Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
it is certainly one second too much for every other manufacturer and for anyone valuing their safety and the safety of their passengers.
By reading your post, it appears the arbitrator's decision was based on "insufficient number of attempts" for the manufacturer to correct the problem.
Definitely bring it in for whatever fix Toyota has for this problem. Even though the Toyota rep states the TSB won't fix the problem, just bring your car in and let them do the work. I think you need more documentation that states Toyota has worked on your car but cannot remedy the problem. Afterall, it won't cost you anything to bring the car in. (I have a similar arbitration experience with VW. However, that's a more serious problem because the engine burns oil. The TSB came out right before the arbitration. I decided to postpone the arbitration so VW can apply the TSB. The result? Car still burns oil. I had a stronger case and won the arbitration.)
I already got rid of my toyota under a different route :lemon: and I don't post here too often. But I truly hope you can win. I know the feeling too well when the car hesitates. Keep pursuing and don't let those people (for example, the arbitrator) who have never experienced the hesitation in life-threatening conditions deter you.
You do us all a service to keep the pressure on Toyota to fix the underlying problem. Thanks!
I recall a time when my bother-in-law took his infamous diesel Olds of the 1980's in to be fixed. After one failed attempt to get the problem fixed by GM, he had the car converted to a gas engine, and then went to arbitration to get GM to pay for the conversion. I recall he lost the case because he had only gave GM one chance to fix the problem. Had he gone in several times or to several dealers, the outcome may have been different.
I wish you luck!
BetterSafe (than Sorry)
It sure does seem that modern vehicles are getting so complex, so computer controlled that "mere mortals" have a hard time figuring out what is what ! In my experience with computer programming there is a universal truth: "The hardest problem to fix is when there is more than one problem ! " The interactions of engine knock, throttle position sensors, transmission hardware and ECU computer control bewilder my mind.
I'd like to hear from others if there is a correlation between the hesitation and lower octane gas. I will post the same request on the Avalon forum.
BetterSafe
This is like being held back by someone until they decide to let you proceed. It's that pronounced. My 1st new car too, what a bumout. Performance wise, my 97 2.2 liter Camry kicked this things a**. I won't even go into all the rattles this new one has...which of course the dealer didn't hear when I brought it in.
It looks nice and the suspension rides nice and that's about it. Oh yeah, and the engine knocks on brisk acceleration too (w/ 92 octane).
-Chris
post# 781
donx, "Engine Hesitation (All makes/models)" #1036, 14 May 2005 11:50 pm
Now our Toyota is a dream car to drive.
When enough people hear about the fairly-new TSB, and that it has a better-than-even chance of reducing or eliminating the lag, the lines will form. Another factor is that most Dealer Service writers still know little or nothing about the worthiness of this "fix" - when it becomes a tool that will solve their problems (dissatisfied customers), then they'll promote the TSB.
I'll also postulate that, for every person posting here, there's another dozen that only read it and NEVER post.
As for me, I still am intrigued by this whole thing, and want to see how the "fix" unfolds. Keep posting, bkinblk and the rest of those working with the problem, and I'll keep reading.
Perhaps because they don't have any of these alledged problems??
One wonders--especially since there really aren't that many people posting here--it seems to be pretty much confined to the the same few regulars.
Taking your quote to another level, it could be just as easy to postulate that for every person posting here there are many thousands who have NEVER experienced the alledged problems at all.
I do, however, agree completely with your philosophic observation about the universality of Whining and Complaining these days. A national pastime, n'est-ce pas??
What intrigues me about this whole thing is the fact that so much is being made of so little. I find it curious that a mere one second of hesitation requires this magnitude of weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth.
Regardless, agree 100% that a 1 sec delay can be hazardous in a number of situations. Worse yet, some are experiencing even longer delays.
If you knew what it meant Scoti, chances are you would have to be liquidated.
(Just kidding. V1 is a critical speed in an aircraft, and 210 is the model of my former aircraft--a Cessna P210.)
Wwest, I upgraded to an Aerostar three months ago! Ever fly in one? You can see mine by Googling "Aerostar C-GBVB". It's now registered in Canada- for the second time in its history.
Oh, and a one second delay hazardous? Only in your imagination!
Furthermore, some claim longer?? Surely you don't believe that's factual. The internet is notorious source of fiction, as you are undoubtedly aware of.
Hundreds or thousands?? One might wish it so, but that doesn't make it so.
Please quote your source of this information.
One second only an average??Sometimes it's annoyingly more?? Do you have statistics to show this is true?
If so please publish them.
And I will also say that had it ever happened just after V1 or thereabouts I may have still tried to abort the takeoff. But you can be sure that the memory of the incident would be quite firmly embedded and NEVER forgotten.
So before you again denigrate someone for whining and complaining about a one second engine delay first try your best to put yourself in the correct "shoes".
One second can feel like an eternity.
Just want to see if this thread is being promoted in other Manufacturer's board. I want to know why I only see people with Toyota/Lexus complaining about the hesitation.
Also, when a manufacturer comes out with a TSB, does it mean the manufacturer recognized there's an issue and trying to fix it? Would they spend all the money to come out with a TSB when there is not a problem/issue?
Thanks.
Also, on another point, it is getting tiring to hear (again) someone implying that reports of hesitation are "fiction". Can the host do something about this?
denny, "Transmission problems with Lexus ES-300 ?" #787, 28 Jul 2005 11:58 pm
I think you may be overreacting to a little skepticism--and I think the Host (and you too) must agree there should always be room for a measure of skepticism in forums like this one.
For the record (once again), I believe what we're hearing from Bkinblk about a one second delay is real, and it has apparently been confirmed at his Arbitration.
I've already said as much, and I've previously acknowledged that the condition being talked about exists --for some owners.
Having said that, I think a one second delay--most would call it momentary--is most likely typical of what's being complained about.
I also believe this is what the TSB is directed at, and that Toyota issued it as a customer satisfaction initiative for those who are concerned about it.
TSB's are not indicative of general "across the board" issues--they are intended as a guide for dealers to address technical issues which crop up from time to time.
If the hesitation issue was an "across the board" problem, a formal recall would be issued. Hesitation is not "across the board", as you and others have frequently stated..
In my opinion, and I stand by it, a momentary delay of that amount isn't really much of an issue, but I do accept that some might feel differently and want it changed. That's what a TSB is for.
As regards this amount of delay being a safety issue--there's just no way this is true in spite of efforts to the contrary--and I remain convinced and have stated as much repeatedly.
I am also skeptical as well, of some reports claiming more than one second, ie, two or three second delays--I feel those claims are (in politically correct terms for your benifit Scoti) somewhat embellished--and if you read my post again, you will note this is what the remark about "fiction" was directed at.
I hope this puts your mind at ease.
"If the hesitation issue was an "across the board" problem, a formal recall would be issued."
What if the issue is truly "across the board" but Toyota as yet does not have a viable solution?
And I could readily see the "hesitation" lasting as long as 3 seconds in some instances. First, I think the shop manual indicates that it takes 1.3 seconds to shift from neutral to drive, does it not?
We know that this tranaxle series will upshift during coastdowns when the throttle valve is completely closed and the idle air bypass valve is providing idle air flow. So if I am "coasting" along a freeway entry ramp waiting for an opening and then depress the throttle just slightly to accelerate it is extremely likely the the engine/transaxle ECU will begin a downshift sequence. And remember that the only feed back provided such that the ECU can tell the shift has completed is to compare the input turbine speed to the transaxle's output speed.
So the transaxle now completes the downshift, back into the same gear it was in just prior to the one it was in before coastdown, and now maybe the ECU begins to "crack", open, the throttle valve. But now the knock sensor(s) begin to indicate that the engine is still "lugging", pinging.
Ops, another downshift....
2 to 3 second delay is not so out-landish.
If the engine knock sensors are indeed "players" in the issue of this engine hesitation symptom, as would now appear to be the case with Toyota/lexus' recommendation that the use of premium fuels will help to alleviate the problem, then that would certainly explain the complete randomness of the occurances.
I have travelled around the US enough to know that even the highest level premium fuels can vary from a station in one area to a station, of the same brand, not too far away.
new calibration ID #34876000
which spells out the problems with the HL 04/05 tranny.
I have 04 HL with the crummiest shifting tranny since birth.
Before I bring my HL to Toyota would like to hear of any sucessful upgrades.
Obviously Toyota has finally admitted to a poor shifting tranny.
And yes, the vehicle is moving forward, but still in the previously "commanded" coastdown mode, until the engine/transaxle ECU finally "decides" what gear the transaxle should be in, shifts it into that gear, and then releases the throttle valve servomotor.
I'm beginning to wonder if desensitizing the knock sensors might be a good trial solution.
Regional and/or brand fuel quality can be quite random, and that might account for the seeming randomness of the engine hesitation symptom.
It is my experience that if an engine has any tendency to knock, due to fuel or, during an attempt to accelerate will be the most common time.
I would think a Host would know to review a thread's history before asking these type of questions continually....
But no.
You've been cruising along on a service road and now you come to the acceleration lane for freeway entry, but with lots of freeway traffic. So your release the gas pedal, start coasting down, to wait for an opening.
In coastdown the transaxle upshifts to extend the coast distance, helping fuel economy and/or to alleviate the potential for loss of control on a FWD vehicle due to engine compression braking on what is potentially a slippery roadbed surface. Probably even adjusts the VVTi, intake plenum, and ignition timing to the appropriate coastdown position/setting.
Long ago the engine/transaxle ECU has "learned" the proper ignition timing for all "normal" situations so the timing, etc, is what it is.
But now the driver decides to GO for that upcoming break in traffic, the the gas pedal in partially depressed.
A perfect "match" for the slot involves a bit of gas pedal on and off, back and forth, modulation in order to be up to the correct speed to blend into traffic. As a result the transaxle ends up inappropriately in a higher gear than what is actually required, frankly the engine lugs and pings/knocks.
Now the transmission "wants" to shift into the next lower gear but with no pressure accumulator within the transaxle's hydraulic pump pressure system there is no pressurized fluid for the next shift, it was used up during all of those un-necessary previous upshifts and downshift as you "dithered" the gas pedal.
So now the engine/transaxle ECU must first fully close the pressure modulation solenoid, HARSH shift upcoming, and provide a delay until the engine turns enough times, at idle, to rebuild pressure.
The WILD CARD!!!
Regional and brand variations, totally random, in fuel quality.
My best, latest GUESS.
Wwest, without a doubt, you're the best "what if" guy around!!
With your talent for diagnostics, you should consider the medical profession as a second career.
all that toyota service reps are saying is "it's normal...they all do it".
somebody has to advance some theories so that it can be discussed, and we can consider if the observations being made fit or fail to fit the model being proposed.
it's probable this isn't wwest's "final answer"... but you and the rest of the regulars already knew that.
It's so much better the other way around.
In the meantime, don't fall over the edge..
Well, it works for me!! Shifting is smoother and there's a split second of hesitation just like any other automatics that I've driven in the past. I'm very happy with the results. Noted--prior to bringing in the HL for service, I've filled up on super unleaded for two weeks as suggested by wwest. But using premium before the TSB didn't work. I've started to use regular unleaded again, and so far, so good, hesitation is minimal.
btw, I love this forum!! I've been following the hesitation issue in Edmunds very closely, even before "Engine Hesitation" forum was created.
Regardless of the naysayers and Toyota shills, These trannys shift like they have molasses for hydraulic fluid. My friend just bought a 2005 Camry, he has the same complaint. These are across the board problems, with individualized recognition. Thanks to this forums like these, Toyota has owned up to the poor shifting and has issued the TSBs. However the only ones who will benefit are those that are aware of the problem and take the time and effort to research it.
Problems with products always occur, What makes the difference is how these
problems are handled.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I also think that the duration of the delay is variable, so those experiencing very short delays (less than a second) do not recognize this as a problem.
I can't fix or understand any car after 1995. I gave up trying to keep up, so you might as well explain that Lexus transmission to your dog for all the good it'll do me.