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You could be getting 39 MPG in a 2007 camry hybrid and get all the luxury of your TDI. It does not take premium fuel. :shades:
http://www.airhybridblog.com/
As a result of this breakthrough design, and verified through the most sophisticated computer modeling available today, the Scuderi engine is expected to:
• Improve fuel efficiency in today’s gas and diesel engines by almost one third
• Emit 80 percent less toxic emissions than today’s gas and diesel engines
• Enhance the performance of hybrid engines
• Provide significantly more power than a conventional engine
• Be easy to manufacture because it utilizes the same components found in today’s engines
quote-On this, Dr. Wolfgang Bernhard, Chairman of the Volkswagen brand, said "The ’Alternative Powertrain Study’ is testament to our intensive and global commitment in the area of economic engines. And this innovative strength continues to have an impact, via our range of TDI vehicles. No other manufacturer has sold more diesel cars in the United States and that upward trend continues."-end
No VW Diesels in 2007
Some would argue the luxury statement. I know you will get a lot of arguments on the handling comparo between the Jetta TDI and TCH. The killer for me is resale. All you have to do is look to see what hybrids are bringing after they have 75k on the clock to know they are not holding up against even the other Toyotas. I just did a check and several 2002 Camry's with 90k plus miles are bid higher than a 2002 Prius with 75k miles. The Prius cost more to start with and depreciated faster. With Hybrids you buy high and sell low. Not my idea of a wise choice in vehicles. The blue book is totally not showing the true sales picture on hybrids past 75k miles. Fear of the unknown.
PS
If you are an average driver you will get about 36 MPG in the TCH.
as to the "luxury" comment - I drove one this weekend, and I find the level of luxury in it to be good enough. It ain't an Audi interior, but it's way better than what you'd expect from Toyota.
I was surprised by the drive of the Camry. I expected to dislike it, but I was sold on it.
You are not alone. A lot of people like the Camry. I personally liked the last generation better than this one. That is personal preference. I am generally not turned on by most of the newer cars. Too low and poor visibility.
I would suspect given the trials and tribulations of Ford GM and DCB products (other than some light truck and previously SUV products) that it is indeed important to those in that market. Conversely given the sucess (with one component being good to EXTREMELY good resale value) of Toyota, Honda, it is another MARKET indicator of most in the market; of the importance of resale value.
But anyone who thinks hybrids are a "buy high sell low" proposition is just W-R-O-N-G.
I got $17K for my 2004 HCH after buying it for $19,324 and driving it 24,000 miles in 23 months. My co-worker neighbor just traded his 2005 Prius with 28K miles that he had paid $27K for and got $23K for the trade-in.
The "fear of the unknown" is not a "real" phenomenon with the hybrids, it's just manifested and propagated by the hybrid naysayers.
My take is the resale value of diesels at worst is probably not much off topic.
..."The 2002-2003 was the best rated mileage cars. I have a friend in Boise that just sold a 2002 Jetta TDI for $18k. It had 76k miles on it"...
..."I got $17K for my 2004 HCH after buying it for $19,324 and driving it 24,000 miles in 23 months. My co-worker neighbor just traded his 2005 Prius with 28K miles that he had paid $27K for and got $23K for the trade-in.
But anyone who thinks hybrids are a "buy high sell low" proposition is just W-R-O-N-G."...
I am glad you are starting to put figures; as it can serve as a better basis for comparison and subsequent discussion.
So if I can comment on the 2002 Jetta TDI sold for 18k and had 76,000 miles. While Gagrice did NOT quote the purchase price or months or years held, I bought a 2003 for $18,000. So in effect, (using projection and discounting the likelihood that the 2003 probably sold for MORE than a like 2002) the COST of ownership (or more specifically depreciation) per year was ZERO (18k-18k=0/76,000 miles=0 ), .00 per mile, TDI.
The cost of the hybrid you mentioned is 12% or $2,324., this is app a tad MORE than 6% per year (6.275%). Cost per mile = .0968333 cents per mile. HYBRID
Your co-workers neighbors' is 14.81481%, ( -4000/28,000 miles=) .1428571 cents per mile. HYBRID
The math does not support your assertion of him (Gagrice) being just W-R-O-N-G.
Folks of course can draw their own conclusions on the cost of ownership (depreciation) per mile driven.
However, if I can comment, your coworkers' neighbor AND your hybrid experiences are probably better than a so called AVERAGE gasser.
I don't think so. You have pointed to very low mileage hybrids that were sold at a good price. That is not surprising to me. I am saying the curve takes a radical drop at 75k miles. Where non hybrid comparables do not. With diesel the perception is one of longevity. So they maintain high resale long past what may be prudent. I know I would not buy a high mileage diesel under that perception.
I am tracking a 2003 HCH with 58K miles. So far it is only bid up to $6900. Another 2003 HCH with 81K miles that the dealer would be happy to get $8900. No one bidding on that one. Until I see some actual sales on hybrids over 75K miles that are as good or better than their ICE only comparables I will maintain that opinion.
The "fear of the unknown" is not a "real" phenomenon with the hybrids
It would seem that it is very true. At least from those interested in buying a used hybrid.
Please don't tell me you are talking about E-Bay motors !!! Didn't I convince you a LONG TIME AGO that E-bay is not an adequate measure of prices on the car market?
Edmunds TMV. Edmunds TMV. Edmunds TMV. Edmunds TMV. Edmunds TMV. Edmunds TMV.
That is the best way to judge resale prices, because it's based on aCTUAL Dealer sales by real people buying real cars which they DRIVE before they buy.
Not some ridiculous E-Bay "buy this car sight unseen" car selling model.
If you buy new, and you consider "resale" a significant issue, then you are not using your brain. A new car is a BAD economic proposition. So what if you got a new car with good resale. Big deal, you saved 5 grand 5 years down the road. Maybe you should have bought USED on day one and saved 5 grand IN YEAR ONE?
I can afford to take a hit on resale. Anyone who buys new who can not afford to take that hit, should be buying used.
But we've been down this road. I know you guys disagree with me.
I bet diesels don't hold their value quite as well when their supply isn't constrained (which is it in the U.S.). Not that I care. I don't buy a car based on its resale value. Thank god I don't have to worry about a few grand, right now. If I DID have to worry about it, I'd be looking at used cars. Frankly, that's what more people should be doing, but I'm glad they have been brainwashed to buy new, as that stimulates the economy more, I suspect, than buying used. That's just a guess.
Am I right that the Camry Hybrids are being made in the U.S., or is that just the non-hybrid Camry?
Not to question what you can afford, but WHY if you don't have to? Reminds me of the joke about how to make a small fortune in car sales..... start with a LARGE fortune.
The biggest "hit" with a new car is depreciation, right. And that is, of course, intimately tied to resale.
I am not saying we should all buy used. But if you can't afford the depreciation hit, then you should buy used. Or buy less of a car. Don't forget that if a car has good resale value, that is already figured in to the new price, so you ARE paying for it, even if you think you aren't.
I am in a unique position with my next car purchase, as I have two teens who will be good candidates for hand-me-downs for the next ten years, probably. I can drive it for a few years, and then hand it down. Same with the next car. Sure keeps me sheltered from the used car market uncertainties, as well as the horrors of depreciation and poor resale.
..."Don't forget that if a car has good resale value, that is already figured in to the new price, so you ARE paying for it, even if you think you aren't."...
One interpretation might be one is paying much more than one has to for Japanese cars, (per se) such as Toyota Prius, Honda Accord, Civic,etc, etc.??
I would agree with you that depreciation is a major hit with a new car or cars for that matter. Hence the real value added or utility of a web site like Edmunds.com. So indeed if one can get a car at invoice or below, it might be asking a bit much to get a car for less than the cost of manufacture.
I am glad you also agree with my take on a bias toward cars lasting longer than the normal 7-8.5 years. On one that is no longer owed by me, but by another family member it has 171,000 miles and is approaching 17 years old, another has 137,000 miles and is 13 years old, a third is pushing 11 years old. The only real bummer, since 2 still has very high residual value; it still makes sense to fully insure them.
yes, probably true, so if the low resale on hybrids is true, then you are getting doubly scrooged
I can fully appreciate that approach. I also believe in keeping cars till they are no longer running reliably. That is my big question mark with the newer cars. If the new TCH is plagued with rattles and squeaks when you drive it off the dealers lot, what will it be like in 5-8 years. I just don't think the new cars are built as well as those from 15-20 years ago. Too much depends on electronics to keep working. Very expensive repairs will kill most owners once the warranty expires.
The best reason I see for buying with resale in mind is being able to dump a vehicle you don't like after a year or so. If you pay MSRP or above, god forbid, you have a big built-in loss from the start. Do you think that dealer will give you a better trade-in a year later just because you paid MSRP?
Well Edmund's Trade-in TMV almost matches to the dollar the selling prices I am seeing on eBay Motors. Most go unsold because they did not get what they wanted for the car. Until someone comes up with a site that has the price paid for a given vehicle, I will consider those prices paid for vehicles a good indicator of vehicle values. Not prices that rarely reflect reality.
If you sold your HCH to a private party Edmund's was very close to what you got. If you traded it in Edmund's was not even close.
Show me a 2002 Prius with 75k miles that sold for $18k. And I will be convinced they hold their value as well as a VW TDI. Plus, Edmund's was miles off on the price I got for my Passat TDI. I'm glad I did not consider them a valuable pricing tool. I would have given up about $7000 from what they show as TMV. I could have gotten at least 2 grand more if I had waited another couple months to sell.
The couple I sold it to in Prescott AZ just got back from a trip to NY and back. They averaged 37 MPG and cruised most of the time at 80+MPH. They love the car. So I made them happy. If given the choice of having the Passat TDI back or a brand new TCH, I would take the Passat.
I enjoyed the rest of your post, and then I figure out that you are just smokin crack....
:P
I drove the TCH this weekend, and I'm ready to plunk down 30 grand for it. There is no way I'd take your smelly old Jetta with muffin crumbs in the seats for 30 grand, even if it got 45 mpg
maybe if it got 50...but even then.....
The real worth of a vehicle is the price at which it can be turned into cash on the spot, at an auction for example. The auctions are basic capitalism with prices moving with supply and demand. It gives the lowest value of all the comparisons thus it's normally called the ACV ( Actual Cash Value ).
The ACV is a cold number without any hype of any sort, neither the owner's ( It's my baby ), the dealers ( one-owner creampuff ), the prospective buyer's ( Omigod, a lime green hatchback
No other number is worth discussing since all others have too much emotion, pitch and expectation built into them.
For reference Edmunds 'Used Car Trade-in Values' are a good approximation of the auction values ( subject to regional variations ) and thus the ACV of a vehicle.
We've done this comparo before on other forums and there is NO depreciation hit for hybrids vs non-hybrids. It can be shown again.
Auction selling prices for VW TDI's (New Beetle excluded) have been higher than Ebay. It is actually quite amazing and ridiculous how high they currently are.
While this is a personal aside, I would love to get at auction a slug of 2003 VW Jetta TDI's at 2003 Jetta 2.0 pricing. Of course this is wishful thinking at its best. Another is the MB E320-350 TDI at gasser prices!!
Also your post is one of the reasons why I said that the "good" money is (and has been )in the used car trade and not so much the NEW car trade.
It's a tough business when 2 y.o. Corolla's/Civics with 20-30K on them are being bought at auction for $11,000 to $13000 ( depending on condition ) when the invoice on a new vehicle is about 15,500 to $16,500.....if you can find any for sale at auction.
Just for comparison purposes the 'Black Book' values ( 9/18 Edition ) for the 2004 ...
.. Jetta GLS TDI are $15000 - 16500 depending on condition
.. Prius are $18000 - 19500 depending on condition
kcram - Pickups Host
Pre Katrina (week before) throughout the southern states, #2 diesel was app 2.58 per gal. So if projections are correct some pundits predict 2 dollars per gal.
Corner store prices in one of the highest priced fuel states in the nation ((CA) HI being probably the highest)is 2.79 today. Unleaded regular is 2.59. So given my diesel/unleaded regular mpgs of 50/39, that is: per mile .0558/.0664 cents respectively.
I also read that the recent fuel "crisis" and price peaks only affected effected the overall USA petro demand by (- minus) 1.3%. Given the fact that overall USA petro demand grows at app 4% per year, the math would indicate "slower growth of 2.7% !!
This makes sense, IMO. Any car sold in the USA today is so clean that tailpipe emissions are not going to have much an an effect on air quality. Most urban smog doesn't come from newer cars anymore. It might be a good time to focus elsewhere for awhile, and energy independence is a good place to focus on. It's easy for conversations like this to break down into political sniping, but i think most people like the idea of the US not being completely dependant on foreign oil.
Diesel makes 15% more Co2 than petrol per gram burned, but the engines are typically 40% more efficient. So about 30% less Co2 is emitted per mile driven, all other things being equal.
your point?
a lawyer who wins half his cases is a God
if you hit half your 3-point shots in the NBA, you are the greatest shooter ever
Why would you use academics as the measuring stick?
Blame Congress. They are in charge of this issue, not EPA. EPA doesn't get to regulate anything and everything.
where did you get your 49.5% figure?
An interesting vision. You know those plant abatement programs on those so called overgrown parts of the freeways highways, interstates? Instead of letting weeds grow, grow fuel crops and harvest them, then convert them to fuel. I am sure the logistics andrental/royalty, issues, etc can be worked out. Right now weed abatement is almost ALL cost and NO SALES!!!!???
Second, the name calling will stop. Nothing wrong with a spirited debate, but keep personal comments out of it - this is one of the reasons we usually kill political posts here.
kcram - Pickups Host
and I don't want to be crashing into a bunch of corn!!
But more to the point your reaction might show that it (the foreign oil importation) is truly a non real, real problem.
Not al all. The air quality in chicago, for example, has increased dfamatically over the years.. In the 70's the city was typically under a haze.
As long as we're claiming "assertions" that's all i see in your post i'm replying to. Do you really have facts to back up the claim that it's 100% gassers on the "1-800-pollution" lines you speak of?
Why not sue a baseball player if he runs too hard hoping to stop a home run?
BTW I want credits for the trees around my house, they are sucking up all the C02 that everyone else's cars are emitting.
Where does it end? We already know that cows are gross polluters too. That makes me guilty by association when I eat an ice cream cone.
John
First, HAVE YOU READ THE COMPLAINT?
Since I am pretty comfortable assuming that you have NOT, then it's pretty ridiculous for you to comment on something that you know nothing about.
Second, if you DO want to discuss the California case, then can you please define what a "public nuisance" is? OK, since you have no freakin idea, I am guessing it is safe for me to say that you are blowing smoke out your bum.
Next?
Where does it end? I don't know. But it BEGINS with people who do some research and base their opinions on INFORMATION instead of prejudice or the very limited information they have in their skullions.
LOL, I wish we had a list of all the really lame stuff you say. Your position on diesel really loses a lot of credibility when you come out with stuff like this.
what the HECK are you talking about?
it's pretty ridiculous for you to comment on something that you know nothing about.
OK, since you have no freakin idea, I am guessing it is safe for me to say that you are blowing smoke out your bum.
INFORMATION instead of prejudice or the very limited information they have in their skullions.
-end
So nice to be able to have a civil discussion with someone who is polite and rational.
I am not in what YOU have to say about MY comments to someone ELSE. Mind your own business, dude.
I guess that means that I pointed out how stupid your comment was, but that you don't want to retract it.
Point Game Match.
Maybe we should only pay attention to your sentences that make sense, and ignore the stuff that is nonesense?
How are we to tell?
Get off my case.
Mind your own business, dude.
-end :surprise:
Question for you alp8 - Did you ever read the Rules of the Road?
2. Courtesy is mandatory
The Forums insist that users be courteous. We understand that our users are passionate about vehicles, and furthermore that sometimes you are right and someone else is wrong, and worse -- they won't admit it. But remember, ultimately the Forums are about autos not egos.
I guess that means that I pointed out how stupid your comment was, but that you don't want to retract it.
Point Game Match.
Maybe we should only pay attention to your sentences that make sense, and ignore the stuff that is nonesense?
How are we to tell?
-end
Please tone down your hostility.