmission design attribute.
if you did, it's unlikely it would be reported to the mass-media and searchable by us.
on qualifying danger: if i were to tell you there's a live un-insulated wire in that pond in your back yard, but we know to date no one's gotten shocked or died yet because no one's waded in - would that be qualified as dangerous, "potentially dangerous" or "annoying"? and to whom?
and if someone did have an accident as a result of wading into that pond of yours, do you think it would receive national attention? how many reports of people getting shocked in ponds when someone is running extension cords to a dock (or what have you) would be needed for you to operationalize the fact that water and electricity don't mix.
there may very well be safety problems all around you...in your very home, school or place of employment, with products you use, etc. don't fool yourself into believing you will recognize them all and you by yourself are in the best position to assess risk. some risks will be visible to you and some will not. some will be easy to comprehend, and others...noone's considered yet.
with complex systems it's not likely your user model is complete enough to understand the engineering / designer's model.
IMHO there is nothing inflamatory about anecdotal postings of people indicating they attempted to merge, or turn, or pull into another lane and their vehicle hesitated 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 seconds (whatever), and they felt unsafe.
what sort of reporting do you expect? what would constitute credible?
let's say a person's family is involved in a vehicle accident because of the hesitation. would 1 accident reported suffice? 5? 10? 100? 1000?
lets look at it from a different angle. You have a car that hesitates at random. you never know when it will happen. When it does happen and the car does something different than you intend are you in control of that vehicle? If you are not in control even for a second how does that effect the safety? Just thinking out loud here I am not going the "death trap" route.
good point. and let's say you or your spouse loose confidence in driving the vehicle. is it safe to drive when you are not confident behind the wheel? continuing to think out loud and haven't gone down the "death trap" route yet...
"credible" is difficult for me to get to on this personally, because first of all, if someone smashes you from behind, that's THEIR fault, not yours (and by extension, not your car's fault).
As for getting T-boned by oncoming traffic while making a left turn, if one-second was all the slack you had, that's probably your fault (in the eyes of the law) as well.
so the idea of hesitations "causing" accidents sounds a lot like (to me) "my dog ate my homework", in that there is no responsibility allocated to the driver; however I am fully prepared to sympathize with and believe anyone who is irritated, annoyed, disappointed, or made anxious by this apparent defect in their transmission's behavior. I would be too.
I'm a believer now---not in the safety claim, but in the defect. I've asked around, and there is something "real" going on out there. What, how bad, how often....I don't know....
I'm a believer too Shifty. Not annoyed,irritated, disappointed, nor made anxious tho'. And I don't believe that it's a defect. It just isn't. Not on ours at any rate. There is something there that wasn't in the old Highlander or in our Avalon. The new one "feels" different, "shift" interval is different, and the vehicle responds different. Not a whole lot, but it is "different." No two or three second delay under any circumstances, although under some conditions there will be a momentary (I estimate a half second or less) delay. That delay is noticeable, but not something I think anyone would be concerned about. I'm certainly not concerned about it in any way. It's negligeable. And it hasn't changed since new. While looking at the new ones a while back, my wife and I (It's really hers) test drove 4 different HLs over the span of one week. They were all the same--and I was rigorous in trying to find any problems. There were none, and they all felt or handled the same way--"different" from what we're used to.. We've only had one problem with the new one--during the first week of ownership we discovered the driver's side heated seat was inoperative. The dealer replaced the entire assembly with a new seat--no questions asked. So I hold to the news I received from my friend--that's the way these trannys are designed to work. As far as I'm concerned, until I see or experience the so called "defect", my mind won't change.
Please. This is not meant to diminish in any way the feelings and expressed sentiments of those who believe otherwise.
Well I know that once one person sees a flying saucer everybody else starts seeing them too, :P , but I'm hearing from sources that are more impartial and they think something's up with the trannies, too. How bad, how often, who can say right now?
Running on slick tires during summertime conditions is probably only "potentially" dangerous. Doing the same in wintertime conditions is "actually" dangerous.
Being hit from behind is not always "their" fault. In WA you must be in the travel lane long enough to "claim" it. Swerving over into a travel lane while still going below the appropriate travel speed would qualify you for a citation here in this state.
Where is the gas tank located on the various versions of the Toyota FWD V6/5-speed series? Not like the old Ford Pinto I hope.
I just wanted to say thanks for all the input. I would have to say that it seems hard to believe that such a truly dangerous condition could have existed for several years without more notice by Toyota. If it is this serious and applied to all similar toyota transmissions certainly this would have been on 60 minutes by now? So I can only speculate that it is a random flaw affecting only certain units. My one question is though, for those of you that have the problem bad, did it manifest immediatly or perhaps later, after several thousand miles? I was wondering if it is possible to identiy a transmission that may have the problem before buying the car.
One more request, if you don't mind. Please delete my posts #'s 1462 and 1463 as well. The messages have been sent and I'm certain all involved are aware. Neither of the posts are germaine to the topic, and I don't wish to cause any further embarrassment or hard feelings to anyone. Thanks.
After reading all the comments on this topic I got thinking. Could it be that the hesitation is indeed just an unfavorable performance characteristic of Toyota's new "Drive by wire" design? But not one that would affect everyone. I have talked to one of my neighbors who has a 2004 HL and they love it and describe the drivetrain as peppy and smooth. But I know their driving style is also very conservative. Maybe my 25 year old son however, whose driving style is a bit more "spirited" would feel differently? I am thinking that maybe Toyota designed the drivetrain to appeal to the masses and the largest percentage of the HL customers drive conservatively and would therefore rarely have a problem? Mind you, I am by no means criticizing any ones driving style but this issue is confusion to say the least.
I took a V6 HL for a test drive again yesterday and got on the onramp for the freeway, directly behind a large truck. By the time actually entered the freeway we were only doing about 30 mph. The other lanes were clear so I punched it and the car zipped out immediatly from behind the truck and I was doing 65 in no time. Thats about as aggressive as my driving gets so i think I would not have a problem.
Thats only of course if my earlier assumption of possible random flaws is incorrect. Since Toyota's biggest claim to fame is Quality, consistency and reliability I cant help but wonder.
Toyota has acknowledged that certain vehicles have:
* downshift lag when accelerating at speeds from 10 to 20 mph * gear hunting when driving on/off accelerator pedal at 20 to 30 mph (i.e. rush-hour traffic) * slow response rate during heavy acceleration from a stop
That is a FACT. It says so in the TSB, which I assume you have read.
Whether you want to say it's a "design feature" or a "problem" or a "defect" I could care less.
Toyota does not spend the effort to research and develop a TSB if there's not a significant number of people complaining. They just don't. It doesn't make business sense.
I drove a 2004 Explorer last week off & on. Apparently Ford isn't "designing" jerky shifting into their transmissions.
Is the jerky shifting issue the same as the hesitation problem?. I was not aware that jerky shifting was a problem as well? I am still wondering, were all of these issues apparent immediatly when you got the car or after some miles of driving? It sounds so serious that I would think it would have been obvious during a test drive so I am guessing the problems showed up later?
And I have read every professional review I can find and the transmission is always described as smooth and even sometimes very smooth. So it would seem to be a flaw that only affests certain random transmissions.?
Jim..I believe (im MY opinion) that it is a perception thing, and perhaps related to driving style. (and I believe that Topyota agrees that some have issues, and are trying very hard to accomodate their customers with the TSB, while at the same time, complying with CAFE and EPA) The 05 Highlander V6 that I have now put 7,500 miles on, shifts fine..It does shift differently than our 03 Highlander, but different, doesn't mean bad. It is a 5 speed, rather than a 4 speed, and the 05 also has drive by wire. These things combine to give a different feel to the trans. I also believe that some people have more sensitivity to some issues than others. One of my pet peaves is wind noise. If a have a car with what I consider to be excessaive wind noise, I CAN'T stand it! Others may not even hear it, or care.
I am in no way berating those who are unhappy with their cars. For me, it is a non-issue. I have gone on record as thinking about having the TSB performed, just to have the "latest and greatest" but I am now 90% sure I will take the approach, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
To sum up my feelings, I believe that if you are happy with the (long) test drive, than you will be happy with the way the trans shifts upon many miles of happy ownership.
Jeff
PS Edit...If you want to drive one with a VERY smooth tranmission, drive the Hybrid Highlander! It has a CVT (continuously Variable Trans) that has NO "speeds" and is EXTREMELY smooth, but at a significantly higher price of entry.
Since a lot of people seem to take issue with calling this "thing" a "problem" or "defect" [ again: why are you guys even here??? - go enjoy life & work on problems you do have ]
It's one & the same. Step on the pedal, it hesitates, then it 'jerks' into gear. mert2: Mine doesn't do this, and I have a friend with an 05 bought in Feb 05, and his doesn't either. I still contend it is a driving style/perception thing. I am sorry that you have a distaste for your vehicle.....
I am in this forum because i am an auto enthusiast, and feel that i can add some valuable info to this and orher forums gained from my many years of experience. I have owned over 50 cars....
Read the problem descriptions in the TSB, it describes 3 instances in which the problem exhibits. Insofar as I can see those three instances are, can be, common to any one of us.
The randomness of the actual circumstances of the occurance suggests a component, or components not being quite within operational tolerance in maybe 5% (a random guess) of vehicles shipped.
The more I learn the more I think it isn't one component, but a component + a specific set of conditions, perhaps quite a few variables that have to be in place all exactly at the same time.
Haven't I seen more than one post by drivers experiencing the problem that stated that quick decisive application of the gas pedal seemed to avoid the symptom?
That may be an argument that non-aggressive, hesitant, driving might be a part of the circumstances. That's also what the TSB seems to indicate.
That's how it manifests itself in our 05 Camry SE, wwest. It's always done it. In fact, my wife experienced it on the way home from the dealership. She's what I would call a very gentle driver. She never pushes the accelerator down quickly and she moves it in very small increments.
But the "acid test" was when my 17 yr old daughter drove it while practicing for her driver's license. Anyone who has ever driven with a new driver has probably experienced their (overly) cautious nature. As we drove around neighborhoods she would get the hesitation at nearly every corner! She was certainly not driving aggressively, she was barely moving the accelerator. But it happened that she was in the coast down mode, in the right speed range and she barely pressed down on the pedal...all of the conditions necessary to make this hesitation appear.
It was so disconcerting that we eventually decided that she needed to practice in one of our other cars.
Not on 60 minutes, but the problem has received some media attention. These links were posted earlier here, but for convenience, I will repost (my apologies to those who already have seen these links):
Not the Highlander, but describes the problem in other models with the same 5-speed auto transmission: Camry http://www.acarplace.com/reviews/2005/camry.html “Indeed, the transmission tended to have a substantial delay before downshifting when faced with sudden throttle changes, resulting in a condition not unlike turbo lag. This could be disconcerting when moving from a stop sign onto a busy, fast street or highway.”
“The 3.3 liter engine from which the RX330 presumably takes its name is fast in sprints, but since it makes most of its power only in at higher speeds, there can be a fairly long lag before acceleration, since the transmission has to downshift. Given the transmission's preference for staying in higher gears as often as possible, and the delay between hitting the gas and downshifting, this means that the RX330 often does not feel responsive on the highway
“But in the test car, occasional, clumsy-feeling upshifts were felt by passengers. There were enough of them during my test drive that I wondered what had happened to the silky-smooth shifts that I had so enjoyed from the predecessor ES.
Comments
Any info would be most appreciated, don't want to buy myself a headache.
Hope this helps, and good luck....
Jeff
Try to submit it to every conceivable driving condition you can think of (as close to your *average* driving requirements as possible), and assess it accordingly.
If it meets or comes close to your requirements, then consider buying it.
If it doesn't, try someone else's make and model.
At the end of the day, try to make the best deal you can for the make and model of your choice.
A Toyota Highlander is a good place to start.
They are as good as any.
Do not be overly alarmed by what you read here.
Remember--only the ones who have an issue (or think they have) are the ones who make the loudest noises.
If you peruse this topic in its entirety, you will find there aren't that many who complain about the hesitation issue.
The vast silent majority are the ones to really listen to--only problem is they don't make much noise!
Obviously, they have no need to.
I've only posted here once before about my wife's 04 RX330. (Really, just a gussied up V6 Highlander so take heed in your decision) The car is absolutely beautiful, fairly quiet and very comfortable, but in stop and go traffic it's shifts much worse than the 93 Explorer it replaced. On the highway...no complaints plenty of power, smooth and quiet...getting on to that highway...better cross your fingers and pray or wait for enough space if your coasting around 20 and need to hit the gas it will not respond for at least 1 sec.
With today's technology no car should do this let alone a $40K Lux SUV
It will soon go in for its 10K oil change will investigate the TSB then.
Good luck with your decision.
"I also have an '05 HL V6 AWD and have noticed the "hesitation" only very slightly; and I find I am already, after 3 months of driving, pretty much used to the feel of it.
I can only add this comment - I test drove a number of other 2005 makes (Murano, Mazda6 to name two) and found the same issue with them. Reading other forums on different makes also leads me to believe the issue is wide-spread. Most any new vehicle today will have the electronic throttle or drive by wire, thus most any new vehicle will have the issue. I would rather have a Toyota than some of the others. Get used to it, folks. :>)"
This is simply a non-truth which has been discussed numerous times.
I assert, if everytime you applied the gas the vehicle hesitated with the same exact delay - a human could eventually learn to compensate for it to some greater or lesser extent, but it would collide with very low-level cause and effect learning which the brain of the operator has accomplished (starting with other activities as an infact including of course years, no probably decades, of driving with countless accelerator activation and response cycles in other vehicles).
I also assert it could be extremely dangerous from the standpoint that unpredictable hesitation would jeopardize other mental processing such as distance / speed / timing estimation which the brain performs, some of it based on this prior learning. It is also unsafe in that the hesitation in certain contexts can cause the operator to spend precious time reconciling the discrepant response.
I also contend it may also be unsafe (even if predictable and repeatible) as it collides with the mental models of other drivers... In some contexts, the system must extend beyond 1 car, 1 driver. Remember, other drivers are also constantly estimating distance / speed / time; assessing intention and capability.
This sort of thing isn't conscious. It happens at a very low-level. Have you ever driven to someplace familiar / routine (like work) and had the thought at some point - how did I get here? And dealing with the discrepant, constantly being vigilant to compensate for behavior that doesn't fit pre-learned mental model takes time; extra mental effort and can disengage you from the activity at a most critical time.
When there is this sort of disconnect, how the "system" (car, driver, other drivers) will perform is a bit of a dealer's choice.
Any way I look at it, I cannot accept this was a purposful design artifact by the respected Toyota Engineering community, from a safety standpoint, a performance standpoint, and product acceptance / driving enjoyment standpoint.
I would also advise not overreacting to emotional statements which sometimes appear in these forums, such as: "better cross your fingers and pray or wait for enough space if your coasting around 20 and need to hit the gas it will not respond for at least 1 sec."
With all due respect to those who make such statements, it is obvious they are by far more expressive than necessary, and don't really represent reality. I can understand someone's frustration at what they feel is a problem, and their right to express their frustration, but when the dust settles, reality eventually arrives on the scene.
Good luck in your research, and I hope whatever your decision may be that your expectations are met in every respect..
It is a very impressive intellectuallized analysis of common situations drivers frequently experience.
Your analysis could serve as an excellent legal rationale to describe cause and effect of a variety of other such driver distractions, ie: Using cell phones, smoking, drinking the morning coffee, putting on makeup, irritation with other drivers........and a myriad of other very common distractions we are faced with on the road.
Well done.
We have a '99 V6 Camry. It, too, shifts a little *weird*. But, it always responds when you press on the pedal.
It is nothing like what my '05 V6 Camry is like. My first post on this forum was saying that I noticed funny shifting, but didn't think it was a problem. The car has since gotten much worse. You simply cannot take a test drive long enough, IMO, to be sure that there isn't a problem. I don't know about how other new cars drive -- I was only interested in a Camry based on my previous experiences with the cars. Some have said that it is only present in the V6 cars, not the 4 cylinders.
And don't listen to the malcontent on this board that says there isn't a problem yet doesn't even own one of the cars - Toyota has acknowldeged that there is a problem. Our motivations are clear - we want smooth shifting cars, others are less so.
-mert,
Camry owner, Toyota shareholder.
Webster defines "malcontent" as "actively discontented person".
A good case can be made to show that the real "malcontents" here are those who are "constantly and actively expressing their discontent" with how their Toyota vehicles perform. Please--no offense intended!!
I guess I don't qualify as a malcontent, because I'm perfectly happy with how our Toyota Highlander ( traded the old one on an 05 two months ago!!) performs.
It feels "different" but every new vehicle does to a degree--in our case, it's quite acceptable.
Furthermore I am not advocating that the issue being called a "problem" doesn't exist--never have.
What I am saying, and I believe it's closest to the truth of the matter, is that what is being referred to as a "problem" is, in reality,a designed in "characteristic."
Having said that, I fully realize that some may believe it is a "problem", and have no issues with their characterization of it as such.
If they choose to call it a "problem", that's OK with me.
I also have no issues with their desire to ask for a tranny that adjusts itself for every driving style, and jumps forward instantly when they hammer the accellerator.
If that's what they want, so be it--but chances are they aren't going to get it because the car buying public has demanded something else from automakers.
Yes, Toyota has admitted they are aware their trannys don't meet everyone's expectations--call it "acknowledging a problem" if you wish.
Yes, they are committed to develop a "fix".
I suggest we should be saying "good for them", and also recognize what they are trying to do is well beyond what many other automakers do for their customers.
Nuff said for now.
05 Highlander Owner.
03 Avalon Owner.
04 Silverado Owner.
56 Thunderbird Owner. (Yeah Shifty, I finally found a good one!)
55 Chev Convert.Owner
47 Caddy Convert. Owner
77 Volkwagen Convert. Owner
Jag XK140 Drophead Coupe Owner.
Aerostar Owner.
Not a Toyota Shareholder.
Just a contented Toyota Owner.
Wait a minute--why am I doing this? :confuse:
in contrast, the hesitation impacts and collides with low-level cause-and-effect learning and cognitively loads the operator when the discrepant hesitation occurs. the loading or tasking which occurs because of this is very very different. also, unlike those other behaviors you mention, the hesitation is not the choice of the operator, infact quite the opposite (unless of course - one, if fully aware of the situation, decides to go ahead and purchase the vehicle anyway).
My position on it is, simply put, that a distraction is a distraction is a distraction.........regardless of its origin!
Claiming the hesitation is a unique distraction tantamount to instant destruction is to completely ignore those far more serious, self induced distractions we all create for ourselves each and every day.
I mentioned just a few, but you and I both know there are literally dozens more examples.
Regarding the hesitation issue itself, I have maintained all along, and continue to do so, that it doesn't qualify as a safety hazard--In spite of the smoke being blown at it by the resident peanut gallery.
All the hypothetical/fictional doom and gloom scenarios these folks create here are miniscule compared to the risky (and sometimes really dumb) things we all do behind the wheel of our precious vehicles.
More to the point though--without confirmed accidents, a vehicle could only be described as "potentially" dangerous, not actually dangerous. And if the accidents don't roll in after a while, the potentiality goes down accordingly until it eventually hits the somewhat more benign realm of "really annoying".
You said it best. I think people have been posting somewhat inflammatory statements without providing any substantive evidence as to the danger of the transmission problem.
For me driving with this hesitation is like driving with someone randomly covering your eyes for a second. No problem on an open clear road but not cool during a lane change.
Former Camry owner
65 Cutlass conv. owner (complete with hesitating 4 barrel carb)
56 Chevy owner
64 Volvo p-1800 owner
2000 Acura TL owner (replaced the Camry)
I'd be interested in buying your P1800 if or when it might ever be available--provided of course it's in decent shape. I'm looking for one in show (or close to) condition, and I'm willing to pay a fair price..Rust was a huge problem in that marque, but they were (and still are) a very attractive little sports car.
Now, back to topic.
Re your post--a couple of questions.
(1) What do you consider "a significant number of people", and what number do you have in mind in that respect?"
(2 Would it be fair to say the the term "annoying" means different things to different people?" (Example: What might be annoying to one might not be to another)
Trying to be dispassionate about it, and taking ten deep breaths, I got to thinking if I heard someone insisting that cars were (my words) "death traps" because of this problem, I'd have to say this was in fact hyperbole of a high order. But I don't mean to downplay the irritation one must feel with it, or in my case, the disappointment I would feel having a new car do this now and then.
I agree that would qualify as hyperbole in the highest order--if not downright irrational.
I'll buy "irritation", but categorizing it as a "potential" safety hazard--no way.
Talking on a cell phone (or similar act) while driving--that is clearly a "potential" safety hazard.
A momentary (ie 1 second) hesitation condition doesn't come anywhere near that category.
I will also apologize to everyone for the diversion and return to the topic.
if you did, it's unlikely it would be reported to the mass-media and searchable by us.
on qualifying danger: if i were to tell you there's a live un-insulated wire in that pond in your back yard, but we know to date no one's gotten shocked or died yet because no one's waded in - would that be qualified as dangerous, "potentially dangerous" or "annoying"? and to whom?
and if someone did have an accident as a result of wading into that pond of yours, do you think it would receive national attention? how many reports of people getting shocked in ponds when someone is running extension cords to a dock (or what have you) would be needed for you to operationalize the fact that water and electricity don't mix.
there may very well be safety problems all around you...in your very home, school or place of employment, with products you use, etc. don't fool yourself into believing you will recognize them all and you by yourself are in the best position to assess risk. some risks will be visible to you and some will not. some will be easy to comprehend, and others...noone's considered yet.
with complex systems it's not likely your user model is complete enough to understand the engineering / designer's model.
IMHO there is nothing inflamatory about anecdotal postings of people indicating they attempted to merge, or turn, or pull into another lane and their vehicle hesitated 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 seconds (whatever), and they felt unsafe.
what sort of reporting do you expect? what would constitute credible?
let's say a person's family is involved in a vehicle accident because of the hesitation. would 1 accident reported suffice? 5? 10? 100? 1000?
what constitutes substantive evidence of danger?
really.
As for getting T-boned by oncoming traffic while making a left turn, if one-second was all the slack you had, that's probably your fault (in the eyes of the law) as well.
so the idea of hesitations "causing" accidents sounds a lot like (to me) "my dog ate my homework", in that there is no responsibility allocated to the driver; however I am fully prepared to sympathize with and believe anyone who is irritated, annoyed, disappointed, or made anxious by this apparent defect in their transmission's behavior. I would be too.
I'm a believer now---not in the safety claim, but in the defect. I've asked around, and there is something "real" going on out there. What, how bad, how often....I don't know....
There is something there that wasn't in the old Highlander or in our Avalon.
The new one "feels" different, "shift" interval is different, and the vehicle responds different. Not a whole lot, but it is "different."
No two or three second delay under any circumstances, although under some conditions there will be a momentary (I estimate a half second or less) delay.
That delay is noticeable, but not something I think anyone would be concerned about.
I'm certainly not concerned about it in any way. It's negligeable. And it hasn't changed since new.
While looking at the new ones a while back, my wife and I (It's really hers) test
drove 4 different HLs over the span of one week.
They were all the same--and I was rigorous in trying to find any problems. There were none, and they all felt or handled the same way--"different" from what we're used to..
We've only had one problem with the new one--during the first week of ownership we discovered the driver's side heated seat was inoperative.
The dealer replaced the entire assembly with a new seat--no questions asked.
So I hold to the news I received from my friend--that's the way these trannys are designed to work.
As far as I'm concerned, until I see or experience the so called "defect", my mind won't change.
Please.
This is not meant to diminish in any way the feelings and expressed sentiments of those who believe otherwise.
Being hit from behind is not always "their" fault. In WA you must be in the travel lane long enough to "claim" it. Swerving over into a travel lane while still going below the appropriate travel speed would qualify you for a citation here in this state.
Where is the gas tank located on the various versions of the Toyota FWD V6/5-speed series? Not like the old Ford Pinto I hope.
Shifty the Host
Thanks again for all the comments
Please delete my posts #'s 1462 and 1463 as well.
The messages have been sent and I'm certain all involved are aware.
Neither of the posts are germaine to the topic, and I don't wish to cause any further
embarrassment or hard feelings to anyone.
Thanks.
I took a V6 HL for a test drive again yesterday and got on the onramp for the freeway, directly behind a large truck. By the time actually entered the freeway we were only doing about 30 mph. The other lanes were clear so I punched it and the car zipped out immediatly from behind the truck and I was doing 65 in no time. Thats about as aggressive as my driving gets so i think I would not have a problem.
Thats only of course if my earlier assumption of possible random flaws is incorrect. Since Toyota's biggest claim to fame is Quality, consistency and reliability I cant help but wonder.
Toyota has acknowledged that certain vehicles have:
* downshift lag when accelerating at speeds from 10 to 20 mph
* gear hunting when driving on/off accelerator pedal at 20 to 30 mph (i.e. rush-hour traffic)
* slow response rate during heavy acceleration from a stop
That is a FACT. It says so in the TSB, which I assume you have read.
Whether you want to say it's a "design feature" or a "problem" or a "defect" I could care less.
Toyota does not spend the effort to research and develop a TSB if there's not a significant number of people complaining. They just don't. It doesn't make business sense.
I drove a 2004 Explorer last week off & on. Apparently Ford isn't "designing" jerky shifting into their transmissions.
I drove a 2005 Highlander last week, Apparently Toyota isn't "designing" any jerky shifting into their transmissions..
And I have read every professional review I can find and the transmission is always described as smooth and even sometimes very smooth. So it would seem to be a flaw that only affests certain random transmissions.?
I am in no way berating those who are unhappy with their cars. For me, it is a non-issue. I have gone on record as thinking about having the TSB performed, just to have the "latest and greatest" but I am now 90% sure I will take the approach, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
To sum up my feelings, I believe that if you are happy with the (long) test drive, than you will be happy with the way the trans shifts upon many miles of happy ownership.
Jeff
PS Edit...If you want to drive one with a VERY smooth tranmission, drive the Hybrid Highlander! It has a CVT (continuously Variable Trans) that has NO "speeds" and is EXTREMELY smooth, but at a significantly higher price of entry.
Mine didn't show up until after 1500 miles. It might've been because I was 'babying' it for the engine break-in.
I propose we start calling this:
The Thing That The TSB Describes
mert2: Mine doesn't do this, and I have a friend with an 05 bought in Feb 05, and his doesn't either. I still contend it is a driving style/perception thing. I am sorry that you have a distaste for your vehicle.....
I am in this forum because i am an auto enthusiast, and feel that i can add some valuable info to this and orher forums gained from my many years of experience. I have owned over 50 cars....
The randomness of the actual circumstances of the occurance suggests a component, or components not being quite within operational tolerance in maybe 5% (a random guess) of vehicles shipped.
That may be an argument that non-aggressive, hesitant, driving might be a part of the circumstances. That's also what the TSB seems to indicate.
But the "acid test" was when my 17 yr old daughter drove it while practicing for her driver's license. Anyone who has ever driven with a new driver has probably experienced their (overly) cautious nature. As we drove around neighborhoods she would get the hesitation at nearly every corner! She was certainly not driving aggressively, she was barely moving the accelerator. But it happened that she was in the coast down mode, in the right speed range and she barely pressed down on the pedal...all of the conditions necessary to make this hesitation appear.
It was so disconcerting that we eventually decided that she needed to practice in one of our other cars.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05036/453222.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04345/424551.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04343/423383.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05084/477261.stm
Not the Highlander, but describes the problem in other models with the same 5-speed auto transmission:
Camry http://www.acarplace.com/reviews/2005/camry.html
“Indeed, the transmission tended to have a substantial delay before downshifting when faced with sudden throttle changes, resulting in a condition not unlike turbo lag. This could be disconcerting when moving from a stop sign onto a busy, fast street or highway.”
Lexus RX330 http://www.toyoland.com/lexus/rx330.html
“The 3.3 liter engine from which the RX330 presumably takes its name is fast in sprints, but since it makes most of its power only in at higher speeds, there can be a fairly long lag before acceleration, since the transmission has to downshift. Given the transmission's preference for staying in higher gears as often as possible, and the delay between hitting the gas and downshifting, this means that the RX330 often does not feel responsive on the highway
http://motorway.chicoer.com/Stories/0,1413,310%257E32291%257E2149282,00.html
“But in the test car, occasional, clumsy-feeling upshifts were felt by passengers. There were enough of them during my test drive that I wondered what had happened to the silky-smooth shifts that I had so enjoyed from the predecessor ES.
ohres, "Toyota Sienna Owners: Problems & Solutions (2004+)" #1676, 6 Aug 2005 10:21 pm