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Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
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Any info would be most appreciated, don't want to buy myself a headache.
Hope this helps, and good luck....
Jeff
Try to submit it to every conceivable driving condition you can think of (as close to your *average* driving requirements as possible), and assess it accordingly.
If it meets or comes close to your requirements, then consider buying it.
If it doesn't, try someone else's make and model.
At the end of the day, try to make the best deal you can for the make and model of your choice.
A Toyota Highlander is a good place to start.
They are as good as any.
Do not be overly alarmed by what you read here.
Remember--only the ones who have an issue (or think they have) are the ones who make the loudest noises.
If you peruse this topic in its entirety, you will find there aren't that many who complain about the hesitation issue.
The vast silent majority are the ones to really listen to--only problem is they don't make much noise!
Obviously, they have no need to.
I've only posted here once before about my wife's 04 RX330. (Really, just a gussied up V6 Highlander so take heed in your decision) The car is absolutely beautiful, fairly quiet and very comfortable, but in stop and go traffic it's shifts much worse than the 93 Explorer it replaced. On the highway...no complaints plenty of power, smooth and quiet...getting on to that highway...better cross your fingers and pray or wait for enough space if your coasting around 20 and need to hit the gas it will not respond for at least 1 sec.
With today's technology no car should do this let alone a $40K Lux SUV
It will soon go in for its 10K oil change will investigate the TSB then.
Good luck with your decision.
"I also have an '05 HL V6 AWD and have noticed the "hesitation" only very slightly; and I find I am already, after 3 months of driving, pretty much used to the feel of it.
I can only add this comment - I test drove a number of other 2005 makes (Murano, Mazda6 to name two) and found the same issue with them. Reading other forums on different makes also leads me to believe the issue is wide-spread. Most any new vehicle today will have the electronic throttle or drive by wire, thus most any new vehicle will have the issue. I would rather have a Toyota than some of the others. Get used to it, folks. :>)"
This is simply a non-truth which has been discussed numerous times.
I assert, if everytime you applied the gas the vehicle hesitated with the same exact delay - a human could eventually learn to compensate for it to some greater or lesser extent, but it would collide with very low-level cause and effect learning which the brain of the operator has accomplished (starting with other activities as an infact including of course years, no probably decades, of driving with countless accelerator activation and response cycles in other vehicles).
I also assert it could be extremely dangerous from the standpoint that unpredictable hesitation would jeopardize other mental processing such as distance / speed / timing estimation which the brain performs, some of it based on this prior learning. It is also unsafe in that the hesitation in certain contexts can cause the operator to spend precious time reconciling the discrepant response.
I also contend it may also be unsafe (even if predictable and repeatible) as it collides with the mental models of other drivers... In some contexts, the system must extend beyond 1 car, 1 driver. Remember, other drivers are also constantly estimating distance / speed / time; assessing intention and capability.
This sort of thing isn't conscious. It happens at a very low-level. Have you ever driven to someplace familiar / routine (like work) and had the thought at some point - how did I get here? And dealing with the discrepant, constantly being vigilant to compensate for behavior that doesn't fit pre-learned mental model takes time; extra mental effort and can disengage you from the activity at a most critical time.
When there is this sort of disconnect, how the "system" (car, driver, other drivers) will perform is a bit of a dealer's choice.
Any way I look at it, I cannot accept this was a purposful design artifact by the respected Toyota Engineering community, from a safety standpoint, a performance standpoint, and product acceptance / driving enjoyment standpoint.
I would also advise not overreacting to emotional statements which sometimes appear in these forums, such as: "better cross your fingers and pray or wait for enough space if your coasting around 20 and need to hit the gas it will not respond for at least 1 sec."
With all due respect to those who make such statements, it is obvious they are by far more expressive than necessary, and don't really represent reality. I can understand someone's frustration at what they feel is a problem, and their right to express their frustration, but when the dust settles, reality eventually arrives on the scene.
Good luck in your research, and I hope whatever your decision may be that your expectations are met in every respect..
It is a very impressive intellectuallized analysis of common situations drivers frequently experience.
Your analysis could serve as an excellent legal rationale to describe cause and effect of a variety of other such driver distractions, ie: Using cell phones, smoking, drinking the morning coffee, putting on makeup, irritation with other drivers........and a myriad of other very common distractions we are faced with on the road.
Well done.
We have a '99 V6 Camry. It, too, shifts a little *weird*. But, it always responds when you press on the pedal.
It is nothing like what my '05 V6 Camry is like. My first post on this forum was saying that I noticed funny shifting, but didn't think it was a problem. The car has since gotten much worse. You simply cannot take a test drive long enough, IMO, to be sure that there isn't a problem. I don't know about how other new cars drive -- I was only interested in a Camry based on my previous experiences with the cars. Some have said that it is only present in the V6 cars, not the 4 cylinders.
And don't listen to the malcontent on this board that says there isn't a problem yet doesn't even own one of the cars - Toyota has acknowldeged that there is a problem. Our motivations are clear - we want smooth shifting cars, others are less so.
-mert,
Camry owner, Toyota shareholder.
Webster defines "malcontent" as "actively discontented person".
A good case can be made to show that the real "malcontents" here are those who are "constantly and actively expressing their discontent" with how their Toyota vehicles perform. Please--no offense intended!!
I guess I don't qualify as a malcontent, because I'm perfectly happy with how our Toyota Highlander ( traded the old one on an 05 two months ago!!) performs.
It feels "different" but every new vehicle does to a degree--in our case, it's quite acceptable.
Furthermore I am not advocating that the issue being called a "problem" doesn't exist--never have.
What I am saying, and I believe it's closest to the truth of the matter, is that what is being referred to as a "problem" is, in reality,a designed in "characteristic."
Having said that, I fully realize that some may believe it is a "problem", and have no issues with their characterization of it as such.
If they choose to call it a "problem", that's OK with me.
I also have no issues with their desire to ask for a tranny that adjusts itself for every driving style, and jumps forward instantly when they hammer the accellerator.
If that's what they want, so be it--but chances are they aren't going to get it because the car buying public has demanded something else from automakers.
Yes, Toyota has admitted they are aware their trannys don't meet everyone's expectations--call it "acknowledging a problem" if you wish.
Yes, they are committed to develop a "fix".
I suggest we should be saying "good for them", and also recognize what they are trying to do is well beyond what many other automakers do for their customers.
Nuff said for now.
05 Highlander Owner.
03 Avalon Owner.
04 Silverado Owner.
56 Thunderbird Owner. (Yeah Shifty, I finally found a good one!)
55 Chev Convert.Owner
47 Caddy Convert. Owner
77 Volkwagen Convert. Owner
Jag XK140 Drophead Coupe Owner.
Aerostar Owner.
Not a Toyota Shareholder.
Just a contented Toyota Owner.
Wait a minute--why am I doing this? :confuse:
in contrast, the hesitation impacts and collides with low-level cause-and-effect learning and cognitively loads the operator when the discrepant hesitation occurs. the loading or tasking which occurs because of this is very very different. also, unlike those other behaviors you mention, the hesitation is not the choice of the operator, infact quite the opposite (unless of course - one, if fully aware of the situation, decides to go ahead and purchase the vehicle anyway).
My position on it is, simply put, that a distraction is a distraction is a distraction.........regardless of its origin!
Claiming the hesitation is a unique distraction tantamount to instant destruction is to completely ignore those far more serious, self induced distractions we all create for ourselves each and every day.
I mentioned just a few, but you and I both know there are literally dozens more examples.
Regarding the hesitation issue itself, I have maintained all along, and continue to do so, that it doesn't qualify as a safety hazard--In spite of the smoke being blown at it by the resident peanut gallery.
All the hypothetical/fictional doom and gloom scenarios these folks create here are miniscule compared to the risky (and sometimes really dumb) things we all do behind the wheel of our precious vehicles.
More to the point though--without confirmed accidents, a vehicle could only be described as "potentially" dangerous, not actually dangerous. And if the accidents don't roll in after a while, the potentiality goes down accordingly until it eventually hits the somewhat more benign realm of "really annoying".
You said it best. I think people have been posting somewhat inflammatory statements without providing any substantive evidence as to the danger of the transmission problem.
For me driving with this hesitation is like driving with someone randomly covering your eyes for a second. No problem on an open clear road but not cool during a lane change.
Former Camry owner
65 Cutlass conv. owner (complete with hesitating 4 barrel carb)
56 Chevy owner
64 Volvo p-1800 owner
2000 Acura TL owner (replaced the Camry)
I'd be interested in buying your P1800 if or when it might ever be available--provided of course it's in decent shape. I'm looking for one in show (or close to) condition, and I'm willing to pay a fair price..Rust was a huge problem in that marque, but they were (and still are) a very attractive little sports car.
Now, back to topic.
Re your post--a couple of questions.
(1) What do you consider "a significant number of people", and what number do you have in mind in that respect?"
(2 Would it be fair to say the the term "annoying" means different things to different people?" (Example: What might be annoying to one might not be to another)
Trying to be dispassionate about it, and taking ten deep breaths, I got to thinking if I heard someone insisting that cars were (my words) "death traps" because of this problem, I'd have to say this was in fact hyperbole of a high order. But I don't mean to downplay the irritation one must feel with it, or in my case, the disappointment I would feel having a new car do this now and then.
I agree that would qualify as hyperbole in the highest order--if not downright irrational.
I'll buy "irritation", but categorizing it as a "potential" safety hazard--no way.
Talking on a cell phone (or similar act) while driving--that is clearly a "potential" safety hazard.
A momentary (ie 1 second) hesitation condition doesn't come anywhere near that category.
I will also apologize to everyone for the diversion and return to the topic.
if you did, it's unlikely it would be reported to the mass-media and searchable by us.
on qualifying danger: if i were to tell you there's a live un-insulated wire in that pond in your back yard, but we know to date no one's gotten shocked or died yet because no one's waded in - would that be qualified as dangerous, "potentially dangerous" or "annoying"? and to whom?
and if someone did have an accident as a result of wading into that pond of yours, do you think it would receive national attention? how many reports of people getting shocked in ponds when someone is running extension cords to a dock (or what have you) would be needed for you to operationalize the fact that water and electricity don't mix.
there may very well be safety problems all around you...in your very home, school or place of employment, with products you use, etc. don't fool yourself into believing you will recognize them all and you by yourself are in the best position to assess risk. some risks will be visible to you and some will not. some will be easy to comprehend, and others...noone's considered yet.
with complex systems it's not likely your user model is complete enough to understand the engineering / designer's model.
IMHO there is nothing inflamatory about anecdotal postings of people indicating they attempted to merge, or turn, or pull into another lane and their vehicle hesitated 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0 seconds (whatever), and they felt unsafe.
what sort of reporting do you expect? what would constitute credible?
let's say a person's family is involved in a vehicle accident because of the hesitation. would 1 accident reported suffice? 5? 10? 100? 1000?
what constitutes substantive evidence of danger?
really.
As for getting T-boned by oncoming traffic while making a left turn, if one-second was all the slack you had, that's probably your fault (in the eyes of the law) as well.
so the idea of hesitations "causing" accidents sounds a lot like (to me) "my dog ate my homework", in that there is no responsibility allocated to the driver; however I am fully prepared to sympathize with and believe anyone who is irritated, annoyed, disappointed, or made anxious by this apparent defect in their transmission's behavior. I would be too.
I'm a believer now---not in the safety claim, but in the defect. I've asked around, and there is something "real" going on out there. What, how bad, how often....I don't know....
There is something there that wasn't in the old Highlander or in our Avalon.
The new one "feels" different, "shift" interval is different, and the vehicle responds different. Not a whole lot, but it is "different."
No two or three second delay under any circumstances, although under some conditions there will be a momentary (I estimate a half second or less) delay.
That delay is noticeable, but not something I think anyone would be concerned about.
I'm certainly not concerned about it in any way. It's negligeable. And it hasn't changed since new.
While looking at the new ones a while back, my wife and I (It's really hers) test
drove 4 different HLs over the span of one week.
They were all the same--and I was rigorous in trying to find any problems. There were none, and they all felt or handled the same way--"different" from what we're used to..
We've only had one problem with the new one--during the first week of ownership we discovered the driver's side heated seat was inoperative.
The dealer replaced the entire assembly with a new seat--no questions asked.
So I hold to the news I received from my friend--that's the way these trannys are designed to work.
As far as I'm concerned, until I see or experience the so called "defect", my mind won't change.
Please.
This is not meant to diminish in any way the feelings and expressed sentiments of those who believe otherwise.
Being hit from behind is not always "their" fault. In WA you must be in the travel lane long enough to "claim" it. Swerving over into a travel lane while still going below the appropriate travel speed would qualify you for a citation here in this state.
Where is the gas tank located on the various versions of the Toyota FWD V6/5-speed series? Not like the old Ford Pinto I hope.
Shifty the Host
Thanks again for all the comments
Please delete my posts #'s 1462 and 1463 as well.
The messages have been sent and I'm certain all involved are aware.
Neither of the posts are germaine to the topic, and I don't wish to cause any further
embarrassment or hard feelings to anyone.
Thanks.
I took a V6 HL for a test drive again yesterday and got on the onramp for the freeway, directly behind a large truck. By the time actually entered the freeway we were only doing about 30 mph. The other lanes were clear so I punched it and the car zipped out immediatly from behind the truck and I was doing 65 in no time. Thats about as aggressive as my driving gets so i think I would not have a problem.
Thats only of course if my earlier assumption of possible random flaws is incorrect. Since Toyota's biggest claim to fame is Quality, consistency and reliability I cant help but wonder.
Toyota has acknowledged that certain vehicles have:
* downshift lag when accelerating at speeds from 10 to 20 mph
* gear hunting when driving on/off accelerator pedal at 20 to 30 mph (i.e. rush-hour traffic)
* slow response rate during heavy acceleration from a stop
That is a FACT. It says so in the TSB, which I assume you have read.
Whether you want to say it's a "design feature" or a "problem" or a "defect" I could care less.
Toyota does not spend the effort to research and develop a TSB if there's not a significant number of people complaining. They just don't. It doesn't make business sense.
I drove a 2004 Explorer last week off & on. Apparently Ford isn't "designing" jerky shifting into their transmissions.
I drove a 2005 Highlander last week, Apparently Toyota isn't "designing" any jerky shifting into their transmissions..
And I have read every professional review I can find and the transmission is always described as smooth and even sometimes very smooth. So it would seem to be a flaw that only affests certain random transmissions.?
I am in no way berating those who are unhappy with their cars. For me, it is a non-issue. I have gone on record as thinking about having the TSB performed, just to have the "latest and greatest" but I am now 90% sure I will take the approach, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"
To sum up my feelings, I believe that if you are happy with the (long) test drive, than you will be happy with the way the trans shifts upon many miles of happy ownership.
Jeff
PS Edit...If you want to drive one with a VERY smooth tranmission, drive the Hybrid Highlander! It has a CVT (continuously Variable Trans) that has NO "speeds" and is EXTREMELY smooth, but at a significantly higher price of entry.
Mine didn't show up until after 1500 miles. It might've been because I was 'babying' it for the engine break-in.
I propose we start calling this:
The Thing That The TSB Describes
mert2: Mine doesn't do this, and I have a friend with an 05 bought in Feb 05, and his doesn't either. I still contend it is a driving style/perception thing. I am sorry that you have a distaste for your vehicle.....
I am in this forum because i am an auto enthusiast, and feel that i can add some valuable info to this and orher forums gained from my many years of experience. I have owned over 50 cars....
The randomness of the actual circumstances of the occurance suggests a component, or components not being quite within operational tolerance in maybe 5% (a random guess) of vehicles shipped.
That may be an argument that non-aggressive, hesitant, driving might be a part of the circumstances. That's also what the TSB seems to indicate.
But the "acid test" was when my 17 yr old daughter drove it while practicing for her driver's license. Anyone who has ever driven with a new driver has probably experienced their (overly) cautious nature. As we drove around neighborhoods she would get the hesitation at nearly every corner! She was certainly not driving aggressively, she was barely moving the accelerator. But it happened that she was in the coast down mode, in the right speed range and she barely pressed down on the pedal...all of the conditions necessary to make this hesitation appear.
It was so disconcerting that we eventually decided that she needed to practice in one of our other cars.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05036/453222.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04345/424551.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04343/423383.stm
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05084/477261.stm
Not the Highlander, but describes the problem in other models with the same 5-speed auto transmission:
Camry http://www.acarplace.com/reviews/2005/camry.html
“Indeed, the transmission tended to have a substantial delay before downshifting when faced with sudden throttle changes, resulting in a condition not unlike turbo lag. This could be disconcerting when moving from a stop sign onto a busy, fast street or highway.”
Lexus RX330 http://www.toyoland.com/lexus/rx330.html
“The 3.3 liter engine from which the RX330 presumably takes its name is fast in sprints, but since it makes most of its power only in at higher speeds, there can be a fairly long lag before acceleration, since the transmission has to downshift. Given the transmission's preference for staying in higher gears as often as possible, and the delay between hitting the gas and downshifting, this means that the RX330 often does not feel responsive on the highway
http://motorway.chicoer.com/Stories/0,1413,310%257E32291%257E2149282,00.html
“But in the test car, occasional, clumsy-feeling upshifts were felt by passengers. There were enough of them during my test drive that I wondered what had happened to the silky-smooth shifts that I had so enjoyed from the predecessor ES.
ohres, "Toyota Sienna Owners: Problems & Solutions (2004+)" #1676, 6 Aug 2005 10:21 pm